Quote from: Balbinus;286116The Germans make good bad guys precisely because their interests are at odds with the British but they're not evil, just opposed.  The Russians can work that way too.

Surely the French as well?

I don't know how closely the game's timeline hews to actual international developments, but in 1889 I'd say that of all the great powers, excepting possibly America, Germany had the best relations with Britain.

Quote from: Skyrock;285892Rather, you have to deal with a large sentiment of storytelling folks who think of "story", "unobtrusive rules" or "immersion" as the only real role-playing imagineable.

What's wrong with having a great story and immersion in role-playing? And I have to admit that I tend to look for rules-light systems more often recently although I enjoyed playing Rolemaster very much back in the day.

And could someone tell me what a Swine game is?

Quote from: Stargazer;286194And could someone tell me what a Swine game is?

Dude, don't kick the bee hive...

Quote from: SunBoy;286195Dude, don't kick the bee hive...

Ok, ok. And I think I found the answer with the help of almighty GOOGLE.

Quote from: Stargazer;286194What's wrong with having a great story and immersion in role-playing? And I have to admit that I tend to look for rules-light systems more often recently although I enjoyed playing Rolemaster very much back in the day.

It isn't inherently wrong to look for story and immersion (although I don't enjoy it as the main course of the game), but the exclusivity with that it is preached in the German hobby as the One True Way(TM) hinders and cripples what could be done.
You're German, you're a blogger, and I'm certain that I've seen your handle on some of the bigger forums as Tanelorn/Grofafo or Blutschwerter. You've certainly read what such folks as Settembrini, Myrmidon, Gemüse-Ghoul or I say about this matter, and how we dissected expressions and teaching texts of this sentiment like Uli Kiesows "Auf ein Wort", and it would be both redundant and derailing if we got deeper into this discussion, at least in this thread, and very probably also on this whole forum, as the domestic discourse of the German hobby is of very little concern for the mostly anglophone audience here.

In regards of "rules-light" system (a moniker in which I don't believe, if I compare how a typical GURPS game is played despite it's many tomes and complex rules, and how a typical indie game is played despite the fact that it's just based on a thin A5 book with very little rules), I think it's a common misconception to directly link this attribute with playing styles.
For instance, I'm currently prepping a FtA! campaign, and FtA! would certainly fit the common conception of a "rules-light" system. However, I'll stick to the rules, apply them harshly and let them decide if what I get resembles a story or not. The players are soccer team A, I'm as GM am all soccer team B, referee, greenkeeper and all the other rest of the game rolled into one - but then there are also the rules, and while I'll interpret and house-rule them, they'll be fixed as they are and just provide the common ground for our struggles. Maybe we get the magical moment of a Maradona-like Hand of God goal, but it won't be planned, and would not be what I as a GM work towards consciously.
On the other hand, you could take the 4th edition of TDE, which certainly fits into the "rules-heavy" conception with it's several thick tomes full of complicated rules, rule exceptions and formulas. Yet, the sentiment that is teached there in the how-to-play texts, the adventures and the campaigns is that of what anglophones would most likely identify as "storytelling" (although I think that Settembrini's "atmosphere gaming" moniker is closer to the truth, as it's very different in some respects from what WW-school storytellers aim for).


In regards of Swines, only Pundit knows for sure what their defining traits are. I'm using it here as a placeholder for German "storytellers" who try to impose their way of gaming on everyone else and to treat it as the only real way to game, or to misquote the Dead Kennedys: "Drink up. Happy hour is now enforced by law. Don't forget our house special, it's called the Trickie (dot)tie Screwdriver.
It's got one part drinkable blood prop from our Vampire LARP, two parts purple Kool-Aid, and a jigger of formaldehyde from the jar with Kiesow's brain in it we got in the back storeroom."
A Swine game would then be a game that caters to this attitude and enforces it, like TDE or Masquerade.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;286126Surely the French as well?

I don't know how closely the game's timeline hews to actual international developments, but in 1889 I'd say that of all the great powers, excepting possibly America, Germany had the best relations with Britain.

History diverges a bit with the discovery of Mars et al, in the game's timeline Germany and Britain's interests on Mars are at odds which leads to greater conflict.

The game is quite clear though that the Germans are simply a rival power, not bad guys in the sense of villains.  Competitors is closer.

The Swine are pretentious pseudo-intellectuals or pseudo-artistes who spend their time creating games that are an affront to regular roleplayers and love to denigrate regular roleplaying as the work of the "unwashed masses". They are, thankfully, pretty easy to spot.

This blog entry will give you some visual aid on this matter.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;286237This blog entry will give you some visual aid on this matter.

RPGPundit

Thanks, I will have a look at the post ASAP.

Quote from: Skyrock;286215You're German, you're a blogger, and I'm certain that I've seen your handle on some of the bigger forums as Tanelorn/Grofafo or Blutschwerter. You've certainly read what such folks as Settembrini, Myrmidon, Gemüse-Ghoul or I say about this matter, and how we dissected expressions and teaching texts of this sentiment like Uli Kiesows "Auf ein Wort", and it would be both redundant and derailing if we got deeper into this discussion, at least in this thread, and very probably also on this whole forum, as the domestic discourse of the German hobby is of very little concern for the mostly anglophone audience here.

Hmm, that must be someone you have seen there. I am a German and a blogger, but as you've probably noticed I am blogging in englisch and I don't consider me a part of the German roleplaying scene. And as far as I know I have never posted at the forums you mentioned. Perhaps there's someone else who thinks Stargazer is a nice nick name.
Ok, and I agree we should stop discussing the German scene here. The topic was Space 1889 and perhaps we should come back to that...

Quote from: Stargazer;286369I am a German and a blogger, but as you've probably noticed I am blogging in englisch and I don't consider me a part of the German roleplaying scene.

Howzat? You might have quit the domestic discourse on the German-speaking forums (which isn't the worst idea, although things have improved over the last few years), but unless you live abroad, you have to get your players from somewhere... And as long as you keep playing, I can't see how you can quit or escape the "scene". Unless you limit "scene" to interaction beyond single groups.

Especially as at least in my neck of the woods 9.95 of 10 players never enter any hobby forum and give even less of a damn about if someone goofs around on and gets his ideas from German forums or The Big Purple or here or whereever.

I meant that I usually participate in discussion forums etc. with a more international scope and outside of the 'net I stick to my local gaming group. But you are right, you can't really escape the scene. And a few days ago I started a translation of the free game Dungeonslayers (//www.dungeonslayers.de) to english, so I a probably fully rejoined the "scene".
But aside from that I am totally oblivious to what happens in the German RPG scene.

Quote from: Skyrock;286377Especially as at least in my neck of the woods 9.95 of 10 players never enter any hobby forum and give even less of a damn about if someone goofs around on and gets his ideas from German forums or The Big Purple or here or whereever.

Quoted for truth.

Few people in this hobby give a damn about what is said in the internet. And maybe that's a bless.

As Settembrini said once, actually playing RPGs and discussing RPGs in forums are two different, although related, hobbies.