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Author Topic: X-Cards and things  (Read 14206 times)

jhkim

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X-Cards and things
« Reply #120 on: October 18, 2018, 01:32:12 PM »
Quote from: SHARK
I just have my doubts about all of the coddling going on...oh, my god, you were *raped* before? Fine. What the fuck does that have to do with these orcs raping women from mayberry over here, which, by the way, is a make-believe, fantasy world and fantasy game we're playing.
Quote from: Lurtch;1060747
Referees or games where rapes take place and/or are described in detail are games that I would get up and just leave. Doing that adds nothing to the game, at all.
Quote from: jeff37923;1060748
Ditto.

If it is graphic sex or violence, I just fade to black and let it happen off screen. Those things still happen in my games, I just don't see the need to shove them in people's faces.
So... different players have different lines about rape. There might even be some in-between cases where it's not enough to walk out, but it's enough to make someone uncomfortable and say "Hey, can we not do this?"  And that can absolutely be done without an X-card.

Still, I think a lot of the pushback has been about imaginary cases where a player is constantly touching the X-card over owls or strong language or whatever. However, from what I've seen, that isn't how these games actually work in practice. I played in horror games with the X-card that had disturbing content and no one touched it, so I think it was there for more serious cases like this.

Lurtch

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« Reply #121 on: October 18, 2018, 01:56:53 PM »
Have any of you, in your games, not theoretically, but in actual play, ever had rape play a part in the game?


It's never once happened in my decades of gaming.

jeff37923

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« Reply #122 on: October 18, 2018, 01:59:39 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1060859
Still, I think a lot of the pushback has been about imaginary cases where a player is constantly touching the X-card over owls or strong language or whatever.

To be clear, that isn't the case for me.

An X-card appearing in a game is an indication to me that the person advocating it does not want to resolve what may be troubling them, the just want to stop it without ever telling me what "it" is. The X-card indicates that the person advocating it believes that a role-playing game may cause them psychological distress and that they do not trust the person running the game to be competent enough to understand where common boundaries of good taste exist (which begs the question of "Why are they playing in the first place?"). In short, an X-card is an indicator that fun will likely be spoiled at that table. Regardless, the use of X-cards is a sign that the advocates of them are people that I do not wish to game with.
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Azraele

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« Reply #123 on: October 18, 2018, 02:07:50 PM »
Quote from: jeff37923;1060868
To be clear, that isn't the case for me.

An X-card appearing in a game is an indication to me that the person advocating it does not want to resolve what may be troubling them, the just want to stop it without ever telling me what "it" is. The X-card indicates that the person advocating it believes that a role-playing game may cause them psychological distress and that they do not trust the person running the game to be competent enough to understand where common boundaries of good taste exist (which begs the question of "Why are they playing in the first place?"). In short, an X-card is an indicator that fun will likely be spoiled at that table. Regardless, the use of X-cards is a sign that the advocates of them are people that I do not wish to game with.

Wow, yes. Absolutely this.

It'd take a strong, at-the-table argument to convince me otherwise: paradoxically, they would be persuasively arguing for their inability to communicate.
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Abraxus

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« Reply #124 on: October 18, 2018, 02:14:44 PM »
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1060854
https://www.google.com/search?q=x+card&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=sivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5jNWtupDeAhVCh1QKHYaoAiQQ_AUIEigC&biw=1024&bih=643#imgrc=w2s45hy8OLfehM


I see your either a fan of the X-men, Malcoln X or porn. Either way your a good egg in my book.

jhkim

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« Reply #125 on: October 18, 2018, 02:24:46 PM »
Quote from: Lurtch;1060867
Have any of you, in your games, not theoretically, but in actual play, ever had rape play a part in the game?

It's never once happened in my decades of gaming.
It's only come up a handful of times, but yeah, it's come up. I can recall a case in Ars Magica when I was a player, and in a dark old west game. And in a superhero game (using mind control). And it's come up in a few larps - though as an important event that happened off-screen rather than an in-game action.

Particularly these days, my preference is like yours. I prefer it not happening in my games at all. In historical games that I run, I've generally said that it's understood that rape happens - like as part of the pillaging in my viking game - but we're not going to mention it at all. In fantasy or sci-fi games, I just don't mention it at all.

