Quote from: Lord Mistborn;586198Regardless of your bizarre willingness to cast spells that kill your party. Surely you can understand how casting spells that don't kill your party might be a better use of your limited resources. Or are you just going to commit a slot everyday to Haste on the off chance that casting a spell that kills your party is going to reduce your risk of TPK.

First let's be clear about one thing, i do not play using the rule that haste warrants a system shock check, nor have I ever played using that rule. So this is purely theoretical andhas never come up for me in play with haste.

That said, there is nothing bizarre about taking spells  that come with some risk to you or the party. Polymorph and teleport both have risks but their benefits make them a good choice in the right circumstances.

Whether or not I would ever memorize haste using the rule that it requires a system shock roll, would depend (as i have stated countless times) on what spells i have available, what foes and threats we are facing, the make up of the part and (most importantly of all) my character's personality and knowledge. I never suggested I would devote a spell slot every day to it. But I could envision a scenario where I wake up knowing we are about to face a very deadly threat and possibly a tpk, where my other options for that slot are not ideal for the situation (or I have enough slots for the level that taking haste as a last minute buffer isn't a big deal), where the characters acting fast and first is critical to survival. If that is the case, i might just memorize haste even with the system shock roll.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;586200First let's be clear about one thing, i do not play using the rule that haste warrants a system shock check, nor have I ever played using that rule. So this is purely theoretical andhas never come up for me in play with haste.

You're not very good at "theoretical andhas" are you.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;586200That said, there is nothing bizarre about taking spells  that come with some risk to you or the party. Polymorph and teleport both have risks but their benefits make them a good choice in the right circumstances.

2e polymorph also kills your party so you don't use that either. As for teleport in 2e it can randomly kill you because lol 2e. So you don't cast either of those spells. You're supposed to be helping the party not adding more lol random arbitrary death to a game already full of lol random arbitrary death.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;586201You're not very good at "theoretical andhas" are you.



2e polymorph also kills your party so you don't use that either. As for teleport in 2e it can randomly kill you because lol 2e. So you don't cast either of those spells. You're supposed to be helping the party not adding more lol random arbitrary death to a game already full of lol random arbitrary death.

You can use 2e polymorph and teleport offensively though...... I think the question you need to ask Brendan woudl be closer to if you had this list of spell and you were fighting / adventuring in each of these situations woudl you learn haste knowig it carries a system shock.

I suspect that in an standard adventure the answer would be no, but if the party know that today is the day that the Fighter is going to face the Archdemon Kerac in single combat to win security for the kingdom then a haste spell may be something that is useful. Likewise if haste is your only 4th (??) level spell then maybe its the one you learn even if you rarely actually cast it.
...and if you had to rescue the princess in 2 days and you knew she had been taken to a distant land you might well have to risk a teleport...

I understand your point. Some spells as written have downsides that are more than the value of the spell itself. This is largely because the game was not redesigned from the base up until 3e and it organically grew from oD&D through to 2e. Some rules are just quirks that were added due to a local issue at a local table and became enshrined or sounded like a good idea at 3rd level and just got rolled in as standards. A few spells in this category is nothing because it includes key elements like the Cleric class.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;586197Sure. I said earlier that i was talking about casting on a willing target.

How do you rule "willing target"? Is the target willing to have any spell cast on them (Which is very dangerous for the castee...), or do you let targets pick and choose spell effects to accept (Which says something very interesting about magic in your world, and how much non-wizards understand about it)?

And if Brendan the Wizard offers to cast Haste on Ladybird the Fighter, and Ladybird says "Okay then", Brendan casts, and Ladybird fails an SS save and falls down dead... how does that look to the rest of the party?

(I'm not being pedantic, I'm genuinely interested. I like risk / reward elements and Seeing What Happens, so "here's a buff, but it might kill you" is a good trade - in the right circumstances. And Stormbringer's right, a "What The Fuck Brendan, why the fuck did Ladybird die, what the fuck did you cast? Are you posessed or something?" scene would be fun to play out.)

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;586201You're not very good at "theoretical andhas" are you.

I type on this forum soley from my ipdad, this should have read "and has".

Quote2e polymorph also kills your party so you don't use that either. As for teleport in 2e it can randomly kill you because lol 2e. So you don't cast either of those spells. You're supposed to be helping the party not adding more lol random arbitrary death to a game already full of lol random arbitrary death.

context is important. Specific scenarios matter. I am not arguing that teleport or haste are always the best choice, but that they can be the best choice for certain situations. When you memorize spells you often have an idea of what you will be facing that day. If you know you might need an exit strategy to avoid a tpk teleport even with the risk of death can be handy. There is also the fact that these are adventurers and they may be willing to take an occassional risk when it comes to spells that have consequences.  Get that you are opposed to random death on principle. Omeofus have no problem with stuff like this and think it adds flavor and excitement to the game. Teleport and polymorph are powerful spells, the risk of death is an important balancer in AD&D and one many people are willing to take on occassion. Your absolutism on this issue doesn't make much sense to me.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;586030Spell casting comes with risks. If we are playi by the rule that haste requires system shock, and I have that spell, there will be times when I make the calculation that it is worth risking the lives of party members if I believe it improves their chances of surviving a really dangerous encounter.

