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Author Topic: Dark Albion: The Rose War  (Read 5834 times)

Larsdangly

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Dark Albion: The Rose War
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2015, 12:36:03 AM »
I've had my hard-copy for a day now, and am really enjoying it. After a quick skim of the character creation section and appendices it is clear you can play this with any D&D variant or OSR relative (most easily, pre-3E) without having to really think much about system. It is simply a setting book that assumes you will probably take the path of least resistance and draw spells, monster stats, etc. from some D&D-ish game. Setting aside rules-y nonsense, it is simply bomb. Some of the details — the church being a slant-rhyme on catholicism; the contrast in setting between England ('Albion') and the rest of europe — are not things I would have done. But that's the beauty of someone else's well crafted setting: you get to see something creative that never occurred to you. Most importantly, the designer understands the important distinction between 'game-able' material and boilerplate. This is a setting book that you will really use at the table during play.

Turanil

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« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2015, 11:22:55 AM »
Quote from: Larsdangly;857705
Thanks. My only consistent gripe about most canonical pre-3E D&D editions and variants is the super crap chances of success for thief actions. Do these get handled differently in LotFP or FH&W?

I will answer for FH&W (since I am the author).

In FH&W skills checks are resolved with 1d20 + ability modifier + skill bonus, equal or higher to the a DC (i.e. difficulty challenge). To keep things simple, for all classes except thief: skill bonus = level. For the Thief class: skill bonus = level +2. The default DC = 15, and the maximum DC = 30, to keep things on par with AC. As such, a 1st level thief with 13 Dex has a base 50% chances of success with most of his skill checks (assuming the average DC 15).

Other than that, FH&W emphasizes old-school role-playing of actions instead of a mere die roll. A bonus of +1 to +4 can be granted by the GM if the player role-plays what his character does. Example: suppose the thief enters a room and player says: Okay I check for traps, lets roll a die; what did you say for the DC?; IMO this is a rather poor game. On the other hand, if the players says: Oh hum, better not to take chances; after carefully looking at the floor, walls, and ceiling, I take a pole, and gently poke right between the two statues. In this case the GM might tell that a trap was spotted or triggered without risk, or might give maybe a +1 bonus to the skill check roll.
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Larsdangly

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« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2015, 12:44:41 PM »
Thanks; this sounds right on to me. The two games I consider good reference points for success chances at non-combat activities are Runequest and The Fantasy Trip: both are games that were intentionally changing the dynamic of several things about early-edition D&D, and both landed on mechanics that have starting characters getting ~50:50 chances to do core activities at default difficulty levels. It is pretty frustrating to get used to this and then go back to your BD&D thief, who doesn't reach this level of semi-competence until he or she reaches 7h level. At which point your 7th level mages and fighters are blowing the doors off normal opponents without raising a sweat. It kind of sucks. Anyway, it sounds like you've got the right sort of recipe worked out.

Turanil

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« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2015, 02:23:49 AM »
It's because myself I was dissatisfied with pre-3e thieves that looked so weak* with their ridiculous 10% or 15% of succeeding at a class skill at first level. The only time I did play a thief (back then) was a halfling with 19 Dex, just to be decent at low levels.

(*: They also had a deplorable attack roll table, which I made slightly better in FH&W.)
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Beagle

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Dark Albion: The Rose War
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2015, 08:27:02 AM »
I haven't read the book from cover to cover yet, so I freely admit, it is possible that I have missed a detail or two. Now, I do know a thing or two about this era and accordingly, I had certain expectations concerning how the setting could be implemented. Based on these expectations, my impression so far were rather disappointing. Or to summarize: I expected a much better book. Dark Albion is pretty mediocre. At best.

The Dark Albion setting is pretty good whenever it stays true to the historical foundations. Mostly because the 15th century is a great place to run adventures in. But: Whenever the setting deviates from these historical baselines, the quality drops rapidly. The fantastic elements usually jar with the rest of the setting most of the time, and the author doesn't have a good feeling for the cultural mores of the era. For instance, essential stuff like the massive authority loss of the church in the post plague years that pretty much define the era, are ignored.
A huge part of this decline in quality is the need to dilute many of the actually interesting conflicts is by forcing them into an inherently childish black and white, good vs. evil pattern. This enforced immaturity diminishes these events, and nowhere is this as obvious as with the 100 years war itself. Sucking the ambivalence and complexity out of it to make place for stupid, inherently evil frogmen is pissing away what makes the setting good by trivializing it.

