TheRPGSite

We all saw it comming, well it's here. WotC is ruining the Drow to please all of the people who HATE D&D.

https://archive.is/qnvuD (https://archive.is/qnvuD)

Lorendrow sounds like a cheap beer.

---

Wait, wasn't the point that the Drow were corrupted elves in the first place? Now we have corrupted Drow, which just adds a step to appease the "progressive" gamers.  ???

QuoteYou might also travel far to the south, where the genteel Lorendrow, or "Greenshadow Elves" live a life of the kind of environmental harmony that would give a Republican a coronary.

QuoteBut with this move to a more broad, diverse perspective of drow, we're getting an idea of what a more inclusive future of Dungeons & Dragons could be like, and honestly, it's about time.

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/001/313/DERP.jpg)

Well, since my D&D books are hard copies from before their major wokification efforts; I guess I'll never notice?  Although, it sucks that they have to try to ruin everything about D&D.  It's as if they want to redefine Everything!!!  Or perhaps, they just want to tear down Everything?  They will never be happy.

The more Elves the better in my opinion.

Now we can have Drow, Snow Drow and Wood Drow.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 14, 2022, 12:36:08 AM
We all saw it comming, well it's here. WotC is ruining the Drow to please all of the people who HATE D&D.

https://archive.is/qnvuD (https://archive.is/qnvuD)

But anything that's a dark color is now waaaacist.

They are also getting rid of everything that's too dark like the night, dark shadows, dungeons, and the dark parts of panda bears. Because if it is 'too dark' that could potentially be seen as 'insensitive' to black folks.

Buy the older, better written stuff, or switch to another game system. 

I'm not a D&D guy.  I started on Palladium Books, and my limited first experience with D&D just made me like Palladium more and avoid D&D.  I just liked the logical Strike/Parry/Dodge system more than D&D Attack/Armor Class/Hit Point system. 

At the very least, house rule your own game to be that way you want it.  Hell, players have done this from the beginning. 

I'll play old school D&D in the form of OSR games.  I even think RPG Pundit's Star Adventurer is the best Star Wars game available.

Money trumps all, so vote with your wallet.  Buy somebody else's products. 

I don't care that much since I pretty much just play OSR/retroclone games but I decided years ago to simply never buy another WOTC product, whether it's something new or even a reprint from DM's Guild.  I've got all my old TSR books, which is all I need if I want to play actual D&D.

More "Reduce everything to a gray meaningless mush" by Wotc.
Why is it so hard for woke people to accept reality?
Some cultures are better than others. Some environments are better than others. Some religions are better than others.
D&D has "RACES" for crying out loud! RACES with different ability score adjustments, movement rates, magical aptitudes, etc.
is it RACIST to be a drow? A people whose lowest ability scores were once all 15!

They really are trying to destroy what D&D was.
The Drow were one of the deadliest foes to have in all the realms.
They were brutal. Their hearts had no room for mercy. Their goddess did not allow weakness.
Somehow, they bred constantly enough to make up for all of the infighting, backstabbing, and assassination...
Their society was a virtual meat grinder.
You lived in constant TERROR or turned your fear into a need to dominate others.
They were EVIL. They practiced slavery, ritual sacrifice, and more all in service to a DEMON-GODDESSS.

I guess they pondered the philosophy questions too much:
what would an evil society be like? would it survive for long?
what would a chaotic society be like? how could it stand?
Could there ever be such a thing?
Would serving a Chaotic evil society as a chaotic evil person, be from their view..? lawful good?
Would that make rebels like D'rzzt, into CHAOTIC EVIL from the drow society point of view?

and the rabbit hole just keeps on going...

Quote from: Persimmon on May 14, 2022, 10:41:49 AM
I don't care that much since I pretty much just play OSR/retroclone games but I decided years ago to simply never buy another WOTC product, whether it's something new or even a reprint from DM's Guild.  I've got all my old TSR books, which is all I need if I want to play actual D&D.

Yep... OSR only.

I remember one drow spy was hit with a "reduce person" or something that made him 8 inches tall.
This drow spy returned to report that he had failed in his mission...
The Drow priestess scooped him up and tossed him out in front of a (to keep the slaves in line) Patrol mounted on giant Lizards.
The lead lizard flicked out it's sticky tongue and swallowed the drow spy whole.

