Quote from: jhkimChris' listing was a mistake.  I would guess he didn't know much about Artesia, and it simply looks so slick that he thought it was put out by a big company.

I know it was a mistake. I can't help but notice that out of all the games he could have mistaken for a mainstream game, it had to be one of the game with the least presence at the Forge.

Understand that I am not pissed at the Forge. I am pissed at the many mouthbreathers who worship the place with blinders or who don't get their facts straight.

Since this guy says he's "pushing" that sort of games at his store, it's just too bad he can't push one of the better ones.

It''s like that farce of calling Burning Wheel a "story game". It's not any more of a "story game" than Cyberpunk 2020, for fuck's sake.

Quote from: Consonant DudeIt''s like that farce of calling Burning Wheel a "story game". It's not any more of a "story game" than Cyberpunk 2020, for fuck's sake.

By your definition of "story game", versus his? Maybe that's where the disconnect is? Besides I'm getting the impression this list is more about IPR titles?

EDIT: I personally don't use "story game" because I don't know WTF it means, and people seem to get all stupid around the term thinking you aren't rolling dice and just sitting there hugging each other and crying about how beautiful this sweater that you almost bought was.

P.S. He might have (mistakenly?) not included Artesia in the IPR list because they only switched to being carried by IPR some time mid-year (April it looks like from the Artesia site). Also, are they exclusively carried through IPR? Since jhkim has an account there, and he's apparently asking questions by proxy....

Quote from: jhkimUm, hello?  Obviously, if you hate playing those games (as you apparently do), then yes, it would get old very quick.  Duh.  However, to those who like those games, no, it doesn't get old.  

I actually don't mean old as in "Man, this mormon shit is tedious", but rather old as in "We're learning another new game? Didn't we just try a new one last week?"

On top of that, I don't even think the first game of anything counts as more than a demo or a tryout. the repeat experience is where the game really gets played.

Quote from: blakkieEDIT: I personally don't use "story game" because I don't know WTF it means, and people seem to get all stupid around the term thinking you aren't rolling dice and just sitting there hugging each other and crying about how beautiful this sweater that you almost bought was.

Thats totally what I thought the Story-Game experience was!

QuoteI actually don't mean old as in "Man, this mormon shit is tedious", but rather old as in "We're learning another new game? Didn't we just try a new one last week?"

If you have a few hundred pages of rules to read that have the requirements to be extremely flexibile to handle a really wide scope? Sure. I think that really hampers Hackmaster since it is often thought of [with merit] as a satire more than actual game, but to play a 'joke' game you've got a couple books that would choke a freaking Purple Worm?

Perhaps it's different when you've only got a couple dozen pages of focused rules?  EDIT: The later might even really encourage trying out something new, because 'trying out' a really fat book probably involves someone doing a hell of a lot of reading and comprehending.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThats totally what I thought the Story-Game experience was!

I haven't played it but I'm pretty sure DitV uses dice. And sometimes you punch people, even shoot them! So WTF is it doing in that list? (j/k)

Quote from: RPGPunditHmm, interesting figures, but in the bigger picture I don't think they mean much. Remember, it is california we're talking about there, the "land of fruits and nuts" so its no surprise that their tastes be out of the mainstream.

Please, try to not be an ass about it.  That said, you're right about one thing -- localised tastes don't set a trend.*  Game stores, like comic shops, tend to attract a certain clientele, usually in accord with one another's tastes.  So, the figures for one store tell us more about the clientele the owner has cultivated than the popularity of the games themselves.

As Clash said, "But will it play in Peoria?"

!i!

[*Edit: Well, beyond localised trends, that is.]

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaPlease, try to not be an ass about it.  That said, you're right about one thing -- localised tastes don't set a trend.*  Game stores, like comic shops, tend to attract a certain clientele, usually in accord with one another's tastes.  So, the figures for one store tell us more about the clientele the owner has cultivated than the popularity of the games themselves.

