Quote from: knight.errant;844758Once drivethru has completed their ritual, is there any chance of getting a copy of the pdf if we've already purchased the book?

That's something you'll have to consult with the publisher.

Hum sorry, but I don't intend to make retroactive bundles... I think this would open a pandora box.

Quote from: RPGPundit;844840That's something you'll have to consult with the publisher.

Quote from: Turanil;844894Hum sorry, but I don't intend to make retroactive bundles... I think this would open a pandora box.

I must say,  these are some pretty crap "Not my problem, take it up with someone else" answers and does not inspire me to buy your product.

Telling a customer to "consult with the publisher, I don't know" is a poor answer indeed.
At least Something like "Hey I don't know but I'll look into it" would be great.
It's not like you're  some massive game producer with 100s of thousands of sales.
I would have thought going out of your way to help people out with enquiries would be priority 1 to garner trust and a good reputation from people.

Also, if I'd spent a fair amount of money on a hardback, not getting a bundled PDF with it (although I wouldn't buy a physical RPG book if the PDF wasn't thrown in as part of the bundle anyway), only to find later, others were getting a book+ PDF bundle, I'd not be very happy. so saying "sorry, it's a Pandora's box of problems, not happening", is a really poor excuse.

I'm a pretty loyal customer of Sine Nomine products, having bought most of his products.
Now I really like his work in general, but even so, a sizeable part of my decisions to buy his stuff is his excellent customer service attitude.
When I bought a hardback copy of SWN (which came with a free PDF btw), there was an issue with the print quality.
I originally contacted him (Kevin Crawford) about it and he got straight back to me with contact details for drivethru publishing and even said that if I got no joy with Drivethru, he'd refund me personally for the book.
As it turned out, Drivethru came through for me anyway and I knew it wasn't his fault at all, so I wouldn't have accepted a refund from him personally, as it was the printer that had an issue not him.
But still, his fantastic attitude to deal with the issue really cemented me as a regular customer and I've bought lots of his stuff and it's continued to be of high quality.
I've probably spent 100s of $$s on his work over the last few years, whether in a pbook format or PDFs only.

I know this post comes off as snarky, but I find those responses really unproductive and a pretty poor customer service.
I think you should rethink your attitude about this.
I really don't understand why a PDF wasn't thrown in with the physical book anyway.

Lulu doesn't tell me who bought hardcover books. So anybody could tell me he bought one to get a free PDF. And I don't remember seeing an option on Lulu to sell bundles. There is only on RPGNow, but it takes much time (several weeks) before I am able to set the printed book available for sale.

When you buy the PDF, you not just get a digital version of the book. The PDF ebook is fully bookmarked for easy navigation (which represents a small increase in value) and it comes with 19 maps (the hex-maps are already in the book, but all the others not).

Lastly you can ponder this: Internet being what it is, the PDF has already been pirated twice (i.e.: made available for free download illegally somewhere). I asked the sites to remove the file, but no doubt they will eventually pop-up elsewhere. Hence, some people may decide they deserve to get the PDF for free and get it that way. However, those who pay help the future release of more books, such as adventures. If all of this get enough money, more adventures specific to Dark Albion will be released. Paying for the products full price is a kind of informal kickstarter for support material.

There will eventually be some bundle on RPGNow/Drivethru, but it's a long process (even if all the files have already be uploaded) requiring to wait.

Quote from: danskmacabre;844989I must say,  these are some pretty crap "Not my problem, take it up with someone else" answers and does not inspire me to buy your product.

Telling a customer to "consult with the publisher, I don't know" is a poor answer indeed.

The reason I say that is because I am NOT the publisher, or a publisher. I'm a writer.  It would be like expecting some guy who wrote a novel to tell you what his publishing house's policy would be on something.  And the reason I didn't say "let me check on that" is conversely because I know the publisher is right here, and would see this shortly and comment.

Maybe you honestly didn't know that, but given your post-count I'd find it hard to believe you don't.

QuoteAlso, if I'd spent a fair amount of money on a hardback, not getting a bundled PDF with it (although I wouldn't buy a physical RPG book if the PDF wasn't thrown in as part of the bundle anyway), only to find later, others were getting a book+ PDF bundle, I'd not be very happy. so saying "sorry, it's a Pandora's box of problems, not happening", is a really poor excuse.

If you were told repeatedly about the book, how it was coming out, and were told time and time again "if you want the book and PDF you need to wait until the Pod+PDF bundle is available on RPGnow", would you then be likewise outraged?
Because that's what actually happened here, rather than the scenario you painted above.

QuoteWhen I bought a hardback copy of SWN (which came with a free PDF btw), there was an issue with the print quality. I originally contacted him (Kevin Crawford) about it and he got straight back to me with contact details for drivethru publishing and even said that if I got no joy with Drivethru, he'd refund me personally for the book.