This lizard died when the spell wore off as the body was too big for the lizzard's digestive tract.
The dead spy was very, very, very, dead+1/2 digested.

The drow who discovered the dead spy responded to the gruesome display, by laughing and praising lolth.

This is why I'm writing a scifi setting where the space elves are a satire of leftists. They're so environmentalist that they ban client states from making spears and force them to live on handouts (food, shelter, medicine). Meanwhile the space elves live in dyson spheres with virtual reality.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 14, 2022, 05:30:41 AM
The more Elves the better in my opinion.

Now we can have Drow, Snow Drow and Wood Drow.

Yeah. What I get from the article is that the cult of Lolth drow are unchanged.

This comes down to how one wants monocultural races. I feel like in a setting which is a region of only a smattering of countries like Harn or the on-screen parts of Middle Earth, then monocultural races aren't a big deal. Humans are mostly monocultural as well. But if one has a full Earth-sized globe with radically different human cultures - or a multiverse of many worlds - then monocultural races don't fit well.

I think having options for different cultures of elves is a good thing. When a game world spans everything from arctic tundra to teeming rainforest, I think it's nice to have the option that the elves on opposite sides of the world have varying culture instead of all having the same language, customs, and religion.

All monsters are good on the inside. If you can't see that you're a bigot.

Instances of alleged violence involving monsters are overblown or there was good reason.

Also, the term monsters is inherently biased. Please use the term "differently human" going forward.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Quote from: rytrasmi on May 14, 2022, 02:12:02 PM
All monsters are good on the inside. If you can't see that you're a bigot.

Indeed... Even those warped chaos monsters from WFRP. I know they ate my grandmother's face off and now wear her skin.

But they are not evil just misunderstood.

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2022, 01:29:34 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 14, 2022, 05:30:41 AM
The more Elves the better in my opinion.

Now we can have Drow, Snow Drow and Wood Drow.

Yeah. What I get from the article is that the cult of Lolth drow are unchanged.

This comes down to how one wants monocultural races. I feel like in a setting which is a region of only a smattering of countries like Harn or the on-screen parts of Middle Earth, then monocultural races aren't a big deal. Humans are mostly monocultural as well. But if one has a full Earth-sized globe with radically different human cultures - or a multiverse of many worlds - then monocultural races don't fit well.

I think having options for different cultures of elves is a good thing. When a game world spans everything from arctic tundra to teeming rainforest, I think it's nice to have the option that the elves on opposite sides of the world have varying culture instead of all having the same language, customs, and religion.

Why am I not surprized to find you arguing for good monsters?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 14, 2022, 02:16:17 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on May 14, 2022, 02:12:02 PM
All monsters are good on the inside. If you can't see that you're a bigot.

Indeed... Even those warped chaos monsters from WFRP. I know they ate my grandmother's face off and now wear her skin.

But they are not evil just misunderstood.

Wearing human skin is a long-standing cultural practice. You cannot possibly understand the significance of this ritual without having lived experience in The Warp. Besides, your grandmother was probably a colonialist.

Thanks, I hate it.

They have completely wrecked the whole point of Drizzt. Way to fucking go, WotC. I would rather deal with a thousand badly-designed original content donut steel knockoffs than this shit.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 14, 2022, 02:56:28 PM
Thanks, I hate it.

They have completely wrecked the whole point of Drizzt. Way to fucking go, WotC. I would rather deal with a thousand badly-designed original content donut steel knockoffs than this shit.

To be fair, they'd wrecked the entire point of Drizzt by the early 1990s.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 14, 2022, 02:56:28 PM
Thanks, I hate it.

They have completely wrecked the whole point of Drizzt. Way to fucking go, WotC. I would rather deal with a thousand badly-designed original content donut steel knockoffs than this shit.

Not only Drizzt, but there was that whole storyline of Eilistraee rebelling against Lolth. If there are widespread "good Drow" then Eilistraee looks kinda like an idiot for not allying with them. The point is that Lolth massively outguns and outnumbers Eilistraee's followers. The fact that they fight on anyway despite this power difference is what makes them heroic.

