Quote from: Brand55 on May 02, 2024, 12:45:37 PM3. PEG caves. The SFC's release is pushed back so the cover can be "fixed"--now Red stands calmly with her hands clasped behind her over her backside, and her pants have been altered to look more loose and shapeless.

This is the only sign of the original cover I could find online: http://realmsofchirak.blogspot.com/2014/06/savage-worlds-science-fiction-companion.html. I believe the preview cover had a smaller logo or was zoomed out such that Red's body was in profile like in the released cover; you could see her from her head down to about her knees.

LOL wow. You're right. Well it's not enough for me to ditch SWADE over. But yeah that sucks. I don't think either cover is particularly good. But they should not have given in on principle.

Okay from the top - I've never *really* looked at the Savage Worlds art before strictly, unless something caught my eye that was very cool. For the most part my feelings have always been their art is middling and sufficient to "meh" with a few exceptions that would make me double-take.

So the whole "Red got Ugly" thing. Honestly, I never knew she was an "iconic" character until they mentioned her in SWADE and as someone that has a thing for redheads (I married one) you'd think I'd notice. When it comes to Red, and most of the images in SW, not really. But naturally, I *did* notice the character on the cover of the original Fantasy Companion - which as I understand it is Red. Let's ALL keep in mind, these are generic rule books, they're not for a specific setting, so many of these images are contextual (usually) to the respective sections/genre they're writing about.

and

Now... I went through the whole Deluxe edition of the Fantasy Companion. There is not a lot of female art in the book, and the ones that do exist, may/may not be Red, but none of them were "sexy" by my standards.



They're pretty basic "fantasy" art. MEH. So Lets take a look at the other Deluxe edition books.

This is the cover of the Sci-fi Companion.


Nothing really to write home about. That's pretty much *IT* from the Deluxe Editions. That's all we got for Red. If I'm mistaken, please let me know, I went through  the Deluxe and SWADE Core rules and Companions. Yes, there are semi-sexy pics in those books of a few women, but nothing racy. I'll provide pics. But when it comes to Red, to my knowledge this is the entirety of her appearances in the Deluxe books.

So we're clear - we're basing this on Red getting uglier from her proto-depictions before she was labeled "iconic" in the later SWADE editions from 14+ years ago.

Here is Red on the cover of the SWADE Fantasy Companion


Not sexy. But very fantasy. Let's move on.

This is Red as she is depicted in the Fantasy Companion.









Not sexy. But very fantasy. To the point that she is less attractive - sure. But there is an important point to be made. They're all drawn by the same artist (I think) or at least in the same style. Because in the book there *are* feminine pictures of women (if you find them sexy - okay, I don't).





The point being that other artists are drawing their women differently than the ones used for Red. Why? No idea. But Pinnacle doesn't seem to be making that distinction based on anything in particular other than the artist they use for Red draws her consistently like an adventurer - not a sexpot. So I think there is something to be said about that. Is it *caving in*? Let's dig a little deeper.

SWADE Core. Here is Red looking like a Laura Croft-type adventurer.


In the book she appears a few times, usually with her male partner.







Or running solo...





UGH. This one is egregious.

Savage Worlds Superheroes Companion SWADE edition cover


Interior Red pieces



But also inside are pics like these:









Are there unattractive female art? Yes. Are they meant to be unattractive - some of them for sure. Others? It's just not good art.

I think this is where I land on it. Did Red "become" more unattractive? Yes, but it was because of the artist. She is being consistently portrayed as an "adventurer" sort... But the point that she has been de-emphasized as feminine seems pretty apparent to me.

That said - if they were completely woke, this would be more consistent throughout the books and they simply aren't. There aren't that many pieces of art with Red in them and there are much more feminine pieces of other characters that otherwise "balance it out".

Ultimately, after going through these all, I find myself thinking their art is more mediocre than I thought. But while Red has several pieces I find atrocious, I feel it's more to do with the consistent use of a specific artist than any real design choice by Pinnacle.

I could be wrong, but I'd need someone at Pinnacle to come say it. Maybe that's happened?

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Compare the old Fantasy companion to the new one.  Pretty stark difference.  Even on the cover of the SWADE book, her facial features are hardened a bit and almost masculinized to a degree compared with how she was usually depicted.  Now possibly there is a different artist...but the clothing has changed quite a bit.

Quote from: tenbones on May 02, 2024, 11:10:24 AMI honestly don't know if they "caved" on the art. While it would be concern if they did (and said so - if they did let us know), it's not a dealbreaker for me since I've found the *vast* majority of their art forgettable in the first place. There are always exceptions to the general rule, but this is just my experience with their books.