There is quite a lot of stuff that didn't made it into the book, and these omissions are bizarre. There is quite some stuff that would clearly belong in this setting (i.e. Jeann d'Arc, John Wycliff, the Great Schism and Portugal, not to mention that any setting in that era that does not exploit Gilles de Rais is weak. Weak.) that, as far as I can tell do not occur in this book.
 The most 'problematic' of these in a 'I wanna be offended' definition of the word is the complete erasure of European Jews. No Rabbi Loew and his Golem for you, I guess. Or kabalistic magic. Just to get this completely clear: This isn't some hidden or indirect accusation of antisemitism. It is just genuinely awful writing. The excluded stuff is rife with adventure potential.
For instance, no Portugal means no Henrique the Navigator, and consequently, no exploration of the Atlantic or the African coast. Also no Jews means no PCs  saving the innocent people of that nice ghetto from the angry mob's pogrom (also no belle juives if you want to spice your 15th century mayhem with a bit of 19th century romanticism). These are adventures that basically write themselves and not including the basics is just wasting the setting's potential. Again.

(However, the most stupid part is the replacement of the Kalmar Union with a bunch of anachronistic Vikings. A barely held together alliance of kingdoms, dozens of nobles almost constantly on the brink of unrest, etc - or basically yet another campaign writing itself - is replaced with… pointless, boring Vikings that do not fit into the era at all. You could just as well include Napoleon Bonaparte in the mix and it would still be less anachronistic in a mid 15th century setting than fucking Viking raiders.

Now, the rules part is, as far as I can tell, pretty good. I especially liked the stuff aboutt demonology; I think that this is a genuinely good expansion of simple D&D-ish rules.  If I used those rules, I would very likely use these demons. Even for the Runequst-based rules I use for a game like this, there are some genuinely good ideas I plan to implement in my games in some way.
The random event tables were neat as well.  The rest of the rule-stuff wasn't as great, but seems still pretty solid to me. So, the actual mechanical part of the game are by far the best part of the book, but I'm not sure that this is worth the money. The setting part definitely isn't.

Oh, and the artwork is nice, but most of it seems to be public domain stuff anyway. You get pretty much the same effect from looking at some of the works by Dürer, Cranach, van Eyck, Bosch and Breugel, plus the book of hours of Jean sans Peur. The maps are nice too, I guess, but - it is late medieval Europe. It is not like maps of that place are particularly rare or hard to find.

If you want to have a 15th century historical fantasy setting, only you know, in good, take a look at Andrej Sapkowski's Hussite Trilogy (Narrenturm, Warriors of God, Lux Perpetuam), which is vastly superior in every conceivable way. Mostly because Sapkowski actually understands the era he writes about (any claims that these books are well researched would actually hold any water) and that world building in a historical context should be based on expanding and not replacing the historical foundations with the fictional elements. Also, Sapkowski writes for an actually mature audience, so he doesn't try to force the historical events into a inherently juvenile clear-cut good vs. evil pattern. Or hides behind blatantly transparent name changes when he writes about the Roman- Catholic Church (and how it was fucked up enough at the time to eventually spawn the Reformation).
Also, Sapkowski, actually being Polish doesn't swoon over Polish historical figures that much. Naïve Polish fanboyism wasn't exactly what I expected to find in Dark Albion, but there it is.

All in all, it is a pretty meh book. There are some good ideas in it, but most of those, you can also find in an afternoon of wikipedia binging or the average library. The demonolgy stuff is pretty much the highlight of the book, but it is pretty much the only real highlight. So yeah. I expected something a lot better.

mAcular Chaotic

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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2015, 02:31:39 PM »
^Huh, interesting.

How well would this be able to fit with 5E or even Dungeon World?
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Necrozius

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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2015, 03:06:57 PM »
It's totally rules-agnostic (other than the appendices that talk about the Pundit's house rules for OSR and the part about Fantastic Heroes and Witchery).

