Quote from: Xuc Xac;1060537I've never used the x-card thing, but I don't see the big deal. Saying "hey, knock that out" interrupts the flow of the game and breaks the mood. A nice non-verbal signal that lets you wave the DM away from something that grosses you out keeps things moving smoothly for everyone.

Also, just because one player taps out, that doesn't mean they're a special snowflake. It just means they tapped out first. Maybe all your players think you're a creep who needs to back off the lovingly detailed description of cannibal clown rape, but they didn't all use the x-card simultaneously so you just see the first one.

OK, so let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that the X-card is a good idea and has all the benefits you suggest.

There's still the problem that, in your example scenario, there's no way for the GM to know whether, when a player taps the X-card, the player actually means "the cannibal rapists are all well and good, but I really can't deal with clowns", or even "I'm loving the cannibal clown rape, but your incidental descriptions just mentioned the sound of an owl hooting from the trees, and owls creep me the fuck out".  There's no way to know what it is that's upsetting the person who raises the X-card without talking to them about what they're reacting badly to, and X-card rules tend to explicitly prohibit any such discussion.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1060579So it's virtue signalling bullshit. How surprising.

Well I quoted what one person thinks of that in my sig. But rather than just sling stuff, I'll throw something positive out there as well.

One of the games I signed up 'blindly' for at this Gen Con turned out to be run by the ConTessa crowd. It was in the open floor of the Lucas Oil stadium, you can see some photos in the link (though those are not from 2018)

They had at least eight tables., could have been many more. I don't recall seeing an X-card at my table, but maybe it was just buried under character sheets and the table map. The organizers and several of the GMs were identifiably dressed up (lots of badges etc), but the players were more of a mix. Can I say for a fact that ConTessa's welcoming approach brought in players that might otherwise not have attended? No, I can't.

But clearly ConTessa thinks that it does. Here's a snippet from Stacy Dellorfano, the founder of ConTessa. (full piece here). AFAIK Stacy is pretty respected in the community for her efforts, I recall seeing posts to that effect here on the RPGsite, not exactly the most inclusive place in our hobby.

QuoteThe people who come to our events are some of the best in the community. My favorite part about running ConTessa events at conventions is talking to all the people who participate and run our events. It's very special to me when people come and sit down next to me, and tell me their story as a gamer. They're all unique, precious, and perfect stories, and they are the fuel that keeps me going even though there are times when being the founder of an organization like ConTessa feels like being target practice for trolls.

Because of ConTessa, I walk away from every convention with a huge smile on my face, a deep sense of love, satisfaction, hope for the future, and a whole bag of stories to share with others. Those who know me know that I'm an incredibly emotional person. At every convention ConTessa has represented at, I've had to take some time alone to cry with joy over everything that I see and hear.

...

You may think that just running a game at one of our events isn't enough to turn the tide, but I promise you, it is. Every person who's run a ConTessa event has touched - and changed - many lives. I can't tell you how many people have told me they've been empowered to create because they saw someone like them GMing at one of our events - there are too many to count. All you have to do is show up and run a game, and lives change, become enriched, become better. Your vulnerability, your power, your willingness to try something new and break out of the box you've been stuffed in inspires others in ways that change their lives forever. Never forget that.  

Especially now.

I'm not the (nominal) target audience for ConTessa, being a straight white male. But I had a great time, friendly GM and players, with a fun adventure - though the game world needed maybe too much background exposition for a one-shot, but the GM wrangled it successfully.

To swing full circle - I think the X-card works the same way. It doesn't need to be overtly / actively used to be effective.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060557I think it's there as a message that the DM is available and willing to take feedback, and to remind everyone that we are all there to have fun.  

 At Gen Con at least, the X-card seems to be a room/organizer thing, or a publisher thing. It doesn't really say anything about the GM, the game / mechanics, or the other players.

So what is an X-card? A message that the DM is available and willing to take feedback or it doesn't really say anything about the DM, the game/mechanics, or the other players? You are talking out of your ass here.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060594I'm not the (nominal) target audience for ConTessa, being a straight white male.

