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Author Topic: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow  (Read 2909 times)

PSIandCO

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2022, 09:13:44 PM »
They should have made Drow like Elf racists, imperialists, racists. Give them Orange skin but have them commonly go in blackface for religious reasons. Make them evil again in a way the left can appreciate.
They did. Drow were literally racist imperialists, who got cursed with blackface for religious reasons (siding Lolth in the war between her and Corellon). They are only a "minority" in the sense that their numbers are technically lower than humans, same as other races. But they were never a "marginalized" group in the woke sense, but rather the complete opposite: a race of privileged oppressors, who are more beautiful, powerful and rich than many other races, and are racial supremacists who seek to enslave and exploit others, who they consider inferior.

The reason these cretins associate them with being an oppressed "minority" is cuz they're black, and these people are incapable of seeing pass superficial characteristics. But they're the complete diametric opposite of an oppressed group, they're basically elf Nazis with spider emblems instead of swastikas.

I voted for Trump, and I approve of monocultural evil drow regardless of skin color.
...Black people need a role model that isn't beholden to the culture created by "Democrats" and "Rap music".
Rap music... rape, murder, steal, +democrat "children without fathers is GOOD! abandon the pregnant, murder your babies, depend on the welfare state"...

oh. great. black people really are drow.

VisionStorm

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2022, 09:25:17 PM »
Yeah. What I get from the article is that the cult of Lolth drow are unchanged.

Except that the "cult of Lolth" was the norm, and now it's being reframed as the exception and relegated just to Menzoberranzan, like it never existed outside of it and people never had reason to fear the drow were it not for that place.

The article from the OP states that the cult of Lolth have a stronghold at Menzoberranzan, but it doesn't say that they don't exist at all outside the city. It doesn't look like it is contradicting with, say, Out of the Abyss and other lore. The cult of Lolth can be widespread, but they have a central stronghold and they don't extend everywhere, like the arctic or jungles.

It might not say that Loth worshipers don't exist outside the city, but it implies that Loth worship isn't the norm by framing it as being "“corrupted” by Lolth’s teachings". As if the original drow back when the race got split off from other elves weren't willing followers of Lolth, and it wasn't till later that worship of other gods emerged.

This comes down to how one wants monocultural races. I feel like in a setting which is a region of only a smattering of countries like Harn or the on-screen parts of Middle Earth, then monocultural races aren't a big deal. Humans are mostly monocultural as well. But if one has a full Earth-sized globe with radically different human cultures - or a multiverse of many worlds - then monocultural races don't fit well.

I think having options for different cultures of elves is a good thing. When a game world spans everything from arctic tundra to teeming rainforest, I think it's nice to have the option that the elves on opposite sides of the world have varying culture instead of all having the same language, customs, and religion.

Races have never been monocultural in D&D. Even to the extent that you might claim that the distinctions were weak or not well developed, they were always specified nonetheless. Drows even had mentions of multiple cities with worship of other gods within the Realms since decades ago. This is an imaginary problem (in multiple levels, since it's also based on inserting racist associations that were never there and getting offended about FICTIONAL racism even if it was) based on a false framing of what things were actually like.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm not claiming that existing D&D races are always monocultural. My initial statement is about fantasy settings in general - hence my mention of Harn, for example, which is a non-D&D setting. I was criticizing the view that drow *should* be a monoculture, such that having different varieties of drow is ruining them.

I agree that there have always been varying drow, especially since Unearthed Arcana was released in 1985 and made drow an official player character race. There are many cases of non-evil and/or non-Lolth-worshipping drow.

Fair enough.

Namie

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2022, 10:01:58 PM »

Elaine cunningham books? I dunno... Lolth Ate her hubby, her daughter ate the boy, Lolth ate her daughter.
...and no, not in the fun sex colloquial way. Gobbled them all up. DEAD DEAD DEAD. Nom-nom-nom... ^^


Things didn't really go like that (no one ate anyone). Greenwood also explained that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun survived, thanks to a plan with Mystra. The notes in this article explains the cooperation with Mystra better: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eilistraee#cite_note-90
WotC did restore them in 5e (WotC erased those books, it's as if those were never written), but they proceeded to kinda disregard Eilistraee and all the other deities in the new drow lore.