I can't see how you couldn't use this as a setting book for any game system, really. I plan to use it with 5e or Beyond the Wall (but my GM style echoes Dungeon World a hell of a lot in terms of collaborative world building and fail forward).

EDIT: in regards to the critical post above: I suppose that my own ignorance of the historical period (of England or of Europe in general) allowed me to become impressed more easily. I too, would like to see other countries more fleshed out, perhaps in future supplements? To be fair, even WFRP only REALLY focused on not-Germany. The rest of the Old World was rather simplified and stereotyped.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 03:09:05 PM by Necrozius »

mAcular Chaotic

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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2015, 03:07:36 PM »
What about the magic? Spells tend to be pretty system specific.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

Necrozius

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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2015, 03:11:32 PM »
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;859306
What about the magic? Spells tend to be pretty system specific.


I don't have the book at hand right now, but from what I remember they weren't all that different in terms of mechanical effects compared to existing spell lists. The core idea is to strip out vulgar attack spells (e.g. lightning bold, fireball).

The Goetic stuff is mostly fluff and system-less effects. I'm sure that the authors can clarify all of this better than I could.

mAcular Chaotic

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« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2015, 06:28:16 PM »
Here's another question: how much better is the hardback in terms of quality than the softcover?

I want to order the hardback but I don't want to wait... Amazon can do the softcover much faster... curse my adapting to Prime's standards.
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Turanil

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« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2015, 03:50:51 AM »
Quote from: Necrozius;859305
in regards to the critical post above: I suppose that my own ignorance of the historical period (of England or of Europe in general) allowed me to become impressed more easily. I too, would like to see other countries more fleshed out, perhaps in future supplements?

Dark Albion was not mean to be a campaign setting for erudite historian scholars versed in the subtle politics of the 15th century. It's an OSR campaign setting with clearly evil foes to bash with your sword.

Also, it's called Dark Albion because it focuses on pseudo-England / Albion. If the rest of Europe is mentioned (one paragraph for each country), it's just to give a glimpse of the larger picture; it is not meant to describe the rest of the world in detail. So, yes, Gilles de Rai would be must-have NPC in pseudo-France / Frogland, but is not mentioned since this book is not about "Dark Frogland".

No mention of Catholic Church and Judaism is intentional. This is an OSR campaign setting, not a useless discussion about the evils of Christianity and such. Furthermore, Christian were not supposed to have divine spells; so it's easier to allow that if this is a different religion. But the GM can easily change it if he wants.
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Necrozius

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« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2015, 06:08:44 AM »
Yeah that's what I originally figured.

To be clear, I stand by my critique: I think that Dark Albion is a fine book. People shouldn't expect Dark "Europe": the scope is smaller than that (but still huge enough for a large campaign).

Beagle

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« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2015, 09:51:12 AM »
Quote from: Turanil;859354
Dark Albion was not mean to be a campaign setting for erudite historian scholars versed in the subtle politics of the 15th century. It's an OSR campaign setting with clearly evil foes to bash with your sword.


First of all, anti-intellectualism is a bad excuse for bad writing. The division between "a setting for historically versed guys" and "an OSR setting" is, in its entirety, an utterly false dilemma. A good setting would have been both - with enough historical oomph in background to show that the author knows what he is doing and enough adventure, romance and swordplay to entice the more casual onlookers and participants. Actually, that is a main criterium for good stuff - inclusive enough to assume little previous knowledge yet beefy enough to be rewarding for those who have that knowledge anyway. And just to put this into perspective: These aren't some unachievable ideal standards - the average World of Darkness Dark Ages sourcebook by White Wolf is, does a vastly better job in this regard than Dark Albion.
By the way, are you implying that one need to have any form of higher education to know about the existence of Portugal? Just a conspiracy of cartographers, then?


Quote from: Turanil;859354
Also, it's called Dark Albion because it focuses on pseudo-England / Albion. If the rest of Europe is mentioned (one paragraph for each country), it's just to give a glimpse of the larger picture; it is not meant to describe the rest of the world in detail. So, yes, Gilles de Rai would be must-have NPC in pseudo-France / Frogland, but is not mentioned since this book is not about "Dark Frogland".


A nice attempt at justification. It would even mean something if the writing on Scotland or Ireland were any better.