Ah yes, ConTessa - the group which supports marginalized gamers by marginalizing the largest demographic of gamers.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1060544Who is ranting?  I think the X-card makes an excellent signal.  As soon as it appears on the table, I'm out.  Either the game is going to be about something potentially nasty (and thus not to my taste), or the GM thinks that some of the players are potentially snowflakes (also not too my tastes in a different way) or the GM is incorrect or pandering or perhaps merely being cautious.  In the latter cases, I'm possibly abandoning an alright game, but life is too short.  Also, there is a really good chance that I'm not a good fit for that table, even if the game is OK.  So it is the polite thing to do to get out early.

I don't really get the X-Card but neither do I understand this. Personally I find X Cards silly (and I can't imagine any of my players taking them seriously). I wouldn't allow that to stop me from trying out a game at an event. If the game itself doesn't look like fun, sure I wouldn't play. But if the game looked interesting I could still play even if I personally don't really agree with the whole X Card thing (and I could respect the table's desire to have X Cards and not make a fuss about it). I don't need all my tastes and preferences 100% catered to to have a good time at a game table. And there is room for different approaches. If people want X cards, it isn't any skin off my back. In my own group I won't use them (even if people come in asking for rather). Because that is the standard at our table. But if I am a guest at another persons table I can adjust to how they do things. At the very least it gives me a clearer understanding of what the X Card actually is.

Quote from: nDervish;1060590There's still the problem that, in your example scenario, there's no way for the GM to know whether, when a player taps the X-card, the player actually means "the cannibal rapists are all well and good, but I really can't deal with clowns", or even "I'm loving the cannibal clown rape, but your incidental descriptions just mentioned the sound of an owl hooting from the trees, and owls creep me the fuck out".  There's no way to know what it is that's upsetting the person who raises the X-card without talking to them about what they're reacting badly to, and X-card rules tend to explicitly prohibit any such discussion.

I'm not opposed to the concept of the X-Card it's what you said exactly here to why I dislike using them and the concept of them. It's not enough I need to spend time creating a campaign. I also need to be amateur psychologist as well at the game table. No not unless I'm payed to do so. What is it with people who insist on acting like children in adult bodies. If one has a issue with the DM/GM tell them. I will concede if the player was raped or beaten as a child it will be hard to do and that should be said in private. If one hates organized religion (why are you even playing D&D which main setting is full of religions) tell the DM and players. I could understand if I stupidly ran a game with rape elements the players rightfully call me out on it. I'm not sure if I would run let alone want a player who is creeped out by the hooting of owls at the game table. X-Cards is just another way for adults to act like children and shrug off the responsability of acting like one.

Gamers like Motorskills just want to keep holding the hands of such people until their 90+ years old. I get it sometimes certain topics can be uncomfortable to talk about. Don't expect everyone and anyone around you to be amateur psychologists coupled with mind reading ability.

As for Contessa I'm glad it exists yet most tables and conventions never turned away women and gay people. LBGT is a newer phenomenon and they would usually not be turned away either. Contessa is just another fancy term for an organized safe space.  


As a aside WHY do people who order stuff refuse to include apartment numbers when they place the original order. It's common fucking sense people.

X-cards didn't exist in the community at large until recently...

The uncomfortable situations requiring X-cards didn't exist in the community at large until recently...

The people who require nigh-constant protection from uncomfortable situations didn't exist in the community at large until recently...

In the Ven Diagram of all of these bizarre things, "SJW" sits smack in the middle.

Quote from: sureshot;1060614I'm not opposed to the concept of the X-Card it's what you said exactly here to why I dislike using them and the concept of them. It's not enough I need to spend time creating a campaign. I also need to be amateur psychologist as well at the game table. No not unless I'm payed to do so. What is it with people who insist on acting like children in adult bodies. If one has a issue with the DM/GM tell them. I will concede if the player was raped or beaten as a child it will be hard to do and that should be said in private. If one hates organized religion (why are you even playing D&D which main setting is full of religions) tell the DM and players. I could understand if I stupidly ran a game with rape elements the players rightfully call me out on it. I'm not sure if I would run let alone want a player who is creeped out by the hooting of owls at the game table. X-Cards is just another way for adults to act like children and shrug off the responsability of acting like one.