And if you're casting a spell with any drawback, it had better be amazing or it doesn't get used. Haste does not qualify, so either you use Haste with no drawback or you do not use Haste.

QuoteI am not really sure what you are trying to demonstrate to people with these kinds of claims. You may well know a lot about AD&D. i dont know the extent of your knowledge sonit is certainly possible you know as much or more than many who play that edition. However won't assume its encyclopedic just because you know the haste/aging rules.

The default stance of these boards is:

If you don't know about older editions we don't give a fuck about you and will dismiss you out of hand even if not actually discussing those games at this time.
Only actual play matters, anything else is an OCD autist circle jerk.

So when I come in, show I know the older games better than those here, then try to talk about actual play and everyone ignores that over and over and over again in favor of some ignorance circle jerk about willfully misunderstanding the words coming out of my keyboard or sperging on about the Haste tangent it makes the entire fucking board look hypocritical.

So what I am trying to demonstrate is one of:

Almost the entire board is a bunch of fucking hypocrites.
The board can do what they say they will do and actually address the point.

Which of those is actually demonstrated is not my call.

Quote from: fectin;586094Dude... Arcane Eye really doesn't work well in any level-appropriate situation.
It's completely countered by darkness or invisibility, only flies preprogrammed routes, and has to return to you to dump any info it does gather. In the meantime, basically anything that sees one is going to be able to bust it, and it's not great at hiding (because preprogrammed routes and good lighting).

This is true. Arcane Eye, if cast would just give the enemy early warning as most of them have some means of detecting it. Still though, the party can get enough information simply because if you cast a divination that isn't of the alert enemy type, even vague information tells you what you need to know.

Saying "turns nature against you" and "Druid" is the same to any experienced player. And so on down the line.

===========================

Hello ladies. Look at your party. Now back to me. Now back at your party. Now back to me. Sadly, they aren't me. But if they stopped buffing each other to death and started playing smartly they could win D&D like me. Look down. Up. Where are you? You're on a boat! With the group your group could win like! What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It's the rulebooks filled with all the good spells. Look again. The rulebooks are now diamonds! Anything is possible when your party kills the enemies and not each other. I'm on a Cauchemar.

Quote from: Ladybird;586207How do you rule "willing target"? Is the target willing to have any spell cast on them (Which is very dangerous for the castee...), or do you let targets pick and choose spell effects to accept (Which says something very interesting about magic in your world, and how much non-wizards understand about it)?

And if Brendan the Wizard offers to cast Haste on Ladybird the Fighter, and Ladybird says "Okay then", Brendan casts, and Ladybird fails an SS save and falls down dead... how does that look to the rest of the party?

(I'm not being pedantic, I'm genuinely interested. I like risk / reward elements and Seeing What Happens, so "here's a buff, but it might kill you" is a good trade - in the right circumstances. And Stormbringer's right, a "What The Fuck Brendan, why the fuck did Ladybird die, what the fuck did you cast? Are you posessed or something?" scene would be fun to play out.)

This depends on the level of metgaming going on in one's group.

In my groups this sort of stuff we be dscussed by the party well before combat. "look i have a spell that might give us an edge by increasing everyone's speed, but it carries the risk of death. If everyone assents I can prepare it and cast it at on an agreed upon signal should it look like the battle isn't going our way"

That is if i am playing a character with a solid moral compass. A selfish bastard of a character might just cast haste or teleport to save his hide and not ask permission. In which case, you get the "what the fuck" scenario. But keep in mind, my group is role pay heavy. They expect me to play my character even if i puts me in skme conflict with them. The response wouldn't be "what the fuck brendan" but "what the fuck Pendrogast"

Quote from: Mr. GC;586210And if you're casting a spell with any drawback, it had better be amazing or it doesn't get used. Haste does not qualify, so either you use Haste with no drawback or you do not use Haste.

Nope, i think i will use haste if the circumstances or my character's personality warrant casting it. It is all very situation dependant. It might not be wise to memorize all the time but like I said if my spell choices for the slot are not idea, i know a tpk is likely given our mission or odds, speed is crucial to success, and more attacks could make a big difference, i might take the risk.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;586211This depends on the level of metgaming going on in one's group.

In my groups this sort of stuff we be dscussed by the party well before combat. "look i have a spell that might give us an edge by increasing everyone's speed, but it carries the risk of death. If everyone assents I can prepare it and cast it at on an agreed upon signal should it look like the battle isn't going our way"

That is if i am playing a character with a solid moral compass. A selfish bastard of a character might just cast haste or teleport to save his hide and not ask permission. In which case, you get the "what the fuck" scenario. But keep in mind, my group is role pay heavy. They expect me to play my character even if i puts me in skme conflict with them. The response wouldn't be "what the fuck brendan" but "what the fuck Pendrogast"

Good post.

