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Author Topic: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow  (Read 8099 times)

hedgehobbit

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2022, 11:56:02 PM »
"Udadrow, Aevendrow, and Lorendrow"

Looks like WotC is following GW's lead in giving everything a silly sounding name that they can copywrite and trademark. The legal team is now driving the game design.


Who da Drow?  U da drow!

Shasarak

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2022, 12:13:33 AM »
Except Gary Gygax released Unearthed Arcana in 1985, which has drow as an official race for players - and drow characters could be of good alignment and non-Lolth-worshipping. He might not have liked Drizzt, but it's a character type he clearly allowed for.

Gary famously allowed his players to play anything including a Balrog.

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oggsmash

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2022, 06:41:22 AM »
    Allowing one player character to be a "monster race" was not in any way contradicting the point of view GG put out about the Drow.  There is a whole section in the DMG about Monster player characters and the circumstances such a thing (especially a good or neutral one) could happen.  So it was not something that suddenly happened with UA, the option to be a normally monstrous race or creature and a PC has ALWAYS been in AD&D.   GG had issue with the later authors trying to present the drow with redeeming qualities en masse, which they really did not have.  I have also gotten the vibe that the real issue is not so much their color (they are JET black, at least back when I cared) but their very Matriarchal, very nit-pick back stabbing culture.  GG was saying something that Current Year can not abide by with Drow culture.

SHARK

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2022, 07:39:34 AM »
Greetings!

Geesus. You know, it is not an unforgivable sin to have some kind of Drow-Elf community that doesn't worship Lolth, or embraces a non-evil or even a Good alignment. Last time I checked...yes, these exceptional individuals and groups of non-evil Drow Elves have always existed, even back in the early AD&D days.

The difference is the FRAMING.

Back then, the frame was the vast majority of Drow Elves worship Lolth, are Chaotic Evil, and have a wicked and cruel matriarchal culture. Somewhere, there may be some isolated communities of Drow Elves that worship different deities, have different alignments, and have developed a different kind of culture.

Notice there isn't any references to anything being "Problematic" or other woke fucking bullshit.

This new turn of events at WOTC and retconning Drow lore and everything is yet another example of SJW's wiping their ass with traditional D&D.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Thorn Drumheller

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2022, 08:46:57 AM »
Greetings!

Geesus. You know, it is not an unforgivable sin to have some kind of Drow-Elf community that doesn't worship Lolth, or embraces a non-evil or even a Good alignment. Last time I checked...yes, these exceptional individuals and groups of non-evil Drow Elves have always existed, even back in the early AD&D days.

The difference is the FRAMING.

Back then, the frame was the vast majority of Drow Elves worship Lolth, are Chaotic Evil, and have a wicked and cruel matriarchal culture. Somewhere, there may be some isolated communities of Drow Elves that worship different deities, have different alignments, and have developed a different kind of culture.

Notice there isn't any references to anything being "Problematic" or other woke fucking bullshit.

This new turn of events at WOTC and retconning Drow lore and everything is yet another example of SJW's wiping their ass with traditional D&D.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes, SHARK, this. It's how it is being framed now. The sjdubs are framing anything "distasteful" to them to be this stupid, utopian wannabe, barista adventuring day.

That didn't make sense but what the sjdubs are doing is stupid LOL
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SHARK

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2022, 08:59:39 AM »
Greetings!

Geesus. You know, it is not an unforgivable sin to have some kind of Drow-Elf community that doesn't worship Lolth, or embraces a non-evil or even a Good alignment. Last time I checked...yes, these exceptional individuals and groups of non-evil Drow Elves have always existed, even back in the early AD&D days.

The difference is the FRAMING.

Back then, the frame was the vast majority of Drow Elves worship Lolth, are Chaotic Evil, and have a wicked and cruel matriarchal culture. Somewhere, there may be some isolated communities of Drow Elves that worship different deities, have different alignments, and have developed a different kind of culture.

Notice there isn't any references to anything being "Problematic" or other woke fucking bullshit.

This new turn of events at WOTC and retconning Drow lore and everything is yet another example of SJW's wiping their ass with traditional D&D.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes, SHARK, this. It's how it is being framed now. The sjdubs are framing anything "distasteful" to them to be this stupid, utopian wannabe, barista adventuring day.

