Quote from: Omega;1115621Which ones? Ive gone through some of the BX modules and they are surprisingly light on magic items. Scrolls and potions seemed the most common items to find. The occasional +1 weapon or armour.

The 1e AD&D tournament modules, notably.

Quote from: Shasarak;1115666If I was to make an estimate then I would guess that a +0 is probably a million times more boring then a +1



Yeah maybe we can sit around the game table holding hands and singing Kumbaya.  :rolleyes:

Neither statement was called for. Please let's focus on how you sell a 0+ equipment. Magical equipment and develops its power over time so it might give you only a tiny situational effect but with the right inducements it wil! be become a poweful weapon that fits with how your character has developed. You can only have one magical weapon, armour etc because the one you hold absorbs the magic from a second, third... one which aids in first one's development and makes the other one ordinary.  All magical equipment is rare and interesting. Something like that is a good sell.

Quote from: SHARK;1115688Greetings!

Hmmm...I would think a Gladius, having a silver inlaid handle, with the pommel being carved into a shrewdly detailed wolf head, would be well-recieved by players. The weapon has a +1 enchanted bonus, and sheds light like a torch after sundown, or otherwise in darkness. The sword inflicts 1d8 damage dice when fighting against Orcs, Beastmen, or creatures of Chaotic alignment. The wielder of the sword may enjoy the benefit of being *Hasted* up to 3/day, gaining a bonus weapon attack. Each use of the special Hasted power has a three round duration. The Hasted power may be activated through the wielder uttering the command phrase, "Glory to the Empire!". The special command phrase is delicately inscribed in an old, archaic human tongue, along the base of the blade near the handle. The sword's scabbard is crafted of black leather, fine steel, and inlaid with copper accents along the scabbatd's length.

The owner of the weapon periodically hears occasional whispers of encouragement, stirring exhortations, and solemn chanting from the ancient blade.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That's a pretty nice description that makes it interesting and useful while keeping a low plus. The light gives it general utility and the increased damage against specific types of enemies adds an extra touch without making it too overbearing. The Haste feature, finally, gives it significant power without making it too overpowered, since it only lasts three rounds and can only be used three times per day. That's probably the way I would handle most activation features if I was going the X/Day route. The rest gives it a nice touch and makes it overall useful even when its key magical feature isn't active.

Quote from: cloa513;1115695Neither statement was called for.

In fairness, I went in with the "munchkins" quip first trying to be cheeky.

Quote from: cloa513;1115695Please let's focus on how you sell a 0+ equipment. Magical equipment and develops its power over time so it might give you only a tiny situational effect but with the right inducements it wil! be become a poweful weapon that fits with how your character has developed. You can only have one magical weapon, armour etc because the one you hold absorbs the magic from a second, third... one which aids in first one's development and makes the other one ordinary.  All magical equipment is rare and interesting. Something like that is a good sell.

It depends on how you handle the item's incremental power, what specific sort of benefits you get over time and what mechanics are involved. Restricting it to just one item at a time would limit magic items significantly, though, and along with the incremental gain of power thing would radically change the dynamics of how magical items are handled in the game, making it more like Earthdawn than D&D. It would also require a whole system for determining how items gain in power, and would have a specific flavor that might not be suited for all campaign styles or settings.

Quote from: Malfi;1115600In what dnd edition?
In 3.5 it is the highest challenge. A level 20th character with his normal wealth by level is supposed to have 50% of victory against a CR 20 creature. Ofcourse monsters and characters being so diverse, its better to look at it as a party of 4 20th level pc's with the appropriate equipment vs 4 CR 20 monsters.

In 5e you are correct.

I was considering only 5e, and a single PC, but I see that the context has been somewhat variable.

Quote from: S'mon;1115535IME I'd expect most level 20 5e PCs to be able to kerbstomp a typical CR 20 monster even without items, although it depends on circumstances (if the ancient red dragon ambushes the Wizard it won't go well). The system is very generous at higher level. An even match for a level 20 Barbarian PC is around CR 25

Without items means no magic weapons (reducing damage output a lot for the martial types, as many opponents have resistance to nonmagical attacks) and typically no flying. A 20th level Barbarian PC with no magic items will likely be taken out by a Pit Fiend (CR20) flying out of reach and dropping at-will fireballs (although a few character races can fly without items). Barbarian damage with no magic items seems fairly low per round - a good non-magical weapon by itself averages below 10 points and max of +7 for strength and the rage bonus - but only two attacks per round, with critical hits not adding a lot (doubling weapon dice only). If the Barbarian has highest dexterity and constitution and a shield, then AC24 and will hit more often, and may have slightly more hit points with the Tough feat. The barbarian should have silver weapons and not have damage reduced, the damage output is still comparable toe-to-toe, and the Pit Fiend will benefit from critical hits more. But with all the physical abilities so high and maybe the Tough feat, the Barbarian probably does not have a good save against the hold monster spell.

So I'm betting on the Pit Fiend there.

I've nuked the +X for magic items in the past and went with +0 and special abilities.
The players had no problem because the abilities were cool.

I enjoy a game where obtaining magic is a big deal and a +1 or +2 for armor or weapons is really big and a wand or stave is just awesome and other things like cloaks, gloves, boots, rings, potions and scrolls are a fantastic haul.

