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91
To simplify the game balance point:

  • If a wheelchair-bound character is created the same way as any other, and then apply realistic effects of being paraplegic - then yeah, that character will be a liability compared to the others.
  • If being wheelchair-bound is balanced by other advantages (as is normal in game balance), then whether the character is a liability, balanced, or overpowered depends on what the compensating advantages given are.

It's the same principle as any other weakness in a game.

GM: "So in this campaign you will all be playing Mer-People, fighting the cruel ruler of Atlantis to free your people."

jhkim: "I'm taking air-breather as a disadvantage."

GM: "It's...set under the ocean."

jhkim: "It's a disadvantage from the rulebook. All things work in all situations, as long as the points balance out. I may breathe air, but I have some very nice skills to help the party."

GM: "OK, so the adventure starts, jkhim's character instantly drowns. Do you give it a decent burial, or use it to distract the King's guardian sharks?"

jhkim: "AHA! Told you I was useful to bring along" (Smug grin of victory)
92
It's the same game balance logic as when I had a wheelchair-using character in my superpowers game. The superpowered PCs still had to do things like move, sneak, and so forth -- but they could and did use their abilities to compensate.

That's exactly what I meant when I said  "If they can't do those things physically, they need to be able to reliably produce an equivalent result magically." It's not about an abstracted power level, it's about whether or not you can deal with situations which will reliably turn up in the adventure. How big of a fireball you can shoot doesn't really matter if you can't get down the stairs into the dungeon, or run away from the inevitable monster which is too powerful, or survive a goblin throwing a rock at you.

Saying "all adventurers must be able to do XYZ" sounds like 4E D&D style balance - where all characters do the same things, just by different methods. And if one likes 4E, then that's fine. But it is also possible and playable to have characters that are more differentiated.

I don't put much stock in game balance - at best, it's an art rather than a science. But in general, weaknesses are compensated for by strengths. In 3rd edition, they balanced races with "effective character level" (ECL). For example, if a starting 1st level party had the option to bring along a 12th level wizard who used a wheelchair, then the wheelchair-using character would overshadow everyone else. Even though they can't walk, they can summon monsters to carry them or similar. Regardless of how one assesses the wheelchair, that degree of magical power more than compensates.

I understand why someone would read things that way, but it's genuinely not about balance to me. It's about verisimilitude. I'm apparently alone in this, but I don't buy that a person who can't withstand physical hardship or defend themselves would succeed long-term as a career adventurer. It's not often an issue in D&D because of a bunch of meta reasons which are external to the fictional world of the game: everything from the way turn-based combat works, to dungeon design, the experience system and which factors are and are not simulated in the rules. That's what I mean by "game convention". Mostly I can let willing suspension of disbelief fill in the gaps, but it does bother me a bit that most fantasy RPGs reward specialization over generalism, just because I personally find playing generalists more fun.

"Game balance" is a bit of an old-school gaming bogeyman. Every edition of D&D since at least AD&D1e has had substantial thought put into game balance, and frankly so has every RPG I've ever read. Success rates vary, but the effort is obvious in the text. People complain about newer editions of D&D focusing on class roles, but that's how the game has always been. Fighters excel in combat, Thieves excel at dungeon exploration. Wizards get utility abilities and act as artillery. Etc. Etc. All that changed is that the roles went from macro to micro. Instead of some classes having "be good at fighting" as their role, they moved towards every class having a designated combat role. That attitude has never been as well realized in other aspects of the game, such as exploration and socializing, but they've clearly tried. That isn't at all what I was arguing for (though again I see why it might read that way), but it's not the worst idea. I just think "every character is good at some things and bad at others" vs. "every character can do everything equally well" is a false dichotomy. I'd prefer a game where every character has a base competence in the mandatory major activities of the game (unless they choose to handicap themselves at character creation), but has one or two things they excel at.
93
Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion / Re: Orcs vs goblins
« Last post by zer0th on March 27, 2024, 02:33:24 PM »
The first orc I saw is green and not pig-faced, so that may have influenced my image of an orc.

They look more like alligators, right? (The picture is from the D&D cartoon.)
94
Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion / Re: Orcs vs goblins
« Last post by Venka on March 27, 2024, 02:09:11 PM »
Tolkien's orcs were also called goblins.

