Quote from: Zak S;660211From the Reddit:

"I think you're thinking everyone is like you. I think you're likely smart, capable, and able to do a lot of the things that make for a fun roleplaying game.
Most people....aren't. They need that rules support. Sure you and Jason Morningstar (and many other people I know of) could make Savage Worlds into an emo Vampire :TheMasquerade clone, or BattleTech into an RPG about ballet when playing, but not everyone can.
They need the rules, story, choices, to support them and their less creative, dynamic friends, into actually having the roleplaying experience you can pull out of anything."

Ok, maybe most people aren't "smart, capable, and able to do a lot of the things that make for a fun roleplaying game."

Then why would you play with them? When you meet someone like that kick them in the kidney, have lunch, and move on with your life--don't sit down and write a game that enables their boringness. And for god's sake don't write one.

I don't know. My players are all smarter, quicker, better looking, and younger than I. I only manage to keep up with wily tricks and immense experience.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;660221I don't know. My players are all smarter, quicker, better looking, and younger than I. I only manage to keep up with wily tricks and immense experience.

-clash

Old Age and Treachery defeats Youth and Strength.

Quote from: Bill;660232Old Age and Treachery defeats Youth and Strength.

Pretty much! Although more 'staves off disaster from' more than 'defeats'

-clash

Best advice I can give: regardless of what you play ignore anything posted about pen and paper RPGs that comes from websites whose primary focus is social justice rather than gaming.  This means Something Awful, Reddit and RPG.net are right out.  There's your "95%" - you've now shut out 95% of stupid opinions about RPGs of any genre.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;660307Best advice I can give: regardless of what you play ignore anything posted about pen and paper RPGs that comes from websites whose primary focus is social justice rather than gaming.  This means Something Awful, Reddit and RPG.net are right out.  There's your "95%" - you've now shut out 95% of stupid opinions about RPGs of any genre.

Solid advice.  QFTMFT.  Ron is the man!

Quote from: Orpheo;660217Recently, in my AD&D2E campaign, the PCs had to deal with a giant that was troubling travellers on the road. They acted as go-between for the giant and the local lord and negotiated a job for the giant, in the lord's employ, to protect travellers on the road. They had a giant-sized tabard made in the lord's livery, the giant was proud.

*mind blown* Impossible! How can you where there's no rules for "diplomancy" to make NPCs genuflect to your almight TN roll?!

Reddit, lol. Someone who has an accoun there can throw my Words of Wisdom (TM) to that poor sod.

With that out of the way.

Technically speaking, D&D rules do encourage combat (yes yes, I know, XP for treasure - but let's face it, vast majority of players haven't heard about that one before they played SJG Munchikin for a first time), since you get your precious XPs for killing things. So the best thing to change things here, is to adopt XP based on accomplishments/actions model - so not only killing things is rewarded, but also roleplaying, performing tasks, doing important things and making your mark on the world.

The rules certain influence and help a playstyle, but they will not enforce it, unless those rules are really heavy and treated as RAW.

That 95% is obviously a hyperbole, so let's not act as if we don't get the joke

Quote from: CRKrueger;660069It's really ironic that someone suggested a 3.5 variant as a replacement.  The OP in that reddit thread was talking about his Pathfinder players always shitting on NPCs and provoking combat.

In other words, this OP guy is blaming bad behavior at the gaming table on the game system and is looking to fix it via the game system.  His characters are CharOp whackjobs who like stroking themselves to the sounds of dice propelling their character builds through the opposition with no consequence whatsoever.  He's running the kind of adolescent powertrip game most of us got out of our system at 13.

This guy is a shit GM so he needs a safe hugbox where his players can't hurt him, a new school game is definitely in order.  One more for Dungeon World.

You nailed it, CRKruger. There are few issues that this GM needs to consider, outside of changing mechanics.

