Hey guys - nice community you have here!  I hate to seem like a shill, and create a review as my second post, but... the final revision for the PDF of the HackMaster Players Handbook went live a few hours ago, and physical printing has begun, so thought it might be a good time to write about the book and system, which seems to have accrued a reputation as being a joke/unserious munchkin-like game.  Rest assured, this most certainly is not the case with the new edition.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am a freelance writer, who has had a deal of material published by KenzerCo for both this and the previous edition of the game.  I am a volunteer editor of the quarterly complimentary HackJournal, and it is my system of choice.  That said, I shall try and justify why I rate it as a 10/10 within this review.

First of all, within the product line, the Players Handbook compliments HackMaster Basic in that it expands the core rules with a good deal of additions, all of which are marked as 'Advanced'.  This core book presents the information necessary to take characters up to level 20 (as opposed to the limit of 5 in the Basic book), as well as offering new skills, classes, races, weapons... and more of pretty much everything.

The default setting is KenzerCo's own Kingdom's of Kalamar, but this is only readily apparent within the Cleric chapter (yes, they have their own chapter), wherein each Church has its own class benefits, drawbacks, and spell lists.  In addition to the core fantasy races, HackMaster includes Gnome Titans (with an inherent Groin Stomp combat proficiency), Grel ('Grunge' Elves, with an attitude the size of Texas), and Pixie-Fairies - each of which adds a unique element to party dynamics.  They may be inspired by the comicbook Knights of the Dinner Table, but they have been fashioned into truly playable entities.

The heart and soul of the game, however, lies in the combat.  And it is because of the complete revision of 'taken-for-granted' RPG mechanics that merits the score I have assigned it.  Combat is undertaken in seconds - not rounds.  There is no waiting around, making every battle a furious free-for-all, where any dithering can create a big problem.  There is a lot to track, but after a little practice even the newest of GMs can get to grips with it, in my experience (the coaching of two players to running their own games ).  Within combat, as with most skill-based elements of the system, hits are determined via a competing dice roll - even low rolls can strike, given the opponent rolls even lower.  Weighed against a 'to hit' chart, this system feels much more natural, and a damned good step forward.  Add a dozen different pole arms, thorough unarmed fighting rules, critical hits, fumbles, combat fatigue, and a bucket load of standard combat maneouvers (such as stab attacks with various weapons - quicker, but less damage); all of these provide so many options that define the game.  As the name implies, the game has always been about the art of the Hack, and the new edition has taken this to the next level.

To address any concerns of 'silliness', as the game is no longer based upon a licensed property (AD&D) which demanded a degree of parody and slapstick comedy, these are done away with.  However, much of the book is written in 'Gary-speak', based upon the fictional Gary Jackson's (again from KoDT) snide mannerisms and attitudes.  Yes, it may mock Peter Jackson in one or two places, and it may mock the type of player who will argue ardently for a second to be shaved off throwing axe aiming times, but it is this dry wit that makes the game fun to read.  It is not a textbook, or a manual, but a guide.  Written to inform and entertain - which is surely the most fundamental aspect of our hobby.

A few of the spells may seem silly on the surface - Silver Ball (which renders the caster 'deaf, dumb and blind' - as per The Who - during the effects), Jumping JuJu,  Skipping Betty Fireball - but what system doesn't have a few quirky spells?

Stats, however, are no laughing matter.  3d6 is the de-facto standard.  Leaving stats as they are rolled will grant a huge bonus in starting Building Points (BP), which are used to purchase a class, skills, talents, proficiencies, and/or re-rolls.  The average stat is 10-11, as opposed to many modern systems, and as a result, the system is a dangerous one.  Each strike (as maximum results penetrate/explode) can be life-threatening, and healing can be slow (a 3 hp wound, left naturally with no assistance, takes 3+2+1=6 days), makes it a game where even a lowly goblin can take out - albeit most unlikely - a 5th level fighter if not played well, and different combat styles taken advantage of.

Kenzer's introduction, which has been posted both in the body text and as an image on the RPGGeek entry, purports to be the most useful introduction ever written, and it may well be.  For it sums up in a number of bullet points more than I can say in this review, and I heartily recommend anyone with even a mild curiosity to check it out.

Sufficit to say, however, that the game is lean, mean and dangerous.  Characters have to fight for everything - nothing is owed to them.  Carving their names into legend is in no way guaranteed - and t is this that makes the game fun.  Power and glory has to be earned, but it is the long and tricky journey to reach it that is of the most interest.

The book was released for sale during Beta stages of development, and has been refined through dozens of fans pouring over every single word, rule, and stat.  The artwork is a mixture of commissioned pieces which are excellent fits (with one or two exceptions), and free-to-use art, typically in the style of the renowned Edmund Leighton which compliment the low-magic vibe of the system nicely.  The physical book, like the Hacklopedia of Beasts before it, will be made of faux-leather, with an inlaid image.  It is hard to sum up the aesthetics of the binding, and the pride one feels just looking at the spine, but I believe the PHB will be identical in this regard.

For me, it is the system of choice.  Flexible, and most fun to write/create for (which is why I do! With hopefully a good selection of new contributions coming soon, if the Development Team like them).  I hope this review does not sound too much like a one-sided argument.  I concede that skill BPs may be a tad high on occasion, the lack of costs for superior weapons (which grant bonuses between +1 to +5, for attack, defense, damage and/or speed, which are all considered non-magical), a couple more classes would have been nice (such as the fan-favourite Battle Mage), and more combat-orientated proficiencies.  But as the product is, I believe it will stand out in any collection.  If in doubt, HackMaster Basic (at $20) presents a gateway into the game, but the Players Handbook represents a fantastic kingdom spread out beyond this entrance.  And it is a landscape I look forward to explore for a long time to come.

