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Author Topic: WTF IS Player Agency?  (Read 5477 times)

Opaopajr

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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2020, 11:05:12 AM »
This Player Agency demarcation often comes up in brinskmanship epics ("Gotta Save the World Again, or Else!") or mission-based play ("Alpha squad, this is what is expected of you by oh-seven-hundred hours,"). Naturally what your character does should face coherent results; 'actions have consequences'. But some players feel constrained by the premise's structure of expectations.

Yet here is the conceptual problem: Constraint is Not Absence. You still should have choice within said constraint.

The restriction of play time, space, degree, or goals does not prevent play choice within said arena. Just as a dungeons' walls, floors, and ceilings limits directions, or a social status' expectations and responsibilities limits access and freedom, so does progression- (mysteries, prophecies, one-way journeys) or mission-based play (expectations, orders, requests) limits sequentiality and goals. However within such space there should be meaningful choices (re: within-the-fiction risk) to enliven the accomplishment, to be different enough to incur different consequences.

If you don't have buy-in to the premise, that's something to be addressed before starting -- and readdressed during if there is balking after agreement ("don't wanna, here's the likely bad results elsewhere. still don't wanna?").

If you do have buy-in but the player feels too constrained, ask yourself if there is obvious interactables that could lead to differnt results? If yes, make them "more obvious" until the player gets it. Yes, some of us are much better at lateral thinking than others and we may feel we may 'lead our players on' instead of letting them play themselves. But have faith, players are very good at surprising GMs, and they will probably come up with an unanticipated solution.

i.e. A crime scene is a restricted time and space whose time details are often eroding, and whose space will eventually have to be "closed" (reopen to non-detective work). A detective is a status whose expectations and responsibilities grant special access and freedoms to this defined time and space. These are constraints. And yet, how would you describe player agency within it? Ask the player similarly, can they imagine player agency within it?

If they cannot and beeline to weird non sequiturs of "I go take a long vacation far away," or "I sip coffee just outside of the crime scene with my eyes closed and headphones on," that's a sign of not buying-in (or extreme lack of imagination). And that's the key: The Decisions Within the Constraint. Most people intuitively know how to find Player Agency for their Character's Agency within such a framework. The Character Agency can make good or bad decisions inside and out the constraint -- the Player Agency is asking "is there anything meaningful to choose while in here?"

e.g. A list of unavoidable, always lethally hostile, balanced CR Encounters is NOT giving Player Agency, even if the Character Agency (in combat manner or its continuation) seems to remain. Change those three preceding factors and suddenly you got a way more interesting game, even if it is in a dungeon.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 11:09:57 AM by Opaopajr »
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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2020, 12:41:57 PM »
If your character can't die in combat, or can't die without player consent, or something like that, the character has no agency.

Did you mean "player" agency? Character agency is a completely separate thing (or possibly not a thing at all, depending on your point of view).

I don't think I agree. Character agency in this case is their ability to affect and be affected by the world. It doesn't just mean that the character should be powerful. A low level character has agency if they can kill someone, rather than that someone being impossible to kill by plot immunity, or if they can die and likewise are not protected. If that is lost, then the character itself actually can't take actions in the world that has any meaning.
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Mishihari

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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2020, 02:17:22 PM »
Character and player agency are definitely two different things.  To illustrate, if a character attacks an enemy, doing enough damage to kill him and he doesn't die, then that's a loss of character agency.  If the player says "I do this" and the GM says "No you don't" then that would be a loss of player agency.  In other words, a loss of player agency means that the GM is inetrfering with the player's ability to make decisions for his character.  A loss of character agency is also a loss of player agency because the player only acts in the game through his player - the character is unable to affect things so now the player's decisions don't matter.

Player agency is what's usually discussed because player agency makes the game fun.   I've never even thought of "character agency" before, so I'm mulling this as I go.  Character agency is only important in that it also impacts player agency.  I.e. we don't discuss fun for the character because it's a fictional construct.  I don't think it much matters whether player agency is lost because the GM interferes with choices or because the GM interferes with outcomes, neither is fun, so it makes sense to frame the discussion in terms of player agency rather than the other.

