Expect to be told your not trying hard enough Forge to implement the X-Card. That your mistaken in your opinion on it not working. That your supposed to bend over backwards to accommodate the person that left your game. That you don't like the people who use them.

Hey Forge*,

thanks for the posts, interesting feedback. Can I ask what (or whom) prompted you to use the X-card in the first place?


*that's a bold username to use round here by the way.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1061203Well, when you have to feed on people who's heads are so far up their own asses, you have to adapt.

Yes! I needed a laugh! Awesome!

Quote from: sureshot;1061221Expect to be told your not trying hard enough Forge to implement the X-Card. That your mistaken in your opinion on it not working. That your supposed to bend over backwards to accommodate the person that left your game. That you don't like the people who use them.

I haven't had too bad of luck in real life with how I was perceived over it. Mostly the worst reaction I had was resentment on everyone's part that the game stalled over the X-card complication. But my gaming group is a mature bunch so we'll get over it and get back to what does work for us.

But if folks on the internet tell me that stuff? Eh. I don't care. They can think what they like about me. I've got thick skin and don't care if they think I'm wrong. My gaming group is okay with me and that's what matters.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061223Hey Forge*,

thanks for the posts, interesting feedback. Can I ask what (or whom) prompted you to use the X-card in the first place?


*that's a bold username to use round here by the way.

I had a player that encountered it that asked if our group could try it out. He said he'd been going through some stuff, didn't want to get into the details, wanted an easy way to opt out if something came up that upset him. I'm generally a pretty open person and will try to accommodate players if I can, so I agreed to give the x-card a trial run.

As for my username...I really want to change it. I had picked it before I remembered the connotations it has and have been kicking myself for picking it ever since. I'm sure I'll ask for a name change whenever I think of something else I like better that is a bit more reflective of me as a person, if I end up posting enough on the site to justify asking for a change.

Quote from: Forge;1061209Hi. First time poster here. Nice to meet everyone. I've lurked for a while but decided to take the plunge and post, simply because...I tried GMing a game where I used the X card. I have first-hand experience with it.

I'm honestly not even sure who this card is supposed to benefit. It didn't benefit anyone in my gaming group.

It ruined my game. It ruined it for literally everyone, including the person who used the X card. The reason it did that? Because the X Card mentions when using it: "You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why"

Now, I don't try to steamroll my players or make them participate in content they don't want. I never do that. But....yes. Explanations matter. It does matter why. I want to know if I did something that upset a player. I cannot fix what I am not told directly about.

I always give my players a rundown of any mature or complicated topics that could be controversial before the game starts. If they don't like a topic, I encourage them to tell me before a game session. Or after. Or hell they can throw a fucking pretzel and me and be like "don't include you asshole, it's upsetting" during the game session, I don't care.

I've gotten pretty good at telling players what might be included without spoiling the adventure. Personally, I think players need to be mature enough to have dialogues when uncomfortable. This is a hobby that inherently requires some form of socialization; if a person can't do that when they run into an issue, that screws with me. If they get so traumatized or can't handle something that they must stop the entire game and cannot tell me why, that's....a problem. I can't game that way. It doesn't mean they aren't welcome at my table, but in the case of the X card person in my group, I asked them after the game session if they were willing to explain why they held up the card since it was unclear what topic I'd talked about upset them, and they literally said "I don't have to say."

But another part of the text for X Card instructions was "If you aren't sure what was X-Carded, call for a break and talk with the person in private." I wasn't sure. I tried to follow this direction. But this literally contradicts what the X card user gets told because they are getting told they don't have to say.

Okay, fine. No player has to tell me jack shit. But if they don't tell me, I can't fix the issue, and they might run into the same problem-topic again. I can't just ban every single possible thing I think might have been what they held up the X card for. I explained my dilemma and asked them if they could help me work to a solution, and the person just plain did not want to talk about it.

Which is fine, but I had to ask them to excuse themselves from my group until they felt ready to communicate with me in a healthy way. I need to trust people at my table to be functioning adults. I'm sorry if they've been through something traumatic or whatever. I'm not a dick; I don't want to make 'em deal with shit that makes 'em have like, flashbacks or something. But I can't read fucking minds. If someone is currently so incapacitated that they are invoking the 'I don't have to explain' part of the X card, I have no idea how I am supposed to progress the game from there without screwing it up. So I couldn't progress the game because I didn't know the reason they held up the card (it could have been violence, it could have been a gore description, it could have been something I never even thought about).