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All that said, I look forward to exploring these boards, and hopefully engaging in some good discussion with you.

The combat system is a dealbreaker for me.  It's way too hectic and too much stuff going on at once.  Too bad, really, because I really want to like HM.

Things can get a little hectic without a fair bit of manual tracking - the downside of a switch from turn-based combat.  However, I know there are plans to offer free combat aids to help keep track of rolled initiatives, time until next action, and so on.

My experience is that the GM cannot keep track of the player's timing - and it depends upon them being honest.  But perhaps keep a brief chronology of each combat, in order to to ensure that massive (perhaps accidental) mis-timings are not common occurrences...

Quote from: JRR;526977The combat system is a dealbreaker for me.  It's way too hectic and too much stuff going on at once.  Too bad, really, because I really want to like HM.

Just wondering, have you GMed it for a couple of sessions?

Quote from: greylond;526988Just wondering, have you GMed it for a couple of sessions?

Yeah combat actually hums once everyone is up to speed It's amazing. I'm going to have to post a youtube video at somepoint showing a large group doing a large combat. We've had up to 12 players in combat at once at GaryCon for example and it's an eye opener. Especially the 'not waiting for your turn' aspect.

Biggest hurdle IMO is forgetting what you know/learned from D&D. People can get stuck on the round concept at first.

The classic #3!

I ask because EVERY Single person who I have known to GM it if for more than one session has said that it flows pretty fast for them. I only know one person who has said that he GMs HM4 faster and that is Topher and that is he has a great memory and literally has every chart/rule in HM4 memorized and quote it, at any time...

IME, the only people that say that HM combat is too much info that makes it too slow are people who haven't actually played or GMed it for more than one combat...

So, therefore I asked about his experience with the game, a perfectly valid question...

Sure it is a totally valid question, it's just one that is often used around here to invalidate other people's opinions of just about any game they do not like.

Also you're post above seems to preclude the notion that someone might have tried the game and just not like it. i mean you're talking about "every single person" in caps no less.

Not tryinng to invalidate his opinion. If he has actually GMed it and found it slow and too fiddly then I'd really like to know because he will be the first person to know that about. I know some HM4 grognards who don't like it, but not because it is too fiddly but because it isn't AD&D game mechanics.

To state my experience I'm a HMb alpha tester and have been playing this combat system for over 3 years now. I've run Demos for totally new players(many times) and have discussed it with just about every person who has playtested it(alpha and beta testers). So, yea, if there is a GM who has experience actually running it and found it too fiddly, that is something to take note of...

Another thing that we've learned via experience in teaching it. The new HM Combat sometimes makes people thing it is too fiddly just by reading it, but in this is a system that actually plays much better/faster than it seems like on simply reading it.

So, yea, I'm very interested in people's actual play experience with the system. I am after all a HM Demo-dude...

The Count Up system can be jarring and chaotic, especially when Nat 1's and 20's allow for multiple attacks/ripostes that end up in flurries of action.   Watching a flank collapse though as a Rogue gets in a surprise attack that ends up in a steamroll as more characters become free and can help their "stuck in" friends is a thing of beauty.

Running it couple weeks ago I noticed a couple things that seemed a bit odd.

I get the concept of weapon speed factors but not when combined with one actual second combat increments. One second does not allow for the kind of abstractions that can "assumed" in a combat round.

10 seconds for 1 swing of a balanced longsword is very slow. 5 seconds between dagger strikes?

Shields are very useful which is better than D&D treats them but adding to defense AND DR is a bit much. From a gamist fun perspective, fighting a scrub with a shield as a thief(with dagger) is not fun. If you don't beat the defense by 10 or more you just do 1 point of damage to the shield per hit.

I want to experiment more with the system but these are big flies in the ointment.

Melee is abstracted. The weapon speeds are like classic D&D in that it is assumed that you and your opponent are swinging, blocking and counterstiking the whole time. A system that tried to track each swing, block, parry, and riposte would quickly get bogged down. When your weapon speed comes up is your opening for that one telling blow. That's one of the reasons why a character can specialize in Speed. Also, you have to remember(or realize) that HM characters are roughly half the power level of AD&D/HM4 character. The system is meant for low level characters to be "Low Level" and when a character gets up to 20th level that is equivalent to a HM4/AD&D 10th Level character.

As far as multiple 1's and 20's, I have many times when I GM that I see that and it just flows through.

Quote from: greylond;527329Melee is abstracted. The weapon speeds are like classic D&D in that it is assumed that you and your opponent are swinging, blocking and counterstiking the whole time. A system that tried to track each swing, block, parry, and riposte would quickly get bogged down. When your weapon speed comes up is your opening for that one telling blow. That's one of the reasons why a character can specialize in Speed. Also, you have to remember(or realize) that HM characters are roughly half the power level of AD&D/HM4 character. The system is meant for low level characters to be "Low Level" and when a character gets up to 20th level that is equivalent to a HM4/AD&D 10th Level character.

As far as multiple 1's and 20's, I have many times when I GM that I see that and it just flows through.

I get the abstraction, just not how that fits into ticking off actual seconds. In classic D&D the combat round was filler for the abstraction. GURPS manages to track every blow, every parry, every dodge and it moves very fast.

I don't mind abstracted combat, I just wouldn't have paired it up with a second by second time ticker is all.

Well, at this point the combat system has been played by many groups out there. Being involved in playtesting and a regular on the K&Co forums I get to read/hear about many people's experiences with it and it not only works but is well received.

Basically, from my experience and from what I've read/heard about from multiple sources is that it works, and works very well...