Quote from: Abyssal Maw;366623That's it. I'm bringing a halfling fighter to RegCon.

But would you bring a halfling fighter who was a crap warrior but was fun to play because of his short temper and paranoid fear of spiders or will you show the guy how you can optimise a halfling fighter using the right combinations of feats weapons and tactics?

See the latter is just optimisation ... The former is roleplaying

Quote from: Drohem;366259My group has been running a game with several hybrid characters to test out the hybrid rules.  I am not really impressed with the hybrid rules.  Personally, I think that hybrid characters are less powerful, in the scope of the 4e mechanics, than a single classed character.  I also feel the same way about multiclassing in 4e D&D in that it's a waste of feats.

So what I am hearing here is, "multiclassing and hybrid rules allow for more role-play focused characters that will die quickly in games with min/max build assumptions."

Quote from: jibbajibba;366630But would you bring a halfling fighter who was a crap warrior but was fun to play because of his short temper and paranoid fear of spiders or will you show the guy how you can optimise a halfling fighter using the right combinations of feats weapons and tactics?

See the latter is just optimisation ... The former is roleplaying

Damn straight!

But then, that's why I think the PHB3 will be the first book to really bring 4E home to me. I desperately want fun characters, not point mastery experts in my games.

Quote from: Thanlis;366622He also thinks that the game breaks if you have a 16 in your primary attribute, mind you.

I've had this conversation in real life with a die-hard 4E fan. I had table-banned a couple of cringy races for my campaign, and he protested that without the deva race and others a lot of the PH2 classes were (quote) "unplayable". So I ask him why. He goes: because there's these secondary effects on powers whose effectiveness (in duration etc.) is measured by your secondary or primary stat. If you have a +0 modifier in that stat, the secondary effect basically doesn't happen.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;366619So we are all cracking up, and my (4E fan!) friend Alan is trying to negotiate and debate this guy based on the exact same things you are saying "but it's about the roleplaying!" and "that sounds like someones favorite character concept!"

Oh yes how funny. It's because LFR is full of people who only care about RRRoleplaying except for the occasional optimizers that the LFR feedback channels have bullied WotC to nerf orbwizards and STR clerics out of existence just last week. I have seen exactly two types of people on the 'net (I haven't come across them in real life) who cheer at this.

Type 1: LFR player who rejoices that his suboptimal build no longer gets that 'outshining' by that other guy at his table

Type 2: LFR DM who's been plagued by these builds

I've got some sympathy for the guys in group 2, but group 1, yeah...

Sorry, but I'm utterly convinced that 90% of home games couldn't care less about requiring official fixes to some builds from above. It's only when you play in the LFR that these fixes don't take place unless they are mandated from above. So there.

Quote from: Windjammer;366642Sorry, but I'm utterly convinced that 90% of home games couldn't care less about requiring official fixes to some builds from above. It's only when you play in the LFR that these fixes don't take place unless they are mandated from above. So there.

Total threads in the LFR WotC messageboard: 1,913, with 35,506 posts.

Total threads in the Character Optimization WotC messageboard: 7,783, with 142,569 posts.

I'm not sayin' that there's not a group of 4e players who deserve your annoyance, I'm just sayin' it's not the LFR crowd. There are a few CharOp posters who also play LFR, but it's really not a huge overlap.

Quote from: jibbajibba;366630But would you bring a halfling fighter who was a crap warrior but was fun to play because of his short temper and paranoid fear of spiders or will you show the guy how you can optimise a halfling fighter using the right combinations of feats weapons and tactics?

See the latter is just optimisation ... The former is roleplaying

Wow, thanks for the tip! But I really don't need your help figuring out what roleplaying is.

Once your'e in the social arena and it isn't just your 5 pals from public school, D&D really is a team game, (and it's about intrepid adventurers rather than comedic bumblers). In the case of RegCon, people have paid money and actually gotten hotel-space to be in the event-- so while I'm still not planning on creating the superoptimized halfling fighter, I'm also not going to create an intentionally crappy character in order to deliberately sabotage the rest of the groups I'm in through ineptitude and call it roleplaying, either. As fun as that may be.

I still haven't settled on the background for the character. "Circus performer" as a background sounds fun, though.

Quote from: Thanlis;366651Total threads in the LFR WotC messageboard: 1,913, with 35,506 posts.

Total threads in the Character Optimization WotC messageboard: 7,783, with 142,569 posts.

I'm not sayin' that there's not a group of 4e players who deserve your annoyance, I'm just sayin' it's not the LFR crowd. There are a few CharOp posters who also play LFR, but it's really not a huge overlap.

When did you find the time to run the statistical analysis on that?  In fact, with the CharOp board having almost five times the number of messages as LFR, I would bet there is a good deal more overlap than you think, as I am pretty sure the WotC mods are fairly strict about moving off topic stuff to an appropriate forum.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;366655Wow, thanks for the tip! But I really don't need your help figuring out what roleplaying is.

