Quote from: Exploderwizard;660556Hehe.  Did the guy at least take disadvantage points for the traits that got his companions killed?

No, but he did lose his Advantage of social status of being a king.

Quote from: Bill;660557Why did you not just have the dragon kill him?

I felt it would be more fitting from an in-game perspective; the dragon wanted him to live with the consequences of his actions.

Quote from: Drohem;660549Agreed!

One of my best buddies is the kind of guy who tells the King of France to go fuck himself at 1st level.  I was running a 3e GURPS Celtic game and his character was a king.  There were nine party members who encountered an old dragon on a misty isle.  What did he do?  He mouthed off to the dragon of course!  Naturally, the dragon warned him to hold his tongue, but, of course, he mouthed off to the dragon even more so and wouldn't let up.

Finally, the dragon cast a mass hold spell and caught all nine party members in it.  While they were all being held, the dragon told the king that he must pay for his insolence.  The dragon then bites the heads off three of the characters at random (but not the king because he must watch).  Three characters died because of his inability to put himself aside and play his character's mind in that situation.

There was a bard in that group (who survived the dragon attack) and he wrote a satire of the event.  When the king and group returned home, the bard told his tale and spun his satire for the court and people.  The king lost his crown as a result of that satire and his actions that day at the dragon's cave.

Was it a dick move to randomly kill three other characters for his stupidity?  Probably, but I was just done with his bullshit in this regard and drew a line in the sand in my game.

I'll call this one Full Metal Jacket GMing . A neat though nasty trick indeed - personally I've learned of such training/punishment methods before FMJ, from a series of books on Russian army. Never quite had the guts to use it at my table, I'll admit, but I pondered such a move. It's really a good team spirit building move, because after the initial ribbing, anger and sourness, the guilty is a bit more considerate, and the rest stays a bit edgy and ready to suppress him.

Quote from: Bill;660557Why did you not just have the dragon kill him?

It's an old trick, at least as old as Prussian 18th century armies. You punish everyone but the transgressor in the squadron...and later, at lights out, you order for the screams from the tent/room to be ignored. Unless they get too loud, of course. Alternatively - come on, surely you saw FMJ.

That, and it made sense for a dragon to use such a horrible mental torture.

Someone bronze Rincewind's post!  Good stuff.

Quote from: EarthlyWalker;660504I think it is all about understanding what everyone wants out of the game and finding a compromise

Welcome to the adult swim.

Quote from: Drohem;660558No, but he did lose his Advantage of social status of being a king.



I felt it would be more fitting from an in-game perspective; the dragon wanted him to live with the consequences of his actions.

I am curious if the player made a new character that could hold his tongue?

Quote from: Rincewind1;660559I'll call this one Full Metal Jacket GMing . A neat though nasty trick indeed - personally I've learned of such training/punishment methods before FMJ, from a series of books on Russian army. Never quite had the guts to use it at my table, I'll admit, but I pondered such a move. It's really a good team spirit building move, because after the initial ribbing, anger and sourness, the guilty is a bit more considerate, and the rest stays a bit edgy and ready to suppress him.


It's an old trick, at least as old as Prussian 18th century armies. You punish everyone but the transgressor in the squadron...and later, at lights out, you order for the screams from the tent/room to be ignored. Unless they get too loud, of course. Alternatively - come on, surely you saw FMJ.

That, and it made sense for a dragon to use such a horrible mental torture.

I get the concept but am not convinced it is ideal at the gaming table

Quote from: Bill;660571I get the concept but am not convinced it is ideal at the gaming table

It's not. It's a dirty  mind trick, down to the very bones, as you're utilising some crowd mentality stuff here. But since I assume this was getting on Drohem's nerves, sometimes you need to hit a problematic player with heavy cannons. Especially perhaps if, in general, he's a cool guy and a good friend, and you enjoy not just playing but just hanging out together, so you want him to stop being such a poppycock so everyone can enjoy the game.

Do you remember his interaction with that dragon, Drohem? I am interested what a guy who starts as high as king on the latter could say . I mean, you would expect certain high level of smug from a king.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;660437A most excellent and useful post, Rincewind. This is the kind of thing that should be in GM advice chapters in rpgs.

Quote from: Benoist;660540Cool post, Rincewind.