1) First of all, if this is CharOp issue indeed, then you need to level the field. Either put on the Viking Hat and start banning overpowered supplements, or in fact, go entirely to the supplements and mechanics you feel comfortable and proficient with. That's why I, for one, ban things outside of basic 3e, would I be hit with an anvil and want to run a campaign in it (just kidding, I ran a few 3e games that were awesome fun). If your players are CharOpers, either change the mechanic to one without such bizarre CharOp, or become one yourself. If they construct characters that take out King John McEvil with one blow, you need to learn how to construct those villains to not be such.

One could say that this is one of the "dirty tricks" of GMs. In a way, training to be a GM is a lot like training police according to Vimes of Discworld fame. First you show the GMs how to be good, open, sandbox GMs who create fun environments for their players to play with. You teach them that if they want to tie a story in, how to try and go for an organic feel to it, and leave the decision to the players ultimately, rather than try to railroad/illusion it. You teach them that players have a right to have fun, and not to be dicks.

But after that's done, you need also to tell them a few dirty secrets. How to kick a problematic player out of the group. How to handle overpowered characters without breaking sandbox (too much). How to burn the fucking barge, if everyone's on board with Enemy Within but one guy wants to play River Trader Simulator 1459 right now, rather than later.

And how to fight CharOp fire with CharOp fire. Just ask the players that do it - it's not that hard to learn the basics of it, if you really need. Or to have your builds done for you. A good GM must have a decent dose of Clintness in his veins.


There's also an option of changing players, but this only is applicable if those people aren't your buddies generally, that is, gaming is the only thing you have in common. Otherwise it's better to just talk what you want out of an RPG.

2) The other keystone of the problem is here:

Quote(even thou majority of the time they call the npc a cock and abuse them)

I'm going to go a bit anecdotal here.

First of all, as a GM you must understand the realism of social interactions, so to speak. By that I mean, that it is often common for people to treat other people in a disregarding manner, because of social position or a position of temporary power - but also people will often suck up to those in power. This is often an important piece of advice given in settings or such RPGs as Warhammer for one - your social status matters.

When your PCs enter the bar, don't expect them to go "Good sir bartender, please give us a mug of your finest if you desire", unless they are really that kind of person. Most people will just go up to the bar, order, then go to drink. That's the average/commoner social strata, so to speak, where D&D characters are supposed to start for the most part. On the other hand, a mid - level party, say 5 - 6th level, will usually be dressed up to toe in fine armour, with weapons bearing signs of frequent use, their wizard having this maddened gleam of someone who burned 20 orcs with one fireball in his eye.

Such people entering a tavern are an equivalent of Hell's Angels walking in. You don't want them in your bar, but you sure as hell will be too scared to give them any lip - so you serve them. If they will start murmuring something about a discount, you'll probably give one to them, because it's cheaper than paying for new furniture, dentist, or Raise Dead spell if things go particularly nasty. Such characters shouldn't be expected to go "Please kind bartender sir, may we have your services" - because they know that nobody'll give them lip. Of course, they may also not be Hell's Angels, a bunch of nice guys more than willing to pay what they need, or even throw a party to the patrons, but the point is, you have a group of pretty tough bastards walking into your bar, so most people, out of respect for sanctity of their skin, will mind their own business.

Now, this relation can  also go beyond that advance and degrade. If the player is from a race being considered lesser/subhuman in the setting, or if they are from a disrespected profession, it's possible that bartender'll go "We don't serve your kind around here", especially if he can count on supporter of his bouncers/customers in a brawl against such a group.

On the other end of the spectrum - when Tony Soprano or Godfather walks into a bar, the bartender comes rushing and starts offering them free drinks, both out of fear and respect. A 10th level character in old D&D would have his own castle or an equivalent. You see such a guy moving in, you clear  the tavern, bow as lowly as you can, and start telling him what excellent food for a feast you have - just like what happened when a lord would come into a tavern in medieval times. The tavern's owner would spare no time kicking out the commoners, because he knows the lord pays damn good - not to mention can torch his tavern, if he's terribly displeased.

And so, this applies to a vast majority of social interactions. Of course, you may come across more "socially conscious" blacksmith or merchant here and there, who may enjoy shaking down those bloody nobles/mercenaries for additional coins, but even those people will usually do so in environments where they know those "bloody mercenaries" won't just stick a sword into them and take their goods anyway.