Quote from: J.R.R. Tolkien, Preface to The Hobbit
Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places [in The Hobbit] but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds).

Great find, I had no idea. In that conception, they are literally the same creature with different names (not like WH40K, which has them sorted by sizes and roles but with the same fungal origin).
95
The RPGPundit's Own Forum / Re: Greta is at it..AGAIN
« Last post by GeekyBugle on March 27, 2024, 01:49:47 PM »
We use alternatives all the time - it's around 40% of our electricity nationally, and in many other countries it's the majority - like France or Sweden. You keep speaking as if either we use zero fossil fuels or nothing matters, but that's obviously hyperbole. There are lots of in-between steps.

Well, IF it's not ZERO fossil fuels then what is it? For electricity generation you don't have a more reliable, cheaper and cleaner option.

For transport you DON'T have any other option:

No country is 100% off fossil fuels, but many countries that use *less* fossil fuels have overall more reliable, cheaper, and cleaner power. France and Sweden generate less than 20% of their energy from fossil fuels, and their energy is cheaper than average in Western Europe - thanks in part to early investment in nuclear power. (Germany and Denmark which have no nuclear are doing much worse.)

In particular, about the "cleaner" part... Fossil fuels are considered cleaner only because air pollution is given a free pass, even though it has clearly documented health effects, causing 5 million or so early deaths every year worldwide. If there was even the slightest health effect from a nuclear accident, a city would be shut down and evacuated. But we've been conditioned to think that air pollution is acceptable because it's just "normal". As Brad put it "Breathing in diesel exhaust will kill you from carbon monoxide poisoning a billion times sooner than anything else in there." -- as if that is some sort of reassurance that really diesel is safe.


Batteries weight the same full than empty, which limits the cargo and range of ANY vehicle, which in turn impacts prices. EVs aren't good even for commuting, as proven by Commiefornia asking their ressidents to NOT charge them because the grid can't service them. In winter EVs often can't start.

For what it's worth, my stepson is driving an eGolf that he got from his father. I think in your charging comment, you're referring to the record-heat week back in August 2022 when California asked everyone to reduce electricity use. Is that right? California does have below-average electricity reliability, but it's #35 out of 50. The three lowest are Oregon, Texas, and Louisiana.

https://generatordecision.com/states-with-the-most-least-reliable-power-grids/

I wouldn't dismiss all problems with EVs, but you're claiming that they don't even exist as an alternative.

You said before that there are no easy answers. I agree about that. EVs exist and are currently being used as an alternative to gasoline cars. Gasoline cars have greater range and weigh less, but they also spit out harmful pollutants into the air that are proven to damage lungs and reduce lifespan. There isn't a simple metric for how these trade off with each other.

My bad, when I said safer, reliable and cleaner I was talking about Nuclear, just noticed I ommited writting the word.

The Eurupean countries that closed their Nuclear plants to please the Environmentalists are doing worse? Well I'm shocked!

EVs don't "spit out harmful pollutants into the air" while you're driving them, that's true, all the harmful pollutants are produced while manufacturing them and producing the energy to charge them plus all the pollution produced when those batteries are no longer usable.

They are being used as an alternative BECAUSE the governments are both punishing the manufacture/use of ICE vehicles while subsidizing the manufacture/use of EVs, all of that while turning a blind eye to all the environmental damage done for the manufacture and the pollution created during it's life and after for the dispossal of the batteries.

IF you think that's a good exchange it's only because you're not seeing the smoke, but as you know air pollution doesn't stay over China or India, and destroying the environment to mine for the minerals for the batteries isn't a worthy trade-off either IMHO. Maybe that pollution is acceptable to you for some reason.

For the Nth time, if you want to reduce/eliminate the use of fossil fuels in energy generation you have very few REAL alternatives, with Nuclear at the top with some hydro, geo-termal and maybe marine to supplement where possible. IF you want to reduce/eliminate the use of fossil fuels for transport I can see only ONE real option, Hydrogen, higher energy density than fossil fuels, but it's a bomb rolling down your street or parked in your garage, it needs to become cheaper to produce and safer to transport/use before we can think about switching to it. It's also way cleaner than fossil fuels BTW. Plus, if we managed to create an efficient enough way to combine it with oxygen while producing electricity you could have your precious electric motors everywhere while getting water vapor from the exahust.

