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Author Topic: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)  (Read 2217 times)

Angry Goblin

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2022, 02:44:55 AM »
A lot of the things that Angry Goblin is complaining about are present in the material at least as of 3rd edition published by Avalon Hill in 1984, and I'm pretty sure they were there in earlier editions. Goddesses are often important, like the Red Goddess who had shaken things up in recent times, or Cult of Ernaldi, which was the example cult in 3rd edition. Trolls were always matriarchal.

I'd leave open whether these qualify as feminism. To my mind, they reflect pretty well a lot of Bronze Age ideas rather than being modernist.
Thanks, that's sort of what I thought. It always seemed to me that Runequest / Glorantha's strength and weakness came from the same place - a depth that could be 'unfathomable.'

Unfathomable, couldn´t have said it better myself.

Angry Goblin

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2022, 02:47:29 AM »
As to being f*inist/SJW, there's always been room in the game for playing that sort of game, but it was never so "up front" as it seems these days. But it really doesn't matter. There's so much that is so NOT that way inclined you can have endless fun.
For example, Broos worship the god of rape. If that's not "triggering", I don't know what is.

Is that still in the present  game?
[/quote]
Not sure, I'll have to check, but it's in MY game, YGMV :-) It's still in the wiki, but not on the Deliath page, so maybe it's been "Gregged". From the books I have, it looks like it's not mentioned when Thed is mentioned in passing, but I haven't found a write up of Thed or her cult yet. AFAIR, it was only mentioned in "printed" RQ2 in Cults of Terror.
[/quote]

King of Sartar (the book) is pretty much the condensed the canon game lore and the story of how Thed became the goddess of rape is there atleast. I think it has not been mentioned in the RGQ material though.

TheShadow

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2022, 03:50:05 AM »
Patriarchal Glorantha? Pretty sure to a lot of people that means "okay we know your Glorantha may vary, but this is objectively wrong and you are a bad person"   ;D
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Naburimannu

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2022, 03:52:19 AM »
Not sure, I'll have to check, but it's in MY game, YGMV :-) It's still in the wiki, but not on the Deliath page, so maybe it's been "Gregged". From the books I have, it looks like it's not mentioned when Thed is mentioned in passing, but I haven't found a write up of Thed or her cult yet. AFAIR, it was only mentioned in "printed" RQ2 in Cults of Terror.

There's a brief write up of Thed in the RQ3 Glorantha box set Cults Book as goddess of rape and broos. I got rid of my RQ3 Cults of Terror a few years back so I can't check there, and it doesn't seem to come up obviously in RQ3 Dorastor Lands of Doom.

Angry Goblin

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2022, 03:53:16 AM »
Patriarchal Glorantha? Pretty sure to a lot of people that means "okay we know your Glorantha may vary, but this is objectively wrong and you are a bad person"   ;D

Indeed, I am a bad person and this is exactly the reason why I didn´t post it on Chaosium forum ;)

Angry Goblin

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2022, 03:57:43 AM »
Not sure, I'll have to check, but it's in MY game, YGMV :-) It's still in the wiki, but not on the Deliath page, so maybe it's been "Gregged". From the books I have, it looks like it's not mentioned when Thed is mentioned in passing, but I haven't found a write up of Thed or her cult yet. AFAIR, it was only mentioned in "printed" RQ2 in Cults of Terror.

There's a brief write up of Thed in the RQ3 Glorantha box set Cults Book as goddess of rape and broos. I got rid of my RQ3 Cults of Terror a few years back so I can't check there, and it doesn't seem to come up obviously in RQ3 Dorastor Lands of Doom.

I checked the Glorantha Sourcebook and it has Thed mentioned, though the book does not mention about what Thed is a goddess of  ::)
(p. 120, 123)

PulpHerb

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2022, 11:59:38 PM »
I'd leave open whether these qualify as feminism. To my mind, they reflect pretty well a lot of Bronze Age ideas rather than being modernist.

Agreed. I have rarely read much, if any, Glorantha Lore as being anything resembling modern feminism.

Plus, if we want to read it in modern tones, a lot of Orlanthi lore, especially around the history of Sartar is misogynist. Look at the requirement that female worshippers of Lhankhor Mhy or what Kallyr Starbrow had to do at various time to take on male roles.

What Glorantha does have is specific sexual roles and methods to step outside them, generally to the other sex's role. The exact parameters of both vary by culture. In both of those things, they parallel the real world, not Western feminism.

PulpHerb

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2022, 12:03:11 AM »
Red Goddess is above the emperor of Lunar Empire. Notchet is the largest/richest city governed by a Queen and feminine Earth cult. And these are only couple of examples.

The Goddess of the Red Moon is superior to the Emperor of the Empire she created and who is her eternally reincarnating son.