However, there are also important NPCs in their own right. And there are players, who get their jollies of telling King Richard the Dragonslayer to go fuck himself when he asks them to bow, while being first level nobodies. And in such a situation, the (novice/lighthearted) GM is faced with a dilemma - on one hand, I shouldn't kill PCs just like that (let's face it, first level PC fighting against 10 - 12th level king and his elite bodyguards is pretty much a longer version of saying "You're dead"). On the other hand, he's really earned it...

Of course, the way to save your face in such a situation, is for the King to indeed grab that PC and hang him - or just smash his face to pieces right where he stands, then snap his fingers for servants to clean the mess up. Alternatively, pause the game, speak to the players, then continue if they understand that they aren't acting at all "socially conscious" within setting's boundaries. If you let that player/PC off, you are sending a terrible message - you are being a pushover. Such a player, being a bastard, is very likely to then push to the limit, to see how much he can get away with. He'll start playing the GM not the game.


If you want your PCs to respect the NPCs, you also need to present those NPCs in such a matter that they command respect. If you have a mob boss that PCs are supposed to fear, you can't just say "This is Tony Scarface, mob boss. Fear him". You need to describe the character, and put him into such a surroundings and situation, that PCs will respect him not because he's having a Very Important NPC marker over his head, but because he's such a lifelike badass it's natural to respect him. First impressions are paramount. It's not a bad idea to set up the first interaction with a character you want to be seen as a bad ass, in a certain way. Personally I love to use Darth Vader as a good example here (and also part of the reason why prequels had such "meh" villains). Because what's the first scene we see Darth Vader in? We see first the lower parts of some cumbersome, scary blac armour coming from the smoke. He walks through the carnage of a fresh battle, unfazed in slightest, commanding presence just oozing from him. He proceeds to order around those tough - looking space soldiers, then he grabs a nearby human figure and begins to torture and kill the poor man, while pretending that he even bothers to listen to what he has to say. Vader knows already why he's on the ship, the interrogation is only part of the torture as he calmly kills a human being with one hand then discards it like a rag puppet, then proceeds to order his armor - clad soldiers in calm tone, as if he just finished dinner.

Now, RPGs being a much more interactive medium, you may say "But surely players would move in to intervene" - or they may simply not wish to watch the scene at all. In case 2, nothing to be done (this again depends on circumstances - in RPGs, such a scene as Vader committed, would occur with players tied and gagged as his prisoners, for example). In case 1, this is again a case of common sense. A first level character, or even a 4 - 5th charging at Vader will die, simple as that, if they don't have a cunning plan. Especially given that a bunch of stormtroopers is still standing around him, and seeing as they were kind of busy fighting them up at this point and are probably hiding in some wall or something...yeah. One of the more important issues when dealing with games where, at some points, PCs become much, much more resistant than they were (like D&D for example or Savage Worlds - in BR and RQ and Warhammer it also happens, but not to a such large degree), is to introduce the villain in such a manner early - or on an appropriate scale. 10th level PCs need proper Demon Lords/Princes or Ancient Dracoliches/Red Dragon That Ate Entire Dwarven Hold to fear and that's also fine - after all, they are badasses themselves.

To give a more D&D example, let's say that your players - 2 to 3rd level group - are travelling to a village, which is currently being pillaged by archvillain of the area, so you decide it's a good moment to introduce him to the players. So when they come into the village, they see it's burning, with orcs rounding up few last survivors to the middle of the square. A lot of orcs.

Now, players being semi - intelligent,  they go into full stealthy and scout mode, to see what happens. They see a guy in obsidian black armour covered in red burning runes, with 2d6 Hell Hounds at his heels (should they happen to visit said villain in his throne room, the Hell Hounds would be replaced by d4 Succubuses/Incubuses, in form of truly beautiful people preening at his legs, who would shift to their true form should combat erupt, of course) and about fifty orcs around him, including a dozen also in obsidian black plate armour. On the back of our Black Knight rests a blade with gleaming blue/red runes, and one can almost swear they see red flickers in the helmet slots. So the villain proceeds to grab first of the villagers from the crowd, puts his hand on his forehead, and then the players can witness some white, ghostly form coming out of the forehead, as the poor farmer screams at the top of his lungs...until it's all over in a matter of seconds, and his corpse's thrown on the nearby burning pile.