Identifying loss of character agency is a lot less clear cut than a loss of player agency.  If the GM says "No, you don't," that's crystal clear.  If a character's attacks don't kill an enemy, maybe he had more health than you thought, or magical protection, or legit, in-game divine favor, or whatever.

The term "character agency" also sounds peculiar to me because I usually think of agency in terms of free will, and a character by definition can't have free will - the player is controlling him.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 03:07:21 PM by Mishihari »

Razor 007

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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2020, 02:28:18 PM »
Player agency means the players can decide they aren't interested in the underground dungeon.  They'd rather hang out at the tavern and drink ale, and then go check out the 2 for 1 special at the local brothel.

Until they run out of gold and have to do something for money.

Then it's either the underground dungeon, or they are the 2 for 1 special at the local brothel. :) Or whatever they choose to do for money.


Ha!!!  Well said.
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Opaopajr

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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2020, 07:30:28 PM »
Player v Character Agency can split when there is world view (e.g. alignment) or motivation/compulsion friction (e.g. oodles of 1980s-90s mechanics). You as a player may not want to, but your character like-to-definitely will (and vice versa). Not only can it arise -- unintended or not -- from GM-Created Situation but also PC-Created Situation. In fact, one can say some of the most popular games showcase this divide: D&D, CoC, WoD, GURPS, HERO, etc.

It's ethos & stability stuff atop typical loss of control effects.

I feel the issue is when players want to say "I don't see any interesting decisions to make here," and shorten it into "I have no player agency." Sometimes that is true objectively, GM structure is too confining to be meaningfully playable (i.e. trying to roleplay solitary confinement without recourse to change the context state). Sometimes that is true subjectively, Player at a loss to see other options and is rejecting the premise. And other times it is an excuse, Player bored at accepted premise's execution and tries to reject it In-Character during play.

That last one is bad form. It is more honest to go Out-of-Character and have The Talk about one's frustration. Resolving OOC issues IC just causes problems. But so does using jargon as a dismissive short-hand; without trying to explain your perspective you are not making an effort to communicate. There is an art to useful feedback.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 07:32:11 PM by Opaopajr »
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Omega

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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #65 on: December 23, 2020, 12:42:24 AM »

If the player says "I do this" and the GM says "No you don't" then that would be a loss of player agency.  In other words, a loss of player agency means that the GM is inetrfering with the player's ability to make decisions for his character.

Except not.

There are numerous times a GM spot on to tell the player "No. Your character can not do that"
Usually when the player is trying to have the character do something either outside the rules, or just not physically possible, or not possible within the time allotted, etc. The DM says "No." and should explain why and if possible offer alternatives. Or in other cases, allow the action, but at penalty for success.

This came up here and over on BGG a year or three ago. Essentially a player in a cyberpunk RPG tells the GM their character dives behind a bar and grabs a shotgun. Except the GM has not said there is a shotgun behind the bar. Because there is not one there. Naturally over on BGG the GM is in the wrong to say "no".

Similar would be a player in a fantasy RPG telling the DM they open a chest and find a vorpal sword +10.

Ratman_tf

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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #66 on: December 23, 2020, 01:21:00 AM »

If the player says "I do this" and the GM says "No you don't" then that would be a loss of player agency.  In other words, a loss of player agency means that the GM is inetrfering with the player's ability to make decisions for his character.

Except not.

There are numerous times a GM spot on to tell the player "No. Your character can not do that"
Usually when the player is trying to have the character do something either outside the rules, or just not physically possible, or not possible within the time allotted, etc. The DM says "No." and should explain why and if possible offer alternatives. Or in other cases, allow the action, but at penalty for success.

This came up here and over on BGG a year or three ago. Essentially a player in a cyberpunk RPG tells the GM their character dives behind a bar and grabs a shotgun. Except the GM has not said there is a shotgun behind the bar. Because there is not one there. Naturally over on BGG the GM is in the wrong to say "no".

Similar would be a player in a fantasy RPG telling the DM they open a chest and find a vorpal sword +10.

I think there's an important difference between a GM making a determination and a GM telling a player what their character does.

Is there a shotgun behind the counter? GM determination. Does my character attempt to dive behind the counter? Player decision.
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Mishihari

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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #67 on: December 23, 2020, 02:01:48 AM »

If the player says "I do this" and the GM says "No you don't" then that would be a loss of player agency.  In other words, a loss of player agency means that the GM is inetrfering with the player's ability to make decisions for his character.