That didn't make sense but what the sjdubs are doing is stupid LOL

Greetings!

Damn straight, my friend!

I'm curious, though, what is exactly going on with this whole drive amongst WOTC--as well as others--to have utopian wannabe, "Barista Adventuring Days"? This weird obsession with sex, "Hot messes in college"; working at normal, modern jobs, gay dances, and celebrating gossip networks with faeries? It's kind of scattered, but I think my thoughts are sensing this kind of design focus and theme, alternating between sex, drama, utopianism, and an insistence on indulging in modern jobs and petty details of ordinary lives. If that makes any sense?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

hedgehobbit

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2022, 09:02:43 AM »
They have completely wrecked the whole point of Drizzt. Way to fucking go, WotC. I would rather deal with a thousand badly-designed original content donut steel knockoffs than this shit.

I'm not so worried about Drizzt, but the Underdark itself. As it was originally created, the Underdark was a unique environment. Not because it was a cave network but because it was a vast land ruled over by a powerful race of evil elves. While you might find a temporary reprieve, you were never truly safe with the Drow roaming round. You weren't going to find a nice Drow girl and settle down like Little House on the UnderPrairie. By making Drow not evil but mostly good, you've taken the one unique thing about their homeland and turned it into just another wilderness.

Once again it's subtraction by addition.

Ghostmaker

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2022, 09:23:28 AM »
They have completely wrecked the whole point of Drizzt. Way to fucking go, WotC. I would rather deal with a thousand badly-designed original content donut steel knockoffs than this shit.

I'm not so worried about Drizzt, but the Underdark itself. As it was originally created, the Underdark was a unique environment. Not because it was a cave network but because it was a vast land ruled over by a powerful race of evil elves. While you might find a temporary reprieve, you were never truly safe with the Drow roaming round. You weren't going to find a nice Drow girl and settle down like Little House on the UnderPrairie. By making Drow not evil but mostly good, you've taken the one unique thing about their homeland and turned it into just another wilderness.

Once again it's subtraction by addition.
Yup. And it cheapens Drizzt's entire character arc, as well as wreaking havoc on the non-Lolth minorities (Eilistraee, Vhaeraun) who were also fighting to get the drow out from under Lolth's thumb. Way to fucking go, WotC.

(Among the scraps I had written for a modern urban fantasy setting was that the drow who had landed in modern day were, after a short period of disorientation, overjoyed to be out from under Lolth. Not because they were any less evil, but because they no longer had to deal with a lunatic bitch of a goddess who would fuck with them for the lulz. They were still opportunistic bastards, but now they could be bastards on their own terms.)

hedgehobbit

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2022, 09:37:41 AM »
I'm curious, though, what is exactly going on with this whole drive amongst WOTC--as well as others--to have utopian wannabe, "Barista Adventuring Days"? This weird obsession with sex, "Hot messes in college"; working at normal, modern jobs, gay dances, and celebrating gossip networks with faeries? It's kind of scattered, but I think my thoughts are sensing this kind of design focus and theme, alternating between sex, drama, utopianism, and an insistence on indulging in modern jobs and petty details of ordinary lives. If that makes any sense?

This is just the logical conclusion to the idea that "representation matters". You need to see people of your own race in game. If you are disabled, you need to see people who are also disabled in game. If you are a loser millennial who has trouble adulting, you need to see loser millennials who have trouble adulting in the game as well. The whole thing has turned into an exercise in self validation.

Add this to the fact that for most D&D writers, their idea of "fantasy" is Harry Potter which, ultimately, had more to do with relationships than actual magical adventuring.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 10:42:30 AM by hedgehobbit »

zircher

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2022, 10:46:50 AM »
When did that change?  Unless I was reading a Hardy Boys story, I never wanted to read stories about scrawny and awkward teenage boys.  I wanted super spies, sword wielding ass kickers, super heroes, and clever scientists, engineers, and sorcerers.
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Thorn Drumheller

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2022, 11:26:17 AM »
This is just the logical conclusion to the idea that "representation matters". You need to see people of your own race in game. If you are disabled, you need to see people who are also disabled in game. If you are a loser millennial who has trouble adulting, you need to see loser millennials who have trouble adulting in the game as well. The whole thing has turned into an exercise in self validation.