At the same time the Goddess of the Red Moon is considered a force of chaos that threatens the world and threatens to restore Gbaji, through the worship of Nysalor, to the world.

That doesn't sound like modern feminism. If anything, it sounds like a Jordan Peterson lecture. That might not be to your tastes, but I wouldn't label it the spawn of Andrea Dworkin.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 08:49:30 AM by PulpHerb »

PulpHerb

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2022, 12:15:49 AM »
Not sure, I'll have to check, but it's in MY game, YGMV :-) It's still in the wiki, but not on the Deliath page, so maybe it's been "Gregged". From the books I have, it looks like it's not mentioned when Thed is mentioned in passing, but I haven't found a write up of Thed or her cult yet. AFAIR, it was only mentioned in "printed" RQ2 in Cults of Terror.

There's a brief write up of Thed in the RQ3 Glorantha box set Cults Book as goddess of rape and broos. I got rid of my RQ3 Cults of Terror a few years back so I can't check there, and it doesn't seem to come up obviously in RQ3 Dorastor Lands of Doom.

I checked the Glorantha Sourcebook and it has Thed mentioned, though the book does not mention about what Thed is a goddess of  ::)
(p. 120, 123)


That is correct for the box set of Cults and the Glorantha Classics cults compendium book.

In The Guide to Glorantha on page 704 we have the following:

Quote
Thed
Rape, Goddes of Broos

The accursed mother of the broos was an abused slave of Ragnaglar and one of the Unholy Trio. When she brought her children into the world, Thed inflicted on them all of her pain and hatred. She was the mother of Wakboth*, and his malevolence twisted and distorted her further.

Given  The Guide to Glorantha is the definitive resource as the last big thing Greg wrote, I'd say that's official.

I'd point out the entry for Sedenya, The Red Goddess is on the same page in the section on Chaos.

* Same page's entry for Wakboth gives him description of "Evil, the Devil".

Angry Goblin

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2022, 05:53:35 AM »
Red Goddess is above the emperor of Lunar Empire. Notchet is the largest/richest city governed by a Queen and feminine Earth cult. And these are only couple of examples.

The Goddess of the Red Moon is superior to the Emperor of the Empire she created and who is her eternally reincarnating sun.

At the same time the Goddess of the Red Moon is considered a force of chaos that threatens the world and threatens to restore Gjabi, through the worship of Nysalor, to the world.

That doesn't sound like modern feminism. If anything, it sounds like a Jordan Peterson lecture. That might not be to your tastes, but I wouldn't label it the spawn of Andrea Dworkin.

Thanks for the reply.

You are right of course, they might not be "modern feminism", though as you pointed out, too much feminocentrism for my taste.

Godsmonkey

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2022, 07:35:33 AM »
Red Goddess is above the emperor of Lunar Empire. Notchet is the largest/richest city governed by a Queen and feminine Earth cult. And these are only couple of examples.

The Goddess of the Red Moon is superior to the Emperor of the Empire she created and who is her eternally reincarnating sun.

At the same time the Goddess of the Red Moon is considered a force of chaos that threatens the world and threatens to restore Gjabi, through the worship of Nysalor, to the world.

That doesn't sound like modern feminism. If anything, it sounds like a Jordan Peterson lecture. That might not be to your tastes, but I wouldn't label it the spawn of Andrea Dworkin.

Thanks for the reply.

You are right of course, they might not be "modern feminism", though as you pointed out, too much feminocentrism for my taste.

Instead of reworking all of Glorantha, maybe use a different RQ derived game like Mythras? Heck, the new Dragon Bane kick starter has Ducks in it, if that's your jam.


PulpHerb

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2022, 09:02:17 AM »

You are right of course, they might not be "modern feminism", though as you pointed out, too much feminocentrism for my taste.

Instead of reworking all of Glorantha, maybe use a different RQ derived game like Mythras? Heck, the new Dragon Bane kick starter has Ducks in it, if that's your jam.

I'd second this. Two of the ideas in your initial posts (1 & 4) require such deep changes as to render everything short of maps useless in their face. Two others (5 & 6) would mean ignoring Greg's principle sources and goals in creating Glorantha (every single scrap of world mythology he could get his hands on).  I honestly think the fundamental issue you are facing is Glorantha is a world built on a foundation of wide reading in mythology, much of it not part of the Western literary tradition, instead of some form of fantasy literature.

As was pointed out up thread, there are several settings for Mythrus (essentially the prior edition of RQ because it came back to Chaosium) that might serve you better. The Mythic series covers some real-world cultures (Britain, Rome, Constantinople) that would be a better match as well as Lyonesse by Jack Vance.

If you must have Glorantha then I'd recommend trying:

1. Playing in the Second Age with Mongoose materials. The God Learners and the Empire of the Wyrms's Friends have more male centric setup.
2. Playing in the far West or East of Genertela, which seem to have societies closer to what you want. The best resources here are The Guide to Glorantha (which I suspect is deeper than you'd like to go) or some fan items published under the Jonstown Compendium license.