Cliche? Yes. But it sets the villain just right into the setting, and in a situation in which even party's zealous paladin will grind his teeth and bid fight for another day, or perhaps try a diversion/sacrifice himself to save farmers - but rather won't count on victory. Presentation is key. And remember - do not go with a lengthy description. Go with a vivid, lifelike, but quickly paced one. Those things are happening disturbingly quickly, especially if nobody sends an arrow into a head of one of the orcs. The Dark Lord isn't there to entertain player characters with his dark deeds, he has his business, and he's going about it at his normal pace.

This also works for non - villainous characters. To use that name of King Richard the Dragonslayer - as players enter his castle, they walk through the row of beast's heads handing on the walls, including the dragon that gave Robert his nickname (or dragons, depending on ubiquity of those in the setting). They see a stern man with a steel gaze sitting on the throne, his jewel - encrusted dragonslaying sword resting against armrest. The throne itself is surrounded by 4 men in plate armour that appear to be his Royal Guard,  and 10 more of them are waiting in the shadow of the throne room itself, who are watching the blades at players' belts very, very carefully. At the left of the king, an elderly wizard in robes signifying him as High Mage stands, ready to disperse advice, whispering something that causes King's brows to furrow as PCs enter the throne room. Courtiers, as well as petitioners get out of PCs way. He waits until the characters bow, then he asks them what do they want and to not waste his time.

Now, I'm going to throw a little anecdote here before I continue.

I was recently playing a mini - campaign in Warhammer 2e. The GM wasn't a veteran nor a newbie, a decent guy I shared a few drinks with and his groups, pal so to speak. The campaign was railroady as hell, but the fun was decent, and we were promised a good old sandbox from 3rd session onwards (it was a lie but nevermind, the campaign ended 3 games later and "closed" so no big deal).

And indeed, during the course of that campaign, I admit I did a terrible thing. I discovered the GM a pushover (when a guy tells me "Well I wasn't targetting you to make sure you wouldn't die" when we're playing Warhammer...). The players felt secure enough that people used Fate Points to do such things as rescue their horses - I was baffled at first, but then, as it turned out, nobody ever lost a Fate Point outside such situations. And we had at least 1 combat per session, with things like vampires and orc Warbosses (the problem there was that we always fought like, 1 vampire/Warboss....and Warhammer fully attests, that outside of dragons and Greater Demons, nec Hercules contra plures). However, not being a dick, I kept to my guns and did not push the GM - I kept roleplaying my character as I did, rather than start doing kickflips in faces of Templars of White Wolf to see how far I can get away with.

Now see, I'm playing a veteran Dwarven Mercenary in full glory - 56 WS, 2 attacks, 5 Toughness, chainmail, axe and whooping 17 in People's Skills (I forgot how it is in English). I'm rude, prone to drinking and prone to a fight, and everyone knows that, as I take lip from nobody and will smash teeth against the tree of someone daring to try and kill a wizard I was hired to protect, just to send a message to the rest of his wizard - hating buddies at the camp. I'll stand up to defend my contract, and it doesn't matter whether it's some piss poor peasant or an Imperial Witch Hunter, they better prepare for an axe in the head before  they get her.

