OK, so I'm DMing a 5e game, and there will be a powerful magic item for the PCs that they might get as a reward from a grateful dragon. It should be a big deal - maybe not quite artifact level, but much more than just some extra damage.

One of the options I'm thinking of is an item that conveys the approximate shape of earth and stone, to within plus or minus 3 feet, out to 300 feet or so. This would mean that once they are at the site, they would know what the map of the dungeon looks like - although not what is inside the rooms.

At a metagame level, this means that the players can look at a rough map of the dungeon beforehand. I would probably given them a traced map, and they would just fill in a few details, which would simplify the back-and-forth of drawing out map shapes.

As a straw poll, how would you feel about such an item as a player? Would it spoil the fun of dungeon exploration? Or would it be a useful reconnaissance?

I don't know that it would ruin things, maybe if it was easy to use and always available then it might get boring.  You could still have fun if the thing projected a 3d globe onto a 2d map.  Or if it sent out some form of magical "ping" which possibly could alert others to it's presence.

Also there's not an assassin or thief in the world that wouldn't move heaven and earth to get that thing from them.

If it only maps what the characters have allready explored. Then its no big deal. Its essentially serving the same purpose as a character mapping.

Especially if it can be mixed up by teleport arches and other mapping confounding dungeon features.

Something like that actually appeared as a treasure in I believe Unearthed Arcanna, 2nd ed or a Dragon article?

Keep it basic and only what the holder knows and its no impact on gameplay.

The more tricks it can do. The more potentially troublesome it can become. Especially if it can map areas unseen or detect secret doors or the like.

Even if it tells you the shape and size of the room/hallways, it doesn't tell you where the traps are, or what enemies may be inside?

Make it more like a radar - 3 times a day use, it pings the nearby rooms. Add some more powers to it to recompense that it's not all the time working.

I've noticed plenty of video games have started doing this anyway, and while it might impact resource management (by making it easy to estimate how much dungeon is left vs your number of special abilities for instance), it doesn't make things a cake-walk either.

Note that secret rooms also stop working.

Having this item in your campaign will force you to surprise the players with the variety and number of threats rather than site layout, but given how difficult describing spaces and having the players actually understand them is in D&D, I don't think this is so troublesome.

Again, this old joke comes to mind:

Quote from: Christopher Brady;887292Even if it tells you the shape and size of the room/hallways, it doesn't tell you where the traps are, or what enemies may be inside?

Well, from the description, I'd expect it to show pit traps, but not traps in general.

I actually rather like the idea, especially when combined with teleport traps or the like.  "Uh, guys?  The map says there's not supposed to be a wall here...", so then they know that something happened, but not what or where.

The key to making it work is, of course, to make it a limited resource.  Once a day or something like that, rather than an always-on, continuously-updating view of what's nearby.  Or I suppose you could make it unlimited uses... but you have to sacrifice the life of a PC-race creature each time.

To clarify what I was originally thinking of -

1) Yes, it is a powerful item, and it would do more than just show them what they've already seen. It would show them where hidden rooms are, but not how to get into them.

2) As I was picturing it, it only shows the rough outline of the rooms, not every detail - like where traps are, although logically pit traps should be shown, as nDervish said. I'd trace the GM map or give them an edited copy rather than an exact photocopy with all details (which often shows details besides stone walls).

3) I'd probably limit it to once a day or maybe even once a week. Maps don't change that frequently, and if there is a tunneling creature or such, that would be an option to confuse things.

4) A cost for use seems possibly appropriate, but sacrificing the life of a creature means they just wouldn't use it. (At least my party, and even an evil party would only sacrifice people they didn't like.)

5) For an additional limitation, I might have it a chance to throw in false features - like picturing a section or hidden room that isn't really there. That's a little more work for me in making the player map, but I only have to do it once for them to have some doubt about the map.

There's a Rolemaster item which is a bug in a jar. You have to care for the bug, feed it etc and once you loet it out of the jar it scouts out a 300 foot radius from your position. As its a bug, it can crawl under doors and into small places, cracks etc. It takes a while for it to scout the area, but when it comes back it squirts ink out its bum onto a surface (either the ground or a hastily placed piece of parchment). I swear my players preferred that bug both as a pet and a magic item to anything else they had through the campaign.

As it has to use its own 'ink' it can only make 1 map a day, which you might want to change.

Quote from: jhkim;887273As a straw poll, how would you feel about such an item as a player? Would it spoil the fun of dungeon exploration? Or would it be a useful reconnaissance?

• Yes it would spoil the exploration.
• Yes it would be extremely useful for reconnaissance.

The degree of spoilage is directly related to the utility of the item. The more useful, the less exploration being done. And I agree that thieves and assassins (and those who employ them) would really want the item.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;887303I've noticed plenty of video games have started doing this anyway...

It sounds exactly like some videogames. It also sounds exactly like what some GMs have done for years anyway. I remember one DM who was an architect in real life had very elaborate maps both at miniature size scale and at a higher scale for the DM. He used to lay out sections of the map for us as we played. While it wasn't really my cup of tea as I like mapping and exploring, it worked pretty well and as you noted, some traps, monsters, molds, and jellies wouldn't be shown.

