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Messages - Shrieking Banshee

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This mostly fits my points. That it's "made out of spite" seems like a subjective judgement of the author's emotions - which seems tricky to argue in any case.
Well its a subjective judgement of the author's statement of saying that only natives can make up pseudo-realistic mumbo jumbo about tribes, and if your not a native then know your place because your made-up tribe would be illegitimate. Which I feel is very rich considering the number of liberties they take to create their world.
Also that point they make that this is explicitly made to be a political work.

But spite exactly, no. I don't find the stated motivations the best for inspired fun, but I don't know if its spite 100%

Out of curiousity, are there any examples of similar concepts other than Fantastic Four #52 that you like - or specifically that you don't think are bitter/spiteful?
As I said: I find the baseline idea of the world fine enough. As I would with nords in space or a magic focused Africa.
But the general story of 'Spark against the oppressor' storylines I find incredibly played out even if it took place entirely with fantastical creatures unrelated to any direct parallel.
Something like Kingdom Come: Deliverance is purely an example of trying to convey historical fiction (though its wonky in places, but all historical fiction is to a degree).

I just think the power fantasy of 'World where my group is teh rules everybody else drulz' is just cringeworthy and embarrassing no matter the group that does it (doesn't have to be race-based). The nature of such a setup goal means that all story elements are only really in service of said power fantasy.

Wakanda, at least the way it was executed in FF, wasn't that as much as a neat pulp location like hollow earth or atlantis. Im pretty sure DC has the same sort of idea with magical sentient gorilaz. Thats why it didn't come off as bitter to me.

I generally dislike stories about some species with all the money in the world or super science or magic or whatever passing judgement on humans for being greedy or warlike or whatever.

Do you really think that the 1960s had less bitterness around race in the U.S. than modern times?
Less bitterness in the writing. In the writing of the specific comic.

I find that kind of hard to fathom. It seems to me that the 1960s were a high point of racial violence and division within the U.S.
Bitterness is a thing you can generate however and keep it going for whatever ideology hucksters make money off of this.
Gender relations for instance get embittered by the decade despite increasingly more concessions and placations.

As to bitterness, the kind of race stories told have indeed become more bitter (for mainstream audiences anyway).

What I especially disagree with is the idea that even the *concept* of a fictional isolated nation like Wakanda is racist.

And I didn't say it was. I listed many many multiple times how I don't have a problem with the idea, just in relation to Crow & Coyote it's pretty clearly made as a product of spite, revisionism, and intersectional desires.

If it didn't take itself so seriously, and the creators didn't state their intent of 'You must be this native to make up tribe stuff' I said I would have found it downright commendable.

Well isn't that the whole point?

Reading the Kickstarter....It isn't. To a certain degree, it's actually respectable.
Everyone involved in Coyote and Crow is deeply passionate about our game and we felt that it was time for Indigenous folks to have a game that didn't see them as secondary, as adversaries, or intertwined with colonialism.

I think its pretty respectable to want a game with natives just doing 'native' stuff with somekind of magic/sci-fi skin or whatever. It explicitly doesn't have 'The evil army of invading white men'. I find that a very respectable goal to celebrate your own culture or iterate on it with kitsch fun stuff, without needing to depend on an oppressor / oppressed narrative.

I'm not nordic but imagine like....'Vikings IN SPAAACE!' type story. What happened to the rest of the world? Doesn't particularly matter. Why are nords from the 600s a society that became a stellar empire? I donno. And that's fine.

It's actually a product where there is outright no victim/dominator mentality. That's incredibly refreshing. And very not SJW.
And to a certain degree, I don't see a problem with some level of revisionism for the harsh truths. You don't need every setting to go into the graphic details that underpin the horrific serf conditions if its about a mystical royalty for example.
I don't think LOTR is an advocate for eugenics because it's a setting where there just are bloodlines of royalty that are more important/ better.

The only real eye-rolling part of this it plays into intersectionality crap, and its still a product largely made of spite.
Our team features people from across the LGBTQIA spectrum, including two spirit folks. It's not even a question that this game is political. If you have a problem with a game where there are no people of European descent represented, than this game is probably not for you.

I actually think that this is a product more on the right track of how to handle this sort of idea if the people behind it weren't doing it out of spite, and had to check off all the other intersectional checkboxes.

It's so implausibly stupid given what we know about real history. Just like removing slavery from Deadlands but pretending the Civil War would have been fought in exactly the same manner is dumb as fuck.

Il argue that wanting a sci-fi universe but with Native American trappings isn't necessarily in any way wrong. It's a kitche idea that doesn't inherently have any real issues.
Its more just an idea brought to prominence because of current year politics and the like. A lighthearted kitche cartoony version of a real-world element isn't necessarily problematic, its just how its creators present it as a work with any sort of cultural merit.

I'd say it would be just a mediocre idea I wouldn't be interested in (because I hate the idea of spirituality somehow lending itself to ecological balance), if the creators weren't pinning it as some work of cultural importance. To a certain degree, I feel this is just cynical opportunism that makes money through controversy. This sort of product wouldn't really make anybody notice if it was a Christian Wakanda or a Scandinavian Wakanda.

By virtue of even discussing it I think we kinda just work as free marketing for mediocrity. We are the 'haters' that SJWs need to give money to mediocre projects like this.

I think we’re missing the forests for the trees. I don’t think what’s significant is that it’s wish-fulfillment fantasy instead of revenge fantasy. It looks like it’s racist wish-fulfillment fantasy. If someone wrote an alternate setting where a pagan Europe developed super science because Christianity was averted by having the Jews never return from exile and eventually assimilate like so many other exiled communities, there’d be no doubt this person was writing racist wish-fulfillment.
I actually brought that up before. I just think it's important to make a consistent argument is all.
To a certain extent its just sad that Wakanda and stuff like it became such a massive racially charged cliche.