Quote from: rytrasmi on May 14, 2022, 02:39:41 PM
your grandmother was probably a colonialist.

Hm... I'm not sure. But if one is a woke scold might as well kill her just to be on the safe side. Can't be too careful! ;)

Quote...in celebration of the Legend of Drizzt, WotC is revamping much of the lore surrounding the "dark elves"

...and making everything that made Drizzt a hero worthy of celebration completely moot.

Quote...a deep-voiced reimagining of Drizzt's origin story, voiced by none other than popular Sherlock actor Benedict Cumberbatch."

InB4 people start complaining that this is being voiced by a white guy.

QuoteNow you might be wondering, why now? Perhaps because Wizards of the Coast is trying to reckon with their forty-odd year history and the implications that all drow are evil just because, or even that all drow follow Lolth and are all on board with being evil, with the "lone exception" of Drizzt, aka the Model Minority.

Then WotC is several decades too late, cuz the idea of non-evil drow has already been covered in other TSR era products before WotC came along, with the worship of Eilistrae and details for playing non-evil drow (or even non-evil members of other "evil" races) that have existed since the onset. Somehow I was able to play a "good" Eilistrae worshipping drow almost 30 years ago without WotC ever getting involved. I even played versions of her in NWN servers and the only thing people ever gave me crap about what that she has chocolate-brown skin and "Dark Elves are supposed to be Smurfs not Brownies". But none among the hardcore RP/canon-minded crowd ever questioned the presence of an Eilistrae worshipping good drow.

Besides, the entire reason that Drizzt shines is precisely BECAUSE he's the exception (not the "lone" exception, just the most famous one), which would all be undone now.

QuoteI hope that this is just the first step, and that the days of "all evil" races are gone."

The days of "all evil" races practically never existed, since there have always been exceptions to almost everything, except magical creatured creates to be inherently evil, which excludes practically every intelligent race.

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2022, 01:29:34 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 14, 2022, 05:30:41 AM
The more Elves the better in my opinion.

Now we can have Drow, Snow Drow and Wood Drow.

Yeah. What I get from the article is that the cult of Lolth drow are unchanged.

Except that the "cult of Lolth" was the norm, and now it's being reframed as the exception and relegated just to Menzoberranzan, like it never existed outside of it and people never had reason to fear the drow were it not for that place.

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2022, 01:29:34 PMThis comes down to how one wants monocultural races. I feel like in a setting which is a region of only a smattering of countries like Harn or the on-screen parts of Middle Earth, then monocultural races aren't a big deal. Humans are mostly monocultural as well. But if one has a full Earth-sized globe with radically different human cultures - or a multiverse of many worlds - then monocultural races don't fit well.

I think having options for different cultures of elves is a good thing. When a game world spans everything from arctic tundra to teeming rainforest, I think it's nice to have the option that the elves on opposite sides of the world have varying culture instead of all having the same language, customs, and religion.

Races have never been monocultural in D&D. Even to the extent that you might claim that the distinctions were weak or not well developed, they were always specified nonetheless. Drows even had mentions of multiple cities with worship of other gods within the Realms since decades ago. This is an imaginary problem (in multiple levels, since it's also based on inserting racist associations that were never there and getting offended about FICTIONAL racism even if it was) based on a false framing of what things were actually like.

Quote from: Hzilong on May 14, 2022, 03:17:17 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 14, 2022, 02:56:28 PM
Thanks, I hate it.

They have completely wrecked the whole point of Drizzt. Way to fucking go, WotC. I would rather deal with a thousand badly-designed original content donut steel knockoffs than this shit.

Not only Drizzt, but there was that whole storyline of Eilistraee rebelling against Lolth. If there are widespread "good Drow" then Eilistraee looks kinda like an idiot for not allying with them. The point is that Lolth massively outguns and outnumbers Eilistraee's followers. The fact that they fight on anyway despite this power difference is what makes them heroic.

