This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls  (Read 5193 times)

Bloody Stupid Johnson

  • Senior Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3366
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« on: July 18, 2015, 10:52:07 AM »
Deluxe T&T is recently finished on Kickstarter, as a backer I have the .pdf so the review is going to be based on that. I can't comment on price for anyone buying this outside the Kickstarter (or remember what I paid, actually, though I've been pretty happy with assorted other pdf goodies they've given out).
Describing what Deluxe T&T is all about perhaps needs giving T&T itself an introduction, given that the system is likely unknown to many.

For those not familiar with T&T, its a very old school game with random chargen, that completely (COMPLETELY) disavows any notions of game balance and has a deliberately loose rule framework. Combat is, to the D&D player, pretty weird - it is side-based with both sides of the combat rolling all their weapon dice and 'personal adds', adding them all together, and the difference going to the loser as damage - no initiative. The game uses only six-sided dice, and while characters start out with stats rolled on 3d6, level increases or magic can eventually raise scores into the hundreds - the game stays simple by not having the multiple layers and 'derived attributes' and just having stat increases, e.g. instead of getting a better 'saving throw' for going up level but still having the same stats, the characters Luck (or whatever) goes up.
T&T being only slightly younger than D&D itself (1975), 'Deluxe' is its 7th or 8th edition (the prior edition is formally called '7th edition', but 6th was skipped). Deluxe is generally similar to the 7th edition, with often subtle tweaks or expansions.  For those familiar with the older versions of T&T, the major innovations it shared with 7E are in the level advancement system (you buy ability increases directly with adventure points, and stats directly determine level e.g. 20 = 2nd level; in Deluxe just use highest attribute, rather than a class-specific score), addition of a Wizardry attribute (fixing the old issue that wizards needed huge STR scores to cast powerful spells), rules for skills ("Talents") and a wider variety of character types.

Deluxe itself departs from 7E in a number of minor areas, as well as expansions (though for the most part it fulfils T&T's goal of being pretty simple to play). The 'specialist' classes (basically characters that are super-powered for a particular attribute) are revamped from 7E, replacing their near-automatic (5+ roll only required) rule with a less over-the-top rule that they double their saving throw dice roll. 'Citizens' are clarified a bit more and get perks within the skill rules (a skill bonus rolled on 2d6, doubles roll up, instead of the normal +3). Warriors get extra dice in combat, although their 'double armour protection' benefit is nerfed by new 'wear and tear rules' ('sword and board' has continued continued to get worse as an option, consequently, while TWF is even better since it lets a warrior get two loads of level bonus dice...).  Berserkers have been re-balanced, losing their personal adds when they start re-rolling doubles in combat. Missile attacks now add their dice to the combat total automatically, with the DEX roll still made only to see if the attack automatically takes effect. Rules for too heavy / too dextrous weapons have changed, spells have been adjusted, monsters and nonhumans optionally lose class abilities, humans get racial abilities (either a do-over on saves or heirloom items). 'Kremm resistance' rule from 7E is out, thankfully, although its now unclear what a Wizardry score does for a warrior, if anything. Saves now fumble only on a 3, not 3-4 (yay!). In my opinion its a mixed bag of slight improvements and meh (though the latter can always be ignored).

Aside from the rules aspect, Deluxe is also a setting book which contains a wealth of background material for Trollworld, including a timeline, maps of the Dragon, Eagle and Unicorn (aka "Maneland", aargh) continents, city plans for the major cities of Khazan/Khosht/Knor, language lists etc. (The occasional nod to the solos appears, like the Dhesiri lizard-men from Red Circle appearing in the monster lists). It also contains a couple of adventures, especially notable being the old solo "Abyss" which helps offset T&T's fatality a bit by allowing characters a chance to return from the dead - not very T&T themed, but very useful. The whole book is also quite well illustrated (largely B&W apart from a colour section).