Anyway, during the 3rd session, we need to find some guy to give us informations. He's described as a "middle drone" of criminal world, someone who has a major drug problem it seems. We go to the seedy tavern where he's sitting, and there he is, a skinny guy accompanied by 2 thugs with clubs. Bear in mind - the GM is not particularly describing them a lot here. They are just 2 typical goons with clubs, so I'm getting a message that they are a classic hired help. So this druggie, after getting the drugs for a bribe, starts giving us lip how he doesn't trust us and that we're supposed to go and do something bad to the City Watch to prove we're not part of it. Again, let me rephrase - we're all dressed in good mercenary armour, and I'm basically a walking 4 feet tall ball of hatred and muscle, and this guy's giving me lip. So without much thinking, I go and bribe 2 nearby City Watchmen who are observing his table to go and take a walk...then draw an axe and start walking towards the druggie. His thugs jump us, and without much surprise, they are quickly on the floor and dying (the GM doesn't bother with morale rules, obviously). In ways that put modern police to shame, within 10 seconds of finishing the fight, we hear people running our way and scream of "City watch's coming" outside the windows (:rolleyes:. I was once almost beaten up in the centre of my city, and it took police about 5 minutes to arrive...and that was modern police we're talking about, cars and quick communication. I argued that, admittedly however I did bribe off the City Watchmen, and it turns out that they decided to screw me over the bribe and found a patrol in slums within a minute. Anyway, that's really the tip of the iceberg of this anecdote)

Now, at this point, suddenly an OOC argument breaks out between me, the GM and one player. The player says that I broke his plan and character concept - alright, that one I admit, wasn't entirely cool by me, but on the other hand, the guys problem was that I disrupted his relations with a crime friend of his, and I don't see beating up one druggie as a serious problem. Now, the GM has much more serious bomb - this guy is actually an important mobster, and I just screwed over a major NPC. I was then accused of constantly beating up NPCs and being overall aggressive towards them.

First of all, as I said to the GM - alright, so what. I'm ready for the consequences, if he's such a supermobster, let them come. The character I'm playing isn't very sensible and both I and he know it. Secondly - I admit, I wasn't a very charismatic character...but I also had the lowest Charisma score in the party, and I was a dwarf. I didn't go around beating up homeless, I did not go around calling the lord of the castle cock - I admit, I did scream at the lord, but it was about breaking the laws of hospitability by allowing the Witch Hunter to  try and capture the wizard I was protecting. When I was in company of my fellow dwarves however, I turned into a classic "merry dwarf amongst dwarves" kind though, and in fact part of the reason why we were trying to get that information in the first place, was me trying to save my dwarven buddy librarian. And thirdly and most importantly to this post, I asked him how the hell was I actually even supposed to know this guy was an important mobster. He was describing as some druggie client by other Very Important Mobster, and he was in presence of 2 guys who were looking like cardboard petty bandits cut - outs...who went down in second round of the combat, and whom I could've taken out by myself (and truth be told I did, since the other dwarf in the party had bad rolls - the wizard helped to capture the guy though with a sleep spell). In the end, it ended with bad taste, but the campaign ended soon after (I wasn't kicked out, for the note . I came back to finish the campaign, though my character kicked itself out now by stealing all the loot. Admittedly, other PCs were intent on freeing this insane demonologue and helping him getting rid of his demons, so being a dwarf and having my advice to keep him tied ignored, I decided this was the moment that working with Chaos overcomes my contract) so not a big deal.

However...this is how I'd handle this whole situation, and it's relevant to this issue none the less.

First of all, I don't tell the players that the guy just buys drugs from me. I tell them who he works for, that he's a pretty big fish in town and they shouldn't mess about with him.

Then, as the players enter the tavern, I don't just say that they see a shady guy with two thugs. No, I go a bit deeper. First of all, it's not two guys but four and the boss, playing cards, and they aren't having clubs with them, oh no. Two of them are chainmail clad, scarred, two meters tall blonde Norscans who are drinking from beer mugs the size of a bucket,bastard swords hanging from their belts. The other one is this Arab - looking fellow, covered in jewels from head to toe, playing with a mean looking, notched yatagan. And the fourth one is a one - eyed dwarf with a bandoleer of daggers and throwing knives stretching across his leather armour. And the boss of those four may be a scrawny looking drug - liking dude, but you can see some crazy look in his sleep deprived eyes. You can tell that this guy may not look like much, but his sarcastic smile and eyes of a murderer tell you that he's not someone you should mess around with. A good respectful scrawny man warrior:



I can tell you this much - should I come across someone like that, I'd choose my words very, very carefully, even as a trigger - happy dwarf. And I actually know this from practice. In my (sadly defunct now) AD&D campaign, PCs were taken to a brother slash mob tavern pretty early on in the game, about level 2, by a veteran thief they rescued from prison. And when they went inside to meet a local mobster called Scar, I did describe him and put him in the setting, like I just described above. He was sitting at the table, with 5 other thugs, everyone looking mean as hell, with blades at their belts, dreadlocks and leather armours (the action was taking place in Stygia, a mix between ancient Egypt, Arab Egypt and Egypt through the lenses of REH and Lovecraft), and what happens as players approach the table? He stabs someone who was trying to cheat at cards in the hand, Bill the Butcher style.