They needed to erase Eilistraee to drive the fictitious point home that drow were always "all evil" and that this is wrong. And since none of their target audience knows better and none of the people pushing these lies care, nobody but the people who already don't buy WotC's products will know or care.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2022, 03:54:03 PM
They needed to erase Eilistraee to drive the fictitious point home that drow were always "all evil" and that this is wrong. And since none of their target audience knows better and none of the people pushing these lies care, nobody but the people who already don't buy WotC's products will know or care.

  Didn't they erase Eilistraee and the other drow deities in late 3E? So WotC is claiming to solve the problem they themselves created? :)

While I think this is all BS, it looks like this is from May of 2021.  Did something new happen?

WotC has shown no interest in previous lore ever.  If this stuff upsets you, stick with your preferred edition.  You don't need to give them your money or play with current edition players.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2022, 03:48:24 PM
Races have never been monocultural in D&D. Even to the extent that you might claim that the distinctions were weak or not well developed, they were always specified nonetheless. Drows even had mentions of multiple cities with worship of other gods within the Realms since decades ago. This is an imaginary problem (in multiple levels, since it's also based on inserting racist associations that were never there and getting offended about FICTIONAL racism even if it was) based on a false framing of what things were actually like.

Mulitple cities ironically detailed in Drizzt Dourdens Guide to the Underdark.

They should have made Drow like Elf racists, imperialists, racists. Give them Orange skin but have them commonly go in blackface for religious reasons. Make them evil again in a way the left can appreciate.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2022, 03:48:24 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2022, 01:29:34 PM
Yeah. What I get from the article is that the cult of Lolth drow are unchanged.

Except that the "cult of Lolth" was the norm, and now it's being reframed as the exception and relegated just to Menzoberranzan, like it never existed outside of it and people never had reason to fear the drow were it not for that place.

The article from the OP states that the cult of Lolth have a stronghold at Menzoberranzan, but it doesn't say that they don't exist at all outside the city. It doesn't look like it is contradicting with, say, Out of the Abyss and other lore. The cult of Lolth can be widespread, but they have a central stronghold and they don't extend everywhere, like the arctic or jungles.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2022, 03:48:24 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2022, 01:29:34 PMThis comes down to how one wants monocultural races. I feel like in a setting which is a region of only a smattering of countries like Harn or the on-screen parts of Middle Earth, then monocultural races aren't a big deal. Humans are mostly monocultural as well. But if one has a full Earth-sized globe with radically different human cultures - or a multiverse of many worlds - then monocultural races don't fit well.

I think having options for different cultures of elves is a good thing. When a game world spans everything from arctic tundra to teeming rainforest, I think it's nice to have the option that the elves on opposite sides of the world have varying culture instead of all having the same language, customs, and religion.

Races have never been monocultural in D&D. Even to the extent that you might claim that the distinctions were weak or not well developed, they were always specified nonetheless. Drows even had mentions of multiple cities with worship of other gods within the Realms since decades ago. This is an imaginary problem (in multiple levels, since it's also based on inserting racist associations that were never there and getting offended about FICTIONAL racism even if it was) based on a false framing of what things were actually like.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm not claiming that existing D&D races are always monocultural. My initial statement is about fantasy settings in general - hence my mention of Harn, for example, which is a non-D&D setting. I was criticizing the view that drow *should* be a monoculture, such that having different varieties of drow is ruining them.

I agree that there have always been varying drow, especially since Unearthed Arcana was released in 1985 and made drow an official player character race. There are many cases of non-evil and/or non-Lolth-worshipping drow.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2022, 04:06:31 PMDidn't they erase Eilistraee and the other drow deities in late 3E? So WotC is claiming to solve the problem they themselves created? :)

Elaine cunningham books? I dunno... Lolth Ate her hubby, her daughter ate the boy, Lolth ate her daughter.
...and no, not in the fun sex colloquial way. Gobbled them all up. DEAD DEAD DEAD. Nom-nom-nom... ^^

There is supposed to be no good drow at all. Every last one is created to serve Lolth or "be her meat" (Sacrificed).
Way back in the 1990's I was invited by a DM to play in a menzobarazan boxed set campaign.
I didn't know the DM so I tested him:
"Can I play a Psionicist Drow?" Answer: No. because that house was thrown down into a volcanic fissure that, just so happened to open right underneath them...
Okay, he passed that test.
"Can I play a female drow priestess of elistrae who openly professes her faith in downtown Menzo-b?"
DM, "Yes, but in the first session of play, you'd be captured... tortured... and then sacrificed for Lolth's amusement."
And he passed that test.
I joined that game. It was brutal. UNFORGIVING. It made a Navy seal cry. I did get sacrificed in the end.