They needed to erase Eilistraee to drive the fictitious point home that drow were always "all evil" and that this is wrong. And since none of their target audience knows better and none of the people pushing these lies care, nobody but the people who already don't buy WotC's products will know or care.

  Didn't they erase Eilistraee and the other drow deities in late 3E? So WotC is claiming to solve the problem they themselves created? :)

Pretty much. What's weirder is that they added back Eilistraee in 5e, made her organized play-legal, she's an option in BG3, but for some reason are disregarding her for the new lore.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 10:06:52 PM by Namie »

PSIandCO

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2022, 10:28:12 PM »
Ya know what? I think I'd rather prefer ALL elves to be "Drow", as described by Ruprecht + Visionstorm.

Trapped deep underground, As dark as the caverns they live in, as evil as a matriarchal theocracy, as evil as their cannibal goddess.
I kind of despise "tolkien elves" who are just Immortaler, sexier, wiser, stronger, Nobler, honester, better, smarter, magicaler, perfecter-than-anyone...


PSIandCO

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2022, 10:35:47 PM »
Greenwood also explained that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun survived, thanks to a plan with Mystra.

typical Greenwood, gotta drop in a "Douche ex MacGuffin"
Level 40 wizard with a greenstone ammulet giving him 25 wisdom (just because) has the spirit of mystra shoved up his arse, asks a bunch of level 5 Player characters to go on a quest...
Level 40 wizard shows up to save the day, answer all the riddles, solve all the puzzles, disable all the traps, and defeats all of the bosses solo...
and
Players be like,  ::) :- :'( >:( >:( >:(

"So why did you ask us to help?"

Spinachcat

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2022, 12:17:10 AM »
I started on Palladium Books, and my limited first experience with D&D just made me like Palladium more and avoid D&D.  I just liked the logical Strike/Parry/Dodge system more than D&D Attack/Armor Class/Hit Point system.

Palladium Fantasy 1e is the best OSR game!

It's really amazingly good at the table.
 

Money trumps all, so vote with your wallet.  Buy somebody else’s products.

You may be the 564th weird guy on this forum, but you speak the truth.

Vote with your wallet AND your time. AKA, only run games you support.

Namie

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2022, 12:17:34 AM »
Greenwood also explained that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun survived, thanks to a plan with Mystra.

typical Greenwood, gotta drop in a "Douche ex MacGuffin"
Level 40 wizard with a greenstone ammulet giving him 25 wisdom (just because) has the spirit of mystra shoved up his arse, asks a bunch of level 5 Player characters to go on a quest...
Level 40 wizard shows up to save the day, answer all the riddles, solve all the puzzles, disable all the traps, and defeats all of the bosses solo...
and
Players be like,  ::) :- :'( >:( >:( >:(

"So why did you ask us to help?"

He didn't go for the lv 40 wizard thing this time, it was just about Mystra securing the survival of a close ally back in the 1370s DR. Don't get me wrong, the endless chain of huge shakeups in FR is pretty much cheap cheese on top of cheap cheese, but Greenwood's explanation made more sense than the novels themselves (which were a cesspool of nonsensical plot points and intentional mischaracterization of the lore and characters involved, especially Eilistraee).

Spinachcat

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2022, 12:25:30 AM »
Warhammer's Dark Elves > D&D Drow

Harlequins for the win.

Omega

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2022, 01:41:07 AM »
The more Elves the better in my opinion.

Now we can have Drow, Snow Drow and Wood Drow.

Yeah. What I get from the article is that the cult of Lolth drow are unchanged.

This comes down to how one wants monocultural races. I feel like in a setting which is a region of only a smattering of countries like Harn or the on-screen parts of Middle Earth, then monocultural races aren't a big deal. Humans are mostly monocultural as well. But if one has a full Earth-sized globe with radically different human cultures - or a multiverse of many worlds - then monocultural races don't fit well.

I think having options for different cultures of elves is a good thing. When a game world spans everything from arctic tundra to teeming rainforest, I think it's nice to have the option that the elves on opposite sides of the world have varying culture instead of all having the same language, customs, and religion.

Why am I not surprized to find you arguing for good monsters?

