I'm about to throw my laptop w/ PCGen out the window... Screw this, I'm back to basic text files.

Immediate Transactions.

4.2gp = 7 day wages upfront Mika & Maggie, 3sp/day
4gp = +2 Barrel
8gp = +2 Saddlebag
16.2gp = Total  (I will subtract this immediately from my reserves.)

I already had 5 waterskins (one for each warhorse and donkey), so Maggie & Mika can borrow 2. Cudberct, Hasor, & Certh each have one -- let me know if they bring their own).
--------------------------------

This is my contribution to gear in caravan. I will post this in my PC link at the front, underneath everything else. The less I touch PCGen now the better.

There's plenty of carrying capacity in the cart left. If you are leaving anything to my cart responsibility, please inform ASAP. We should still have much space and weight left for passengers.

Gear in Caravan

Cudberct  36 lb
Explorer Outfit 8 lb, Leather Armor 15 lb, Buckler 5 lb, Longbow + 20 arrows (quivered) 3+3 lb, Dagger x2 (belted) 2lb, Signet Ring, Ring Feather Fall, Glove of Dex+2.

Dog guard (Patita)

Warhorse, light (Buñuelo) 59 lb
Saddle military 30 lb, Short Spear x3 (assume military saddle has spear basket) 9 lb, Barding leather 15 lb, Bit & Bridle 1lb, Waterskin 4 lb,

Warhorse light (Certh's?)  35 lb
Saddle military 30 lb, Bit & Bridle 1lb, Waterskin 4 lb

Warhorse light spare (Mika? Maggie?)  35 lb
Saddle military 30 lb, Bit & Bridle 1 lb, Waterskin 4 lb

Cart + 2 Donkeys  (*= in cart)
(106 + 16 + 5.5 + 580 + 112.5 + 19 + 70 + 77 + 17 = 1003 lb carried)

*Miscellanea loose  106 lb
Saddlebags x3 24 lb, Shield tower 45 lb, Shortspear x3 9 lb, 10' Pole  8 lb, Torches x20  20 lb

*Bucket (so liquid accidents don't get everywhere...) 16 lb
Oil x8  8 lb, Waterskin x2  8 lb

*Backpack 5.5 lb
Bedroll 5 lb, Lamp 1 lb, Chalk x2, Soap 1 lb, Signal Whistle, Mirror 0.5 lb, Peasant Outfit (pajamas) 2 lb,

*Barrel x2  580 lb (30lb barrel + 260 lb wgt (US 32.5 gal barrel, 8lb per gal = 260lb))
1 Water, 1 small beer (2%)

*Weapon/Armor/Tool Chest  112.5 lb (25lb chest + 86.5lb contents)
Banded Mail 35 lb, Shield heavy wood 10 lb, Longsword 4 lb, Morningstar 6 lb, Dagger x4 4 lb, Shovel 8 lb, Hammer 2 lb, Pick 10 lb, Whetstone 1 lb, Arrows (50) 7.5 lb, Lock 1 lb (lock attached, chest unlocked)

*Sack climbing 19 lb
Climber's Kit 5 lb, Grappling Hook 4 lb, Rope 50' hemp 10 lb,

*Sack dry rations 70 lb   (only buy 50, as I already have 20. 50 rations x 5sp = 25gp)
Dry Rations x70 70lb
(covers 14 days for 5 people: Cudberct, Certh, Hasor, Mika, & Maggie)

*Sack x2  perishable meals  77 lb    (2sp x 11 people x 7 days = 15.4gp)
Common meals/day x77  77 lb?

*Basket 17 lb
Pot iron 10 lb, Flour x5  5 lb, Sack x4  2 lb

Quote from: Fenyx4;604208Justin: Can the cart carry that?

The cart is drawn by two donkeys. Each donkey can drag 750 lbs. The cart weighs 200 lbs.

(750 lbs. x 2) - 200 lbs. = 1300 lbs.

Since the current plan is for Mika and Maggie to ride in the cart, that'll subtract another 300 lbs.