In any discussion about "too many magic items", there needs to be a separation between Permanent and Expendable magic.

One use or limited charge items aren't campaign breaking, and most are effectively just adding a bonus spell to the party for the adventure. Potions and Scrolls are the easy ones, but you could easily add Charms, Wards, Runes or other one-shot goodies and distribute them liberally between the "big hauls" of permanent items.

Quote from: rawma;1115758I was considering only 5e, and a single PC, but I see that the context has been somewhat variable.



Without items means no magic weapons (reducing damage output a lot for the martial types, as many opponents have resistance to nonmagical attacks) and typically no flying. A 20th level Barbarian PC with no magic items will likely be taken out by a Pit Fiend (CR20) flying out of reach and dropping at-will fireballs (although a few character races can fly without items). Barbarian damage with no magic items seems fairly low per round - a good non-magical weapon by itself averages below 10 points and max of +7 for strength and the rage bonus - but only two attacks per round, with critical hits not adding a lot (doubling weapon dice only). If the Barbarian has highest dexterity and constitution and a shield, then AC24 and will hit more often, and may have slightly more hit points with the Tough feat. The barbarian should have silver weapons and not have damage reduced, the damage output is still comparable toe-to-toe, and the Pit Fiend will benefit from critical hits more. But with all the physical abilities so high and maybe the Tough feat, the Barbarian probably does not have a good save against the hold monster spell.

So I'm betting on the Pit Fiend there.

Well this is wrong, a Barb 20 normally has str 24 (and may have con 24), can reckless for easy hits and boost damage with polearm master ad greatweapon master. Obviously I assume a neutral ground dungeon encounter not ambush by flying pit fiend in open terrain. Totem barb halves fire damage while berserker can bonus attack and riposte for 4 attacks/round.

Barb 20 str 24 does +11 damage or +21 with a greatweapon atrack. Attack at +13 with advantage. Or greatweapon +8 advtg and damage +21. 3rd attack via berserk or polearm master. Halberd/glaive gives nice brutal crit damage too.

BTW a pit fiend is only Large so can be grappled and knocked prone. The pf gets +8 on str checks while the barb has a minimum floor of 24 on athletics rolls as well as +13 athletics.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1115772In any discussion about "too many magic items", there needs to be a separation between Permanent and Expendable magic.

One use or limited charge items aren't campaign breaking, and most are effectively just adding a bonus spell to the party for the adventure. Potions and Scrolls are the easy ones, but you could easily add Charms, Wards, Runes or other one-shot goodies and distribute them liberally between the "big hauls" of permanent items.

... and Ammo! ... and Gear!

Yup, one-shots and charges are a great way to give powerful toys without as much worry. And once you walk away from the plus-crutch, it's pretty easy to swap in abilities, proficiencies, feats, spells, features, and the like to keep things interesting.

"Lamp Oil of Detect Magic - X charges, Y cost. A use is enough oil to last 10 minutes; multiple uses can be poured ahead of time into the same lamp or lantern to be used sequentially."

Easy peasy!

Quote from: Antiquation!;1115626My favorite option in 4e was upgrading magic items to grow progression-wise along with your character; so you might find one or two magic items near the start that are relatively low-powered, and magic items could be rare in general, but then later you slaughter a dragon king (leveling up in the process), dip your sword in its blood and gain a +1 or a new power or whatever.

Out of curiosity, does 5e have anything like that?

You could probably do that with a magic item recipe and apply it to a weapon allready enchanted to just upgrade its bonus. Example using a +2 recipe to upgrade a +1 blade to +2. Any being able to apply boons and the like could possibly enchant a PCs weapon to upgrade it one step.

And other ways to go about it without bending the rules any.

Quote from: Shasarak;1115646I have to admit that in all my years of listening to people complain about boring magical pluses on weapons, the idea of a +0 magical weapon is the worst that I ever heard.

I dont know how I would even run that past my players.

A weapon that emits light. Or rattles in its sheath when enemies are near. Or never gets dull/worn. Or appears to be made of fire and does bonus damage or ignites flammables. Or one made of ice, crystal, light, etc, but is otherwise the same as a normal weapon. Or requires a really high stat to be able to wield it. Or flies and fights on its own.

And so on.

Quote from: Shasarak;1115647Considering that Batmans utility belt most likely contains a swiss army knife it really seems like a distinction without a difference.

Only when you are being pedantic. Or willfully ignorant.

Quote from: S'mon;1115692The 1e AD&D tournament modules, notably.

Those really dont count as they are, well. One off convention modules. Score points and all that.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1115772In any discussion about "too many magic items", there needs to be a separation between Permanent and Expendable magic.

One use or limited charge items aren't campaign breaking, and most are effectively just adding a bonus spell to the party for the adventure. Potions and Scrolls are the easy ones, but you could easily add Charms, Wards, Runes or other one-shot goodies and distribute them liberally between the "big hauls" of permanent items.

I hit on this in another thread. Too many seem to complain about only the numbers, not the actual items. For example in 5e a probably fair chunk of the "magic items" that might be found in the course of a campaign tends to be taken up by potions and scrolls.

Quote from: Omega;1115823Those really dont count as they are, well. One off convention modules. Score points and all that.

They were sold as regular modules though. Really all the 1e AD&D mods have tons of items.