I told the group this and asked for solutions. No one could think of what to do from there, because the scene was literally the 'big bad evil guy' reveal, and there was no way to skip it. I couldn't edit it if I didn't know what to edit. And the X-card player did not want to leave the table, claiming that use of the X card meant that it was supposed to help me to help them avoid a trigger.

They eventually excused themselves from the group altogether. They know there's no hard feelings, but they also know they are welcome back whenever they feel comfortable talking to me about whatever content was the problem. My other players are still salty it ruined the session, though they are trying to be nice about it. This happened about a month ago.

At the end of the day, all I want as a GM is for my players to be up front and direct with me. I do not think it is unreasonable to require someone actually talk to me if they are having a problem rather than just X card at me vaguely.

X card: interesting in theory. Rubbish in practice. Actual healthy communication is much better than just shutting shit down. The X card just essentially punishes the whole group at times.

Isn't this what most of us have been saying? Mother fucker, it's annoying to see the same truths bashed against the beachhead of stupidity...

Oh...hi, Forge. Good post and welcome.

Quote from: Forge;1061226I had a player that encountered it that asked if our group could try it out. He said he'd been going through some stuff, didn't want to get into the details, wanted an easy way to opt out if something came up that upset him. I'm generally a pretty open person and will try to accommodate players if I can, so I agreed to give the x-card a trial run.

I guess that fits my initial "civvie" assessment of your OP - sounded like there was some very bad shit in the background, it may not even have been anything specific you or any other player did or said, X-card or no, that gasket was going to blow sooner or later. I give the player credit for coming to you to try to find a path forward, I give you credit for accommodating him in the way you did. Sorry it didn't work out.

QuoteAs for my username...I really want to change it. I had picked it before I remembered the connotations it has and have been kicking myself for picking it ever since. I'm sure I'll ask for a name change whenever I think of something else I like better that is a bit more reflective of me as a person, if I end up posting enough on the site to justify asking for a change.

Eh, I was joshing, change it or not for your preference, not anyone else's.

Welcome Forge!

Quote from: Forge;1061209This is a hobby that inherently requires some form of socialization

For me this is the big thing. It's a hobby mostly played by geeks and nerds who often have below average social skills, but it's a social hobby that requires people to interact with and get along with other people. Encouraging "The Needs of the One (Me) Outway the Needs of the Many (Them)" thinking is absolutely poisonous to the game, and it's a sort of thinking that the X-card encourages. A group needs to have a shared standard, which is why community norms of decency such as film/video age ratings work much better. We can all have a reasonable idea what fits and what doesn't, and that in a 12 or PG-13 type game (which I think is a typical standard for mass market RPGs) there may be spiders, there may be dogs getting killed, there may be the thing that triggers me - and if I have a problem with stuff within community norms then it is appropriate for me to deal with it, not impose myself on the group.

Quote from: jeff37923;1061183You keep clutching those pearls like that you'll break your necklace.

I think it was just an SJW-style Shaming attack from Motorskills, I doubt he genuinely believed it. I saw far more talk about **** on RPGnet than ever happens here.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061229I give the player credit for coming to you to try to find a path forward

As I read Forge's post, "trying to find a path forward" is exactly what the player refused to do, which is what caused the whole situation to go bad for everyone.  How do you work out a way to proceed when literally the only thing you know is "I have a problem, but I'm not going to tell you what it is"?

I fully agree with not needing to know the underlying reasons behind why the X-card was used, but you absolutely have to be able to find out what it was used in response to, otherwise you can't edit out the relevant content.  In other words, the player doesn't need to tell the table "my mother's face was gnawed off by rats", but they do need to say "I don't want rats to appear in the game".

Quote from: Forge;1061226I haven't had too bad of luck in real life with how I was perceived over it. Mostly the worst reaction I had was resentment on everyone's part that the game stalled over the X-card complication. But my gaming group is a mature bunch so we'll get over it and get back to what does work for us.

But if folks on the internet tell me that stuff? Eh. I don't care. They can think what they like about me. I've got thick skin and don't care if they think I'm wrong. My gaming group is okay with me and that's what matters.

My main issue is not so much caring so much as the regressives such as Motorskills being disingenuous. Yet with such people it's all about the narrative. They like X-cards so NOTHING can be wrong with something they like imo. A tool that is supposed to reduce issues at the table instead makes it worse. It's one thing to not tell the table. Yet not even tell the DM.

