As an OD&D and 4e player, I'm glad I don't have to deal with class balance issues. In my OD&D games, we max out at 10th level so there isn't a big deal between Magic-Users and Fighting Men.

That's one of the reasons I left AD&D decades ago.

Quote from: estar;585211I remember a handful of players who were notorious for ganking PCs and take their stuff in the early 80s. What made it worse was the fact that players with their characters campaign hopped a lot in those days.

Absolutely. I remember those guys. They would gank PCs near the end of adventures, take their magic items and head back to their own campaigns.

As of 1984, I only allowed pre-gens at all my convention games because of players flipping out when their PCs were killed and looted. That solved a plethora of problems for me.

Also by that time, our game club had written rules that any DM could disallow a character from another campaign if they chose. I still remember the crazy club debates where people freaked out about DM's disallowing PCs.

Quote from: StormBringer;585499There are no worthless classes, just worthless players.

True.

In Palladium games, there is a deliberate non-balance between classes and races. The challenge for the DM is to craft adventures where the barely trained militia guy and the uber alien in the mega-robot suit are both able to shine.

It's a challenge, but surprisingly fun.

Quote from: Mr. GC;585549Also, LMFAO at the moron that said none of my posts pertain to actual play. Bitch, please. I've played every edition. Even 4th for as long as I could tolerate it (15 minutes).

I'll assume you're addressing me. It's only fair that I respond, but it will likely be the last response here. Fair warning and all.

I didn't say you didn't play, so which editions you've tried are irrelevant (your goofy non-sequiturs  make you much less interesting than your fellow denners... even Mistborn... you may want to work on that). Your posts are useless though.

MGuy is at least posting his system. Benoist is posting dungeon design stuff. This is new or newish material that may find it's way into actual play. The kind of thing actually useful people post. You're... dragging threads off topic.

And since this thread isn't about you either, so am I. Sorry to the rest of you guys for that. I'm out unless something more on topic interests me.

EDIT: I'll edit this in to avoid double posting, but it just occurred to me: These "portable characters" are new to me. I hear about them, but I've never seen it in play. Is there any particular reason why this went out of style as it were? Was it hopelessly associated with such ganking as was described above? I can see the "incentives" for it, in that there might be few consequences if the second table had no ganked individuals (thereby earning the character loot without dragging the player through the usual social repercussions of this sort of thing).

Quote from: StormBringer;585511I am into the "not gaming with useless douchebags" thing.

How fortunate for you that the rest of your group feels differently.

Quote from: Benoist;585524This thread already warped itself out of shape to then reform as page 464 of the Wizard v. Fighter thread. Amazing.

Yeah, we're on countdown to Danlock, thank god.

Unfortunately, this thread was pretty much inevitably going to turn into fighter v. wizard when half of opening post was:

Quote from: Sacrosanct;585177I mostly see this from the wizard crowd, although it applies to everyone.  If you have the attitude that you're hot shit because you "win" at an encounter, then everyone loses because the other players won't put up with your smug ass for very long.  Especially if you're the smug wizard who thinks the party better bow to your whim (rest when you need it, etc) whether or not it's convenient for the rest of the group.

Quote from: The Butcher;585190And good riddance, I say.

Now how do we flush them out of WoW? I really hope someday I'll find a group that's not in a maddening hurry to clear every dungeon. I want to enjoy the scenery and poke around.

I think some of them went to TOR and others to GW2.  Although I have to admit that I've found that if you avoid the heroic 5-mans, things aren't so bad.

Quote from: beejazz;585568EDIT: I'll edit this in to avoid double posting, but it just occurred to me: These "portable characters" are new to me. I hear about them, but I've never seen it in play. Is there any particular reason why this went out of style as it were? Was it hopelessly associated with such ganking as was described above? I can see the "incentives" for it, in that there might be few consequences if the second table had no ganked individuals (thereby earning the character loot without dragging the player through the usual social repercussions of this sort of thing).

I doubt it died out due to ganking.  I've never played or went to conventions but I played at multiple tables in the mid to late 90s and carried characters between them, and the prevalence of splatbooks, houseruling, DM fiat, et cetera really made the whole process complicated.

I think at some point telling someone "Our group plays D&D" meant very little in terms of what they were actually playing in terms of 'legal' options/products.

There is still the RPGA and spinoff leagues that explicitly define what is a 'legal' character, but those games play more like strategy/wargames to me than what I would call an RPG.  Although I get the distinct vibe that a lot of Old School games were similarly board gamish, and when the hobby went in another direction the idea of just carrying your character sheet between games went out the window with it.

In the end you would need to maintain several separate character sheets for one character anyway unless you were only playing him in one campaign at a time.  Otherwise you wind up with conditions, items, et cetera randomly appearing for no reason.

DM:"Okay, you all meet in the common room of the Inn you stayed at last night."
Dwarf Fighter:"My character is missing his left arm".
Party:"Wow, how did this happen!"
Dwarf Fighter:
Party:"This all happened last night while we were asleep?"
Dwarf Fighter:"Yep."

The whole idea is kind of ridiculous outside of the D&D is a boardgame mode of play, but we did it anyway.