As Clash said, "But will it play in Peoria?"

Yeah, I really like that he put in those two important disclaimers right up front about the marketing effort that he put in and what kind of volume store he runs. Although he didn't mention what overall chunk of sales were RPGs. At 50K total for the year I'm guessing it's a fairly low percentage.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThat said, you're right about one thing -- localised tastes don't set a trend.*  Game stores, like comic shops, tend to attract a certain clientele, usually in accord with one another's tastes.  So, the figures for one store tell us more about the clientele the owner has cultivated than the popularity of the games themselves.

Well, the important data from this isn't simply that indie RPGs are 13% of sales (which is statistically rather small), but that overall RPGs are up 25% from the previous year (which is a more substantial number -- $50K in sales).  

Now, this also could just be localized taste, but at least here the relative success of indie RPGs did not come at the expense of other RPGs.  Chris Hanrahan has been promoting indie RPGs, and yet sales of other RPGs have still steadily gone up in a market which has generally been going down.  So even if you consider story gamers to be a separate hobby of fruits and nuts, they're a separate hobby like boardgaming  --  rather than being at war with mainstream RPGs like some people claim.

Quote from: blakkieBy your definition of "story game", versus his? Maybe that's where the disconnect is?

Well, I'd really like to see his definition.

Because he seems to be putting all kinds of games as "story games", regardless of what they actually accomplish and solely on the basis of the support they get on the Forge.

Quote from: jhkimNow, this also could just be localized taste, but at least here the relative success of indie RPGs did not come at the expense of other RPGs.  Chris Hanrahan has been promoting indie RPGs, and yet sales of other RPGs have still steadily gone up in a market which has generally been going down.  So even if you consider story gamers to be a separate hobby of fruits and nuts, they're a separate hobby like boardgaming  --  rather than being at war with mainstream RPGs like some people claim.

Blasphemy.  There are no innocents in a time of war.  Off with your head.  

!i!

Quote from: jhkimWell, the important data from this isn't simply that indie RPGs are 13% of sales (which is statistically rather small), but that overall RPGs are up 25% from the previous year (which is a more substantial number -- $50K in sales).  

Now, this also could just be localized taste, but at least here the relative success of indie RPGs did not come at the expense of other RPGs.  Chris Hanrahan has been promoting indie RPGs, and yet sales of other RPGs have still steadily gone up in a market which has generally been going down.  So even if you consider story gamers to be a separate hobby of fruits and nuts, they're a separate hobby like boardgaming  --  rather than being at war with mainstream RPGs like some people claim.

I think a lot of people are responding to this with undue negativity; even if there is a bit of a subtext to bringing the data over here, frankly, who cares? It's interesting stuff just to pick apart.

That said, let's look at a hypothetical scenario.

Last year: 100 games sold, all non-indie.
This year: 108 non-indie games sold, but 16 indie games sold.

Result: overall RPG sales are up by 24, or 24%. Indie games are 13% of this year's sales. But non-indie sales grew only 8%.

Another scenario:

Last year: 80 non-indie games sold, 20 indie.
This year: 108 non-indie games sold, and 16 indie games.

Result: overall RPG sales are up by 24%, but non-indie sales grew by 35%.

In short we really don't have any data on where the growth in sales is occurring. I'd guess that indie game sales are growing faster at Endgame than non-indie, simply because they're starting from very low exposure to increased promotion. But we really don't know.

We also don't know if indie games are cannibalizing non-indie sales. Sure, no matter what scenario we work from, non-indie sales at Endgame have to have gone up in order for Chris to see 24% increase in the overall RPG category. But would they have gone up more without the presence of indie games in the market? Who knows? From a pure economic standpoint, all discretionary expenditures compete with each other--so boardgames compete with RPGs compete with going to the stadium competes with going to the movies. But you can certainly have local synergies so that indie RPGs might pique interest in non-indie games.