The old forums are long gone, so there's no thread to link to. But it went something like this:

1. SFC is announced and numerous people, including me, pre-order. The first look shows the cover where a female commander stands on the deck of her ship watching a battle. Her left hand is raised and her fist clenched. If you've got the previous SFC, you know the scene.

2. A few people post on the forums bitching about the fact you can see her (fully-clothed) ass since the point of view is from behind. Others say it's fine and we don't see any issue. The whiners complain that such sexualized covers make  it embarrassing to carry Savage Worlds products out in public, and they specifically focus on the Companion books and compare them to pornography.

3. PEG caves. The SFC's release is pushed back so the cover can be "fixed"--now Red stands calmly with her hands clasped behind her over her backside, and her pants have been altered to look more loose and shapeless.

This is the only sign of the original cover I could find online: http://realmsofchirak.blogspot.com/2014/06/savage-worlds-science-fiction-companion.html. I believe the preview cover had a smaller logo or was zoomed out such that Red's body was in profile like in the released cover; you could see her from her head down to about her knees.

A very similar thing happened with the Savage Rifts Kickstarter a few years ago. One of the covers was a less-explicit homage to an original Rifts cover. A handful of people complained in the Kickstarter comments, and even though the majority of the people who commented thought the image was fine, PEG again sided with the woke complainers and had the image censored further to appease them.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 02, 2024, 11:38:20 AMIf you look at their iconic figure "Red", her wardrobe is drastically different in covers or anywhere she appears in the books now.  Her face even looks different, as I said they nerfed her all around.

Sure. I'm game. Let's put this to the test and see where we land! BRB!

Quote from: tenbones on May 02, 2024, 11:10:24 AM

Quote from: Brand55 on May 01, 2024, 02:37:19 PMThere's also the art censorship. I don't like SWADE so I wasn't there to see the Rifts Kickstarter kerfuffle, but I was active on PEG's forums when they caved to the woke agitators over the previous Science Fiction Companion's cover. Apparently, carrying around a book with a picture of a fully-clothed woman is akin to waving around hardcore pornography, so we can't have that.

This might be true. I actually didn't notice. To be honest - I've always thought that Savage World's art was meh. I don't demand eye-candy in all my books, but I want good art. If I can't get it, I'll ignore it, since I'm there for game-content.

I'd prefer big-titties and ass in my Fantasy books over my sci-fi, but that's just me. I'd take a badass motherfucker in power-armor on my sci-fi cover over a Deja Thoris inspired babe because of my tastes in sci-fi. Though I'm not going to dismiss her either. The usual rules apply.

I honestly don't know if they "caved" on the art. While it would be concern if they did (and said so - if they did let us know), it's not a dealbreaker for me since I've found the *vast* majority of their art forgettable in the first place. There are always exceptions to the general rule, but this is just my experience with their books.

  If you look at their iconic figure "Red", her wardrobe is drastically different in covers or anywhere she appears in the books now.  Her face even looks different, as I said they nerfed her all around.

Gune is a solo hack of Nate Treme's Tunnel Goons, inspired by novels and films about colossal desert worms and ambiguous messiahs. But in this version you can buy a used van, which I think is a nice addition. It uses 2d6,  a couple of oracles and bunch of tables.

Check it out if you're interested in a free solo RPG with simple rules.

GUNE

Quote from: Brand55 on May 01, 2024, 02:37:19 PMThere's also the art censorship. I don't like SWADE so I wasn't there to see the Rifts Kickstarter kerfuffle, but I was active on PEG's forums when they caved to the woke agitators over the previous Science Fiction Companion's cover. Apparently, carrying around a book with a picture of a fully-clothed woman is akin to waving around hardcore pornography, so we can't have that.

This might be true. I actually didn't notice. To be honest - I've always thought that Savage World's art was meh. I don't demand eye-candy in all my books, but I want good art. If I can't get it, I'll ignore it, since I'm there for game-content.

I'd prefer big-titties and ass in my Fantasy books over my sci-fi, but that's just me. I'd take a badass motherfucker in power-armor on my sci-fi cover over a Deja Thoris inspired babe because of my tastes in sci-fi. Though I'm not going to dismiss her either. The usual rules apply.

I honestly don't know if they "caved" on the art. While it would be concern if they did (and said so - if they did let us know), it's not a dealbreaker for me since I've found the *vast* majority of their art forgettable in the first place. There are always exceptions to the general rule, but this is just my experience with their books.