The players didn't give him any lip, and he, out of respect for the man they saved, didn't give any to them. And as they worked together, that mutual respect indeed grew.

Whew, this is quite a lengthy post, but onwards to the end:

Quotei dont know how to stretch a story out whilst avoiding any possible form of confrontation

The truth is, the best approach is...not to even attempt to do so. Doing so has a name in GMing, and it's called railroading and illusionism. Conflict is what drives the sandbox, and that means that also your Supercool NPC may get killed before he gets to say more than three lines of text. This works two ways however - if the PCs are about playing murderhobos, the Law & Order will catch up to them sooner or later. Ultimately, unless they aren't tired of changing characters ever 2 - 3 sessions (and we assume that they can't just CharOp them in such a way that they are untouchable), they will learn basics of human interaction, both RL and in game.

The first principle when you are designing a setting/adventure/sandbox, is - don't get attached to monsters or NPCs. They may die. They may die and nobody will even care, outside of their close ones who will weep and slowly move on with their lives Freddy Friendly Farmer may be brutally killed, because we're playing Warhammer/RQ Vikings and we've been starving for the past three days, and we were so desperate and paranoid we didn't even think to intimidate Freddy first, choosing to kill him to be more safe than sorry.

But there are also those occasions, in which killing someone is far from the end, even if they were just a random peasant #47

Four IG years later, as we're now running our caravan company,  and our shipments are going missing. As we put on again our armours and ride out to investigate, we come face to face with a pretty woman, whose gang of ruthless mercenaries intends to kill us. Turns out that farmer had a 14 year old daughter who loved him so much, she dedicated her life to training and tracking us down.

Are you not entertained? What more story do you want?

Confrontation is the story.

Quotehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtUgtX3ncTk

2 minutes in and he's talking game design and the importance of implementing behaviours via mechanics, after going on a spiel about indie RPGs. Yeah I wonder what are this guys favourite games.

There are a few slivers worth of interest and learning there, but buried deeply under storygaming metagaming crap. Not to mention defining RPGs in a way  that's basically a definition of storygames. EDIT: Nope sorry it's shit, it's a public Forgewank. 40 minutes of bashing DnD and praising Forge's theorywank and mistaking half of storygames for RPGs. I want that time back.

A most excellent and useful post, Rincewind. This is the kind of thing that should be in GM advice chapters in rpgs.

That video is really, really bad.

The icing on the Forge Wankery is that they compare all those RPGs to D&D, a game whose areas of true expertise are right in the name. If they'd try to take the potshots they are taking against BRP, D6 or even Warhammer, half of those arguments'd evaporate right on the spot, the other half would be a stretch the size of distance between D&D 4e and old school.

I'd also like to notice the gem in the middle of the video, when someone tries to ask a question, and they dismiss it saying that they won't be taking any questions.

Hm. Not taking any questions while uttering controversial statements on a public forum, relegating those questions to non - public e - mails or comments on their webpage, where they are moderated?

The Jehova Witness angle holds more and more sense. They aren't discussing game styles. They are preaching.

All in all, their attitude that "games should enforce certain roleplaying, and good mechanics will grab that roleplaying out of you without you even trying to roleplay", alongside arguments how we're not good roleplayers and that good roleplaying should come from the game itself, not just you, prove again that Forgers don't understand human interactions.

I've played with groups that were 95% combat and groups that were 95% roleplay and I've got to say both were fun in their own way. The only groups that I've found to not be fun are when the DM is making the game 95% roleplay and the characters want 95% combat or vice versa.