So let's give the cart 1,000 lbs. of effective carrying capacity.

QuoteIs there a wand of cure light wounds available?

It's under the town's GP limit, so yes. It's one of the foreign exotics that Hucrele's makes available.

CURRENT SUPPLY LIST: I've conflated the shopping lists to avoid duplication, but the current total weight is 1,347 lbs. If you kick both Maggie and Mika out of the cart, that means you're still 47 lbs. overweight.

So you need to (1) figure out what to leave behind and (2) probably figure out alternative transportation for Mika and Maggie. (It looks like you've currently got one spare horse, so the obvious solution would be buying another.)

The current list is in the first post of this thread.

No one with the money has okayed my list yet so the cart being overweight may be a  moot point.

PCGen SRD 3.5 gives this:

Cart
Type: goods. transportation. container. Wt.: 400 lbs. Size: M Cost: 15 GP
Container: 3120 lbs., Any
Source: Wizards of the Coast - Revised (v.3.5) System Reference Document, Equipment.rtf

and

Wagon
Type: goods. transportation. container. Wt.: 400 lbs. Size: M Cost: 35 GP
Container: 4000 lbs., Any
Source: Wizards of the Coast - Revised (v.3.5) System Reference Document, Equipment.rtf

I own both.

Further previous editions gave similar weight tolerances due to the nature of wheels making the load easier to transport. Drag weight is in reference to a travois.

Not my call, but putting it out there.

Quote from: Fenyx4;604208Here is Aminda's fill-up-the-cart shopping list!

I count eleven people in the party total: Lady Jastian, Gileus, Aminda, Sgt. Llewellyn, Winthrop, Cudberct, Hasor, Haddon, Certh, Mika, & Maggie.

I count ten equine mounts: Justice, Paladin, Barnaby, Aminda's Donkey, Gileus' Donkey, Buñuelo, Cudberct's spare Warhorses light x2, Cudberct's donkeys x2,
I count two canines: Ashur, Patita

                                           Quan....Cost.......Weight      
2 days of feed for each horse.........24.......6............240
The animals can graze but this is a good idea in case of Ashen Plain or arid ravine travel. Depends on JA's judgment call on cart carrying capacity.
      
17 days of Rations for everyone......144.....72...........144
Possibly a bit high, but sure. We're all going to have to OK it with Sgt. Llewellyn's deputy later. I'm calling for 14 days for the 5 people 'm immediately responsible for. You may edit lower or still call for it as reserves
   
3 days of perishable good meals......36......10.8.........36
I still count only 11 people. I chose Good meals for 11 people for 7 days at 40% off. Total comes to 15.4 GP. Trail rations for the same people/days comes to 38.5 GP. We have a professional cook at camp. There's simply no reason to pay more.
   
Donkeys*2 for Mika&Maggie............2........16...........
Riding saddles..............................2........20............-
Unnecessary. There's already a spare Warhorse light, and *should be* plenty of more weight space for the cart.
         
water skin...................................4........4.............16
I already own 5 waterskins. Hasor, Aminda, Haddon, and Lady Jastian already has a waterskin.

For some reason Sgt. Llewellyn, Winthrop, Gileus, and Certh do not.

They are welcome to borrow from my 4 extra. But that leaves 2 necessary for Mika & Maggie to come from town reserves.

We have a mobile basecamp with barrels of water & small beer, each 32.5 gallons of liquid. We should only need 1 waterskin per person.
   
Bedroll........................................4........0.4...........20
Climber's kit.................................2........160..........20
For whom? I don't know. I trust your judgment here, but Mika and Maggie are locals and in the militia -- it would be odd if they didn't have their own bedrolls.

I am already bringing a climber's kit, but it's a nice thought. Do we really need three altogether in the party?

wand of cure light wounds..............1........750
No comment. Sgt. Llewellyn will determine an OK for such an expense.
         