Quote from: Drohem;660549Agreed!

Quote from: thedungeondelver;660562Someone bronze Rincewind's post!  Good stuff.

Ditto. Great post. Lots of food for thought.

Quote from: Bill;660570I am curious if the player made a new character that could hold his tongue?

I have known and played RPGs with my friend since 1985 and, to the best of my knowledge, he has never made a character who can hold his tongue. LOL!

His king character in this particular game continued in the campaign, and eventually won back his kingship through heroic deeds and atonement for his foolishness with the dragon.

Quote from: Rincewind1;660574It's not. It's a dirty  mind trick, down to the very bones, as you're utilising some crowd mentality stuff here. But since I assume this was getting on Drohem's nerves, sometimes you need to hit a problematic player with heavy cannons. Especially perhaps if, in general, he's a cool guy and a good friend, and you enjoy not just playing but just hanging out together, so you want him to stop being such a poppycock so everyone can enjoy the game.

Nailed it!

Quote from: Rincewind1;660574Do you remember his interaction with that dragon, Drohem? I am interested what a guy who starts as high as king on the latter could say . I mean, you would expect certain high level of smug from a king.

Yes... the characters sailed into the Other World and landed on the Isle of the Dragon.  He was an ancient red dragon.  In the GURPS game system, dragons are no joke.  The dragon was smart and had many spells.

The king character's smugness as a king is precisely what landed him in hot water.  He failed to properly address the dragon, and he failed at basic Celtic social etiquette.  He was pompous and full of himself, and failed to recognize when humility would best serve the situation- and three of his Warriors (other PCs) paid the price in blood for it.

Ha, Drohem, your anecdote reminds me of the time my character forced a Dragon (thru horrid insults and threats no less) to fight him, wich it finally did.

My character and his buddy butchered the Dragon.

Then its mom turned up.

The PCs all survived by bravely running away but our army got eaten and since it was the third time my character botched the whole "Imperial officer" thing the party decided to depart the Empire.

This sorta thing tended to happen a lot...

Quote from: Drohem;660549I was running a 3e GURPS Celtic game and his character was a king.  There were nine party members who encountered an old dragon on a misty isle.  What did he do?  He mouthed off to the dragon of course!  Naturally, the dragon warned him to hold his tongue, but, of course, he mouthed off to the dragon even more so and wouldn't let up.

Finally, the dragon cast a mass hold spell and caught all nine party members in it.  While they were all being held, the dragon told the king that he must pay for his insolence.  The dragon then bites the heads off three of the characters at random (but not the king because he must watch).  Three characters died because of his inability to put himself aside and play his character's mind in that situation.

Quote from: Drohem;660586The king character's smugness as a king is precisely what landed him in hot water.  He failed to properly address the dragon, and he failed at basic Celtic social etiquette.  He was pompous and full of himself, and failed to recognize when humility would best serve the situation- and three of his Warriors (other PCs) paid the price in blood for it.

Drohem - there's what looks like an inconsistency here.  In the first quoted post above, you implied that the player was failing to role-play his character (i.e. "his inability to put himself aside").  However, in the latter quoted post, you say that the character was smug, pompous, and full of himself - which implies that the player was correctly playing his character.  Which is it - i.e. was the player playing his character well?

Quote from: jhkim;660664Drohem - there's what looks like an inconsistency here.  In the first quoted post above, you implied that the player was failing to role-play his character (i.e. "his inability to put himself aside").  However, in the latter quoted post, you say that the character was smug, pompous, and full of himself - which implies that the player was correctly playing his character.  Which is it - i.e. was the player playing his character well?

Being a terrible bastard to a dragon falls short of roleplaying, unless your character has 3 Int and Wisdom.

Quote from: Drohem;660586The king character's smugness as a king is precisely what landed him in hot water.  He failed to properly address the dragon, and he failed at basic Celtic social etiquette.  He was pompous and full of himself, and failed to recognize when humility would best serve the situation- and three of his Warriors (other PCs) paid the price in blood for it.

Deprotagonized sparrow! :rant:

Quote from: Rincewind1;660665Being a terrible bastard to a dragon falls short of roleplaying, unless your character has 3 Int and Wisdom.

Or is a badass and knows it.