Once your'e in the social arena and it isn't just your 5 pals from public school, D&D really is a team game, (and it's about intrepid adventurers rather than comedic bumblers). In the case of RegCon, people have paid money and actually gotten hotel-space to be in the event-- so while I'm still not planning on creating the superoptimized halfling fighter, I'm also not going to create an intentionally crappy character in order to deliberately sabotage the rest of the groups I'm in through ineptitude and call it roleplaying, either. As fun as that may be.

I still haven't settled on the background for the character. "Circus performer" as a background sounds fun, though.

You're going to be at RegCon? Neat!

Quote from: Thanlis;366622The funniest threads in the world are the ones over on the Gaming Den. Frank Trollman is sitting there right now arguing that there is no conceivable reason why anyone would ever make a halfling fighter. There are BETTER CHOICES. He'll tell you so. And he literally can't understand that someone would make a choice that was suboptimal from a mechanics perspective.

(He hates 4e. A lot.)

He also thinks that the game breaks if you have a 16 in your primary attribute, mind you.

I played a Halfling Fighter in a 4E campaign for a while. He had a Napoleon complex and a cockney accent. It was buttloads of fun. Isn't that the only reason you really need?

Also, he consistently outperformed the Minotaur Fighter, which was also fun.

Quote from: Shazbot79;366761I played a Halfling Fighter in a 4E campaign for a while. He had a Napoleon complex and a cockney accent. It was buttloads of fun. Isn't that the only reason you really need?

Also, he consistently outperformed the Minotaur Fighter, which was also fun.

LOL. That does sound like a lot of fun.

Quote from: camazotz;366639So what I am hearing here is, "multiclassing and hybrid rules allow for more role-play focused characters that will die quickly in games with min/max build assumptions."

OK, if that's what your hearing.

I don't think that the multiclassing or hybrid rules necessarily facilitate role-play focused characters, nor do those rules necessarily hinder role-play focused characters.  

From a purely game mechanics point of view, I feel that spending the necessary feats to follow a multiclassing feat tree is a waste of resources.  I feel that spending those feats elsewhere than the multiclassing feats would be better resource management in character creation and development.  I also feel the same way about hybrid characters in that benefits gained from being a hybrid class character don't out weigh the trade-offs.  

Of course, this is only my opinion, and it is subjective.  Others may not feel the same way.  Also, I wouldn't rule out playing a multiclass or hybrid character because I don't solely create my character based upon a purely mechanical point of view, but it is a consideration to some degree in character creation.  I choose to create role-play focused characters, and I am often made fun of by my friends in my primary group, in good humor, about my choices in character creation.

In fact, in one of our 3.5 D&D games, I stirred a bees' hives of railing because I chose to create a 1st level Aristocrat (NPC class).  In thinking about this character's concept, I had wanted him to be from a specific noble family line in the game world.  Also, I had also thought that the class could make a good PC class, and so I wanted to try it out.

Quote from: camazotz;366640Damn straight!

But then, that's why I think the PHB3 will be the first book to really bring 4E home to me. I desperately want fun characters, not point mastery experts in my games.

I have a copy already.

WotC is sending pre-release copies to select brick and mortar stores.

You might want to have a look at your local retailer.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;366655Wow, thanks for the tip! But I really don't need your help figuring out what roleplaying is.

Once your'e in the social arena and it isn't just your 5 pals from public school, D&D really is a team game, (and it's about intrepid adventurers rather than comedic bumblers). In the case of RegCon, people have paid money and actually gotten hotel-space to be in the event-- so while I'm still not planning on creating the superoptimized halfling fighter, I'm also not going to create an intentionally crappy character in order to deliberately sabotage the rest of the groups I'm in through ineptitude and call it roleplaying, either. As fun as that may be.

I still haven't settled on the background for the character. "Circus performer" as a background sounds fun, though.

Heheheh you sure ?
So you are really saying you can play any role you like so long as that doesn't interfere with the well balanced party mechanic and your PC is mechanically optimised

Then we would disagree. I would much rather play Napoleon Proudfoot and help everyone have a good time than finding a way to maximise Halfling Dexterity and small size in a combat build that utilsed a feat stack optimised round high rate of fire missile attacks with secondary attribute damage modification (or whatever )

Think about your most memorable games do you remember the fact that you managed to optimise damage over a 7 round combat or do you remember that great scene when the party dressed as dancing girls , even the half orc barbarian, managed to talk their way past the king's guards and sneak into the treasure room only to find that it was guarded by an androsphinx, which the mage killed by casting a reversed enlarge spell on the chain that connected it to the wall.....

just asking ....

Quote from: Windjammer;366642Sorry, but I'm utterly convinced that 90% of home games couldn't care less about requiring official fixes to some builds from above. It's only when you play in the LFR that these fixes don't take place unless they are mandated from above. So there.

You mean like how 90% of MMOGers couldn't care about balance issues and its only the PVPers and diehard Raiders who keep clamoring for or raging against the nerfs from above?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;366655I really don't need your help figuring out what roleplaying is.

Once your'e in the social arena and it isn't just your 5 pals from public school, D&D really is a team game

Am I the only one that sees the irony?