Turned out, the GM viewed Lolth as the COMPUTER from the PARANOIA rpg.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2022, 04:06:31 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2022, 03:54:03 PM
They needed to erase Eilistraee to drive the fictitious point home that drow were always "all evil" and that this is wrong. And since none of their target audience knows better and none of the people pushing these lies care, nobody but the people who already don't buy WotC's products will know or care.

  Didn't they erase Eilistraee and the other drow deities in late 3E? So WotC is claiming to solve the problem they themselves created? :)

Yeah, they killed her off at some point, but I wasn't following much D&D lore at the time so I don't recall the details. In my headcanon she never died.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 14, 2022, 07:54:44 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2022, 03:48:24 PM
Races have never been monocultural in D&D. Even to the extent that you might claim that the distinctions were weak or not well developed, they were always specified nonetheless. Drows even had mentions of multiple cities with worship of other gods within the Realms since decades ago. This is an imaginary problem (in multiple levels, since it's also based on inserting racist associations that were never there and getting offended about FICTIONAL racism even if it was) based on a false framing of what things were actually like.

Mulitple cities ironically detailed in Drizzt Dourdens Guide to the Underdark.

That was a different Drizzt. The one who actually lived through the lore. This one's the new kid's Drizzt. The one who rewrites history.

Quote from: Ruprecht on May 14, 2022, 08:10:00 PM
They should have made Drow like Elf racists, imperialists, racists. Give them Orange skin but have them commonly go in blackface for religious reasons. Make them evil again in a way the left can appreciate.

They did. Drow were literally racist imperialists, who got cursed with blackface for religious reasons (siding Lolth in the war between her and Corellon). They are only a "minority" in the sense that their numbers are technically lower than humans, same as other races. But they were never a "marginalized" group in the woke sense, but rather the complete opposite: a raced of privileged oppressors, who are more beautiful, powerful and rich than many other races, and are racial supremacists who seek to enslave and exploit others, who they consider inferior.

The reason these cretins associate them with being an oppressed "minority" is cuz they're black, and these people are incapable of seeing pass superficial characteristics. But they're the complete diametric opposite of an oppressed group, they're basically elf Nazis with spider emblems instead of swastikas.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2022, 08:58:56 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on May 14, 2022, 08:10:00 PM
They should have made Drow like Elf racists, imperialists, racists. Give them Orange skin but have them commonly go in blackface for religious reasons. Make them evil again in a way the left can appreciate.

They did. Drow were literally racist imperialists, who got cursed with blackface for religious reasons (siding Lolth in the war between her and Corellon). They are only a "minority" in the sense that their numbers are technically lower than humans, same as other races. But they were never a "marginalized" group in the woke sense, but rather the complete opposite: a race of privileged oppressors, who are more beautiful, powerful and rich than many other races, and are racial supremacists who seek to enslave and exploit others, who they consider inferior.

The reason these cretins associate them with being an oppressed "minority" is cuz they're black, and these people are incapable of seeing pass superficial characteristics. But they're the complete diametric opposite of an oppressed group, they're basically elf Nazis with spider emblems instead of swastikas.

I voted for Trump, and I approve of monocultural evil drow regardless of skin color.
...Black people need a role model that isn't beholden to the culture created by "Democrats" and "Rap music".
Rap music... rape, murder, steal, +democrat "children without fathers is GOOD! abandon the pregnant, murder your babies, depend on the welfare state"...

oh. great. black people really are drow.

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2022, 08:34:01 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2022, 03:48:24 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2022, 01:29:34 PM
Yeah. What I get from the article is that the cult of Lolth drow are unchanged.

Except that the "cult of Lolth" was the norm, and now it's being reframed as the exception and relegated just to Menzoberranzan, like it never existed outside of it and people never had reason to fear the drow were it not for that place.