Quote from: jeff37923;1060868
The X-card indicates that the person advocating it believes that a role-playing game may cause them psychological distress and that they do not trust the person running the game to be competent enough to understand where common boundaries of good taste exist (which begs the question of "Why are they playing in the first place?"). In short, an X-card is an indicator that fun will likely be spoiled at that table. Regardless, the use of X-cards is a sign that the advocates of them are people that I do not wish to game with.
I think people have different ideas about what is good taste. Notably, it seems like Lurtch thinks that rape should never come up at all - whereas you think that it's OK if it comes up but it is faded to black rather than described.

When you say "fun will likely be spoiled"...  Would it matter if it was said that in the last dozen games, the X-card was never used? My impression from the games I played in that used the X-card is that it is considered like having a fire extinguisher - very unlikely to be used, but there just in case.

Steven Mitchell

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« Reply #126 on: October 18, 2018, 02:36:49 PM »
Quote from: Motorskills;1060855
Firstly I really like the egg-timer thing, I think I might adopt some version of that.

Secondly having a communication tool doesn't mean there will be communication. After all, you should prefer that your egg timer never gets used, right?

If the egg timer keeps getting flipped, your game table is failing. Not necessarily terminally so, but the egg timer doesn't directly fix the root cause, it isn't intended to.
(That said, I'm happy to accept that it might - if the same guy keeps getting the egg timer flipped on him, hopefully he will start to learn to sharpen his play.)

I'd also dispute that the X-card doesn't mean that you can't talk like adults. In fact I would argue the reverse. "I am starting to have an issue, I'd like you to listen to me". I think it immediately focuses the conversation, gives a start point for an adult conversation, distinguishes it from a regular whine. Now the GM can decide that the player should suck it up or leave, the player may make that decision for himself.

I've thinking back at all the tables where there have been bad experiences (not necessarily my own) - the egg timer would have certainly some of mitigated those, some version of an X-card might well have mitigated others. In many cases, no system would have mitigated the issue which was fundamentally interpersonal.

There is merit to your points here.  I thought about the egg timer as something analogous to the X-card that we use.  On the surface, it might sound as if I'm being terribly inconsistent with my positions here.  And maybe I am, somewhat.  I went ahead and used it anyway, because I'm not trying to win an argument but to explain where I'm coming from.

In practice, we don't flip the egg timer much.  That's the other thing that prompted the comparison, since you and others had said it didn't get used much in your games.  Here are the difference, in my opinion, in the timer and the X-card:

1. It's not linked to a specific behavior or possible problem.  I suppose that could make it a bigger potential issue with a jerk player, not less, as there is more room to abuse it on those grounds.  That doesn't particularly bother me, because tossing the jerks sooner rather than later is the end result.  Maybe in a game with strangers, that's a relative negative for the timer, positive for the card.  I don't know.

2. In practice, though it doesn't get used much overall, it gets used in spurts.  That is, we only started using it because there were particular issues that kept occurring, but trying to stop the game to fix them was difficult, because it would interrupt the flow of the scenes.  We wanted a way to signal, more or less, "I don't have a problem with what you are doing, but it has run on too long, and I'm ready to do something else."   It's not a veto, hard, soft, or otherwise, or in anyway trying to draw firm line.  Once it gets flipped a couple of times over a particular issue, we don't tend to need it again, because there is something psychological about the 3 minutes of sand running through the timer that flips a switch in peoples' heads.  After that, one person merely glancing at the timer can be enough to get the whole table to unconsciously get on with the scene.  

3. The flip side of the veto issue, the timer has two different ways to acknowledge.  Finish the scene or explain why you need more time to the rest of the group.  Because of the options, the timer itself exerts no control over the scene at all.  Compared to the X-card, I'd still have objections on the "gaming isn't therapy" grounds to using one, but it would be immensely improved as a communication tool with even one more state.  Something like, "touch the X-card to indicate that you are uncomfortable with what is happening but not ready to bail yet and/or would like it to end soon or at least back off a little," versus "pick up the X-card to say that this suddenly went way over the line, and you need it to stop right now."  Only the latter is a hard veto and off limits to discussion.

