This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
NOTICE: Some online security services are reporting that information for a limited number of users from this site is for sale on the "dark web." As of right now, there is no direct evidence of this, but change your password just to be safe.

Author Topic: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow  (Read 2906 times)

rytrasmi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2022, 02:39:41 PM »
All monsters are good on the inside. If you can't see that you're a bigot.

Indeed... Even those warped chaos monsters from WFRP. I know they ate my grandmother's face off and now wear her skin.

But they are not evil just misunderstood.
Wearing human skin is a long-standing cultural practice. You cannot possibly understand the significance of this ritual without having lived experience in The Warp. Besides, your grandmother was probably a colonialist.
This post is opinion and if it sounds like something more you are misreading it or perhaps I'm just a jerk. Q.E.D.

Ghostmaker

  • Chlorine trifluoride
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3260
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2022, 02:56:28 PM »
Thanks, I hate it.

They have completely wrecked the whole point of Drizzt. Way to fucking go, WotC. I would rather deal with a thousand badly-designed original content donut steel knockoffs than this shit.


Pat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 5038
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2022, 03:14:02 PM »
Thanks, I hate it.

They have completely wrecked the whole point of Drizzt. Way to fucking go, WotC. I would rather deal with a thousand badly-designed original content donut steel knockoffs than this shit.
To be fair, they'd wrecked the entire point of Drizzt by the early 1990s.

Hzilong

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2022, 03:17:17 PM »
Thanks, I hate it.

They have completely wrecked the whole point of Drizzt. Way to fucking go, WotC. I would rather deal with a thousand badly-designed original content donut steel knockoffs than this shit.

Not only Drizzt, but there was that whole storyline of Eilistraee rebelling against Lolth. If there are widespread “good Drow” then Eilistraee looks kinda like an idiot for not allying with them. The point is that Lolth massively outguns and outnumbers Eilistraee’s followers. The fact that they fight on anyway despite this power difference is what makes them heroic.
Resident lurking Chinaman

Rob Necronomicon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 829
  • Blee
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2022, 03:23:59 PM »
your grandmother was probably a colonialist.

Hm... I'm not sure. But if one is a woke scold might as well kill her just to be on the safe side. Can't be too careful! ;)

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

VisionStorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1526
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2022, 03:48:24 PM »
Quote
...in celebration of the Legend of Drizzt, WotC is revamping much of the lore surrounding the “dark elves”

...and making everything that made Drizzt a hero worthy of celebration completely moot.

Quote
...a deep-voiced reimagining of Drizzt’s origin story, voiced by none other than popular Sherlock actor Benedict Cumberbatch."

InB4 people start complaining that this is being voiced by a white guy.

Quote
Now you might be wondering, why now? Perhaps because Wizards of the Coast is trying to reckon with their forty-odd year history and the implications that all drow are evil just because, or even that all drow follow Lolth and are all on board with being evil, with the “lone exception” of Drizzt, aka the Model Minority.

Then WotC is several decades too late, cuz the idea of non-evil drow has already been covered in other TSR era products before WotC came along, with the worship of Eilistrae and details for playing non-evil drow (or even non-evil members of other "evil" races) that have existed since the onset. Somehow I was able to play a "good" Eilistrae worshipping drow almost 30 years ago without WotC ever getting involved. I even played versions of her in NWN servers and the only thing people ever gave me crap about what that she has chocolate-brown skin and "Dark Elves are supposed to be Smurfs not Brownies". But none among the hardcore RP/canon-minded crowd ever questioned the presence of an Eilistrae worshipping good drow.

Besides, the entire reason that Drizzt shines is precisely BECAUSE he's the exception (not the "lone" exception, just the most famous one), which would all be undone now.

Quote
I hope that this is just the first step, and that the days of “all evil” races are gone."

The days of “all evil” races practically never existed, since there have always been exceptions to almost everything, except magical creatured creates to be inherently evil, which excludes practically every intelligent race.

The more Elves the better in my opinion.

Now we can have Drow, Snow Drow and Wood Drow.

Yeah. What I get from the article is that the cult of Lolth drow are unchanged.

Except that the "cult of Lolth" was the norm, and now it's being reframed as the exception and relegated just to Menzoberranzan, like it never existed outside of it and people never had reason to fear the drow were it not for that place.

