Quote from: jhkim;1060543If someone really really is bothered by just the idea of an X-card and it would drive you up the wall for it to be used, then sure, rant against it.  But rant against what it's actually like in play.

What is this preposterous notion that I should base my opinions on experience rather than preconception and prejudice?

I can see that it's a tool for more sensitive players to express discomfort without having to explain themselves, our cultures are moving on and attitudes are evolving. If we are to keep the younger generations (and their cash) coming in to the hobby then having an x-card is a small price to pay. Chances are I'll never have the need to use it personally, thick skinned, middle-aged, robust in mind etc. but other people might and it might keep a situation minor rather than having it blow up.

Now you know why many on this site have issues with your post Motorskills. If you think what I posted is a rant. I too can be disingenuous  and claim anyone and everyone who disagrees with what I post " ranting ".

If you want to treat grown-ups as children go right ahead. Your behaviour is the exception not the norm. X-cards are just a excuse for people to not act like responsible adults.   If you have a issue with something at the table tell me.

Do you know how immersion breaking it is to have someone in the middle of a exciting combat or npc interaction to hold a card and stop everything. It's annoying, childish and kills both the mood and momentum imo. For what because joe or jane adult child is offended by the hooting if a  owl.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060665I try to be polite, there's a few people here that enjoy getting a rise out of me, and occasionally I let rip in return, prefer not to do that, hence I let the signature speak for me.

I honestly don't even remember who J Wright is, I'm guessing he was (is?) a poster here. The virtue signalling thing does resonate with me though, those that accuse (the likes of) ConTessa of being the bad guys...well they are on the wrong side, plain and simple. But is SpinachCat actually a sociopath because he rants and raves about this stuff?
I don't think I would go that far, I certainly would try to avoid making that extreme a judgment before having a face to face.


Maybe it's time to update my sig, we'll see.



P.S. I am far from coordinated (that's where the moniker originated). I am a fantastic driver. My wife disagrees.

I hear ya'. I've poked at people (and have been poked back by them), including you, more than I probably should at times. I don't agree with a lot of what you post but honestly, I do appreciate that you and I and others can come here and...as obnoxious as it can end up being...bloody each other's virtual noses, then shake hands after.

I still think X-cards are dumb, though.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060666I don't know if it is a rant per se, but I'd argue it's close. Sureshot's unhappiness is totally out of proportion to the impact it has on his gaming or his everyday.

I may be incorrect but if sureshot is anywhere close to my feelings on the topic, it's not so much the impact on his gaming table, but in real life. I'm hoping you can see how insane things have gotten in the Gordian Knot of current Leftist politics and when one wants to escape to their hobby, it's infuriating to keep seeing how everything in that hobby now apparently sucks, and how you....a straight, white, inherently-rapey/racist/ableist/etc. cis-male demon-thing...are ruining not only the hobby you're trying to escape to, but the lives of people you don't know and who you would almost assuredly love to share said hobby with.

In short (too late), as a long-maligned and ostracized group who have been largely desperate for validation, it's disheartening to be told you're not included others.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060666I don't know if it is a rant per se, but I'd argue it's close. Sureshot's unhappiness is totally out of proportion to the impact it has on his gaming or his everyday.

I may be incorrect but if sureshot is anywhere close to my feelings on the topic, it's not so much the impact on his gaming table, but in real life. I'm hoping you can see how insane things have gotten in the Gordian Knot of current Leftist politics and when one wants to escape to their hobby, it's infuriating to keep seeing how everything in that hobby now apparently sucks, and how you....a straight, white, inherently-rapey/racist/ableist/etc. cis-male demon-thing...are ruining not only the hobby you're trying to escape to, but the lives of people you don't know and who you would almost assuredly love to share said hobby with.

In short (too late), as a long-maligned and ostracized group who have been largely desperate for validation, it's disheartening to be told you're not included others.

Quote from: sureshot;1060674Now you know why many on this site have issues with your post Motorskills. If you think what I posted is a rant. I too can be disingenuous  and claim anyone and everyone who disagrees with what I post " ranting ".

