Quote from: Ulairi;1026427I think Amber gets a slide because it was created by the late great Erik Wujcik and he didn't have the attitude that a lot of 'modern' storytelling gamers have about 'traditional' games.

I figured it was Amber's capitalism in miniature stat auction minigame combined with the size of the GM Viking hat that not having any dice gave to Pundit.

Quote from: Ulairi;1026427We can be reductive and I agree with you. I think Amber gets a slide because it was created by the late great Erik Wujcik and he didn't have the attitude that a lot of 'modern' storytelling gamers have about 'traditional' games.

I think Pundits attitudes about these games have to do with his social media and forum wars and less to do with what is actually in the games.

For me, personally, I'm just not a fan of the "scene-editing mechanics.

I own a signed copy of Amber and have read it (a long time ago) but have never played it. I just got it for my collection.

Well, Pundit tolerates other games like Fate which include scene-editing mechanics, so no, I don't think it was a fair review. And yes, those properties of Meta Points are even easier to remove from BoL, because they actually have more other applications;).

Quote from: Bren;1026980I figured it was Amber's capitalism in miniature stat auction minigame combined with the size of the GM Viking hat that not having any dice gave to Pundit.

...however, the more I think, the more I'm starting to suspect that Bren has it right:D!

Sometimes I wonder if the Pundit is just drunk a lot.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1024517The immersion-breaking elements where Players are able to edit out details of the world.

Actual passage of this particular rule  from my copy of the Mythic Edition:

QuoteA Twist of Fate
Where the narrative of a scene has not clearly
defined a certain piece of information, the player
might suggest something that sounds reasonable
and make that suggestion become fact. Use of
a Hero Point in this manner should be at the
discretion of the GM. It shouldn't be to make major
changes in a scene, and can't be used to change
something that has already been determined.

For example, if a character is locked in a dungeon
cell, she could use a Hero Point to find a loose
stone in the wall that she can pry away, maybe to
use to bash the guard over the head when he comes
in to serve her slops.

A magician could use a Hero Point to account for
one of his spell requirements in this way – for
example, if the time of day has not already been
established, he could state "Ah, the hour is perfect
for my conjuration!"

I'm not familiar with the game but I see them using the word "scene" here. Is it common for this game to present the game using movie language?

Quote from: Ulairi;1027686I'm not familiar with the game but I see them using the word "scene" here. Is it common for this game to present the game using movie language?

No.

The term scene is a term specifically used as a technical term within the game:

QuoteScene: A period of time in which the characters
are all at one place for a given duration of time.
A combat counts as one scene, but most scenes
are not combat related. An effect that lasts for an
entire scene will go on until the GM says that the
scene ends. A series of linked scenes make up an
adventure.

So, a "scene" is the unit of measurement for an effect.

There are no other terms (that I noticed) that tie the game's text specifically to "movie language."

QuoteScene: A period of time in which the characters
are all at one place for a given duration of time.
A combat counts as one scene, but most scenes
are not combat related. An effect that lasts for an
entire scene will go on until the GM says that the
scene ends. A series of linked scenes make up an
adventure.

That sounds lot like this definition:

QuoteIn filmmaking and video production, a scene is generally thought of as the action in a single location and continuous time...the term scene refers to the continuity of the observed action - an association of time, place or characters.

Quote from: Bren;1027728That sounds lot like this definition:

Now compare to this definition, from a DMG.

QuoteAn encounter is a single scene in an ongoing drama, when the player characters come up against something that impedes their progress.

QuoteScene: A period of time in which the characters
are all at one place for a given duration of time.
A combat counts as one scene, but most scenes
are not combat related. An effect that lasts for an
entire scene will go on until the GM says that the
scene ends. A series of linked scenes make up an
adventure.

Quote from: Bren;1027728That sounds lot like this definition:

QuoteIn filmmaking and video production, a scene is generally thought of as the action in a single location and continuous time...the term scene refers to the continuity of the observed action - an association of time, place or characters.

Quote from: AsenRG;1027857Now compare to this definition, from a DMG.

QuoteAn encounter is a single scene in an ongoing drama, when the player characters come up against something that impedes their progress.

And here's another word from the world of movies and storytelling:

Character

Where have you pearl-clutchers been for the past 44 years!!!

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;1027867Where have you pearl-clutchers been for the past 44 years!!!

Running and playing RPGs. You?

Very unfair review IMHO, the idea that BOL is a "pretentious storygame rpg" is laughable. BOL is easily one of the best games of the last decade.

Quote from: artikid;1028469Very unfair review IMHO, the idea that BOL is a "pretentious storygame rpg" is laughable. BOL is easily one of the best games of the last decade.

Yeah, pretty much everyone who's read BoL said more or less the same. Sometimes Pundit's Forgyphobia eclipses the better parts of his personality;).

I've not read or played the game. Can someone tell me why it's one of the best games of the last decade? Or why the review was unfair?

Quote from: Ulairi;1029421I've not read or played the game. Can someone tell me why it's one of the best games of the last decade?

Because it's a lightweight game that does S&S better than 2d20 and DCC combined except with half the pagecount:)? And I say that while DCC is my favourite OSR title.
Let me recap.
It's a simple 2d6 game that is created by distilling the S&S genre, and then giving it mechanics. Seriously, sorcerers in BoL act like you'd expect S&S sorcerers to act, even when PCs, because that's how sorcery works - and no, it doesn't include long lists of spells.
And so do assassins, and everyone else.
If you're ever in a mood for S&S, you can get a BoL game running in under 20 minutes, chargen included.


At the same time, it's no more a story game than Warhammer2e, and definitely less of a storygame than any Fate title.
Can't say about "best game of the last decade", but it is the best S&S game out there, most definitely. Well, if you want more crunch, you might look at Mythras, but that's about all the competition BoL has to worry about.

Also, read what Sharps54 wrote. It's a much better review, albeit less technical than Pundit's.

QuoteOr why the review was unfair?

See the whole thread, for a start;)!
Pundit missed that the game is tongue-in-cheek. How he managed to do that, shall remain a mystery to me. Nobody else I know has ever missed that part - and I do know quite a few.
Pundit latched on the fact that there's Hero points...despite having stated that he likes some Fate games, like Starblazer Adventures. Pretty much all Fate games allow you to use them for basically the same things you use them in BoL. Sounds like double standards? Yep, sure sounds that way to me!
Ditto for scenes as a time measurement unit, BTW.

Hope that answers your questions.

Quote from: AsenRG;1029698See the whole thread, for a start;)!.

As a specific point, as I mentioned in this post upthread, The Pund made a statement in his review about how the game works that is utterly contradicted by the actual text in the actual game. Now, the fact that Pund simply makes up statements about games that are flat out wrong is one his hallmarks, so it's not really worth arguing with him about this stuff. But he literally made a statement about how the game plays that is the exact opposite of how the game plays. Anyone who reads the review should be made aware of that. His point is wholly inaccurate.

AsenRG and ChrisKubasik answered for me.
I agree with their replies.
I didn't say "best game'", I said 'one of the best games'.
BOL proved very popular over the years,  at one time Cubicle 7 distributed the previous edition.

Regarding the tone of BOL in play, to me it felt very much like playing an old Savage Sword of Conan comic-book