Imagine

player XYZ raises a X-card

DM: "what wrong? "

XYZ "I rather not say"

DM " I need to know what's bothering you"

XYZ " I don't want to tell you or anyone else hear"

DM "Fair enough how about we talk about it after the game in private so I can fix the issue"

XYZ " No I'd rather not"

Increasingly frustrated DM " So you have a issue which you won't tell me about. Expect me and the others here at the table to guess what it is. You also expect the game to stop completely until we figure it out"

XYZ " Yes! "

I don't see in my example how that would go over well with most groups. As someone pointed out in this thread. We don't need to know if a person significant other used to intimidate them with words and hit them. The group or at least the DM needs to know not to go to much into detail when it comes to player and npc skill checks related to intimidation. X-cards remove that. I'm not going to pause a game for hours and go over a mental or written checklist of what will bother player XYZ until myself and the rest of the group figures it out.

The other side being disingenuous and not willing to argue in good faith. Makes us out to be the enemy as intolerant, misogynistic for not willing to bend over backwards to accommodate player XYZ. I will try to work with a player to resolve any ossues. I'm not going to spend a entire session or more doing so. Yet apparently that means you and I hate people

Quote from: S'mon;1061235Welcome Forge!



For me this is the big thing. It's a hobby mostly played by geeks and nerds who often have below average social skills, but it's a social hobby that requires people to interact with and get along with other people. Encouraging "The Needs of the One (Me) Outway the Needs of the Many (Them)" thinking is absolutely poisonous to the game, and it's a sort of thinking that the X-card encourages. A group needs to have a shared standard, which is why community norms of decency such as film/video age ratings work much better. We can all have a reasonable idea what fits and what doesn't, and that in a 12 or PG-13 type game (which I think is a typical standard for mass market RPGs) there may be spiders, there may be dogs getting killed, there may be the thing that triggers me - and if I have a problem with stuff within community norms then it is appropriate for me to deal with it, not impose myself on the group.

I think the "shared standard" thing is a bit over-sold. You don't even have a perfect shared standard in this thread among the people that disagree with me!

I've been gaming since forever, and I enjoy all formats and genres pretty much. For me, convention games versus home games is not an either / or. My home group runs long-term campaigns that aim to run for a year or so, we rotate GMs. Great group, with one guy that didn't fit. He didn't get an invite when the next campaign started up, probably wouldn't have accepted it even if it had been offered. No shouting, no drama, he just wanted a very different experience from everybody else. (I think he would love one-shot DDALs instead for example).

I've seen much more permanently-divisive behaviour at long-term home games than at conventions over the years. Store games are their own beast, I suspect they have the potential to suffer the worst aspects of both, but I don't have enough experience to judge. (The few store games I have attended have varied wildly in their quality).

There's several reasons for why home games are more likely to explode bigger, not necessarily more often. I don't think the reasons are controversial, but interested in other opinions. Firstly, niggling issues are given time to brew. Secondly, people are more invested in everything.
That annoying trait that player has, you can tolerate it for a few hours...but weeks and months? That character, "Blackleaf", that you had gotten emotionally attached to over the past four months? It was complete bullshit DMing that caused her death. The first few sessions of the campaign were fresh and exciting, now it's just a tiresome slog. Who the fuck invited Jimmy, we had a great group before then.

Now I'm not saying that I don't get invested in convention one-shots, absolutely I do. DDAL modules tend to be a bit crunchy, but that's more a reflection of D&D / 5e than anything else. I tend to play games other than D&D at conventions whenever I can. At Gen Con for example, I actively seek out games I've never heard of, or games that I'm already intrigued by, but wouldn't otherwise get a chance to play at smaller events. In 2018 I actively sought out games featuring the new Delta Green and Fall of Delta Green rulesets because I wanted to experience those games from the other side of the screen, I never want to never stop learning.

Playing with different rulesets, different settings, different GMs, different players.....it can be amazing, exhilarating when folks that don't know each other just click, when you see a Bard being creative with a standard spell in a way you've never seen before, when a Delta Green GM brings new "real-world" tradecraft to the table, when a player portrays a standard template character in a way that is a first for you. I find it also makes me need to step up my game, and that's a shocking experience, in a good way.