If you want to treat grown-ups as children go right ahead. Your behaviour is the exception not the norm. X-cards are just a excuse for people to not act like responsible adults.   If you have a issue with something at the table tell me.

Do you know how immersion breaking it is to have someone in the middle of a exciting combat or npc interaction to hold a card and stop everything. It's annoying, childish and kills both the mood and momentum imo. For what because joe or jane adult child is offended by the hooting if a  owl.

jhkim and I have given eighteen examples of experience with X-card between us, confirming that any impact that the X-card has is invisible and positive. You've likely never even seen the X-card, but somehow it is worth getting your knickers in a twist about it. Come on, man.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1060679I hear ya'. I've poked at people (and have been poked back by them), including you, more than I probably should at times. I don't agree with a lot of what you post but honestly, I do appreciate that you and I and others can come here and...as obnoxious as it can end up being...bloody each other's virtual noses, then shake hands after.

I still think X-cards are dumb, though.



I may be incorrect but if sureshot is anywhere close to my feelings on the topic, it's not so much the impact on his gaming table, but in real life. I'm hoping you can see how insane things have gotten in the Gordian Knot of current Leftist politics and when one wants to escape to their hobby, it's infuriating to keep seeing how everything in that hobby now apparently sucks, and how you....a straight, white, inherently-rapey/racist/ableist/etc. cis-male demon-thing...are ruining not only the hobby you're trying to escape to, but the lives of people you don't know and who you would almost assuredly love to share said hobby with.

In short (too late), as a long-maligned and ostracized group who have been largely desperate for validation, it's disheartening to be told you're not included others.

Again, for the record, I am the archetypal evil demographic, and I have never felt unwelcome or unentertained at an "X-Table" (nor for that matter at my sole experience at a "ConTessa Table"). And my go-to game is Delta Green, so I'm not some shrinking RPG violet either.

At a Sound of Water game I sat in on, that had an X-Card, it was a super-tense back-and forth. It absolutely was a mature game for highly-experienced gamers. We never came close to needing the card.

At another table that had an X-card, we did some Fate Accelerated thing. The GM had a theme in mind - re-skinned Mormon Missionaries meets Star Trek basically - but wanted to be sure that everyone at the table would be okay with religious themes, especially in a game that was significantly free-formed as we went along.
We didn't need the X-card, but the GM being open to tweaking stuff was good IMO, religious stuff can cause issues, obviously it can.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060557But where I disagree with you is your reticence to even sit down at the table. At Gen Con at least, the X-card seems to be a room/organizer thing, or a publisher thing. It doesn't really say anything about the GM, the game / mechanics, or the other players. The only person you would be hurting is yourself.

I'm running some risk of depriving myself of a fun experience by also avoiding several possibilities that would be a not so fun experience--and also being polite by not putting myself into a position of taking a slot that someone else might enjoy more and/or might lead me to walk in the middle of the game.  If it's a room/organizer or publisher thing, we merely moved up another level.  Now instead of not sitting for the game, I don't want to go to the convention at all.  I don't particularly want to go to Gen Con for many reasons.  A habit of using X-cards would be a relatively tiny weight on that scale.  (And frankly, in this case, any gaming-related or political issues I have would be completely dwarfed by being in that much of a crowd for that long.)  If I plaid for a game, showed up, and it was rampant--then that's my bad for not doing my research better.  Money down the drain, I guess.

BTW, I'd feel exactly the same way if someone wanted an O-card for if people got annoyed with OOC character or a C-card if people didn't like the characterization/voice used by the players or a B-card if the balance was all off, of any other thing that makes a game potentially go off the rails.  The only thing special about the X-card is the tenuous connection to serious counseling of psychological trauma.  If that's present, then we aren't just talking about a game anymore.  