This comes down to how one wants monocultural races. I feel like in a setting which is a region of only a smattering of countries like Harn or the on-screen parts of Middle Earth, then monocultural races aren't a big deal. Humans are mostly monocultural as well. But if one has a full Earth-sized globe with radically different human cultures - or a multiverse of many worlds - then monocultural races don't fit well.

I think having options for different cultures of elves is a good thing. When a game world spans everything from arctic tundra to teeming rainforest, I think it's nice to have the option that the elves on opposite sides of the world have varying culture instead of all having the same language, customs, and religion.

Races have never been monocultural in D&D. Even to the extent that you might claim that the distinctions were weak or not well developed, they were always specified nonetheless. Drows even had mentions of multiple cities with worship of other gods within the Realms since decades ago. This is an imaginary problem (in multiple levels, since it's also based on inserting racist associations that were never there and getting offended about FICTIONAL racism even if it was) based on a false framing of what things were actually like.

VisionStorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1526
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2022, 03:54:03 PM »
Thanks, I hate it.

They have completely wrecked the whole point of Drizzt. Way to fucking go, WotC. I would rather deal with a thousand badly-designed original content donut steel knockoffs than this shit.

Not only Drizzt, but there was that whole storyline of Eilistraee rebelling against Lolth. If there are widespread “good Drow” then Eilistraee looks kinda like an idiot for not allying with them. The point is that Lolth massively outguns and outnumbers Eilistraee’s followers. The fact that they fight on anyway despite this power difference is what makes them heroic.

They needed to erase Eilistraee to drive the fictitious point home that drow were always "all evil" and that this is wrong. And since none of their target audience knows better and none of the people pushing these lies care, nobody but the people who already don't buy WotC's products will know or care.

Armchair Gamer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • A
  • Posts: 2602
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2022, 04:06:31 PM »
They needed to erase Eilistraee to drive the fictitious point home that drow were always "all evil" and that this is wrong. And since none of their target audience knows better and none of the people pushing these lies care, nobody but the people who already don't buy WotC's products will know or care.

  Didn't they erase Eilistraee and the other drow deities in late 3E? So WotC is claiming to solve the problem they themselves created? :)

Almost_Useless

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • A
  • Posts: 136
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2022, 05:48:15 PM »
While I think this is all BS, it looks like this is from May of 2021.  Did something new happen?

Palleon

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • P
  • Posts: 77
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2022, 06:03:53 PM »
WotC has shown no interest in previous lore ever.  If this stuff upsets you, stick with your preferred edition.  You don’t need to give them your money or play with current edition players.

Shasarak

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3927
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2022, 07:54:44 PM »
Races have never been monocultural in D&D. Even to the extent that you might claim that the distinctions were weak or not well developed, they were always specified nonetheless. Drows even had mentions of multiple cities with worship of other gods within the Realms since decades ago. This is an imaginary problem (in multiple levels, since it's also based on inserting racist associations that were never there and getting offended about FICTIONAL racism even if it was) based on a false framing of what things were actually like.

Mulitple cities ironically detailed in Drizzt Dourdens Guide to the Underdark.
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Ruprecht

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
    • Ruprecht's RPG blog
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2022, 08:10:00 PM »
They should have made Drow like Elf racists, imperialists, racists. Give them Orange skin but have them commonly go in blackface for religious reasons. Make them evil again in a way the left can appreciate.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing. ~Robert E. Howard

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9905
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2022, 08:34:01 PM »
Yeah. What I get from the article is that the cult of Lolth drow are unchanged.

Except that the "cult of Lolth" was the norm, and now it's being reframed as the exception and relegated just to Menzoberranzan, like it never existed outside of it and people never had reason to fear the drow were it not for that place.

The article from the OP states that the cult of Lolth have a stronghold at Menzoberranzan, but it doesn't say that they don't exist at all outside the city. It doesn't look like it is contradicting with, say, Out of the Abyss and other lore. The cult of Lolth can be widespread, but they have a central stronghold and they don't extend everywhere, like the arctic or jungles.

This comes down to how one wants monocultural races. I feel like in a setting which is a region of only a smattering of countries like Harn or the on-screen parts of Middle Earth, then monocultural races aren't a big deal. Humans are mostly monocultural as well. But if one has a full Earth-sized globe with radically different human cultures - or a multiverse of many worlds - then monocultural races don't fit well.