Quote from: Mr. GC;585515And yet you in every way fit the profile of one. So does that mean you don't play with yourself?

"Nuh uh, you are!"

You must have taken the same formal logic classes as DDM.  You have certainly earned the high regard Lord Mistborn has for you.

Quote from: fectin;585577How fortunate for you that the rest of your group feels differently.

Awwww...  Hims so cuuute!  Twying to pway with the adults...

Quote from: beejazz;585568MGuy is at least posting his system. Benoist is  posting dungeon design stuff. This is new or newish material that may  find it's way into actual play. The kind of thing actually useful people  post. You're... dragging threads off topic.

In all honesty, it looks like MGuy might just turn into someone who  contributes around here.  So, considering what we started with, I guess  one out of six or seven isn't bad.

Quote from: fectin;585577How fortunate for you that the rest of your group feels differently.

Awwww...  Hims so cuuute!  Twying to pway with the adults...

Quote from: beejazz;585568MGuy is at least posting his system. Benoist is posting dungeon design stuff. This is new or newish material that may find it's way into actual play. The kind of thing actually useful people post. You're... dragging threads off topic.

In all honesty, it looks like MGuy might just turn into someone who contributes around here.  So, considering what we started with, I guess one out of six or seven isn't bad.

Denial is the most predictable of basketweaver responses. This will be the unpteenth time we Optimizers have had this thread, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;585602Denial is the most predictable of basketweaver responses. This will be the unpteenth time we Optimizers have had this thread, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

Uh huh.  Like they say at tBP, shine on you crazy zebra.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;585591-snipped-

This might actually warrant it's own thread later... I have really no experience at all with this sort of play and have too much to ask about it.

I didn't even consider the conditions and such. Figured on sessions with neater endings and beginnings for this sort of thing I guess.

Quote from: StormBringer;585594In all honesty, it looks like MGuy might just turn into someone who  contributes around here.  So, considering what we started with, I guess  one out of six or seven isn't bad.

DeadDM's okay in discussions. Can't recall for Kaelic or Fectin. LM and this new guy are the only head-scratchers for me.

Quote from: beejazz;585605DeadDM's okay in discussions. Can't recall for Kaelic or Fectin. LM and this new guy are the only head-scratchers for me.

They are all roughly the same.  Unless you agree 100% with their premise free conclusions, they are in full-on butthurt rage.  Which is pretty much the culture over at the Den anyway, so it isn't surprising.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;585452LM, you were the one who "quit" the forum in a dramatic "I am out of here" post. You have been more than welcome to continue posting. Some of the posters may have a negative opinion of you, but no one is terribly concerned about a "lord mistborn thread", whatever that is.

Nobody believed anything Lord Mistborn said to begin with - why would they believe that?  

Winning doesn't have to be about making the rest of the party feel small.  But every player should try to make an effective character.  Let me tell you about a  real experience I had in a long-running 2nd edition game.  

I played an Elven Fighter.  I had some good things going for me.  One of my friends played a Thief.  He wasn't the best in combat, but he tried.  One of the players was a fire-Evoker, and she actually came to dominate most of the combats (but she also drew a card from the Deck of Many Things that gave her tons of extra XP).  One of the players played a Bard named Perrin.  Perrin was Chaotic Neutral, and he was played in the Random Chaotic Stupid fashion.  He would do stupid shit like ride another player (usually the Thief) in combat instead of contributing, or use a cigar (given by Old Man Ketan in a Dungeon Adventure featuring a Kampestri Band) to cauterize wounds (dealing damage).  

Not only did he fail to contribute, he actually made the chance of failure higher.  He enjoyed playing his character, but nobody else liked the character at all.  We liked the player, and we agreed to tolerate the stupid character for the player's sake.  But if we had really been 'characters in the game world', we would have told Perrin to pack up his shit and find someone else to hang with.  

The fact is, the character was a problem - he was deadweight and didn't contribute.  We carried him anyway (see, we're nice), but I know I would have enjoyed the game more if he could be a contributor.  The Thief's player had much more of a problem with it - he'd actually get pissed off because the  bard was so annoying.  

As to whether there are crappy classes or not - generally, there are.  In 3.5, for example, some classes are specifically labeled as 'not suitable for PCs'.  They call them NPC classes - the Warrior, Adept and Aristocrat are among them.  While they could be played, the system recognizes that they don't contribute to the level of a real class.  So, whatever - if you have a great player that chooses one of those classes, he's choosing not to be able to contribute as effectively.  So maybe he's actually a crappy player, but I'm inclined to think that it's just the class that's crappy.  Unfortunately, some 'real' classes fall closer to the NPC classes in power than to the rest of the PC classes.  That may be for a different thread, but I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting each player to be able to contribute.  If they're just a drain on resources, they can ruin the fun.  And that's true even if they're capable of contributing, but choose not to.  For example, if instead of talking nicely to the Duke, the player always makes lewd comments about the guy's daughter (forcing an unnecessary confrontation) I'd understand the players wanting a character that 'helps win' instead of making things harder.  

That's what I want from other players, and that's what I want to contribute myself.