The article from the OP states that the cult of Lolth have a stronghold at Menzoberranzan, but it doesn't say that they don't exist at all outside the city. It doesn't look like it is contradicting with, say, Out of the Abyss and other lore. The cult of Lolth can be widespread, but they have a central stronghold and they don't extend everywhere, like the arctic or jungles.

It might not say that Loth worshipers don't exist outside the city, but it implies that Loth worship isn't the norm by framing it as being ""corrupted" by Lolth's teachings". As if the original drow back when the race got split off from other elves weren't willing followers of Lolth, and it wasn't till later that worship of other gods emerged.

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2022, 08:34:01 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2022, 03:48:24 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2022, 01:29:34 PMThis comes down to how one wants monocultural races. I feel like in a setting which is a region of only a smattering of countries like Harn or the on-screen parts of Middle Earth, then monocultural races aren't a big deal. Humans are mostly monocultural as well. But if one has a full Earth-sized globe with radically different human cultures - or a multiverse of many worlds - then monocultural races don't fit well.

I think having options for different cultures of elves is a good thing. When a game world spans everything from arctic tundra to teeming rainforest, I think it's nice to have the option that the elves on opposite sides of the world have varying culture instead of all having the same language, customs, and religion.

Races have never been monocultural in D&D. Even to the extent that you might claim that the distinctions were weak or not well developed, they were always specified nonetheless. Drows even had mentions of multiple cities with worship of other gods within the Realms since decades ago. This is an imaginary problem (in multiple levels, since it's also based on inserting racist associations that were never there and getting offended about FICTIONAL racism even if it was) based on a false framing of what things were actually like.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm not claiming that existing D&D races are always monocultural. My initial statement is about fantasy settings in general - hence my mention of Harn, for example, which is a non-D&D setting. I was criticizing the view that drow *should* be a monoculture, such that having different varieties of drow is ruining them.

I agree that there have always been varying drow, especially since Unearthed Arcana was released in 1985 and made drow an official player character race. There are many cases of non-evil and/or non-Lolth-worshipping drow.

Fair enough.

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 14, 2022, 08:58:04 PM

Elaine cunningham books? I dunno... Lolth Ate her hubby, her daughter ate the boy, Lolth ate her daughter.
...and no, not in the fun sex colloquial way. Gobbled them all up. DEAD DEAD DEAD. Nom-nom-nom... ^^

Things didn't really go like that (no one ate anyone). Greenwood also explained that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun survived, thanks to a plan with Mystra. The notes in this article explains the cooperation with Mystra better: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eilistraee#cite_note-90
WotC did restore them in 5e (WotC erased those books, it's as if those were never written), but they proceeded to kinda disregard Eilistraee and all the other deities in the new drow lore.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2022, 04:06:31 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 14, 2022, 03:54:03 PM
They needed to erase Eilistraee to drive the fictitious point home that drow were always "all evil" and that this is wrong. And since none of their target audience knows better and none of the people pushing these lies care, nobody but the people who already don't buy WotC's products will know or care.

  Didn't they erase Eilistraee and the other drow deities in late 3E? So WotC is claiming to solve the problem they themselves created? :)

Pretty much. What's weirder is that they added back Eilistraee in 5e, made her organized play-legal, she's an option in BG3, but for some reason are disregarding her for the new lore.

Ya know what? I think I'd rather prefer ALL elves to be "Drow", as described by Ruprecht + Visionstorm.

Trapped deep underground, As dark as the caverns they live in, as evil as a matriarchal theocracy, as evil as their cannibal goddess.
I kind of despise "tolkien elves" who are just Immortaler, sexier, wiser, stronger, Nobler, honester, better, smarter, magicaler, perfecter-than-anyone...

Quote from: Namie on May 14, 2022, 10:01:58 PMGreenwood also explained that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun survived, thanks to a plan with Mystra.

typical Greenwood, gotta drop in a "Douche ex MacGuffin"
Level 40 wizard with a greenstone ammulet giving him 25 wisdom (just because) has the spirit of mystra shoved up his arse, asks a bunch of level 5 Player characters to go on a quest...
Level 40 wizard shows up to save the day, answer all the riddles, solve all the puzzles, disable all the traps, and defeats all of the bosses solo...
and
Players be like,  ::) :-\ :'( >:( >:( >:(

"So why did you ask us to help?"