Quote from: Turanil;859354
No mention of Catholic Church and Judaism is intentional. This is an OSR campaign setting, not a useless discussion about the evils of Christianity and such. Furthermore, Christian were not supposed to have divine spells; so it's easier to allow that if this is a different religion. But the GM can easily change it if he wants.


Oh C'mon. Who are you trying to convince here? You know very well you didn't leave out the Catholic Church. You slightly shifted its name around and replace a few aspects and symbols. But when you still include historical popes in the mix, the idea that the result is something as completely different from the source material, is about as convincing as the statement that Charlie Chaplin never made a movie about the annexation of Austria ("see, the names are slightly different").

Also, did anyone think that you forgot the Catholic Church or Jewish communities by accident? That would be hilarious. Of course it was intentional. It was just a really bad decision that has inevitably led to a poorer, lamer setting. One of the main points, if not the most central function of a setting for any RPG is to provide opportunities for adventures, events or simply opportunities to do stuff. Taking away any of these opportunities is utterly counterproductive to the intent of the product. And when the historical base you work with provides you with so prime opportunities as this one, willful ignorance is inherently counter-productive.

Turanil

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« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2015, 02:58:01 PM »
Quote from: Beagle;859376
A nice attempt at justification. It would even mean something if the writing on Scotland or Ireland were any better.

This line proves your insincerity. It was indeed meant to be an Albion / pseudo England campaign, with just a few paragraphs to mention what lies beyond. I don't see where it becomes an "attempt at justification". Already, I found the comment about art being of public domain that people can easily see on the Internet, and that medieval maps of Europe can also be found on the Internet, rather ludicrous. So what? You thought I would have thousands of dollars to invest in art for a book that will ultimately sell less than 500 copies? Art is there to give flavor and make the text easier to read, visually speaking. Art from the period was a good fit, especially as no money was available to pay people for 400+ illustrations.

This setting is not to your expectation, that I can hear it very well. I guess it's very difficult to please everybody, so it was inevitable some people would not like it. But I nonetheless have the vague suspicion that you also have an agenda regarding this book. So White Wolf Publishing did a much better job with its book on a similar subject? If I remember well, RPGPundit (the author of Dark Albion) has not been kind regarding W.W., describing many of those who like its products as "swine pseudo-activists". So this post might be more than just a simple dislike/disappointment of D.A. In this case, this should better be my last comment (it would be useless to argue).
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« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2015, 08:51:29 PM »
Quote from: Beagle;859274
I haven't read the book from cover to cover yet, so I freely admit, it is possible that I have missed a detail or two. Now, I do know a thing or two about this era and accordingly, I had certain expectations concerning how the setting could be implemented. Based on these expectations, my impression so far were rather disappointing. Or to summarize: I expected a much better book. Dark Albion is pretty mediocre. At best.

The Dark Albion setting is pretty good whenever it stays true to the historical foundations. Mostly because the 15th century is a great place to run adventures in. But: Whenever the setting deviates from these historical baselines, the quality drops rapidly. The fantastic elements usually jar with the rest of the setting most of the time, and the author doesn't have a good feeling for the cultural mores of the era. For instance, essential stuff like the massive authority loss of the church in the post plague years that pretty much define the era, are ignored.

Really? I thought I made that fairly evident.

Quote
A huge part of this decline in quality is the need to dilute many of the actually interesting conflicts is by forcing them into an inherently childish black and white, good vs. evil pattern. This enforced immaturity diminishes these events, and nowhere is this as obvious as with the 100 years war itself. Sucking the ambivalence and complexity out of it to make place for stupid, inherently evil frogmen is pissing away what makes the setting good by trivializing it.

The complex and ambivalent war was the Rose War itself. The war on the Continent was black and white, good vs. evil (just like the historical 100 years war was!).  Though even there, there's complexity in the way that the internal squabbles in the Anglish court at that time was eroding the Anglish war effort.

Quote
There is quite a lot of stuff that didn't made it into the book, and these omissions are bizarre. There is quite some stuff that would clearly belong in this setting (i.e. Jeann d'Arc, John Wycliff, the Great Schism and Portugal, not to mention that any setting in that era that does not exploit Gilles de Rais is weak. Weak.)