Quote from: jhkim;8873463) I'd probably limit it to once a day or maybe even once a week. Maps don't change that frequently, and if there is a tunneling creature or such, that would be an option to confuse things.

Limiting usages in some way sound good as it makes it a resource they have to manage and thus one they will value more than if it is always on or always available.

Another question is how does it depict things, e.g. does it immediately show what's around them or does it more gradually draw the area around them? The time taken to show them their surroundings could matter if they are suddenly transported somewhere. There's a big difference if the answer to "How do we get out of hear?" is "Hang on the map hasn't redrawn itself yet!" rather than an immediate answer of "Go left 40', right 20', then open the second door on your left to find the stairs out."

It could also be interesting if it was a magical parchment that works kind of like an Etch-a-Sketch. So to get a new map, you automatically erase the old map.

You could also treat the range of mapping like sensors are treated in media like Star Trek and assume that different densities of soil, rock, metal, or lead might change the range so that they aren't guaranteed an exact 300' every time and the map might draw slower when trying to sense through dense or resistant material.

I don't think this is a problem, as long as it isn't something you can pick up in every magic shop or something. If the players legitimately acquire the item and use it to good effect that sounds fine. It might be good too because if they end up selling it/losing it/changing characters etc and no longer have the item, it will be a real contrast going back to the old ways. I guess the only thing to keep in mind, which you probably have thought about plenty already, is things that you might expect to present a challenge won't be that big a deal when the magic map device is used.

As a player, it would depend on it's function in the game. I could see it being awesome if was used to reveal a bunch of hidden cool stuff in a place earlier in the game that I thought we were done with.  But if it was in the context of "The game is going to be about cave exploration from now on, and you get to see the map of all the caves" then it might make it a bit boring.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;887408I guess the only thing to keep in mind, which you probably have thought about plenty already, is things that you might expect to present a challenge won't be that big a deal when the magic map device is used.

Well, sure. The three main challenges that I see it solving are:
(1) Instead of "is there a hidden chamber", the challenge becomes "how do we get into the hidden chamber?"
(2) Pit traps are detected in advance, basically nullifying them.
(3) PCs can pace themselves a little better by knowing how big the dungeon is, though this only loosely corresponds to what and how much is in each part.

It is a powerful item, and will have costs and drawbacks. But I want them to have a powerful item - I'd prefer that to several minor items.

Quote from: Bren;887405

• Yes it would spoil the exploration.
• Yes it would be extremely useful for reconnaissance.

The degree of spoilage is directly related to the utility of the item. The more useful, the less exploration being done. And I agree that thieves and assassins (and those who employ them) would really want the item.

My question was about the fun rather than the exploration. That is, do you think dungeons would generally be less fun for you if you had reconnaissance of the layout?

For me personally, I suspect not. For comparison, in a lot of outdoor adventures or town adventures, PCs can see ahead a lot more than in dungeons. So the fun is more about finding out what's going on at "x" spot on the map, rather than making the map bit by bit. I find that what's in the rooms is the sort of exploration I'm more into.

Quote from: Bren;887405Limiting usages in some way sound good as it makes it a resource they have to manage and thus one they will value more than if it is always on or always available.

Another question is how does it depict things, e.g. does it immediately show what's around them or does it more gradually draw the area around them? The time taken to show them their surroundings could matter if they are suddenly transported somewhere. There's a big difference if the answer to "How do we get out of hear?" is "Hang on the map hasn't redrawn itself yet!" rather than an immediate answer of "Go left 40', right 20', then open the second door on your left to find the stairs out."

It could also be interesting if it was a magical parchment that works kind of like an Etch-a-Sketch. So to get a new map, you automatically erase the old map.

You could also treat the range of mapping like sensors are treated in media like Star Trek and assume that different densities of soil, rock, metal, or lead might change the range so that they aren't guaranteed an exact 300' every time and the map might draw slower when trying to sense through dense or resistant material.

I'm thinking I'll go with once a week, and it overwrites the old map. Time will probably be reasonably quick but not combat time. Probably 10 minutes - like a ritual spell. I'd prefer not to get complicated over the time and range, though. It'll just work and get basically a whole dungeon.

There is the chance of showing false extra chambers, which will be a main drawback. That'll be easier to run, because it is easier to cross off an extra part of the map than to draw in a new part that wasn't included.

If it spares the tedious, make-work bullshit that is "mapping" as an actual player task, bring it.

Quote from: Kiero;887447If it spares the tedious, make-work bullshit that is "mapping" as an actual player task, bring it.

OK, on reflection, I think it's pretty simple. I'll give them this item, and later after trying it out, they'll have a chance to swap it for some other item that's just as powerful.

If they love not having to draw maps, then they'll keep this.

If they would prefer to have power and keep the mystery of exploration (as some people apparently do), then they can trade.

Boom.