Are convention tables always so wonderful, absolutely not. But the issues that arise are different - in my case, usually boredom, because what the GM thinks is exciting simply isn't. (c.f. at boardgame events, I've seen shouting, chairs thrown, people banned from the event and their local hobby - not yet seen that at RPG conventions). But the hit rate is 90%+ and that's plenty good enough for me.

But because the likelihood is that no-one knows each other at a one-shot convention, and you don't have the same time to resolve issues that arise during those types of games, different communication tool sets are required than for home games. I'm not convinced X-cards are necessarily the answer, but I still see the potential. I'm sorry for Forge's experience, but it's not been my (nor jhkim's) experience in eighteen other situations. Ultimately the X-card is just a tool, one of many that a GM or a multi-table host can choose, or not, to include in their toolbox. It doesn't remove other obligations from the players involved, nothing ever will.

I just read the X-card rules to see what it actually says. It's slightly ambiguous. "You don't have to explain why" can be interpreted two ways.

You use the x-card to indicate that something bothers you.
Option 1: You don't have to explain what made you uncomfortable. "What's wrong?" "I don't have to say!"
Option 2: You don't have to explain why the thing you carded makes you uncomfortable. "What's wrong?" "I don't like the way that NPC keeps putting his hands on my shoulders." "What's so bad about that? He's just trying to be friendly." "I don't want to talk about it."

Option 2 makes more sense. Option 1 is fucking moronic and defeats the whole point of using the card in the first place. Interpreting it that way is just deliberately obtuse because you want it to be a stupid thing from stupid swine who do stupidly swinish things. In order for the X-card to make any sense, you have to explain what makes you uncomfortable, but you don't have to explain why it makes you uncomfortable.

It doesn't matter why. I don't use the X-card, but if I did, I wouldn't want to know why, because it's not something that is going to be fixed at the game table anyway so talking about it would just waste game time. If the problem is something inconsequential like "there are rats in the sewer", I could skip it. Honestly, I most often wouldn't even think of mentioning rats in a dungeon because that is the kind of thing that is more conspicuous by its absence.

I'm having hard time thinking of any central game elements that couldn't be skipped that the player wouldn't know before joining the game. If you don't like rats, I can skip them in D&D, but you probably shouldn't join a WFRP game focused on skaven. If you don't like cannibalism, the ewoks don't really have to try to barbecue you in a Star Wars game but you wouldn't want to sign up for a game of All Flesh Must Be Eaten. If you don't like the sight of blood, then I can say that everyone just gets scorch marks when hit by a blaster in a sci-fi game, but Vampire is probably not the game for you.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061272I think the "shared standard" thing is a bit over-sold. You don't even have a perfect shared standard in this thread among the people that disagree with me!

I meant that there is a pretty good shared standard of what a particular cinema-derived or similar age rating represents. Obviously there is lots of variation as to what kind of rating people want in their game.

I don't see a need for an X-card, but then I only game with my friends and we're all on the same page. But the egg-timer, I see a good use for that, when the players need to make a decision, use the egg timer and that's how long you have to discuss it and then you make a decision or we have a random encounter.

I'm not sold on the X-card for my own games, but I also don't think it's an automatic signal that the game will be terrible as some people characterize.

Welcome to theRPGsite, Forge. Thanks for your example.

Quote from: Forge;1061209They eventually excused themselves from the group altogether. They know there's no hard feelings, but they also know they are welcome back whenever they feel comfortable talking to me about whatever content was the problem. My other players are still salty it ruined the session, though they are trying to be nice about it. This happened about a month ago.

At the end of the day, all I want as a GM is for my players to be up front and direct with me. I do not think it is unreasonable to require someone actually talk to me if they are having a problem rather than just X card at me vaguely.

X card: interesting in theory. Rubbish in practice. Actual healthy communication is much better than just shutting shit down. The X card just essentially punishes the whole group at times.

I would say that as people, everyone at the table is responsible for actual healthy communication. "That's the rules" - regardless of whether it is the X-card or anything else - isn't an excuse not to engage in healthy communication. Like if the game you're playing has a badly-worded rule, then you as human beings can override that and fix things rather than let your game be ruined.

I have played in games with the X-card, but I don't have any personal experience in it being activated since it was never touched in the games I played. I also know people who have used it actively, and apparently had positive experiences. This could be because they still had healthy communication in combination with using the X-card.