Now, in a longer-term group--say in a private home, we are talking a different animal.  If I went to a game like that by invitation, and the GM pulled out the X-card, I'd want to know why he thought it was needed, how often it had been used, if ever, and why.  Depending upon the answers, I might or might not walk.  But it is certainly a big enough signal to get me to ask the questions.  A 4-hour con game, I'd be monopolizing time that could be better spent elsewhere.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1060692I'm running some risk of depriving myself of a fun experience by also avoiding several possibilities that would be a not so fun experience--and also being polite by not putting myself into a position of taking a slot that someone else might enjoy more and/or might lead me to walk in the middle of the game.  If it's a room/organizer or publisher thing, we merely moved up another level.  Now instead of not sitting for the game, I don't want to go to the convention at all.  I don't particularly want to go to Gen Con for many reasons.  A habit of using X-cards would be a relatively tiny weight on that scale.  (And frankly, in this case, any gaming-related or political issues I have would be completely dwarfed by being in that much of a crowd for that long.)  If I plaid for a game, showed up, and it was rampant--then that's my bad for not doing my research better.  Money down the drain, I guess.

BTW, I'd feel exactly the same way if someone wanted an O-card for if people got annoyed with OOC character or a C-card if people didn't like the characterization/voice used by the players or a B-card if the balance was all off, of any other thing that makes a game potentially go off the rails.  The only thing special about the X-card is the tenuous connection to serious counseling of psychological trauma.  If that's present, then we aren't just talking about a game anymore.  

Now, in a longer-term group--say in a private home, we are talking a different animal.  If I went to a game like that by invitation, and the GM pulled out the X-card, I'd want to know why he thought it was needed, how often it had been used, if ever, and why.  Depending upon the answers, I might or might not walk.  But it is certainly a big enough signal to get me to ask the questions.  A 4-hour con game, I'd be monopolizing time that could be better spent elsewhere.

I'm really only referencing conventions, I don't think it applies at home games (or rather I think stronger communication protocols are required there). Store games are a different beast, and I would have to give that some more thought.
 
But for conventions at least, you are being offered eighteen examples suggesting that your concerns are unfounded, or rather, there is no lesser or greater risk of a bad gaming experience at an "X-Table" than anywhere else. I've had plenty of sucky experiences at non-X tables....

I game to have fun. The presence and potential use of an X-card would limit that fun.

Damn, I guess that means I'm just not woke enough.

If someone has issues with a type of content, you would either respect that or ask them to leave the game, right?

The X-Card does nothing but formalize the process.

The problem wouldn't be the X-Card itself, it would be weaponized use of the X-Card to control a game beyond tolerable limits.  Which is dealt with the same way you would if the X-Card wasn't there:  "Yeah, I don't think this game is for you, I think you should find something you'd be happier playing."

There's a bit of "finality" and unilateral power implied in how the process is described, but I'd see it less as "use of X-Card is absolute and final" and more like "use of X-Card means we're not doing it for now, but will probably discuss what the game is and is not later."  I mean, that's how we usually deal with rules disputes, right?  "Accept this ruling for now, and we'll discuss it later."  I can see how the description of it makes it sound like handing over an inappropriate amount of unilateral power, but I certainly wouldn't use it that way, and I wouldn't tolerate somebody abusing it.

If someone is abusing the X-Card to "control" the game, they'd probably try it with or without the X-Card, so I'd deal with them the same way.  I prefer to have games that work with reasonable people, and mechanisms for reasonable people, and kick out unreasonable people.

To be clear, I'm not an X-Card "fan".  But neither do I see it as some kind of game-destroying thing.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060688Again, for the record, I am the archetypal evil demographic, and I have never felt unwelcome or unentertained at an "X-Table" (nor for that matter at my sole experience at a "ConTessa Table"). And my go-to game is Delta Green, so I'm not some shrinking RPG violet either.

At a Sound of Water game I sat in on, that had an X-Card, it was a super-tense back-and forth. It absolutely was a mature game for highly-experienced gamers. We never came close to needing the card.