Those are all things that historically happened before the setting period. It would be adding details for no purpose. By 1454 when the setting starts, all those people and events you mentioned are at least a decade dead or gone.  Why would I focus on something the PCs can't get involved with?

Quote
The most 'problematic' of these in a 'I wanna be offended' definition of the word is the complete erasure of European Jews. No Rabbi Loew and his Golem for you, I guess. Or kabalistic magic. Just to get this completely clear: This isn't some hidden or indirect accusation of antisemitism. It is just genuinely awful writing. The excluded stuff is rife with adventure potential.

There were no Jews in england in 1454. None.

There is in fact one mention of Jews in the book, but since this is also an alternate religious history where the Sol Invictus rather than Christianity dominated Europe, this made the position of Judaism very different there.

Quote
For instance, no Portugal means no Henrique the Navigator, and consequently, no exploration of the Atlantic or the African coast.

Portugal exists in the setting. It is "Portugao", and it is vassal kingdom within Iberia.  If you look at appendix I, King Afonso V of Portugao is listed as an honorary knight of the Star. Thus, Henry the Navigator also existed. I just don't mention him because it isn't very relevant to the setting of Albion itself.


 
Quote
Also no Jews means no PCs  saving the innocent people of that nice ghetto from the angry mob's pogrom

There were no Jewish ghettos in England in 1454, because there were no Jews there (and hadn't been any in 150 years, and wouldn't be any for another 200 or so). Also 'pogroms' weren't invented until Russia was invented; but I'm going to be generous and assume you just meant general persecution.

Quote
(However, the most stupid part is the replacement of the Kalmar Union with a bunch of anachronistic Vikings. A barely held together alliance of kingdoms, dozens of nobles almost constantly on the brink of unrest, etc - or basically yet another campaign writing itself - is replaced with… pointless, boring Vikings that do not fit into the era at all. You could just as well include Napoleon Bonaparte in the mix and it would still be less anachronistic in a mid 15th century setting than fucking Viking raiders.

The Northmen by the 1400s don't do that much raiding anymore. I'm pretty sure I explicitly said that in the book. I'm checking, and yes, actually I definitely did.
And in fact, there IS the Kalmar Union. It's explicitly mentioned in the book.
Which makes me wonder if you've actually even read the section on the Northlands? It's right there on p.74.

Quote
The random event tables were neat as well.  The rest of the rule-stuff wasn't as great, but seems still pretty solid to me. So, the actual mechanical part of the game are by far the best part of the book, but I'm not sure that this is worth the money. The setting part definitely isn't.

It seems to me that your complaint about the setting is that Dark Albion wasn't a 1700-page book that contained intimate details of King Ferdinand of Aragon's bowel movements.

Quote
Oh, and the artwork is nice, but most of it seems to be public domain stuff anyway. You get pretty much the same effect from looking at some of the works by Dürer, Cranach, van Eyck, Bosch and Breugel, plus the book of hours of Jean sans Peur.

This is like saying "well, Watchmen was nice, but you could get pretty much the same effect by collecting a whole bunch of old Carlton comics and feeling pessimistic about humanity".

Quote
Also, Sapkowski, actually being Polish doesn't swoon over Polish historical figures that much. Naïve Polish fanboyism wasn't exactly what I expected to find in Dark Albion, but there it is.

Ohh.. is that it? I notice you're from Germany.  Still pissed after all these centuries that Jagiello kicked your Teutonic asses?
What exactly in my presentation of the Commonwealth was 'fanboyism'? I presented the Commonwealth as a regional superpower (which it was at the time) full of religious fanatics (which it was) that was led by a charismatic and extremely effective king (which it was) that was fighting in near-constant wars throughout his reign against all of his neighbours (which he was) that he tended to win (which he did).  

Quote
All in all, it is a pretty meh book. There are some good ideas in it, but most of those, you can also find in an afternoon of wikipedia binging or the average library. The demonolgy stuff is pretty much the highlight of the book, but it is pretty much the only real highlight. So yeah. I expected something a lot better.

I think it's pretty clear that your fundamental expectation was for a less Anglo-centric product, which is a frankly absurd expectation to put on a product called "dark ALBION".
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