...............................................Total....1033.2 gp...476 lbs      

Aminda doesn't have the gold for it. Can someone with the necessary funds sign off on it? Then we can get this show on the road!

Justin: Can the cart carry that? Is there a wand of cure light wounds available?

I know I can be a pain, but I (and Cudberct, actually) don't mess around with supply caravans (except for D&D 4e, where you could scream yourself back to health!). That and he'd have direct familiarity with supply lines expectations.

Quote from: Opaopajr;604633I count eleven people in the party total

Woops. I counted Haddon twice. some how had him in both the parley and the cart party.

Updated list:
Quan....Cost.......Weight
2 days of feed for each horse.........22.......5.5..........240
17 days of Rations for everyone......127.....63...........144
3 days of perishable good meals......33......9.9.........33
Donkey for last person...................1........8...........-
Riding saddles..............................1........10.. ..........-
water skin...................................4........4. ............16
Bedroll........................................4.. ......0.4...........20
Climber's kit.................................2........160.. ........20
wand of cure light wounds..............1........750
...............................................Total....1005.8 gp...436 lbs

Yes the horse feed is for travel across the Ashen Plain.

Quote from: Opaopajr;604633The animals can graze but this is a good idea in case of Ashen Plain or arid ravine travel. Depends on JA's judgment call on cart carrying capacity.

Yup, it is for the Ashen Plain. As we don't know about the gully yet we gotta plan for that.

Quote from: Opaopajr;604633Possibly a bit high, but sure. We're all going to have to OK it with Sgt. Llewellyn's deputy later. I'm calling for 14 days for the 5 people 'm immediately responsible for. You may edit lower or still call for it as reserves.

*shrugs* I'm just sticking with my earlier calculations.

Quote from: Opaopajr;604633Unnecessary. There's already a spare Warhorse light, and *should be* plenty of more weight space for the cart.

I don't see any reason not to get everyone a mount. Let's us retreat at speed if necessary. More storage space. More room for the rescued.

For the waterskins a few extra just in case AND for the people we are rescuing.

Quote from: Opaopajr;604633For whom? I don't know. I trust your judgment here, but Mika and Maggie are locals and in the militia -- it would be odd if they didn't have their own bedrolls.

The four people we are rescuing.

Quote from: Opaopajr;604633I am already bringing a climber's kit, but it's a nice thought. Do we really need three altogether in the party?

Spares and for the ability to have three people climb at the same time. Seems handy to have in a ravine.

Wand:

Quote from: Opaopajr;604633No comment. Sgt. Llewellyn will determine an OK for such an expense.

I'm sticking this IC text here as what to bring would have been hashed out so long ago. Don't want to interrupt the IC thread with it.

"I fear I only have the strength to ask the gods to mend wounds a few times per day. And most of that is only good for stubbed toes. With such a large group if we get into any serious skirmish we'll be needing more healing."

Quote from: Fenyx4;604897I don't see any reason not to get everyone a mount. Let's us retreat at speed if necessary. More storage space. More room for the rescued.

A donkey still only moves at the speed of a human. Either the lost party has zero mounts and are wounded and cannot run, or they have their mounts and/or can run. Only 1/3 situations makes it worthwhile. And in that situation a donkey is just as slow. Humans can't outrun many natural animals anyways. There's no real reason for it.

Mounts (carrying load)  -- Per Hour  --  Per Day
Donkey or mule        --     3 miles   --  24 miles
Donkey (51-150 lb.)    --   2 miles  --   16 miles
Mule (231-690 lb.)      --   2 miles   --  16 miles

Again, that's an expense for Sgt. Llewellyn to make, since I'm not covering hardly any of these expenditures.

Quote from: Fenyx4;604897For the waterskins a few extra just in case AND for the people we are rescuing.

Unless we're worried about cold sores and hepatitis, or the party scattering to the four winds away from the cart into terra incognita, it doesn't make any sense again. This is a rescue mission, I have no intent to explore beyond returning the lost back to Oakhurst right now.