Steven Mitchell

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« Reply #127 on: October 18, 2018, 02:46:19 PM »
Also, with the timer this might be particular in our group, and not inherent in the timer itself:  We have never once used the timer for an issue we had not already discussed as a group as a particular thing we collectively wanted to handle.  To mix it with Jeff's point about boundaries of taste, the equivalent in an X-card would be if the group had already set expectations on where those boundaries where, and picking up the X-card was merely a signal that someone thought the boundaries had been crossed.  There is, of course, a great deal of difference between "can't talk about why I picked up the card," versus, "everyone knows exactly why I picked up the card because we talked about it already."

Alderaan Crumbs

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« Reply #128 on: October 18, 2018, 02:50:02 PM »
Quote from: sureshot;1060874
I see your either a fan of the X-men, Malcoln X or porn. Either way your a good egg in my book.


It's just an X-card. Cuz you hurt muh feels. Like, way bad. I just stopped crying enough to respond.

Back to our regularly scheduled ballyhoo...

I’m not usually one for “Fucked-up Storytime in RPG Land”, but in this case I’ll make an exception. So, many years ago...about 2004/5...I’m playing D&D with a group of 4 guys (myself included) and 1 girl. All adults over 20. Now, the girl’s character is a half-demon succubus whose demon father had raped her mortal mother, creating her. OK, dark but nothing too out-there. A very “Blade-esque” vibe. Then the explanation of how demon-daddy and his court gang-raped her. Couple this with her mannerisms (flirty demeanor, accentuating cleavage, etc.) and it’s overall getting uncomfortable. She just gave if this “Uh, oh...” vibe. I smoked at the time, am doing so and she walks out to smoke, too. At some point in the light conversation she explains she was raped and how this is a way to deal with it. There were hints at an almost fetish for it, in her real-world sexuality.

If X-cards had been a thing I would’ve been flinging them like a pant-less Gambit being chased by the Viagra-addled spawn of Liberace and Juggernaut. Instead what I did was mention that there are probably better ways to deal with things.

That was my last game with her in the group. So yeah, shit gets weird and from weird places.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 03:04:44 PM by Alderaan Crumbs »
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jeff37923

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« Reply #129 on: October 18, 2018, 02:52:43 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1060876
I think people have different ideas about what is good taste. Notably, it seems like Lurtch thinks that rape should never come up at all - whereas you think that it's OK if it comes up but it is faded to black rather than described.

This is one of those reading comprehension moments of yours. Lurtch pointed out that he was talking about rape in actual play and I absolutely agree with him.



Quote from: jhkim;1060876
When you say "fun will likely be spoiled"...  Would it matter if it was said that in the last dozen games, the X-card was never used? My impression from the games I played in that used the X-card is that it is considered like having a fire extinguisher - very unlikely to be used, but there just in case.

You only need a fire extinguisher to put out a fire. If you do not have oxygen, heat, or fuel then there will be no fire. If you are in a game that happens within the common bounds of good taste, then you will have no need for an emotional support tool like an X-card.

If people do not require an X-card to play Risk, Diplomacy, Monopoly, or Chess then why do they need them for table top role-playing games?
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Alderaan Crumbs

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« Reply #130 on: October 18, 2018, 03:10:00 PM »
Just because gaming can be therapeutic doesn't mean it should be therapy.
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robiswrong

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« Reply #131 on: October 18, 2018, 03:42:02 PM »
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1060848
I don't think removing dog death was the problem it was the assertion that her feelings trumped the table's fun. Provided the table's fun isn't something awful, she might not need to play in that game. But that's the real issue, isn't it? What's defined as awful is subjective and nowadays, far too wide. Which leads to issues of what's acceptable socially and so on. It becomes this mental and emotional mine field that can be so stressful you might as well not play.

Her feelings don't trump the table's fun.

Her feelings make playing in a game including dog death not tenable.  X-Card or not doesn't change that.  The table that can either accommodate that, or not.  If they don't want to accommodate it, then she shouldn't play at that table.  If they want her to keep playing, they have to accommodate it.  It's like any other thing in a game - if you have a person that does/doesn't want something in a game, and others with the opposite view, you either compromise or don't game together.

Beyond that, it's just a matter of being judgemental about her reaction.  And I usually try not to do that, because I have no idea what that person has been through.  Maybe they put down their dog that day.  Maybe they watched someone kill their dog as a kid.  I don't know.  But their reaction is their reaction, and isn't going to change.

