Quote from: Arduin;701962It was a little over $200k

Actually it was 6k short of 300k. 294k as of close.

So KS took 5% so then that is I believe about 14k gone there.

And I just looked at the FLGS pack. Yes, he knew he was charging the KS retail prices since he offered the FLGS supporters about standard of 40% off the retail price.

That means the books at max cost 45$ and you can bet they didnt cost that much. Possibly as high as 35 all total though before shipping. Its a big book.

So Mark possibly pocketed about 164k minimum after KS by gouging the backers Retail 75$ instead of at least Gross 45$. Unless something is horribly wrong with his production costs then as a game designer and former publisher I am a bit disappointed in Mark. Were it not for the tell-tale of the FLGS I would just assumed it was standard designer not knowing the factors. That is fairly common actually.

Now to be fair. It is possible Mark totally screwed it on printing costs in which case the book could cost upwards of 60$ and he just took a hit to offer the game to retailers.

In the end though its done and more or less over aside from fixing the rules/formatting errors. Good game. Poor choices made in production.

Quote from: Omega;702425Actually it was 6k short of 300k.

I'm not talking about gross receipts on KS.  I'm also adding in orders he took after K.S. but before delivery of product.

And you two are calculating all this without once pulling your heads out of your asses, an astonishing feat in the annuls of Gross Conceptual Error.

Quote from: jeff37923;702555And you two are calculating all this without once pulling your heads out of your asses, an astonishing feat in the annuls of Gross Conceptual Error.

No. I'm talking from a small time publisher viewpoint and from working with others on publishing and the baser facts of assembling a book like that. Unless he got totally taken to the cleaners by a printer a 600page book should have cost less than half his retail fee. It has to cost less than half otherwise you are loosing money every sale to a retailer.

And he shows he is aware of the retailer factor.

From there there are a few possible interpretations.
He gouged the backers. "Hey! Other companies get away with it!" is not an acceptable answer.

He got gouged by the printer. If he has no experience with the publishing side of the production then this could be an acceptable answer.

He is willingly taking a hit at retailer level. Which is a perfectly acceptable answer as it appears to be a small group rather than a straight up one. Others have done that too.

He really did not know better. "Wait? You mean we could have printed the book at half the cost for the same quality?" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

With a simple 5 minute search I had two printers who should have been able to do a book that size and probably equal or better quality for about 48$. One that could have done it for 24$ but not sure on quality. And that after being out of the publishing biz since 2000.

Quote from: jeff37923;702555And you two are calculating all this without once pulling your heads out of your asses, an astonishing feat in the annuls of Gross Conceptual Error.

Pretty much, and not conversant at how business is done. Though Marc did pile on a bunch of extras in the Kickstarter. Next two books I have heard talked about is a players manual and an adventure called the Galaxiad set in the Far Far Future.

Quote from: Omega;702687No. I'm talking from a small time publisher viewpoint and from working with others on publishing and the baser facts of assembling a book like that. Unless he got totally taken to the cleaners by a printer a 600page book should have cost less than half his retail fee. It has to cost less than half otherwise you are loosing money every sale to a retailer.

And he shows he is aware of the retailer factor.

From there there are a few possible interpretations.
He gouged the backers. "Hey! Other companies get away with it!" is not an acceptable answer.

He got gouged by the printer. If he has no experience with the publishing side of the production then this could be an acceptable answer.

He is willingly taking a hit at retailer level. Which is a perfectly acceptable answer as it appears to be a small group rather than a straight up one. Others have done that too.

He really did not know better. "Wait? You mean we could have printed the book at half the cost for the same quality?" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

With a simple 5 minute search I had two printers who should have been able to do a book that size and probably equal or better quality for about 48$. One that could have done it for 24$ but not sure on quality. And that after being out of the publishing biz since 2000.

You forgot to factor in the cost of shipping and handling.

Regardless of which, it is still a Hell of a stretch to go from that to "Marc Miller swindled the Kickstarter to fund his retirement" as Arduin the Troll has claimed.

Quote from: jeff37923;702740You forgot to factor in the cost of shipping and handling.

Regardless of which, it is still a Hell of a stretch to go from that to "Marc Miller swindled the Kickstarter to fund his retirement" as Arduin the Troll has claimed.

Actually I did mention shipping as an unknown quantity. It likely is not 25$ though.

I dont think he swindled the backers. But if the actual cost was at industry standards and he charged retail. Then he did gouge the backers.