Quote from: Fenyx4;604897[bedrolls for] The four people we are rescuing.

In that case a tent would be best. Again, they either have their mounts and gear, including bedrolls, or they don't are in dire straits and need to be rushed back. If the latter, I'm sure I and a few others can sleep in the cart or on the dirt for a few days during our return.

Again, it's up to Sgt. Llewellyn to make such a town expenditure.

Quote from: Fenyx4;604897Spares and for the ability to have three people climb at the same time. Seems handy to have in a ravine.

Perhaps, but a third won't do all that much. Racing up and down the ravine will be suicide for most in the party, so extra kits won't get all of us up faster or safer -- and we're not doing coordinated acrobatics. Again, maybe useful, but not my place to decide for expenditure.

Lady Jastian was suggesting that we leave the road about 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 miles short of the gorge, depending on how rough the terrain is and the most likely places for ambush.  If we cut away too soon, we'll spend too much time stomping through the woods, as has been noted in the IC thread.

Aw, man. I go away for a day to celebrate my birthday party and everything turns into an Excel spreadsheet.

Quote from: Opaopajr;604626Cart
Type: goods. transportation. container. Wt.: 400 lbs. Size: M Cost: 15 GP
Container: 3120 lbs., Any
Source: Wizards of the Coast - Revised (v.3.5) System Reference Document, Equipment.rtf

Unfortunately, I have no idea where PCGen is pulling its figures.

(1) The SRD file they're referencing doesn't say anything about how much a cart can carry. It does, however, say that a cart weighs 200 lbs., so PCGen is just flat-out wrong on one stat and appears to be making the other one up.

(2) The 3.5 PHB agrees with those figures: 15 gp, weight 200 lbs.

(3) The 3.0 PHB actually did have a Holds/Carries column, though. It gives a cart a 1/2 ton capacity. (That would be 1,000 lbs.)

(4) Doing a little further research, the Arms & Equipment Guide offers the following formula: Calculate the total weight of a drawn vehicle, then divide by 4 if it's a wheeled vehicle. Divide the resulting pull weight evenly among the dray creatures. But this is limited to the load of the dray creatures, not the amount they can drag.

Reversing that math we can see that:

- 150 lbs. (heavy load for a donkey)
- 150 lbs. x 2 donkeys = 300 lbs. maximum pull weight
- 300 lbs. x 4 = 1,200 lbs. maximum weight
- 1,200 lbs. - 200 lbs (weight of cart) = 1,000 lbs.

Which superficially matches the figure given in the 3.0 PHB, but that's mostly coincidence because the cart in the 3.0 PHB is designed for a single dray donkey.

All right, let me boil all that conflicting information down like this. (I'm giving preference to the 3.0 PHB figures for ease of use, but interpolating some other options for flexibility.) You have three vehicles available to you:

(1) VILLAGE CART - 1 DONKEY - 1,000 LB. CARRYING CAPACITY
(2) CUDBERCT'S CART - 2 DONKEYS - 1,300 LB. CARRYING CAPACITY
(3) CUDBERCT'S WAGON - 2 LIGHT HORSES - 3,000 LB. CARRYING CAPACITY
(4) CUDBERCT'S WAGON - 2 HEAVY HORSES - 4,000 LB. CARRYING CAPACITY

(The advantage of the light horses pulling the wagon will be that you move faster. They can't pull the cart because the hitch is designed for donkeys.)

Under this scenario, Cudberct's cart now costs 25 gp and weighs 300 lbs. (being of non-standard double-wide construction.) If you opt to go with horses, those will need to be paid and accounted for since they haven't been previously purchased. (The donkeys will just have to stay in the stable.)

The good news: If you go with a horse-drawn wagon, your speed will improve if the people currently riding donkeys ditch the donkeys and hitch a ride in the wagon. In fact, you might end up going much faster (as I'll use the A&E figures to determine whether or not the dray creatures are operating under load or not).