Add this to the fact that for most D&D writers, their idea of "fantasy" is Harry Potter which, ultimately, had more to do with relationships than actual magical adventuring.
Ain't that the gawds own truth. That representation bs. This has been on my mind, especially lurking TBP (I know, I know, mental torturing myself lol). But what I realized are, exactly what you said hedge, they're loser millennials who can't adult. It's like they're technically "adult" (as in above 18 or whatever your countries age of adulthood it) but they are, and will ever be children. Because they know no adversity. And when real life kicks them when they're down, as it will, they reeee and complain and get like minded individuals to reeee and complain.

It's just astounding.
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jhkim

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2022, 12:08:46 PM »
I'm not so worried about Drizzt, but the Underdark itself. As it was originally created, the Underdark was a unique environment. Not because it was a cave network but because it was a vast land ruled over by a powerful race of evil elves. While you might find a temporary reprieve, you were never truly safe with the Drow roaming round. You weren't going to find a nice Drow girl and settle down like Little House on the UnderPrairie. By making Drow not evil but mostly good, you've taken the one unique thing about their homeland and turned it into just another wilderness.

What I understood from the article was that the other drow varieties are outside of the Underdark. The Underdark doesn't have an icy north or southern jungles. I believe those were deliberately chosen for non-underground areas of darkness. The arctic circle is in darkness for half the year, so I suspect the Starlight drow there live in near underground for the sunny half-year, and then occupy the surface during the dark half-year. Real-world rainforest floor has almost complete darkness (less than 2% of sunlight), which in the fantasy jungle may be complete, hence the Greenshadow drow live in forest floor communities.

So I think the idea is that the Underdark remains unchanged, but there are communities of unrelated drow in other parts of the world.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2022, 01:28:19 PM »
I'm not a Realms fan, but I think there have been surface-jungle-dwelling drow in the Calimshan region since the late 80s or so. I don't know if they've ever been explored in depth, so that means I couldn't say whether this is picking up a stray thread of lore or involves actual retcons to their society.

Ghostmaker

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2022, 02:15:07 PM »
There's a jungle-dwelling variant in Eberron. But they're no more or less evil than any other critter (mind you, Eberron tosses the alignment rules for monsters, outside of aberrations and outsiders, right at the start).

oggsmash

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2022, 03:47:19 PM »
Greetings!

Geesus. You know, it is not an unforgivable sin to have some kind of Drow-Elf community that doesn't worship Lolth, or embraces a non-evil or even a Good alignment. Last time I checked...yes, these exceptional individuals and groups of non-evil Drow Elves have always existed, even back in the early AD&D days.

The difference is the FRAMING.

Back then, the frame was the vast majority of Drow Elves worship Lolth, are Chaotic Evil, and have a wicked and cruel matriarchal culture. Somewhere, there may be some isolated communities of Drow Elves that worship different deities, have different alignments, and have developed a different kind of culture.

Notice there isn't any references to anything being "Problematic" or other woke fucking bullshit.

This new turn of events at WOTC and retconning Drow lore and everything is yet another example of SJW's wiping their ass with traditional D&D.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes, SHARK, this. It's how it is being framed now. The sjdubs are framing anything "distasteful" to them to be this stupid, utopian wannabe, barista adventuring day.

That didn't make sense but what the sjdubs are doing is stupid LOL

Greetings!

Damn straight, my friend!

I'm curious, though, what is exactly going on with this whole drive amongst WOTC--as well as others--to have utopian wannabe, "Barista Adventuring Days"? This weird obsession with sex, "Hot messes in college"; working at normal, modern jobs, gay dances, and celebrating gossip networks with faeries? It's kind of scattered, but I think my thoughts are sensing this kind of design focus and theme, alternating between sex, drama, utopianism, and an insistence on indulging in modern jobs and petty details of ordinary lives. If that makes any sense?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

  Its as if they saw the "Papers and Paychecks" cartoon in the first edition DMG and thought that is what D&D was really all about.