Overall, I'd recommend Deluxe to existing fans of T&T, or those looking for a fairly loose but easy-to-run and fast-playing system and who have reasonably old-school sensibilities as regarding character depth or mortality. TBH I don't know that I'm likely to play it again myself (its competing with a lot of other games, and I'm more of a rules-medium+ guy, these days) but it does tempt me to pull out a solo adventure or two, roll up a thing, and see what happens.

Spinachcat

  • Toxic SocioCat
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 14805
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2015, 07:00:34 PM »
Most of the upgrades sound like my houserules to 5e. I love how T&T plays, but I'm not seeing a reason to buy the new book.

How are Combat Adds calculated now?

Did they scale back damage dice? That had been a forum talk of 4e vs. 5e for a while.

Are monsters more than just MR scores now? I had been promoting my Trigger 6 rule for activating special abilities for monsters way back when and I wondered if the new edition saw something to make monsters more...monsterous.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 07:02:56 PM by Spinachcat »

Bloody Stupid Johnson

  • Senior Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3366
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2015, 07:11:51 PM »
Same old for the most part. (Well, to 7th).
You get +1 add for each point over 12 in Strength, Dexterity, Luck, Speed.
Unlike earlier editions, low scores don't give 'negative' adds, and the same add values apply to both melee and ranged (instead of double-Dex).
Citizens halve their adds and berserkers lose them when berserking.

Monsters are pretty much the same with just MR, and the option of giving them stats if you want. There is a table of monster (illkin) stat modifiers in there somewhere, a few pages that list individual monster varieties and talks about them some more (looks, habitat, world stuff - not so much game information), and some discussion on monster charisma.

RunningLaser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1240
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2015, 10:47:25 AM »
Would you say it's an improvement over 5.5, or just a sideways move?

camazotz

  • Zodiac God
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 411
    • http://www.lulu.com/camazotz
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2015, 05:09:31 PM »
For those curious, I think if you're on the fence about whether the rules are enough of an upgrade from 5.5, I'll ask if you really want to see some in-depth details and maps of the Khazan/Trollworld setting....as well as lengthy details on the races listed on the Peters/MCallister monsters charts for the first time, a revision of the Abyss solo and a new GM module. That content there is worth the extra investment I feel. But, that said, if you have 7.5 you've pretty much got the core game right there.

EDIT: I'm personally inspired by DT&T to run a GM adventure set in Khazan and featuring Lero'torah herself, Arenas of Khazan, etc.

Bloody Stupid Johnson

  • Senior Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3366
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2015, 08:51:47 PM »
Quote from: RunningLaser;843115
Would you say it's an improvement over 5.5, or just a sideways move?


Its a mixed bag depending on preferences but I'd say a slight improvement overall. Generally easy enough to houserule the few things I didn't like (too heavy weapon rules,missile fire) back to the way it was. I do definitely like the new specialist types in elaborations, and talents, and the setting stuff is very good, if weird in spots e.g. elder elves having massive noses.

DavetheLost

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • D
  • Posts: 1441
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2015, 01:45:37 PM »
I think it offers a substantial expansion over 5.5, and an improvement over 7.5. 7.5 is the version I have been playing most, but dT&T improves on it for the most part.

The 7th edition rule of monster special abilities and attacks being triggered by levels of Spite damage (6s rolled) in combat is no longer in the rules, but is easy enough to house rule in.

There are a couple of sample encounter tabes listing MRs for various creatures, but otherwise information on monsters is pretty much lacking.  Steve Crompton has said that a bestiary is partially written and may see release as a supplement.  I hope it is, I like monsters.

Given the price difference between the pdf ($14) and the softcover ($40 expected with a mid to late August projected release) if you have a previous edition you aere happy with I would recommend the pdf over print.

selfdeleteduser00001

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 528
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2015, 04:54:21 PM »
I grew up on T&T solos, alongside Traveller and RQ so when this Kickstarter came out, I just backed it.

Oddly I have never run T&T and only played a one off con game 30 years ago.

So I shall brush off my solos and jump right in.