Like holy hell, this sort of story was a cliche in 1961 when Wakanda was first written:
Black Panther: 'To me he was more than a father, he was like a god!'
Ben: 'Look kiddo, why don't you save yourself the trouble? I know the rest of the story by heart! Everything was hunky-dory until the greedy ivory hunters made the scene!
Wakanda wasn't actually secreted away, hidden utopia through all of history. It was revolutionized by the Black Panther after foreign invaders were driven off by him and he reverse-engineered their technology (Klaw). Also, the black panther was a genius who revolutionized his nation by his very words 'For a lark'. And they made money by TRADING vibranium. Its not the core technology for everything in the friggin world. And then at the end of the story he becomes a superhero in the service of all mankind.

It was an anti-colonialism story to be sure, but it was one with a twist and a whole lot less bitterness that was attributed to it later to fit our more bitter times.

But as "revenge fantasy"? That's claiming "I live out a fulfilling life and never see my attacker" is a personal revenge fantasy.
Agreed. It's a wish-fulfillment fantasy, not a revenge fantasy.

There is a huge difference between:

1) A game with no fictional premise other than lack of European conquest, which claims that it is a realistic projection that Native America civilizations would develop advanced technology in 700 years.

2) A game where there are superhuman psychic powers, billed as "science fantasy", that has Native America civilizations developing advanced technology in 700 years.

In #1, the game is making a false claim about where Native American civilizations would go. In #2, though, it's just a "what if". I could imagine a series of "what if" games which each had what if there was a fictional source of advancement for different civilizations. i.e. What if India got superhuman powers and technology? What if Australia gained superhuman powers and technology? What if Europe got superhuman powers and technology? These aren't racist, because they aren't saying that the *cause* of the advancement is racial superiority.

I have no real dog in this fight, but this is clearly a bitter race-fueled power fantasy and not a 'what if' scenario. I outlined that the difference is execution and the result.

'What if WWI Germany became a utopia and conquered everybody' as a purely what-if scenario with the only difference is the absence of jews is this sort of questionable scenario.

Back to the topic at hand:
I don't believe this sort of roleplay is isolated to races. I think this sort of 'worldbuilding power fantasy' is always....kinda pathetic. And il state it with 'my' preferred type of politics so I can argue in good faith. Making a world where all the sins of mankind vanish because we embraced decentralization, and a focus on free trade and individualism I would find as pathetic as a world around how awesome communism is.

I think it very much differs from individual power fantasy because that represents a desire to change the world through yourself or experience a new set of circumstances through yourself. And done moderately, I think is perfectly healthy.
But 'world power fantasy' is I find generally much more of an unhealthy sort of fantasizing because it starts with making assumptions about the world, and I find is a more unhealthy kind of escapism.

Now, this is very different from a 'What if" scenario. 'What if Julius Ceasar was more loyal to the republic' is a very different kind of worldbuilding then 'I wish FDR never poisoned everybody's minds with lies'.

I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with the scenario of 'I want to play in a sci-fantasy world in purely indian trappings'. I think the issue is the execution and the real underlining motivation of its creation. It's the current year. The guy making this isn't doing this out of some deep-seated interest in theoretical sci-fi, but out of racial theory wish fulfillment. Just as most characters can be expressed out of interest or narcissistic wish fulfillment, so can worlds.

For instance, Gurps Infinite Worlds has a world that's 100% communist (Lenin 1) with an alt-history. But it never feels like the author wish fulfillment. Alongside Lenin 1 is Lenin 2 which's a commie ecological hellscape.

The real thing they are saying is:

"I think some ideas scare me so much I don't believe the public at large is to be trusted with the notion of entertaining them even as a fantastical theoretical".

That's really what this video and their Nazi one are really saying. They are just unwilling to be intellectually honest about that.

I'm of the opinion people should be allowed to inflict whatever stupidity they wanted on themselves.

I think stuff like fat self-care is just....disgusting wish fulfillment, but nothing more insidious than that. At least not any more so insidious than the obesity positivity movement as a whole.

And I'm a guy that lost 40 pounds over like 6 months. You can do it.

The change is symbolic but powerful—it’s a message to the next generation of writers, artists, and editors

Its amusing because it is a powerful but symbolic message:
'We will tear you down no matter your status. Be afraid.'

War is Peace and Hate is love and all that.

Back to the main point, I put up:

SJWs have changed the Overton window enough that Diversity is often not even discussed as an idea: it's just accepted to be a fundamentally good thing. Even most that resist the SJW worldview are only allowed to discuss whether or not SJW diversity is real or not, or if the diversity is 'organic' or not, or if it's' too much' diversity.

I don't believe diversity is inherently a bad thing, but I think the idea of it being an inherently good thing has to be shaken off for real counter progress to be made.

I imagine that most SJWs have the same image of themselves.

Eeeh that's giving too much and too little credit. That man performed monstrous acts but he performed them. That requires having a very genuine will to act.

SJWs are childish, and they retain a childish schoolyard mentality. A few at the top are sociopaths that want power, but most SJWs are just to feel good about themselves and think very little while persuing what FEELS right.

Alita Battle Angel is it cyberpunk or transhumanism by that standard?

Man is that an interesting question....The early parts on earth are punky. Afterwards, it turns into Dystopian (Ish) Sci-Fi.

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