Gamers like Motorskills just want to keep holding the hands of such people until their 90+ years old. I get it sometimes certain topics can be uncomfortable to talk about. Don't expect everyone and anyone around you to be amateur psychologists coupled with mind reading ability.

As for Contessa I'm glad it exists yet most tables and conventions never turned away women and gay people. LBGT is a newer phenomenon and they would usually not be turned away either. Contessa is just another fancy term for an organized safe space.  


As a aside WHY do people who order stuff refuse to include apartment numbers when they place the original order. It's common fucking sense people.

Two bits I'd like to expand upon:

1) Yes, we're aren't mind-reading psychiatrists required to anticipate the needs of adults playing pretend. Spot on there, sir.

2) ConTessa exists because it scores points from people with whom victimhood is a virtue. What's between your legs (and who you let touch it) shouldn't exist in public and girls have always been welcome, they just wanted to be included with caveats. We see this repeatedly in current feminism.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060557I've had plenty of sub-par table experiences (at conventions) over the decades. These have mostly been boredom (due to an unprepared DM or a lame adventure), and occasionally a terrible DM (combination of inexperience and poor preparation). Once or twice it's been an obnoxious player (typically some kind of alpha that shouts other players down, challenges the DM all the way along, that kind of thing).
I don't think an X-card would have helped in any of those situations.

But I've got to say I'm with @jhkim here. I've been on maybe half-a-dozen tables (all but one at Gen Con) where an X-card has been on display. I don't think it guarantees anything, I don't think it restricts anything.

I've never once seen it used.

But nevertheless I do think it has value. I think it's there as a message that the DM is available and willing to take feedback, and to remind everyone that we are all there to have fun.
Sure I think players have some responsibility to not sign up for games that they might have a bad reaction to, but honestly, at Gen Con especially, it's really hard to tell beyond identifying the general genre, the paragraph descriptions can't really do the session justice.
Beyond that, I love signing up blind for stuff, trying out games and themes I have little knowledge about. I've come across some amazing gems over the years.

I think the above really only applies to conventions or pick-up store games. One of my friends (an excellent CoC Keeper) hosted a home game for a couple of new people. It ended terribly, the new players were shocked by the horror content, which was, my friend admits, maybe too graphic for a pick-up game.
Would an X-card have saved that situation? Impossible to know. But I think my friend would have liked the opportunity to be advised earlier than his guests / players were bouncing off the content much harder than he had appreciated.

But where I disagree with you is your reticence to even sit down at the table. At Gen Con at least, the X-card seems to be a room/organizer thing, or a publisher thing. It doesn't really say anything about the GM, the game / mechanics, or the other players. The only person you would be hurting is yourself.

What would an X-card have done other than stop the game? What aspect triggered the X-card? You're so blinded by your ideology you can't see the problems it causes. What about voice-only games?

The X-card is nothing more than an infantile replacement for mature communication.

Quote from: sureshot;1060614Gamers like Motorskills just want to keep holding the hands of such people until their 90+ years old. I get it sometimes certain topics can be uncomfortable to talk about. Don't expect everyone and anyone around you to be amateur psychologists coupled with mind reading ability.

As for Contessa I'm glad it exists yet most tables and conventions never turned away women and gay people. LBGT is a newer phenomenon and they would usually not be turned away either. Contessa is just another fancy term for an organized safe space.  

I'm very happy to "hand-hold", I've been doing it for more than thirty years, bringing people into (and back into) the hobby. TSR actually sponsored D&D in UK schools back in the day, I was one of the participating GMs. The look of wondrous delight on the kids' faces still resonates with me today.

The main obstacle was convincing the nervous parents. While we never had the terminology, essentially we had to explain that the gaming table was a "safe space" for their kids. It wasn't a big deal then, the parents got it straight away; they either observed from a distance, or happily wandered off to do their own things.
And it still isn't a big deal today.

QuoteAs a aside WHY do people who order stuff refuse to include apartment numbers when they place the original order. It's common fucking sense people.

I feel ya.

It's one thing to hold a person hand. I draw the line at doing it 24/7/365 days a year. After a certain point a adult needs to act like one. Not be a child in a adult body.