Should I actually try it as a tabletop game, folks?
:-|

mAcular Chaotic

  • All Evils of this World
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2263
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2015, 09:13:42 AM »
Having never played or heard much of T&T this review leaves me wondering what Deluxe actually plays like.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

Bloody Stupid Johnson

  • Senior Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3366
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2015, 09:03:29 AM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;843810
Having never played or heard much of T&T this review leaves me wondering what Deluxe actually plays like.

Yeah sorry it was a fairly lazy quasi-review.
To explain more for people unfamiliar with T&T, I guess its fundamentally pretty similar to old-school D&D (0D&D or the like). Kill some orcs, get xp, get some treasure, try to avoid the pit with poison spikes at the bottom. Primarily its intended to be dungeon focussed, though not necessarily - existing adventures have included sea voyages, haunted woods, arenas, the 'City of Terrors', dream quests, etc.
Attributes are random - 3d6, and for 7E if you get triples, add and roll over; dwarves and elves and the like get racial multipliers - e.g. an elf in 7E gets DEX x 4/3, IQ and Cha x 3/2, Con x 2/3, or a Dwarf gets Str and Con x 2, Cha x 3/4 - both of these lowered a little from 5E's bonuses, actually.
You can tell a bit about T&T just by looking at the character sheet (a little ornate by T&T standards...a 5th Ed. T&T character fits on an index card that a 4E D&D player would barely be able to fit one of their powers on..). A character has a class, 8 attribute numbers that do everything, and maybe a Talent or two (two if you started at 2nd level, or are a Rogue).


The game itself only uses d6s, and is pretty simple - most checks use 'Saving Throws' where you roll 2d6 and add your attribute, trying to beat a target of 20 for a standard '1st level' roll, 25 for a '2nd level' roll, and so on (its rare to see a roll above about level 4 or 5). If you get doubles on the 2d6 you add and roll again.  That's the basic mechanic for most non-combat tasks, or shooting things; melee combat works differently in that for that you roll multiple dice for your weapon + your personal adds.
Its very fast and quite possibly the easiest RPG to house rule I know of - easy to add extra attributes, homebrew classes or races, whatever, without the wheels falling off the way they would in most RPGs (I got started in game design as a hobby with rejiggering T&T actually, after getting fed up with 2E).
Because its simple and uses just six-sided dice, T&T had a lot of 'solo' adventures - a bit like Fighting Fantasy books (if you remember those) except that characters would hopefully survive with some loot, XP and stat boosts and work their way up in power across a few books. T&T characters/adventures are mostly compatible across editions so with an old-time T&T group the GM would have to decide whether to let people bring in their man-tiger character with a Monster Rating of 186, sword worth 42 dice or whatnot. Not an issue with all-new groups of course.

In terms of actual play a few things to note about T&T, compared to D&D, would be:

*there's no alignment (or religion - wizards or rogues can get healing spells) - characters are  usually grubby 'murderhoboes'.

*rest cycle is a bit different to D&D in that lost spell points (WIZ attribute) recover per turn, so magic-users who overexert themselves tend to want to hole up for an hour or two, rather than sleeping overnight.

*its potentially very lethal compared especially to later D&Ds. In a mass combat, everyone just adds all their dice together so wandering off alone can be very bad. Situations where you for some reason forfeit your combat dice roll (e.g. surprised) are very bad. Being on the receiving end of magic is usually pretty bad. Failing saving throws is usually pretty bad.  As in 0D&D it is, however, not uncommon to have multiple characters or henchmen/things. Magic is also a bit less arduous than for the pre-5E wizard since its a 'spell point' system, and wizards can wear armour and have the same hit points as everyone else (damage comes straight off the CON attribute).

 T&T is also usually not played exactly seriously (e.g. the solos have places where you end up with see-through armour, win gold from aliens who set up a dungeon to get zombies for mining radioactive ore, or make a shoggoth dance with piccolo music) but that's mostly a matter of how the GM wants to run it.