Except not.

There are numerous times a GM spot on to tell the player "No. Your character can not do that"
Usually when the player is trying to have the character do something either outside the rules, or just not physically possible, or not possible within the time allotted, etc. The DM says "No." and should explain why and if possible offer alternatives. Or in other cases, allow the action, but at penalty for success.

This came up here and over on BGG a year or three ago. Essentially a player in a cyberpunk RPG tells the GM their character dives behind a bar and grabs a shotgun. Except the GM has not said there is a shotgun behind the bar. Because there is not one there. Naturally over on BGG the GM is in the wrong to say "no".

Similar would be a player in a fantasy RPG telling the DM they open a chest and find a vorpal sword +10.

I thought it was obvious in the context that I meant something that was possible in the fiction and mechanics of the game. 

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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #68 on: December 23, 2020, 05:12:11 AM »

If the player says "I do this" and the GM says "No you don't" then that would be a loss of player agency.  In other words, a loss of player agency means that the GM is inetrfering with the player's ability to make decisions for his character.

Except not.

There are numerous times a GM spot on to tell the player "No. Your character can not do that"
Usually when the player is trying to have the character do something either outside the rules, or just not physically possible, or not possible within the time allotted, etc. The DM says "No." and should explain why and if possible offer alternatives. Or in other cases, allow the action, but at penalty for success.

This came up here and over on BGG a year or three ago. Essentially a player in a cyberpunk RPG tells the GM their character dives behind a bar and grabs a shotgun. Except the GM has not said there is a shotgun behind the bar. Because there is not one there. Naturally over on BGG the GM is in the wrong to say "no".

Similar would be a player in a fantasy RPG telling the DM they open a chest and find a vorpal sword +10.

I agree 100% when the gm invades your character's ability to think and do.  You can say it's within my player agency to do <this>.

Altheus

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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #69 on: December 23, 2020, 06:44:45 AM »
I've always thought of agency as the ability to make player decisions and character actions stick in the game world.

If you want your to depose a lord and take his position, the gm shouldn't you can't, if you can figure out a way to make it work then you should be able to have a go at it. I'm not saying the gm should guarantee the plan will succeed but, if it does then the character should then be in control of that chunk of the world, not reduced back to their previous state by next session.

This can make campaigns go sideways or even break entirely but it is worth it for the reaction of the players when they realise they are having impact on the world.

The example I use is Conan killing the king of Aquilonia and taking the crown for himself. I tell the players "If you can do it and make it work, then you can do it." But, I don't really overplan campaigns, I just have a few sequences of events set up that will happen unless the pcs interact with them and I can see someone trying that sort of thing would really annoy someone who had a story worked out that the players decided not to follow.

While writing this I've come up with a concise answer.

"Player agency is the ability not to follow the pre-planned story."

jhkim

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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #70 on: December 23, 2020, 10:07:36 PM »
This Player Agency demarcation often comes up in brinskmanship epics ("Gotta Save the World Again, or Else!") or mission-based play ("Alpha squad, this is what is expected of you by oh-seven-hundred hours,"). Naturally what your character does should face coherent results; 'actions have consequences'. But some players feel constrained by the premise's structure of expectations.

Yet here is the conceptual problem: Constraint is Not Absence. You still should have choice within said constraint.

The restriction of play time, space, degree, or goals does not prevent play choice within said arena. Just as a dungeons' walls, floors, and ceilings limits directions, or a social status' expectations and responsibilities limits access and freedom, so does progression- (mysteries, prophecies, one-way journeys) or mission-based play (expectations, orders, requests) limits sequentiality and goals. However within such space there should be meaningful choices (re: within-the-fiction risk) to enliven the accomplishment, to be different enough to incur different consequences.
"Player agency is the ability not to follow the pre-planned story."

I agree. A number of people have brought up extremes of the GM saying "Your character chooses to do X because I say so". But really, a GM can effectively force things to go their way pretty easily without going to such extremes.