For comparison the 3.5e DMG is over 300 pages and retails just short of 30$ for a high quality hardbound. After retailer cut WOTC gets 18$. The book probably cost 6$ to print and 4$ more to ship. (I'm guessing on the shipping)
Leaving 8$ profit Some of which went into production so figure 6$ left.
Now if WOTC sold the book direct and no retailer for 30$ they would be making 18$ a book after production costs. Possibly tripple the profit by making the backer cover retail fee when there is no retailer or fee. Akin to people charging hardback prices for PDFs.

You see it now and then on KS. Sometimes it slips by, sometimes backers just say no.

Honestly I'd rather believe he gouged the backers, intentionally or without thinking, and spun it back into extra product and bonuses. If he pocketed 100k then great.

This rather than the alternative being that he totally botched handling production and just lined the pockets of some printer.

Nobody would think 15 dollars off the cover price as being gouged, that's stupid; esp so in that nobody has a clue how much anything actually did cost.

Quote from: jeff37923;702740You forgot to factor in the cost of shipping and handling.

Regardless of which, it is still a Hell of a stretch to go from that to "Marc Miller swindled the Kickstarter to fund his retirement" as Arduin the Troll has claimed.

Omega is trolling as well, jealous of Marc's success imo. Which is most of the criticism of T5.

Quote from: dragoner;702816Omega is trolling as well, jealous of Marc's success imo. Which is most of the criticism of T5.

I don't try to understand anymore. It just isn't lonely at the top, there are hundreds of griefers out there nibbling at a man's ankles like minnows.

I think there is some valid criticism for T5, most of it though has not been valid - it has been more along the lines of "Traveller touched me in a naughty place."

Quote from: jeff37923;702837I don't try to understand anymore. It just isn't lonely at the top, there are hundreds of griefers out there nibbling at a man's ankles like minnows.

I think there is some valid criticism for T5, most of it though has not been valid - it has been more along the lines of "Traveller touched me in a naughty place."

Yes there are valid criticisms of T5, but that isn't what is being done, instead it's losers taking shots at Marc; so in fact it just makes everything worse by stopping any real conversation, such as say about the mechanics of the game.

Quote from: dragoner;702814Nobody would think 15 dollars off the cover price as being gouged, that's stupid; esp so in that nobody has a clue how much anything actually did cost.

Sorry, no. We are talking about possibly more than 39$ off the cover price as gouging.
But it depends a-lot on the printing fee.
As said. A baser check with printers got me a few good quotes ranging from the aformentioned 48$ down to about 24$ with some effort or lower quality paper. And If I still had my connections from the 90s I could drop that a bit further without sacrificing too much quality. Shipping and handling of course adds back on.

Now to put this in perspective. A quick quote without any effort got me a 600 page book for the aformentioned 48$. Retail the book would have to cost 67$ just to break even. S&H bumps it up to say 80$ maybee 85$ even.
15-20$ cheaper at rank amature level effort. And since there is no actual retailer cut. That is a 34-39$ profit per book if I priced it at the same 100$ point as T5.

As said. That is just one scenario out of several and if you'd bothered to actually read the post you would have seen I mentioned being perfectly fine with the gouging since it rolls back into more backer bonuses and more product and Mark makes a little or a-lot of profit off it.

Yes it is speculation. But it is speculation based on research and past hands on experience with getting a book out and dealing with all the hassles and quirks entailed.

Am I jealous? No. I expect better from a designer with years of professional experience over me. A nothing like me should not be outperforming him. Mark should be making a big profit off this.

I simply do not agree with making the backers possibly cover retail fee when they should not. Assuming all guesses are close to the actuality. I have allready pointed out there is more than one possibility. I could just as easily be dead wrong.

And at the end of the day you payed your money and got your book. A huge book. Hopefully with some extras. If you are happy with what you got then wether or not you got overcharged is irrelevant for you. You might have even willingly payed that extra just to support a great game designer.

Quote from: Omega;702986Now to put this in perspective.

Yes it is speculation.

I should just leave it at this, but the key here is that your speculation is based on the trolling idea from Arduin that the T5 Kickstarter was done to line Marc Miller's pockets. There is no evidence of this.

Without solid numbers, the rest is just a math exercise.

Quote from: jeff37923;702992I should just leave it at this, but the key here is that your speculation is based on the trolling idea from Arduin that the T5 Kickstarter was done to line Marc Miller's pockets. There is no evidence of this.

Without solid numbers, the rest is just a math exercise.

It is just all a bunch of nothing.

Looks like some kind of "players guide" is in the works.  It's going to have to actually be edited (unlike the T5 book backers received) and not be an unfinished manuscript if T5 is not to die within a year of its launch.