And acting as of this neeeeever eeeeeeever was a thing in D&D before. Nope. Not at all.

Skullking

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2022, 04:38:23 AM »
Screw the Realms. The only Drow worth their salt are from Greyhawk and created by Gary Gygax. No Drizzt, no Eilistraee - just Lolth (and Elder Elemental Eye - not Ghaunadaur) worshipping goodness  ;D

Those were the days. 

Rhymer88

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2022, 05:14:40 AM »
Buy the older, better written stuff, or switch to another game system. 

I’m not a D&D guy.  I started on Palladium Books, and my limited first experience with D&D just made me like Palladium more and avoid D&D.  I just liked the logical Strike/Parry/Dodge system more than D&D Attack/Armor Class/Hit Point system. 

At the very least, house rule your own game to be that way you want it.  Hell, players have done this from the beginning. 

I’ll play old school D&D in the form of OSR games.  I even think RPG Pundit’s Star Adventurer is the best Star Wars game available.

Money trumps all, so vote with your wallet.  Buy somebody else’s products.

I fully agree. I stopped buying WotC's stuff some years ago, so I don't really care what they do with the drow or any other creatures.

Thorn Drumheller

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2022, 06:07:31 PM »
Screw the Realms. The only Drow worth their salt are from Greyhawk and created by Gary Gygax. No Drizzt, no Eilistraee - just Lolth (and Elder Elemental Eye - not Ghaunadaur) worshipping goodness  ;D

Those were the days.

I found this quote by Gary Gygax on Dragonsfoot.....and it says it all

"The drow were actually created to be the dominant human-like race in the vast subterranean world. What little I know about how they have been treated by other authors since then is not at all palatable to me. The drow are purely malign by temperment, as hateful as wolverines, as opportunistic as hyneas. They have absolutely no angst, save when facing an immediate threat from a more powerful drow or demon." `Gary Gygax
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Omega

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2022, 06:44:33 PM »
Screw the Realms. The only Drow worth their salt are from Greyhawk and created by Gary Gygax. No Drizzt, no Eilistraee - just Lolth (and Elder Elemental Eye - not Ghaunadaur) worshipping goodness  ;D

Those were the days.

I found this quote by Gary Gygax on Dragonsfoot.....and it says it all

"The drow were actually created to be the dominant human-like race in the vast subterranean world. What little I know about how they have been treated by other authors since then is not at all palatable to me. The drow are purely malign by temperment, as hateful as wolverines, as opportunistic as hyneas. They have absolutely no angst, save when facing an immediate threat from a more powerful drow or demon." `Gary Gygax

So the Badders in Gamma World are really displaced Drow? Makes perfect sense.  8)

jhkim

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2022, 10:27:13 PM »
Screw the Realms. The only Drow worth their salt are from Greyhawk and created by Gary Gygax. No Drizzt, no Eilistraee - just Lolth (and Elder Elemental Eye - not Ghaunadaur) worshipping goodness  ;D

Those were the days.

I found this quote by Gary Gygax on Dragonsfoot.....and it says it all

"The drow were actually created to be the dominant human-like race in the vast subterranean world. What little I know about how they have been treated by other authors since then is not at all palatable to me. The drow are purely malign by temperment, as hateful as wolverines, as opportunistic as hyneas. They have absolutely no angst, save when facing an immediate threat from a more powerful drow or demon." `Gary Gygax

Except Gary Gygax released Unearthed Arcana in 1985, which has drow as an official race for players - and drow characters could be of good alignment and non-Lolth-worshipping. He might not have liked Drizzt, but it's a character type he clearly allowed for.

Thorn Drumheller

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2022, 11:01:24 PM »
Except Gary Gygax released Unearthed Arcana in 1985, which has drow as an official race for players - and drow characters could be of good alignment and non-Lolth-worshipping. He might not have liked Drizzt, but it's a character type he clearly allowed for.

Oh, I'll grant you that. No arguments. That's one of the things about the UA Cavalier; drow could be one. I always thought that cool.

I'm not going to tell anyone how to run drow in their game, but the way I choose to interpret that quote is, as a whole, that's the way the dark elves act. There is room for the Drizzt or worshipers of Elistraee (however you spell it). But they're rare.
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