Hope that helps.

TheShadow

  • Upstanding Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2015, 08:59:44 PM »
I'm just reading through my copy, but really impressed so far. It's a bigger book than ever before, but doesn't feel bloated. That's because it's broken down into a core rules section of 160 pages, plus an optional rules section, information on Trollworld, the 40-year old playpen of Ken St Andre and his buddies (which is FANTASTIC) and some adventures (the new 3 part GM adventure looks excellent).

It is just a riot of the imagination, with brilliant art, much of it by Elizabeth Danforth.

Some just won't get T&T, as ever, because it is fundamentally fast and loose gaming. But it still has that 1970s vibe of Marvel sword and sorcery comics mixed with Middle Earth mixed with Cheetos and magic mushrooms. It really makes my imagination go boom. This time the rules seem better than ever, tightened up, even simplified in some ways (e.g. combat adds) but still the same old T&T.

Instantly one of my top 5 RPG books.
You can shake your fists at the sky. You can do a rain dance. You can ignore the clouds completely. But none of them move the clouds.

- Dave "The Inexorable" Noonan solicits community feedback before 4e's release

David Johansen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • D
  • Posts: 6222
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2015, 09:13:15 PM »
So, it's my understanding that there are now ten schools of magic.  Please tell me there are a whole bunch of new spells to justify this.
Fantasy Adventure Comic, games, and more http://www.uncouthsavage.com

Bloody Stupid Johnson

  • Senior Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3366
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2015, 06:44:01 AM »
Yep - the 10 schools are Clairvoyant, Combat, Communication, Concealment, Conformation (shapeshifting), Conjuration, Construction, Conveyance, Cosmic (reality alteration/misc), and Curative.  
A few new spells but not dramatically more. A quick count up from 'spells listed alphabetically' and it looks like there are 111. A spell sometimes occupies two categories, though.

It suggests some flavour around different colleges, but mechanically I think the main purpose is much like AD&D/3E, to allow for specialist wizards. In T&T you can play a specialist wizard if you roll triples for your Wizardry stat, and they automatically get knowledge of spells from their specialty once they reach the appropriate level (with a specialist I suppose pretty likely to start out at 2nd level, since with triples rerolling their Wiz will often be 20+). They can't use spells outside their specialty though (I'm not sure how that's supposed to work with multi-classed specialists, given that even citizens can use some spells badly).

DavetheLost

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • D
  • Posts: 1441
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2015, 08:55:36 AM »
I think the schools of magic and specialist wizards are a great idea that will require fleshing out in play. Much like the idea of Kindred magics practiced by the various non-humans.

With only 111 spells currently in the game any spell caster other than a generalist is going to want to develop new spells.

LordVreeg

  • S.O.C. Disaster
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3933
    • http://celtricia.pbworks.com/
Deluxe Tunnels & Trolls
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2015, 11:42:51 AM »
Quote from: tzunder;843645
I grew up on T&T solos, alongside Traveller and RQ so when this Kickstarter came out, I just backed it.

Oddly I have never run T&T and only played a one off con game 30 years ago.

So I shall brush off my solos and jump right in.

Should I actually try it as a tabletop game, folks?


Frankly, I did both.

Like you, I grew up on the game and the solos.  I played D&D first, but 4th ed T&T right afterwards, right after it came out.  

Most of the games I ran with T&T were short or medium term.  I quickly learned that running long term games runs into their growth/combat issues.  Unless you very carefully control for growth, it becomes superheroic very quickly.  I had to create rules for rolling for armor protection as well as weapon damage to create more variability, and you still end up with lopsided combats pretty quickly.

Lots of fun, easy to teach, fast to get started (chargen in 15 minutes max), b ut not built for a longer term game.
Currently running 1 live groups and two online group in my 30+ year old campaign setting.  
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/
Setting of the Year, 08 Campaign Builders Guild awards.
'Orbis non sufficit'

My current Collegium Arcana online game, a test for any ruleset.