I think having options for different cultures of elves is a good thing. When a game world spans everything from arctic tundra to teeming rainforest, I think it's nice to have the option that the elves on opposite sides of the world have varying culture instead of all having the same language, customs, and religion.

Races have never been monocultural in D&D. Even to the extent that you might claim that the distinctions were weak or not well developed, they were always specified nonetheless. Drows even had mentions of multiple cities with worship of other gods within the Realms since decades ago. This is an imaginary problem (in multiple levels, since it's also based on inserting racist associations that were never there and getting offended about FICTIONAL racism even if it was) based on a false framing of what things were actually like.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm not claiming that existing D&D races are always monocultural. My initial statement is about fantasy settings in general - hence my mention of Harn, for example, which is a non-D&D setting. I was criticizing the view that drow *should* be a monoculture, such that having different varieties of drow is ruining them.

I agree that there have always been varying drow, especially since Unearthed Arcana was released in 1985 and made drow an official player character race. There are many cases of non-evil and/or non-Lolth-worshipping drow.

PSIandCO

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • P
  • Posts: 82
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2022, 08:58:04 PM »
Didn't they erase Eilistraee and the other drow deities in late 3E? So WotC is claiming to solve the problem they themselves created? :)

Elaine cunningham books? I dunno... Lolth Ate her hubby, her daughter ate the boy, Lolth ate her daughter.
...and no, not in the fun sex colloquial way. Gobbled them all up. DEAD DEAD DEAD. Nom-nom-nom... ^^

There is supposed to be no good drow at all. Every last one is created to serve Lolth or "be her meat" (Sacrificed).
Way back in the 1990's I was invited by a DM to play in a menzobarazan boxed set campaign.
I didn't know the DM so I tested him:
"Can I play a Psionicist Drow?" Answer: No. because that house was thrown down into a volcanic fissure that, just so happened to open right underneath them...
Okay, he passed that test.
"Can I play a female drow priestess of elistrae who openly professes her faith in downtown Menzo-b?"
DM, "Yes, but in the first session of play, you'd be captured... tortured... and then sacrificed for Lolth's amusement."
And he passed that test.
I joined that game. It was brutal. UNFORGIVING. It made a Navy seal cry. I did get sacrificed in the end.

Turned out, the GM viewed Lolth as the COMPUTER from the PARANOIA rpg.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 08:59:40 PM by PSIandCO »

VisionStorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1526
Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2022, 08:58:56 PM »
They needed to erase Eilistraee to drive the fictitious point home that drow were always "all evil" and that this is wrong. And since none of their target audience knows better and none of the people pushing these lies care, nobody but the people who already don't buy WotC's products will know or care.

  Didn't they erase Eilistraee and the other drow deities in late 3E? So WotC is claiming to solve the problem they themselves created? :)

Yeah, they killed her off at some point, but I wasn't following much D&D lore at the time so I don't recall the details. In my headcanon she never died.

Races have never been monocultural in D&D. Even to the extent that you might claim that the distinctions were weak or not well developed, they were always specified nonetheless. Drows even had mentions of multiple cities with worship of other gods within the Realms since decades ago. This is an imaginary problem (in multiple levels, since it's also based on inserting racist associations that were never there and getting offended about FICTIONAL racism even if it was) based on a false framing of what things were actually like.

Mulitple cities ironically detailed in Drizzt Dourdens Guide to the Underdark.

That was a different Drizzt. The one who actually lived through the lore. This one's the new kid's Drizzt. The one who rewrites history.

They should have made Drow like Elf racists, imperialists, racists. Give them Orange skin but have them commonly go in blackface for religious reasons. Make them evil again in a way the left can appreciate.

They did. Drow were literally racist imperialists, who got cursed with blackface for religious reasons (siding Lolth in the war between her and Corellon). They are only a "minority" in the sense that their numbers are technically lower than humans, same as other races. But they were never a "marginalized" group in the woke sense, but rather the complete opposite: a raced of privileged oppressors, who are more beautiful, powerful and rich than many other races, and are racial supremacists who seek to enslave and exploit others, who they consider inferior.

The reason these cretins associate them with being an oppressed "minority" is cuz they're black, and these people are incapable of seeing pass superficial characteristics. But they're the complete diametric opposite of an oppressed group, they're basically elf Nazis with spider emblems instead of swastikas.