CUDBERCT ROLL 3 + HANDLE ANIMAL 7 = 9

The bad news: Cudberct didn't realize that. Which means, as Cudberct and Aminda's voices rise higher and higher, that Hasor, not knowing what the supply plans were,

HASOR ROLL 16 + HANDLE ANIMAL 4 = 20

suddenly realizes with a sickening drop in his stomach that he has readied the wrong vehicle.

Take that to the IC if you like. I'm going to see if I can figure out what's going on with the actual equipment lists.

I'm limiting perishable food to 5 days. If you want to carry more than that, I make no guarantees on how it will keep. FYI.

CUDBERCT'S SUPPLIES

Rations (70 days) - 70 lbs.
Perishable Food (55 days) = 55 lbs.
Saddlebags (3) - 24 lbs.
Tower Shield - 45 lbs.
Shortspear (3) - 9 lbs.
10' Pole - 8 lbs.
Torches (20) - 20 lbs.
Bucket - 16 lbs.
Oil ( - 8 lbs.
Water Skins (2) - 16 lbs.
Barrel of Water - 290 lbs.
Barrel of Wine - 290 lbs.
Backpack* - 5.5 lbs. + 9.5 lbs.
Locked Chest** - 25 lbs. + 88.5 lbs.
Climbing Sack*** - 0.5 lbs. + 34 lbs.
Basket**** - 1 lb. + 17 lbs.

* Bedroll (5 lbs.), Lamp (1 lb.), Chalk (x2), Soap (1 lb.), Signal Whistle, Mirror (0.5 lbs.), Peasant Pajamas (2 lb.)

** Banded Mail (35 lbs.), Heavy Wooden Shield (10 lbs.), Longsword (4 lbs.), Morningstar (6 lbs.), Dagger (x4, 4 lbs.), Shovel (8 lbs.), Hammer (2 lbs.), Pick (10 lbs.), Whetstone (1 lb.), Arrows (x50, 7.5 lbs.), Lock (1 lb.)

*** Climber's Kit (x2, 20 lbs.), Grappling Hook (4 lbs.), Hemp Rope (50', 10 lbs.)

**** Iron Pot (10 lbs.), Flour (x5, 5 lbs.), Sacks (x4, 2 lbs.)

TOTAL WEIGHT: 1,032 lbs.

AMINDA'S SUPPLEMENTS

Horse Feed (22 days) - 220 lbs.
Rations (74 days) - 74 lbs.
Water Skins (2) - 16 lbs.
Bedroll (4) - 20 lbs.
Wand of Cure Light Wounds

TOTAL ADDITIONAL WEIGHT: 330 lbs.

CONCLUSIONS

(1) If you only haul Cudberct's supplies, he's currently 32 pounds overweight for a single-donkey cart.

(2) If you bring all of these supplies, you're currently 62 pounds overweight for a two-donkey cart.

(3) If you go with either of the wagon options, you're fine-and-dandy. And probably will remain that way even if people abandon their mounts and ride in the wagon.

(4) My understanding is that the plan was to load the people you're going to rescue into the cart/wagon for the trip back. Bear in mind that they also have weight.

(5) Llewellyn signed off on helping out with the cost of supplies. So I don't think cost is an issue.

Quote from: Sir Wulf;605155Lady Jastian was suggesting that we leave the road about 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 miles short of the gorge, depending on how rough the terrain is and the most likely places for ambush.  If we cut away too soon, we'll spend too much time stomping through the woods, as has been noted in the IC thread.

We were stopped at the edge of the forest, so I assumed that was the start of the woods stomping. I don't know exactly how big the forest is, which is why I asked about timeline. But our speed has massively dropped since I think our base speed has gone from 40 to 20 and I'm sure the woods offer all sorts of penalties.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;605186Aw, man. I go away for a day to celebrate my birthday party and everything turns into an Excel spreadsheet.

Happy birthday!

Happy birthday!  It also happens to be my birthday today!

It is my father-in-law's birthday too! (okay that isn't quite as relevant...)

Happy birthday Justin and Tom!