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 14, 2022, 10:34:47 AM
I started on Palladium Books, and my limited first experience with D&D just made me like Palladium more and avoid D&D.  I just liked the logical Strike/Parry/Dodge system more than D&D Attack/Armor Class/Hit Point system.

Palladium Fantasy 1e is the best OSR game!

It's really amazingly good at the table.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 14, 2022, 10:34:47 AM
Money trumps all, so vote with your wallet.  Buy somebody else's products.

You may be the 564th weird guy on this forum, but you speak the truth.

Vote with your wallet AND your time. AKA, only run games you support.

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 14, 2022, 10:35:47 PM

Quote from: Namie on May 14, 2022, 10:01:58 PMGreenwood also explained that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun survived, thanks to a plan with Mystra.

typical Greenwood, gotta drop in a "Douche ex MacGuffin"
Level 40 wizard with a greenstone ammulet giving him 25 wisdom (just because) has the spirit of mystra shoved up his arse, asks a bunch of level 5 Player characters to go on a quest...
Level 40 wizard shows up to save the day, answer all the riddles, solve all the puzzles, disable all the traps, and defeats all of the bosses solo...
and
Players be like,  ::) :-\ :'( >:( >:( >:(

"So why did you ask us to help?"

He didn't go for the lv 40 wizard thing this time, it was just about Mystra securing the survival of a close ally back in the 1370s DR. Don't get me wrong, the endless chain of huge shakeups in FR is pretty much cheap cheese on top of cheap cheese, but Greenwood's explanation made more sense than the novels themselves (which were a cesspool of nonsensical plot points and intentional mischaracterization of the lore and characters involved, especially Eilistraee).

Warhammer's Dark Elves > D&D Drow

Harlequins for the win.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 14, 2022, 02:24:26 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2022, 01:29:34 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 14, 2022, 05:30:41 AM
The more Elves the better in my opinion.

Now we can have Drow, Snow Drow and Wood Drow.

Yeah. What I get from the article is that the cult of Lolth drow are unchanged.

This comes down to how one wants monocultural races. I feel like in a setting which is a region of only a smattering of countries like Harn or the on-screen parts of Middle Earth, then monocultural races aren't a big deal. Humans are mostly monocultural as well. But if one has a full Earth-sized globe with radically different human cultures - or a multiverse of many worlds - then monocultural races don't fit well.

I think having options for different cultures of elves is a good thing. When a game world spans everything from arctic tundra to teeming rainforest, I think it's nice to have the option that the elves on opposite sides of the world have varying culture instead of all having the same language, customs, and religion.

Why am I not surprized to find you arguing for good monsters?

And acting as of this neeeeever eeeeeeever was a thing in D&D before. Nope. Not at all.

Screw the Realms. The only Drow worth their salt are from Greyhawk and created by Gary Gygax. No Drizzt, no Eilistraee - just Lolth (and Elder Elemental Eye - not Ghaunadaur) worshipping goodness  ;D

Those were the days. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 14, 2022, 10:34:47 AM
Buy the older, better written stuff, or switch to another game system. 

I'm not a D&D guy.  I started on Palladium Books, and my limited first experience with D&D just made me like Palladium more and avoid D&D.  I just liked the logical Strike/Parry/Dodge system more than D&D Attack/Armor Class/Hit Point system. 

At the very least, house rule your own game to be that way you want it.  Hell, players have done this from the beginning. 

I'll play old school D&D in the form of OSR games.  I even think RPG Pundit's Star Adventurer is the best Star Wars game available.

Money trumps all, so vote with your wallet.  Buy somebody else's products.

I fully agree. I stopped buying WotC's stuff some years ago, so I don't really care what they do with the drow or any other creatures.

Quote from: Skullking on May 15, 2022, 04:38:23 AM
Screw the Realms. The only Drow worth their salt are from Greyhawk and created by Gary Gygax. No Drizzt, no Eilistraee - just Lolth (and Elder Elemental Eye - not Ghaunadaur) worshipping goodness  ;D

Those were the days.