Those are all facts, you might not like them but you have no scientific way to argue against me.
96
Just watched Dune Part 2 yesterday and I kept thinking about this topic when watching the Baron floating around with his assistive devices.  Now THAT is a type of disabled future-wheelchair character that I'd be fine with playing!   And, of course, we get to see what his life is like without it at one point.
97
To simplify the game balance point:

  • If a wheelchair-bound character is created the same way as any other, and then apply realistic effects of being paraplegic - then yeah, that character will be a liability compared to the others.
  • If being wheelchair-bound is balanced by other advantages (as is normal in game balance), then whether the character is a liability, balanced, or overpowered depends on what the compensating advantages given are.

It's the same principle as any other weakness in a game.
98
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« Last post by BelleMuerte on March 27, 2024, 01:37:28 PM »
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99
If a character has enough compensating power and skills, then they are still an asset to the group and will be taken along even if they sometimes need help.

'Sometimes need help' is a woman or child getting tired and needing a hand over a wall. Trying to cross a rubble-strewn hellscape crawling with killer robots, with wheelchair gal, is stupid to the point of destroying verisimilitude.

Watch the T1 flashback, where able bodied people are killed after being visible for a second.

The whole point of the Terminator movies was having unlikely heroes rather than the standard action heroes. T1 had a seasoned commando as a plot device, but the real protagonist was an unassuming waitress who is the one that wins in the end. T2 the protagonist was a ten-year-old kid. A wheelchair-using character is spot-on with the theme.

If, say, the wheelchair-using character were the only one with the skill to reprogram terminator robots, then I'm pretty sure the others would go through fire to make sure to get them into the right place to do it.

You're a shining example of someone being highly intelligent, and extremely educated, then letting ideology turn your brain to shit.

The absolute nonsensical BS you'll twist your mind into knots excusing is truly a sight to behold.

Since we don't have an upvote button...
100
The RPGPundit's Own Forum / Re: Greta is at it..AGAIN
« Last post by jhkim on March 27, 2024, 01:25:29 PM »
We use alternatives all the time - it's around 40% of our electricity nationally, and in many other countries it's the majority - like France or Sweden. You keep speaking as if either we use zero fossil fuels or nothing matters, but that's obviously hyperbole. There are lots of in-between steps.

Well, IF it's not ZERO fossil fuels then what is it? For electricity generation you don't have a more reliable, cheaper and cleaner option.

For transport you DON'T have any other option:

No country is 100% off fossil fuels, but many countries that use *less* fossil fuels have overall more reliable, cheaper, and cleaner power. France and Sweden generate less than 20% of their energy from fossil fuels, and their energy is cheaper than average in Western Europe - thanks in part to early investment in nuclear power. (Germany and Denmark which have no nuclear are doing much worse.)

In particular, about the "cleaner" part... Fossil fuels are considered cleaner only because air pollution is given a free pass, even though it has clearly documented health effects, causing 5 million or so early deaths every year worldwide. If there was even the slightest health effect from a nuclear accident, a city would be shut down and evacuated. But we've been conditioned to think that air pollution is acceptable because it's just "normal". As Brad put it "Breathing in diesel exhaust will kill you from carbon monoxide poisoning a billion times sooner than anything else in there." -- as if that is some sort of reassurance that really diesel is safe.


Batteries weight the same full than empty, which limits the cargo and range of ANY vehicle, which in turn impacts prices. EVs aren't good even for commuting, as proven by Commiefornia asking their ressidents to NOT charge them because the grid can't service them. In winter EVs often can't start.

For what it's worth, my stepson is driving an eGolf that he got from his father. I think in your charging comment, you're referring to the record-heat week back in August 2022 when California asked everyone to reduce electricity use. Is that right? California does have below-average electricity reliability, but it's #35 out of 50. The three lowest are Oregon, Texas, and Louisiana.

https://generatordecision.com/states-with-the-most-least-reliable-power-grids/

I wouldn't dismiss all problems with EVs, but you're claiming that they don't even exist as an alternative.

You said before that there are no easy answers. I agree about that. EVs exist and are currently being used as an alternative to gasoline cars. Gasoline cars have greater range and weigh less, but they also spit out harmful pollutants into the air that are proven to damage lungs and reduce lifespan. There isn't a simple metric for how these trade off with each other.
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