Most of my charaters probably wouldn't warn them first though. The lower classes have so little understandng of magic that its rarely worth trying to explain it  to them

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;586213Nope, i think i will use haste if the circumstances or my character's personality warrant casting it. It is all very situation dependant. It might not be wise to memorize all the time but like I said if my spell choices for the slot are not idea, i know a tpk is likely given our mission or odds, speed is crucial to success, and more attacks could make a big difference, i might take the risk.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586210Hello ladies. Look at your party. Now back to me. Now back at your party. Now back to me. Sadly, they aren't me. But if they stopped buffing each other to death and started playing smartly they could win D&D like me. Look down. Up. Where are you? You're on a boat! With the group your group could win like! What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It's the rulebooks filled with all the good spells. Look again. The rulebooks are now diamonds! Anything is possible when your party kills the enemies and not each other. I'm on a Cauchemar.

Because it needs repeating.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586210And if you're casting a spell with any drawback, it had better be amazing or it doesn't get used. Haste does not qualify, so either you use Haste with no drawback or you do not use Haste.



The default stance of these boards is:

If you don't know about older editions we don't give a fuck about you and will dismiss you out of hand even if not actually discussing those games at this time.
Only actual play matters, anything else is an OCD autist circle jerk.

So when I come in, show I know the older games better than those here, then try to talk about actual play and everyone ignores that over and over and over again in favor of some ignorance circle jerk about willfully misunderstanding the words coming out of my keyboard or sperging on about the Haste tangent it makes the entire fucking board look hypocritical.

So what I am trying to demonstrate is one of:

Almost the entire board is a bunch of fucking hypocrites.
The board can do what they say they will do and actually address the point.

Which of those is actually demonstrated is not my call.



This is true. Arcane Eye, if cast would just give the enemy early warning as most of them have some means of detecting it. Still though, the party can get enough information simply because if you cast a divination that isn't of the alert enemy type, even vague information tells you what you need to know.

Saying "turns nature against you" and "Druid" is the same to any experienced player. And so on down the line.

===========================

Hello ladies. Look at your party. Now back to me. Now back at your party. Now back to me. Sadly, they aren't me. But if they stopped buffing each other to death and started playing smartly they could win D&D like me. Look down. Up. Where are you? You're on a boat! With the group your group could win like! What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It's the rulebooks filled with all the good spells. Look again. The rulebooks are now diamonds! Anything is possible when your party kills the enemies and not each other. I'm on a Cauchemar.

See my earlier post.

There are 3 obvious cases when you might use Haste

i) You only have haste at that level so its learnt and a situation of die or use it turns up - this is affected by older school aproaches to spell acquisition
ii) There is a specific challenge known about in advance where the benefit of haste out weighs potential negatives in that specific case - like a trial by combat for example - this is affected by the style and approach to games
iii) Where the caster is a bit of a wanker and regards the loss of fighter or yet another shouty dwarf as a reasonable risk to take for the rewards on offer - this is affected by the level of role play, in "RPG as sports" to use Estar's terminology no its probably  not the most optimal choice but if you are playing Black Frank the evil wizard and the rest of the party are just blokes you met in a tavern a few weeks back , and you have a suitable exit strategy if things go tits up then yeah fucking give it a go

Quote from: Mr. GC;586216Because it needs repeating.

Okay. I didn't say anything about casting endless buffs. I said there can be times when having a spell like haste (even with a system shock check) will be a good choice and worth the risk. This is entirely dependant on circumstances of course.

Again when:

-tpk looks likely anyways
-other spells for the slot are not a good fit or you have plenty of room to work with
-speed is crucial to successs of the mission
-getting more attacks could turn the tide

Haste is a reasonable choice.

Haste is a powerful combat spell, but it ages you a year.

Most people would not want to lose a year of their life.


In my opinion, haste does not need a system shock roll.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586210So what I am trying to demonstrate is one of:

Almost the entire board is a bunch of fucking hypocrites.
The board can do what they say they will do and actually address the point.

Which of those is actually demonstrated is not my call.

You need to shut up. Maybe 10? posters have engaged with you in this thread. By all means throw your toys out of the pram, but keep these kinds of ridiculous claims to yourself.

Quote from: Bill;586219Haste is a powerful combat spell, but it ages you a year.

Most people would not want to lose a year of their life.


In my opinion, haste does not need a system shock roll.

If that was all it was you'd just spam Haste on demi humans and never use Haste on humans and call it a day. But it isn't. It's just one more way the game tries to horribly kill you. The only reason people aren't bothered by it is because they're already dying non stop anyways so what's one more death source, and many are just pretending they won't die at all.

But really though Haste is worthless in every edition but third. Prior to third, it kills you so you don't use it. After third, it barely does anything so you don't use it.

On third you Haste yourself because casters weren't strong enough already... :rolleyes: No edition has a balanced and reasonable Haste.

Now shut up about Haste already.