Nothing takes the 'magic' out of a campaign quicker than a magic shop. I dislike them as a DM and hate them as a player. It turns magic items into... equipment.

Edit: by magic shop I don't mean Melan's cool example I mean the magic Walmart.

I've expanded on the wandering magic item salesman and posted it on my blog for those interested:  http://sordnbord.blogspot.com/2012/10/wegmars-wondrous-wagon-of-wonders.html

Quote from: taustin;593190Oh, but buffs do exist in the real world. They're just technological in nature, instead of magical. I wouldn't bet on the gun shop owner against a SWAT team armed with automatic weapons, body armor, tear gas and night vision gear. All things that the attacker knows when to kit up with, but doesn't walk around with all the time.

I'm already assuming that a robber, who by definition is an armed thief is armed. As opposed to a burglar, who by definition is not armed.

There's also the small matter of why would you rob a gunshop owner if you already have bigger and better guns. Bigger fish, and all.

QuoteHow does any of that not equally apply to any other defender? There are advantages in any situation for both attacker and defender, and the only advantage to usually matters is knowing more about the enemy than he knows about you.

Because spells. Seriously. That's what it comes down to. Any petty, trivial advantage you can get from having the high ground or whatever, if it matters at all is more than overshadowed by the advantage given by a few, or even one short term buff.

Also, want to know about an enemy in advance? Spells is the only reliable way of doing it.

Quote from: TristramEvans;593147Big Friendly Giants?

Big fucking gun...

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

In your fantasy do you allow players to buy and sell magic items as common goods?  Or do they remain specialties?

In your non-fantasy, what about the BFGs?  Hard to find, hard to fence?  Or liquid?

Personally, I try and customize my treasures to the party.  I wouldn't ever drop something as a Christmas present, but I try to get within a few degrees.  I'm not going to include Ogre Hooks, for example, unless I think they might actually get used.  When it comes time to sell the items, I'd only offer a portion of the value as cash, depending on where they were when they tried to sell it.  As for a shop where you can buy major magic items with cash?  No thanks.  Though I would include a means to commission such items being made.

Same with RIFTS, and black market weapons.  I did similar in Star Wars, too.  Storm Trooper blasters wouldn't resell very well.  I don't recall the exact amount, but I think it was something like 10% of the value.

I don't like magic shops...I don't even like common "healing potions" or "light rocks".  As a rule, it tends to make magic feel less...magical.

Quote from: Melan;593278And this is how I also handle it. A ''magic shop'' is a curio store: a place with a stuffed crocodile, a dusty crystal ball, herbs and spices, an ugly-looking idol, dusty books, old carpets with embroidered stars, and--
-- did you say special merchandise? Here is a pouchful of black lotus: harvested by blind slaves in the deepest jungles. That brass box was recovered from one of the ruined cities on the Plain of Glass, and five men have died to bring it here safely. What does it contain? A mystery; the seals are still unbroken. This here is a magical scimitar: it cuts through sinew and bone like butter. I would not brave the wilderness without it. And I also have a box with these three flasks - one of the drinks restores health and vigour; the second provides a tremendous boost of strength; and the third is an antidote to any poison or disease. Mind that statue, Sir: it kills without notice if bothered. Nasty thing, but useful against thieves. Very good. Which of the above interests you? Or do you wish to sell something? The usurers at the temple will pay within three days if we strike a bargain.

Yeah...ONE of these in a setting is really, really cool.

Quote from: Internet Death;593168Ah, that does make sense.  Though I have to say, any sort of conspicuous magic shop would end up being targeted by an intelligent enemy (with henchmen, of course).  If the magic shop "owner" was such a bad-ass, he wouldn't be working a magic shop, he'd be slaying dragons or whatever.

Quote from: estar;593184It no different than any other high value luxury items. The basic restraint is social control. The fact if an individual is that skilled then he or she also has something to lose.

On the other side of the equation, the idea that a magic shop owner would be implicitly bad-ass has 2 problems, from my viewpoint:

1) It's enormously edition-dependent. In 0-2e, you had to be pretty high level and (further depending on edition) potentially give up a con point to make a lowly +1 sword. In 3e (and I trust 4e, though I don't play it enough to know), +1 swords can be made at pretty low levels.

Though I dislike the ubiquity of magic items this brings to the game, it does have the advantage that it puts making magic items on par with the levels where they are useful.  Even the 1e where magic items were hard to make, by the time you could make a +1 sword, it was considered pretty mundane.

2) Adventuring is an inherently risky process that the typical person wouldn't subject themselves to. A spellcasting NPC might be dangerous to tangle with (or they might not; all their spells and special abilities might be selected to be craftmen or salemen), but that doesn't mean they are half as risk tolerant as adventurers.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;593349On the other side of the equation, the idea that a magic shop owner would be implicitly bad-ass has 2 problems, from my viewpoint:

1) It's enormously edition-dependent. In 0-2e, you had to be pretty high level and (further depending on edition) potentially give up a con point to make a lowly +1 sword. In 3e (and I trust 4e, though I don't play it enough to know), +1 swords can be made at pretty low levels.

Though I dislike the ubiquity of magic items this brings to the game, it does have the advantage that it puts making magic items on par with the levels where they are useful.  Even the 1e where magic items were hard to make, by the time you could make a +1 sword, it was considered pretty mundane.

2) Adventuring is an inherently risky process that the typical person wouldn't subject themselves to. A spellcasting NPC might be dangerous to tangle with (or they might not; all their spells and special abilities might be selected to be craftmen or salemen), but that doesn't mean they are half as risk tolerant as adventurers.