Players are responsible for telling the DM what bothers them at the table. DMs also need to make the appropriate judgement calls as well. Player is uncomfortable with rape it's gone from the campaign.  Being bothered by a Owl thst hoots they stay in the campaign.   At the very least not without a piece of paper that certifies that the player suffers from a phobia of owls.

Modern SJWs and society in some cases insist on wanting go hold a person hand for far too long. A person decides that they want to tske a major in Lesbian Dance instead of business and think they will get the same pay. It's not going to happen, society owes you nothing and your the douchebag who ignored everyone else advice who told you not to do it.

Motorskills, just because J. Wright said something that echoes nicely in your chamber doesn't mean it isn't a weak defense against your aversion to the phrase "virtue signaling".

I do still kind of like you, though. You're polite. And you're apparently coordinated. Or are a great driver. Or both.

Quote from: Xuc Xac;1060537I've never used the x-card thing, but I don't see the big deal. Saying "hey, knock that out" interrupts the flow of the game and breaks the mood. A nice non-verbal signal that lets you wave the DM away from something that grosses you out keeps things moving smoothly for everyone.

Did you miss the part where I said:

Quote from: robiswrong;1060525But if someone feels that they need it, and can't game without it?  Weird, I guess, but fine.

or are you just agreeing with me?

Quote from: Xuc Xac;1060537Also, just because one player taps out, that doesn't mean they're a special snowflake. It just means they tapped out first. Maybe all your players think you're a creep who needs to back off the lovingly detailed description of cannibal clown rape, but they didn't all use the x-card simultaneously so you just see the first one.

Again, I never said anything of the sort.  I never said that needing an X-Card meant you were "a special snowflake" or wasn't legit, for whatever issues you might be dealing with.

Again, maybe you missed the part where I said:

Quote from: robiswrong;1060525The idea that the people playing would need a hard "rule" saying that they would have to listen to that is, also, foreign to me.

implying that GMs should listen to their players and take out things the players aren't comfortable with, and respect their boundaries?

I mean, the whole point of my post was that while I don't personally see a need for an X-Card, if someone really does, then it doesn't cost anything to put it in (outside of extreme boundary weaponization tactics), so why not just do it?  That really the point was that I don't have to understand something myself to acknowledge that others have some kind of valid need for it.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1060650Motorskills, just because J. Wright said something that echoes nicely in your chamber doesn't mean it isn't a weak defense against your aversion to the phrase "virtue signaling".

I do still kind of like you, though. You're polite. And you're apparently coordinated. Or are a great driver. Or both.

I try to be polite, there's a few people here that enjoy getting a rise out of me, and occasionally I let rip in return, prefer not to do that, hence I let the signature speak for me.

I honestly don't even remember who J Wright is, I'm guessing he was (is?) a poster here. The virtue signalling thing does resonate with me though, those that accuse (the likes of) ConTessa of being the bad guys...well they are on the wrong side, plain and simple. But is SpinachCat actually a sociopath because he rants and raves about this stuff?
I don't think I would go that far, I certainly would try to avoid making that extreme a judgment before having a face to face.


Maybe it's time to update my sig, we'll see.



P.S. I am far from coordinated (that's where the moniker originated). I am a fantastic driver. My wife disagrees.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1060544Who is ranting?

Quote from: sureshot;1060647It's one thing to hold a person hand. I draw the line at doing it 24/7/365 days a year. After a certain point a adult needs to act like one. Not be a child in a adult body.

Players are responsible for telling the DM what bothers them at the table. DMs also need to make the appropriate judgement calls as well. Player is uncomfortable with rape it's gone from the campaign.  Being bothered by a Owl thst hoots they stay in the campaign.   At the very least not without a piece of paper that certifies that the player suffers from a phobia of owls.

Modern SJWs and society in some cases insist on wanting go hold a person hand for far too long. A person decides that they want to tske a major in Lesbian Dance instead of business and think they will get the same pay. It's not going to happen, society owes you nothing and your the douchebag who ignored everyone else advice who told you not to do it.

I don't know if it is a rant per se, but I'd argue it's close. Sureshot's unhappiness is totally out of proportion to the impact it has on his gaming or his everyday.