Quote from: flyingmice;660117I think you all are interpreting the "95%" bit wrong. I think he's talking about sessions - as in in 95% of your sessions, you'll end up killing things. Not that I agree with that, but it makes a lot more sense than spending 95% of your playing time killing things.

However, if that gets in the way of the war and righteous indignation, feel free to ignore this.

-clash

That's my take on it.

And fact is, I bet 95 per cent of D&D sessions do have some combat in them.

Most D&D-playing time in my experience (apart from 4e) involves the characters walking or talking.

The walking is not treated in much detail (it's just that there are so many decisions even at a gross level).

The talking is treated in considerable detail, but more time is spent on actual talk than on abstractions (most of the key AD&D formal rules being summarized in a single-page of tables listing about 90 factors).

Quote from: flyingmice;660117I think you all are interpreting the "95%" bit wrong. I think he's talking about sessions - as in in 95% of your sessions, you'll end up killing things. Not that I agree with that, but it makes a lot more sense than spending 95% of your playing time killing things.

However, if that gets in the way of the war and righteous indignation, feel free to ignore this.

Yeah, that's how I interpreted it, too.  In the source thread, the quoted poster clarified:

QuoteThat's why I said 95%. Because for every group having combat once every 3 sessions, there are 19 having 2-3 a session.

I might quibble about the numbers, but we all know that 98% of all statistics are pulled out of thin air.  I think the assessment is partly on-target in that D&D published material do have a focus on adventures that include killing.  However, the idea that you would get away from this with Iron Heroes or Dungeon World is nonsense.

Having at least one deadly fight in 19 out of 20 sessions? Sure, sounds closer than 6 in 20.

It's explicitly a game of swords and sorcery, though! If you want some sort of non-violent soap opera or romantic comedy or whatever, then yeah, D&D might be not your cup of tea.

This should not take genius-level figuring. Raven, Swordmistress of Chaos? D&D. Practical Magic? Maybe not.

So, guy makes outrageous claim, advises we play different, equally violent games to fix it, and insists that we watch an hour long podcast before discussing it?
 
Dr. Rotwang is still my hero.

In the grim future of the RPG hobby, players will starve to death for want of rules telling them how to eat between gaming sessions.

Quote from: jhkim;660150I might quibble about the numbers, but we all know that 98% of all statistics are pulled out of thin air.  I think the assessment is partly on-target in that D&D published material do have a focus on adventures that include killing.  However, the idea that you would get away from this with Iron Heroes or Dungeon World is nonsense.

Agreed. That last is purest bullshit. If you go into playing D&D with the intent to have a lot of fighting, you'll get your 95% of sessions containing fighting. But changing to the listed games without changing the intent will do nothing different. OTOH, playing D&D without that intent will yield a very different percentage of bloody sessions. The determining factor is always the intent of the group, not the rules.

-clash

Quote from: Nicephorus;660159Dr. Rotwang is still my hero.

Doc R has always been my hero.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;660165Agreed. That last is purest bullshit. If you go into playing D&D with the intent to have a lot of fighting, you'll get your 95% of sessions containing fighting. But changing to the listed games without changing the intent will do nothing different. OTOH, playing D&D without that intent will yield a very different percentage of bloody sessions. The determining factor is always the intent of the group, not the rules.

Well, I haven't watched the video yet so I'm not endorsing anything said there.  Mainly I think that Iron Heroes and Dungeon World have a similar focus on killing.  

However, I do think that changing games often has an influence on the style of the group - especially if the game designs are quite different.  Say, if the same group picks up Prince Valiant and plays it - there are likely to be changes to their intent from their D&D game even if they didn't have an explicit discussion of "Hey, let's change our intent for this game."  

So I agree intent is a key determining factor, but rules and materials can influence (though not determine) intent.

I don't know about 95% of our time, but I would say that for 4e, a disproportionate amount of time was spent in combat, and that was because combats were taking too long at one point.  We eventually fixed that and got our combats down to 20 minutes or less, but for a while there it was too much time.  Once we fixed it, then I'd say combat was about half the time?

For 1e, and 3e, and BECMI, I'd say it was less time spent on combat than in 4e.  Probably less than 50% of the time in combat, unless the game happened to be online, in which case more than 50% was in combat due to that forum being better for combat and not as good for role playing (form lack of face to face contact).

Quote from: Chairman Meow;660161In the grim future of the RPG hobby, players will starve to death for want of rules telling them how to eat between gaming sessions.

This a very real danger.

Quote from: jhkim;660179Well, I haven't watched the video yet so I'm not endorsing anything said there.  Mainly I think that Iron Heroes and Dungeon World have a similar focus on killing.  

However, I do think that changing games often has an influence on the style of the group - especially if the game designs are quite different.  Say, if the same group picks up Prince Valiant and plays it - there are likely to be changes to their intent from their D&D game even if they didn't have an explicit discussion of "Hey, let's change our intent for this game."  

So I agree intent is a key determining factor, but rules and materials can influence (though not determine) intent.

Hey, John! I'm the guy with the switchable-resolution-mechanics system, remember? I've switched mechanics in the middle of a session to test the system, and it makes a big difference in feel, and that means people play it differently! Consider that whole question as a proven fact.

From the Reddit:

"I think you're thinking everyone is like you. I think you're likely smart, capable, and able to do a lot of the things that make for a fun roleplaying game.
Most people....aren't. They need that rules support. Sure you and Jason Morningstar (and many other people I know of) could make Savage Worlds into an emo Vampire :TheMasquerade clone, or BattleTech into an RPG about ballet when playing, but not everyone can.
They need the rules, story, choices, to support them and their less creative, dynamic friends, into actually having the roleplaying experience you can pull out of anything."

Ok, maybe most people aren't "smart, capable, and able to do a lot of the things that make for a fun roleplaying game."

Then why would you play with them? When you meet someone like that kick them in the kidney, have lunch, and move on with your life--don't sit down and write a game that enables their boringness. And for god's sake don't write one.

Recently, in my AD&D2E campaign, the PCs had to deal with a giant that was troubling travellers on the road. They acted as go-between for the giant and the local lord and negotiated a job for the giant, in the lord's employ, to protect travellers on the road. They had a giant-sized tabard made in the lord's livery, the giant was proud.

Quote from: Orpheo;660217Recently, in my AD&D2E campaign, the PCs had to deal with a giant that was troubling travellers on the road. They acted as go-between for the giant and the local lord and negotiated a job for the giant, in the lord's employ, to protect travellers on the road. They had a giant-sized tabard made in the lord's livery, the giant was proud.

Yep! I had similar things happen while I ran AD&D for two decades. There is nothing inevitable about D&D being all about the murderhobos. Your group's intent about what you want and expect from a game have an enormous influence on how your game is played.

-clash