I hinted at this already, but it's the bigger fish thing at work again. You need at least 5 levels to make a +1 weapon. So to get a basic +1 weapon, you're going after at least a level 5 Cleric, Druid, Wizard... whatever. If your goal is to kill things and take their stuff, targeting the end user of that sword would likely be a lot easier.

Sure you can eventually hit the point where you can take any given proprietor, no problem... but it isn't worth the risk for anyone that'd actually care about what they could steal from him.

And this is comparing best case to worst case: It's just one guy selling stuff, vs the harshest possible alternatives. If it's say... the Wizard's Guild, or a church of any deity, or a Druidic circle... you're not just messing with one guy. If you consider that people like having a source of tools of the trade, and would resent anyone attacking them... well, you're not just messing with one guy.

It'd be interesting to have a setting where magic items are incredibly common, but non-magical items are precious and rare. Maybe eevery magic item is inhabited by its own daemon, so it has its own personality, foibles, etc. So actually getting a hold of a sword or a plow that does what its supposed to all the time and doesnt talk back or throw tantrums is a relief.

Quote from: mcbobbo;593292Big fucking gun...

Ah. Assuming a modern setting, it would be really rare I'd allow players access to these. If the character had a military background, they still would need to go through a lot of legal loops to use any of the heavy artillery weapons, and law enforcement would be all over their backs, fast.

In a sci-fi setting I'm a bit more relaxed if its a grimdark over-the-top future like SLA Industries or Warhammer 40K, but if its space opera like star Wars or Buck Rogers, then they tend to be out-of-genre.

Quote from: talysman;593225Anything else? There's not enough magic items in existence to justify even a magic item *broker*, let alone an actual shop. There were maybe 20 to 30 magic swords made, total. EVER. In the entire history of the world. Other stuff is even rarer. Just about every magical item in the known world is being discovered by adventurers RIGHT NOW.

That may be true of your campaign's setting. In others Magic Items are another form of luxury item.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;593349On the other side of the equation, the idea that a magic shop owner would be implicitly bad-ass has 2 problems, from my viewpoint:

1) It's enormously edition-dependent. In 0-2e, you had to be pretty high level and (further depending on edition) potentially give up a con point to make a lowly +1 sword. In 3e (and I trust 4e, though I don't play it enough to know), +1 swords can be made at pretty low levels.

Though I dislike the ubiquity of magic items this brings to the game, it does have the advantage that it puts making magic items on par with the levels where they are useful.  Even the 1e where magic items were hard to make, by the time you could make a +1 sword, it was considered pretty mundane.

2) Adventuring is an inherently risky process that the typical person wouldn't subject themselves to. A spellcasting NPC might be dangerous to tangle with (or they might not; all their spells and special abilities might be selected to be craftmen or salemen), but that doesn't mean they are half as risk tolerant as adventurers.

Bad-ass mechanically is not the same as bad-ass socially. The magic shop owner could be just a 3rd level magic-user capable of little more than properly detecting and identifying magic items. But socially... well lets just say he on a first name basis with the Overlord.

Or not... my point is that what ever you like as far as magic item rarity and its role in commerce can be plausible by putting some thought into the campaign background.

The reason it works for my Majestic Wilderlands is because over 30 years I created a plausible social context for a magic item economy to exist.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;593191Don't mind magic "curio" shops. Like any other item, if there are people willing to buy and people willing to sell, trade will happen.

What I don't like is magic wal-marts. In most settings that I care to run, magic is not mass produced and players cannot expect to get whatever item they want off the shelf.

In my game, buying magic is more like buying artwork before they time of printing. People might sell items, but they would be unique. If you wanted a specific item, you would have to have it made.

This is pretty much how I do things.  Except that items over a certain gp limit (15,000 gp in my case) are too valuable to be bought for things as vulgar as coin.  You find that kind of stuff by trading magic items of equivalent value, or adventuring.

Quote from: estar;593397That may be true of your campaign's setting. In others Magic Items are another form of luxury item.

You do realize that's what the OP asks for, right? Our opinions on magic shops, and what we would do in our campaign?

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

In your fantasy do you allow players to buy and sell magic items as common goods?  Or do they remain specialties?

In your non-fantasy, what about the BFGs?  Hard to find, hard to fence?  Or liquid?

Personally, I try and customize my treasures to the party.  I wouldn't ever drop something as a Christmas present, but I try to get within a few degrees.  I'm not going to include Ogre Hooks, for example, unless I think they might actually get used.  When it comes time to sell the items, I'd only offer a portion of the value as cash, depending on where they were when they tried to sell it.  As for a shop where you can buy major magic items with cash?  No thanks.  Though I would include a means to commission such items being made.

Same with RIFTS, and black market weapons.  I did similar in Star Wars, too.  Storm Trooper blasters wouldn't resell very well.  I don't recall the exact amount, but I think it was something like 10% of the value.

Magic is semi-common, but powerful magic is very rare.

Scrolls and potions are available, as are mundane items (Saucpan of better sauce, evercoal, etc.)

And that stuff can be bought and sold, Though the selling price is normally 1/4 the buying price.    Hello, mercantilism.  And these are guilds or churches selling it, not really stores.


However, Real charged item, no, no real stores, almost impossible to buy and actually often hard to sell.  In GS, magic items are almost all charged with spells 1-3 times per day, so the magic item is a spell infused item. And this means my older groups are still really thrilled with what would be considered a decent +2/+3 weapon in D&D with a 3 yr old character.  The curve really flattens.

And I place items based on logic andf not placed on player needs or wants.