I'm sure that if there is an issue of print quality with any of Dominique's books, he'd get right back to you too and help you with your problem.

QuoteI really don't understand why a PDF wasn't thrown in with the physical book anyway.

It is. With the PoD copy that people will be able to get on RPGnow, like we've said over and over again from the very beginning.

Quote from: Turanil;845025Lulu doesn't tell me who bought hardcover books. So anybody could tell me he bought one to get a free PDF.

You're the publisher and it's your call. But what I would suggest is this: anyone who posts a picture on their blog, or G+ or Facebook, of their print copy Albion book could receive a coupon for the same discount as the price reduction will be on the eventual Pod+PDF at RPGnow.  Simple, fun, and lets people show off their Albion books to their friends and readers.

Personally I saw the product here, decided I had to have it as I've always wanted to do a game based on the WotR, grabbed the pdf (for less than 7UKP), looked over it, decided I wouldn't wait until the bundle was available and having had good service (and product quality) from Lulu  (RQ6 Essentials) went over there and got the book with the alternative cover. It arrived as promised within 2 working days and looks beautiful. I've been extolling it's virtues wherever I saw someone posting about DA (it's my sort-of-review that was posted over at the Tavern and reposted here).

There is something that could be discussed, and belongs probably to another thread:

Many people believe that if they buy a physical copy of a book, they deserve to get an ebook copy for free. Many publishers provide bundles for marketing purposes, which of course reinforces the belief. However, they do it for marketing purposes (or just because they are generous, or whatever), not because of some ethical untold obligation. When someone buys two copies of a printed book, they don't ask they should get the second one at a discounted price. Why should this be different when buying a PDF and a printed book? (Especially as the PDF is already much cheaper than the printed book, and this one comes with bookmarks and a bunch of maps, so comes with more stuff. Plus the fact that a GM might decide to give copies of that PDF* to his players, which is imposible with a printed book.)

So, I don't see why it should be taken for granted that buying a printed book automatically should grant you a free PDF copy. It's your opinion, you have the right to it, but it's not an obvious ethical obligation toward customers.

By the way, the bundle won't grant a free PDF copy, only a discount on it.

(*: if only the pages on character creation, background, new classes, etc., to help them create their PCs.)

Some publishers proved a free pdf (Cubicle 7), some don't

C'est la vie

The trouble with pdfs is, whilst they are great for reading through a massive tome, they are next to useless for using as a rules reference at the table; regardless of bookmarks and hyper-links. ? My opinion of course

Thus I won't buy 'just' the pdf any more

You could argue that pdfs should be more expensive than hard copies - because of piracy

I think it depends a lot on the type of PDF in question.

In this particular case, the Dark Albion PDF is very well done, thoroughly bookmarked, and comes with extra material in the form of additional maps that the print book does not have. So selling it separately (or bundled with PoD but not free) is I think reasonable.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;845036Personally I saw the product here, decided I had to have it as I've always wanted to do a game based on the WotR, grabbed the pdf (for less than 7UKP), looked over it, decided I wouldn't wait until the bundle was available and having had good service (and product quality) from Lulu  (RQ6 Essentials) went over there and got the book with the alternative cover. It arrived as promised within 2 working days and looks beautiful. I've been extolling it's virtues wherever I saw someone posting about DA (it's my sort-of-review that was posted over at the Tavern and reposted here).

Thanks so much!

Quote from: RPGPundit;845032The reason I say that is because I am NOT the publisher, or a publisher. I'm a writer.  It would be like expecting some guy who wrote a novel to tell you what his publishing house's policy would be on something.  And the reason I didn't say "let me check on that" is conversely because I know the publisher is right here, and would see this shortly and comment.

Maybe you honestly didn't know that, but given your post-count I'd find it hard to believe you don't.

So as a writer, you don't feel it's your job to know about how your product you've been working on is printed and how the offers hang together?
Really?  It's not like there's huge amounts of combinations of purchases to memorise.
Yes I realise another guy is responsible for printing the book, but I really expected you know the terms and conditions of what you get and how much your work costs etc...

Quote from: RPGPundit;845032If you were told repeatedly about the book, how it was coming out, and were told time and time again "if you want the book and PDF you need to wait until the Pod+PDF bundle is available on RPGnow", would you then be likewise outraged?
Because that's what actually happened here, rather than the scenario you painted above.

Yes I get it was made 100% crystal clear that if you buy the Physical hardback copy, you won't get a PDF. but if in the future you DO get a PDF free as part of a bundle, I'd be pretty pissed if I forked out for the hardback and wasn't offered a PDF for free (although you're wrong, you don't get a free PDF with the Softback bundle anyway).