I think it is all about understanding what everyone wants out of the game and finding a compromise

Earthly Walker

Quote from: Opaopajr;660362*mind blown* Impossible! How can you where there's no rules for "diplomancy" to make NPCs genuflect to your almight TN roll?!

Wait...how much xp and loot did they lose!!!!!

What was the skill DC to pwn the giant!!!



But seriously, that is what I call an awesome event in a game!

I vastly prefer that style over murderhobism.

Cool post, Rincewind.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;660437A most excellent and useful post, Rincewind. This is the kind of thing that should be in GM advice chapters in rpgs.

Quote from: Benoist;660540Cool post, Rincewind.

Agreed!

One of my best buddies is the kind of guy who tells the King of France to go fuck himself at 1st level.  I was running a 3e GURPS Celtic game and his character was a king.  There were nine party members who encountered an old dragon on a misty isle.  What did he do?  He mouthed off to the dragon of course!  Naturally, the dragon warned him to hold his tongue, but, of course, he mouthed off to the dragon even more so and wouldn't let up.

Finally, the dragon cast a mass hold spell and caught all nine party members in it.  While they were all being held, the dragon told the king that he must pay for his insolence.  The dragon then bites the heads off three of the characters at random (but not the king because he must watch).  Three characters died because of his inability to put himself aside and play his character's mind in that situation.

There was a bard in that group (who survived the dragon attack) and he wrote a satire of the event.  When the king and group returned home, the bard told his tale and spun his satire for the court and people.  The king lost his crown as a result of that satire and his actions that day at the dragon's cave.

Was it a dick move to randomly kill three other characters for his stupidity?  Probably, but I was just done with his bullshit in this regard and drew a line in the sand in my game.

Quote from: Drohem;660549Agreed!

One of my best buddies is the kind of guy who tells the King of France to go fuck himself at 1st level.  I was running a 3e GURPS Celtic game and his character was a king.  There were nine party members who encountered an old dragon on a misty isle.  What did he do?  He mouthed off to the dragon of course!  Naturally, the dragon warned him to hold his tongue, but, of course, he mouthed off to the dragon even more so and wouldn't let up.

Finally, the dragon cast a mass hold spell and caught all nine party members in it.  While they were all being held, the dragon told the king that he must pay for his insolence.  The dragon then bites the heads off three of the characters at random (but not the king because he must watch).  Three characters died because of his inability to put himself aside and play his character's mind in that situation.

There was a bard in that group (who survived the dragon attack) and he wrote a satire of the event.  When the king and group returned home, the bard told his tale and spun his satire for the court and people.  The king lost his crown as a result of that satire and his actions that day at the dragon's cave.

Was it a dick move to randomly kill three other characters for his stupidity?  Probably, but I was just done with his bullshit in this regard and drew a line in the sand in my game.

Hehe.  Did the guy at least take disadvantage points for the traits that got his companions killed?

Quote from: Drohem;660549Agreed!

One of my best buddies is the kind of guy who tells the King of France to go fuck himself at 1st level.  I was running a 3e GURPS Celtic game and his character was a king.  There were nine party members who encountered an old dragon on a misty isle.  What did he do?  He mouthed off to the dragon of course!  Naturally, the dragon warned him to hold his tongue, but, of course, he mouthed off to the dragon even more so and wouldn't let up.

Finally, the dragon cast a mass hold spell and caught all nine party members in it.  While they were all being held, the dragon told the king that he must pay for his insolence.  The dragon then bites the heads off three of the characters at random (but not the king because he must watch).  Three characters died because of his inability to put himself aside and play his character's mind in that situation.

There was a bard in that group (who survived the dragon attack) and he wrote a satire of the event.  When the king and group returned home, the bard told his tale and spun his satire for the court and people.  The king lost his crown as a result of that satire and his actions that day at the dragon's cave.

Was it a dick move to randomly kill three other characters for his stupidity?  Probably, but I was just done with his bullshit in this regard and drew a line in the sand in my game.

Why did you not just have the dragon kill him?