Now, if a person is constantly breaking down at every little thing?  Yeah, then "okay, go deal with your issues, this is not making the game fun for anyone" is the response.  But for that singular issue?  I've never had a game where dogs dying was integral to the table's fun.

GeekEclectic

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« Reply #132 on: October 18, 2018, 04:11:36 PM »
Quote from: sureshot;1060815
This is pretty much why I really do not like the concept of a X-Card. No real indication of what is wrong. While wasting time at the game table trying to figure what is wrong. With the added bonus of not being allowed to ask what is wrong. Some here are wondering why we don't like them. I wonder why.

Holy crap, I didn't realize they were that extreme. That's like institutionalizing bad communication right there.

Still, that being said, I wouldn't refuse to play at a con game where such a thing is present. That's my time to try new games and play styles with new people, and it's going to take a whole heck of a lot more than that for me to give up on a session. It's not something I'd tolerate in a regular game, though. If you're so childish that you can't even ask to speak to the GM privately about your concerns(no need to bring things up in front of everyone), or you're so "triggered" that the mere mention of something can make you shut down, then you're not ready for this level of social interaction.

Plus there's a big difference between treating sensitive topics with respect(not joking about them, not going into too much detail, fading to black, etc.) and avoiding such things altogether. The former, awesome. The latter, grow up. (Plus total avoidance of sensitive topics is actually against APA advice for people with actual PTSD, which the SJWs always seem to forget to mention when calling for this sort of thing. Being sensitive doesn't require everyone to walk on eggshells.)
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nDervish

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« Reply #133 on: October 19, 2018, 06:30:53 AM »
Quote from: Motorskills;1060855
I'd also dispute that the X-card doesn't mean that you can't talk like adults. In fact I would argue the reverse. "I am starting to have an issue, I'd like you to listen to me". I think it immediately focuses the conversation, gives a start point for an adult conversation, distinguishes it from a regular whine. Now the GM can decide that the player should suck it up or leave, the player may make that decision for himself.


Have you actually read the canonical X-card document by John Stavropoulos, the creator of the X-card?  The initial summary, on page 2 (the first non-cover page), states:
Quote

To use, at the start of your game, simply say:

"I'd like your help. Your help to make this game fun for everyone. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable in any way… [ draw X on an index card ] …just lift this card up, or simply tap it          [ place card at the center of the table ]. You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why. When we lift or tap this card, we simply edit out anything X-Carded. And if there is ever an issue, anyone can call for a break and we can talk privately. I know it sounds funny but it will help us play amazing games together and usually I'm the one who uses the X card to protect myself from all of you! Please help make this game fun for everyone. Thank you!"


And page 11:
Quote

What's second most important about the X-Card?

When you X-Card something, no explanation is needed.


And page 15:
Quote

What if you don't know what was X-Carded?

Call for a break and have the person running the game or a close friend speak privately with the person who used the X-Card. In general, we tell people that no explanations are needed, but if they want to share, they are welcome to. It's their choice.


Now, yes, I did misremember slightly, in that discussing the reason why the X-card was invoked isn't actually prohibited, but the person is explicitly at liberty to tap it and say "stop the game, I have a problem, but I'm not going to tell you what the problem is".

And perhaps my owl-phobe wasn't so far out there after all.  The list of things the author has seen X-carded on page 12 includes smoking and in-flight air turbulence.  By the creator's own document, it is not just used for egregiously offensive topics such as rape or graphic gore.

nDervish

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« Reply #134 on: October 19, 2018, 06:54:29 AM »
Quote from: Lurtch;1060867
Have any of you, in your games, not theoretically, but in actual play, ever had rape play a part in the game?


Yes, twice, when I was in college, 1990-91 timeframe.

The first was more implied than in play.  Some of the players in a Shadowrun game thought it would by funny if one of the female PCs got pregnant, so they summoned an air elemental and bound it to the task of making that happen.  They didn't specify how, so the character ended up with a side job as a mind-controlled cyber-prostitute.

The second was playing WFRP and a female PC (played by a female player) went down to the city docks in the middle of the night and kept pushing her luck with the sailors until the scene faded to black.  The player seemed happy enough with this outcome that I believe it was intentional, although, with how she played her characters in later games, it's likely that she may have been looking for sex in general, not rape specifically.