At another table that had an X-card, we did some Fate Accelerated thing. The GM had a theme in mind - re-skinned Mormon Missionaries meets Star Trek basically - but wanted to be sure that everyone at the table would be okay with religious themes, especially in a game that was significantly free-formed as we went along.
We didn't need the X-card, but the GM being open to tweaking stuff was good IMO, religious stuff can cause issues, obviously it can.

I probably wouldn't care, either. However, if someone started being a dick, X-card or not, my outside voice might be used inside (who games outside? There are bugs).

Quote from: robiswrong;1060698If someone has issues with a type of content, you would either respect that or ask them to leave the game, right?

The X-Card does nothing but formalize the process.

The problem wouldn't be the X-Card itself, it would be weaponized use of the X-Card to control a game beyond tolerable limits.  Which is dealt with the same way you would if the X-Card wasn't there:  "Yeah, I don't think this game is for you, I think you should find something you'd be happier playing."

There's a bit of "finality" and unilateral power implied in how the process is described, but I'd see it less as "use of X-Card is absolute and final" and more like "use of X-Card means we're not doing it for now, but will probably discuss what the game is and is not later."  I mean, that's how we usually deal with rules disputes, right?  "Accept this ruling for now, and we'll discuss it later."  I can see how the description of it makes it sound like handing over an inappropriate amount of unilateral power, but I certainly wouldn't use it that way, and I wouldn't tolerate somebody abusing it.

If someone is abusing the X-Card to "control" the game, they'd probably try it with or without the X-Card, so I'd deal with them the same way.  I prefer to have games that work with reasonable people, and mechanisms for reasonable people, and kick out unreasonable people.

To be clear, I'm not an X-Card "fan".  But neither do I see it as some kind of game-destroying thing.

Well-summarised.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060695I'm really only referencing conventions, I don't think it applies at home games (or rather I think stronger communication protocols are required there). Store games are a different beast, and I would have to give that some more thought.
 
But for conventions at least, you are being offered eighteen examples suggesting that your concerns are unfounded, or rather, there is no lesser or greater risk of a bad gaming experience at an "X-Table" than anywhere else. I've had plenty of sucky experiences at non-X tables....

Well, to be fair, what is a good gaming experience to one person might be a bad gaming experience to another. I'm not claiming that my experience of convention games using the X-card is definitive for everyone, but some data is better than no data.

I do get the impression that using the X-card correlates to a more liberal politics of the GM or the organizer. So if someone is really bothered by that just in principle, for example, that could be a factor. However, I haven't noticed that there is any noticeable correlation of game content. i.e. There are non-X-card games that are very socialist or otherwise liberal, and there are X-card games that are straight-up Cthulhoid horror.

Quote from: robiswrong;1060698To be clear, I'm not an X-Card "fan".  But neither do I see it as some kind of game-destroying thing.

No not destroying.  It's nothing but a signal after all.  The GM thinks the game will about something rough, thinks that other players might have reservations about it, or is being cautious.  The GM might be correct or incorrect in any of those assessments.

The game (with or without an X-card) might be explicitly about horror or sports or modern commando missions or any number of other things that don't particularly appeal to me.  A game might be strictly played in first person voice or strictly theatrical improvisational rules.  Also doesn't appeal.  

It's certainly possible that I might have fun in any of those games, with a good group, but the chances are much lower than some other options.  If any of those things are signaled, I'm out.  The X-card is another such signal.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060685jhkim and I have given eighteen examples of experience with X-card between us, confirming that any impact that the X-card has is invisible and positive. You've likely never even seen the X-card, but somehow it is worth getting your knickers in a twist about it. Come on, man.

I don't need or want to play with a X-Card because I'm mature and responsible enough to talk with the DM/GM usually at the end of the session. Not during the game where it ruins it for everyone else. Now if the DM/GM is a immature dick throwing rape scenes and descriptions of brutal torture in graphic detail. I respectfully tell the DM/GM it's not something I'm comfortable with. If the person running the table refuses. I get up and leave. That's how well adjusted people act in normal society. I will concede that the X-card has a use and it's place you will never get me to admit to using them or liking them Food for thought maybe just maybe you might be wrong on the subject your talking about.