PulpHerb

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2022, 09:11:34 AM »
6) It seems to me that almost all gender roles are twisted in the starting cultures of the core book. I mean in just
    about all of them, women are the rational ones and males the emotional ones. I mean, it would basically mean
    that "women" are the ones with testosterone dominancy ja "males" the ones with estrogene dominancy. Wouldn´t
    that basically mean that in time, the genetic makeup of the gender are on a collision course with the chromosomes.
    Yes, I know, it´s a fantasy game, though I still see this as silly, I mean that would basically mean that males give
    birth and nurture the children and women are the warriors and earners, right?

Last comment.

As soon as you mention hormones and chromosomes I think you're missing the point of Glorantha. It is a world built in myth, mostly ancient myth with maybe a tiny bit from Axial Age religion. So much of how the world works cannot be explained in any way but magical and mythological. That is why everyone has magic.

Getting away from gender, consider the Morokanth and their Herdmen. There are mystical means to give Herdmen sapience and convert normal humans into Herdmen. Herdmen are grazing animals. There is no way humans can survive as plains grazers, yet there is an entire tribe of humans in Glorantha who, due to losing the drawing of lots after the death of Genert, were to be the fed upon. Not only do they exist, but they can be mystically converted back and forth with regular humans. While there are herbivorous optimized hominids in the fossil record they are not fungible with modern humans via some mystical ceremony. Meanwhile, there is a magical way for Morokanth, tapir-like creatures who won their drawing of lots, to obtain a thumb.

Angry Goblin

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2022, 05:59:41 AM »
Red Goddess is above the emperor of Lunar Empire. Notchet is the largest/richest city governed by a Queen and feminine Earth cult. And these are only couple of examples.

The Goddess of the Red Moon is superior to the Emperor of the Empire she created and who is her eternally reincarnating sun.

At the same time the Goddess of the Red Moon is considered a force of chaos that threatens the world and threatens to restore Gjabi, through the worship of Nysalor, to the world.

That doesn't sound like modern feminism. If anything, it sounds like a Jordan Peterson lecture. That might not be to your tastes, but I wouldn't label it the spawn of Andrea Dworkin.

Thanks for the reply.

You are right of course, they might not be "modern feminism", though as you pointed out, too much feminocentrism for my taste.

Instead of reworking all of Glorantha, maybe use a different RQ derived game like Mythras? Heck, the new Dragon Bane kick starter has Ducks in it, if that's your jam.

Thanks for the reply.

I´v considered Mythras, however since I have a ton of Glorantha-related products already, it would be of little use or they would be for idea mining, which would be almost the same as reworking Glorantha anyways. Considering Dragon Bane, especially since it´s not available any time soon, I´d have to come up with other ways anyhow.

Angry Goblin

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Re: Your Glorantha Will Vary (Patriarchal Glorantha)
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2022, 06:06:28 AM »

You are right of course, they might not be "modern feminism", though as you pointed out, too much feminocentrism for my taste.

Instead of reworking all of Glorantha, maybe use a different RQ derived game like Mythras? Heck, the new Dragon Bane kick starter has Ducks in it, if that's your jam.

I'd second this. Two of the ideas in your initial posts (1 & 4) require such deep changes as to render everything short of maps useless in their face. Two others (5 & 6) would mean ignoring Greg's principle sources and goals in creating Glorantha (every single scrap of world mythology he could get his hands on).  I honestly think the fundamental issue you are facing is Glorantha is a world built on a foundation of wide reading in mythology, much of it not part of the Western literary tradition, instead of some form of fantasy literature.

As was pointed out up thread, there are several settings for Mythrus (essentially the prior edition of RQ because it came back to Chaosium) that might serve you better. The Mythic series covers some real-world cultures (Britain, Rome, Constantinople) that would be a better match as well as Lyonesse by Jack Vance.

If you must have Glorantha then I'd recommend trying:

1. Playing in the Second Age with Mongoose materials. The God Learners and the Empire of the Wyrms's Friends have more male centric setup.
2. Playing in the far West or East of Genertela, which seem to have societies closer to what you want. The best resources here are The Guide to Glorantha (which I suspect is deeper than you'd like to go) or some fan items published under the Jonstown Compendium license.

I don´t mind shitting on the original sources tbh.

1. I actually got my hands on Dara Happa Stirs, I think I will move forward with that for starters as you said. Sun County is pretty decent also.
2. The Guide to Glorantha is fine, I have it currently and I am more than happy to expend the sweat if it gets the work done to my taste. I´v gone 
    through Jonstown selection, and it seems to me that there wasn´t much I could use immediately without tweaking, I´m afraid.