Most published modules are fairly linear. Sometimes there's a few branches, but usually the players have to go through the encounters provided. The most common choice is just order in which they tackle the elements. So sometimes instead of going A-B-C-D, they can instead go A-C-B-D. But that's not really a lot of choice.
I'm playing in a Call of Cthulhu module now, for example - Masks of Nyarlathotep. It's got more choice than many modules, but most of that choice is just the order in which we tackle things.

By contrast, some games can be primarily player-lead. I think the simplest example of this was a short supervillains campaign that I played in. The setting was just "the modern world". We created super-powered characters, and we had to decide how we were going to amass wealth and power for ourselves. Because of the setup, the GM had to react to what we chose to do, rather than the other way around. This goes beyond even a hex crawl, since we can choose to go anywhere in the world.

The other extreme is a game like Paranoia, Delta Green, or James Bond 007 -- where the PCs are working for an agency, and are assigned missions. There the PCs really don't have a lot of choice over what they are pursuing.

The point is -- there's a lot of variation in player agency within traditional RPGs. There's nothing wrong, I think, with games like Paranoia or such where the PCs are assigned missions. Player agency doesn't always have to be maximized in order to have fun.

Theory of Games

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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #71 on: December 24, 2020, 04:10:46 PM »
I'd like to thank everyone for posting incredibly-informative sentences. You revealed to me something that's been a nagging stone in my shoes for the last year or so:

I railroad The Living Shit® out of my players :o

I thought maybe I was doing something wrong, but I like a fast-paced game and everyone seems to enjoy the whole "Runaway Train" vibe. But, I feel I should perhaps repent of this, even if they like it, doesn't mean I can't raise my craft and offer an even better experience, right?

So. I'll post another thread on a topic I've been researching all week and still find myself scratching my head.

Someone(s) asked about the Ravenloft debacle: Well. It's AD&D. And scary Uncle Gary said if you don't track time in your adventures you're a magnanimous imbecile unworthy of the DM title. So I'm tracking time BUT miscalculated the distance from the Gate of Barovia to Barovia proper. So night falls just before the party gets to the village. So. Strahd hunts at night, right? Sure he does. And the PCs had read that dead guy's letter and knew what was coming and the players were talking like they couldn't WAIT to meet Mr. Dracula and mop the floor with him.

*Shrug* So Strahd ambushes the party at the edge of the forest with six Worth wolves and a swarm of bats. Of course, he hides in the forest and attacks with his FOR-THE-LOVE-OF-ZEUS overpowered spell array and .... roll credits.

Thusly, a large wave of WTF washed over the gaming table and. Resisting the urge to say "I'm just playing my NPC --- that's what he would do", I apologized and realized I need to talk to someone. I need help. I remember Tim Kask saying he would butcher parties until Mentzer took him aside and advised him otherwise. You folks have been my personal Mentzer and I both thank you and hope you contribute to my next thread.
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Omega

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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #72 on: December 24, 2020, 05:15:29 PM »
Player Agency is another made up bugaboo buzzword concocted by the the Forge cult and Pundits swine. Oft seeming to be used along with demands for "the Narrative". uh-huh. Yeah. Riiiiight.

I've never seen it used with good intentions and seems 90% of the time to be a battle cry of storygamers when they want to shackle the DM and get their way. For the blessed Narrative, of course.

Player Agency can to die in hell.

If a player tries an action then the DM tells them if they can or cant do that action within the constraints of the system. If the DM is not doing their jog then thats a bad DM. If the player is trying to abuse or bend the rules for essentially an "I win" button then that is a bad player.

Neither have jack all to do with the adventure type and you can and will have either types of bad behavior in a freeform adventure as you will a scripted one.

Not to mention some idiots idea of a "railroad" approaches "everything on earth". Sorry. No. Try again please.

Pat
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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #73 on: December 24, 2020, 06:32:07 PM »
Player Agency is another made up bugaboo buzzword concocted by the the Forge cult and Pundits swine.
No, it wasn't. Agency was in common use in the *.advocacy newsgroup, long before the Forge was an apple in Ron Edward's eyecart.

Theory of Games

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Re: WTF IS Player Agency?
« Reply #74 on: December 24, 2020, 07:29:08 PM »
Player Agency was a difficult thing where players tried to define a codified world.

Please explain the ridges.

The monsters define the encounter.
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