Quote from: RPGPundit;845032I'm sure that if there is an issue of print quality with any of Dominique's books, he'd get right back to you too and help you with your problem.

I never disputed that, I was just stating the great customer service (in addition to a free PDF) I got from Sine Nomine.

Quote from: RPGPundit;845032It is. With the PoD copy that people will be able to get on RPGnow, like we've said over and over again from the very beginning.

Erm, wait, no it's NOT free with the bundle actually, as clarified a bit later after this post I quoted.  So I dunno what YOU'VE been saying over and over, but if you HAVE been saying that, then apparently it's WRONG.

Look, the bottom line is lots of RPG product comes with a free PDF with a hard copy.
Sure it's your choice not to, but for many people, not doing so will lose you sales.

Anyway, whilst my feeling Dark Albion is a decent product. I certainly won't be buying it twice (A hard copy + a PDF), as if I actually use an RPG product, I personally need a hard copy when I actually use it regularly and a PDF to browse.
I actually WAS pretty interested in getting a Hard copy, as I'd probably use it in one form or another in a RPG. One day I might buy the PDF by itself if it's cheap enough.
Or more likely just wait and see if a Softback + free PDF bundle ever appears.

I think you should rethink your sales strategy as I think it's a shame you don't offer a PDF freebie with a hard copy, but hey, it's no skin off my nose, there's plenty of other RPG product out there that does.

Quote from: Turanil;845037Many people believe that if they buy a physical copy of a book, they deserve to get an ebook copy for free. Many publishers provide bundles for marketing purposes, which of course reinforces the belief. However, they do it for marketing purposes (or just because they are generous, or whatever), not because of some ethical untold obligation.

Yeah I'm one of those people who think they should get a free PDF with a printed book. It just makes sense to me.
I haven't bought a physical book from a bookstore for years, as I buy epubs instead for novels.
If bookstores had offered a free epub version of a printed book in their stores (for example, a unique code or something printed on a receipt or whatever),  I'd still be buying physical books from bookstores.
As it stands, I rarely buy novels in a pbook format.
Bookstores didn't move forward and adapt and they're dying for that reason.

Quote from: Turanil;845037When someone buys two copies of a printed book, they don't ask they should get the second one at a discounted price. Why should this be different when buying a PDF and a printed book? (Especially as the PDF is already much cheaper than the printed book, and this one comes with bookmarks and a bunch of maps, so comes with more stuff. Plus the fact that a GM might decide to give copies of that PDF* to his players, which is impossible with a printed book.)

A PDF is not the same as a printed book. It's a hell of a lot more effort to pirate a pbook than a PDF or epub.
Sure people pirate digital copies of material. but that's neither here no there in this discussion. If it is THAT relevant, then you shouldn't sell electronic copies of your books at all. Coz whether you sell the PDF or it's bundled, some people are still going to illegally distribute it.
 

Quote from: Turanil;845037So, I don't see why it should be taken for granted that buying a printed book automatically should grant you a free PDF copy. It's your opinion, you have the right to it, but it's not an obvious ethical obligation toward customers.

Well, hopefully some of my points will give food for thought or if not, yes everyone is entitled to their opinion of course.
I dunno about the whole "Ethics" point, but as a business sales strategy, it makes sense and I think you'll make more money and get more loyal customers for future product if you do.

Quote from: RPGPundit;845059I think it depends a lot on the type of PDF in question.

In this particular case, the Dark Albion PDF is very well done, thoroughly bookmarked, and comes with extra material in the form of additional maps that the print book does not have. So selling it separately (or bundled with PoD but not free) is I think reasonable.

Speaking of additional content in PDFs. some publishers just give away additional material for free in PDF format, hoping that people will buy their core products, it certainly worked on me.
Again, Kevin Crawford does this, he gives away huge amounts of his work. But I also buy the stuff he charges for as I know the quality is good.
Another interesting thing he did was give away a version of the SWN rules (minus robots and AI I believe) and charged for the complete rules.
So I actually got to play around with SWN to see if I liked it, which I did and when onto buy most of the product he charged for.

I'm not trying to tell you how to do your business. I'm sure lots of people will buy Dark Albion whether it comes with a free PDF or not.
It looks from what I've seen a really nice product.
I just think it's worth noting there are IMO better alternatives to this and would probably increase sales.

It's nice that the PDF has some additional content, but it would have made just as much sense to put less work into doing that and throw in the PDF for free and release high resolution maps either for free or cheap.

If you were going to use Appendix P in your campaign, would you adjust monsters' HP similar to the PC classes; giving them a +1 or +2 per HD instead of a d8 per HD?