I found this quote by Gary Gygax on Dragonsfoot.....and it says it all

"The drow were actually created to be the dominant human-like race in the vast subterranean world. What little I know about how they have been treated by other authors since then is not at all palatable to me. The drow are purely malign by temperment, as hateful as wolverines, as opportunistic as hyneas. They have absolutely no angst, save when facing an immediate threat from a more powerful drow or demon." `Gary Gygax

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on May 15, 2022, 06:07:31 PM

Quote from: Skullking on May 15, 2022, 04:38:23 AM
Screw the Realms. The only Drow worth their salt are from Greyhawk and created by Gary Gygax. No Drizzt, no Eilistraee - just Lolth (and Elder Elemental Eye - not Ghaunadaur) worshipping goodness  ;D

Those were the days.

I found this quote by Gary Gygax on Dragonsfoot.....and it says it all

"The drow were actually created to be the dominant human-like race in the vast subterranean world. What little I know about how they have been treated by other authors since then is not at all palatable to me. The drow are purely malign by temperment, as hateful as wolverines, as opportunistic as hyneas. They have absolutely no angst, save when facing an immediate threat from a more powerful drow or demon." `Gary Gygax

So the Badders in Gamma World are really displaced Drow? Makes perfect sense.  8)

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on May 15, 2022, 06:07:31 PM

Quote from: Skullking on May 15, 2022, 04:38:23 AM
Screw the Realms. The only Drow worth their salt are from Greyhawk and created by Gary Gygax. No Drizzt, no Eilistraee - just Lolth (and Elder Elemental Eye - not Ghaunadaur) worshipping goodness  ;D

Those were the days.

I found this quote by Gary Gygax on Dragonsfoot.....and it says it all

"The drow were actually created to be the dominant human-like race in the vast subterranean world. What little I know about how they have been treated by other authors since then is not at all palatable to me. The drow are purely malign by temperment, as hateful as wolverines, as opportunistic as hyneas. They have absolutely no angst, save when facing an immediate threat from a more powerful drow or demon." `Gary Gygax

Except Gary Gygax released Unearthed Arcana in 1985, which has drow as an official race for players - and drow characters could be of good alignment and non-Lolth-worshipping. He might not have liked Drizzt, but it's a character type he clearly allowed for.

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2022, 10:27:13 PM
Except Gary Gygax released Unearthed Arcana in 1985, which has drow as an official race for players - and drow characters could be of good alignment and non-Lolth-worshipping. He might not have liked Drizzt, but it's a character type he clearly allowed for.

Oh, I'll grant you that. No arguments. That's one of the things about the UA Cavalier; drow could be one. I always thought that cool.

I'm not going to tell anyone how to run drow in their game, but the way I choose to interpret that quote is, as a whole, that's the way the dark elves act. There is room for the Drizzt or worshipers of Elistraee (however you spell it). But they're rare.

"Udadrow, Aevendrow, and Lorendrow"

Looks like WotC is following GW's lead in giving everything a silly sounding name that they can copywrite and trademark. The legal team is now driving the game design.


Who da Drow?  U da drow!

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2022, 10:27:13 PM
Except Gary Gygax released Unearthed Arcana in 1985, which has drow as an official race for players - and drow characters could be of good alignment and non-Lolth-worshipping. He might not have liked Drizzt, but it's a character type he clearly allowed for.

Gary famously allowed his players to play anything including a Balrog.

Many nu-Grognards choose to forget but Pepperidge farm remembers.

    Allowing one player character to be a "monster race" was not in any way contradicting the point of view GG put out about the Drow.  There is a whole section in the DMG about Monster player characters and the circumstances such a thing (especially a good or neutral one) could happen.  So it was not something that suddenly happened with UA, the option to be a normally monstrous race or creature and a PC has ALWAYS been in AD&D.   GG had issue with the later authors trying to present the drow with redeeming qualities en masse, which they really did not have.  I have also gotten the vibe that the real issue is not so much their color (they are JET black, at least back when I cared) but their very Matriarchal, very nit-pick back stabbing culture.  GG was saying something that Current Year can not abide by with Drow culture.

Greetings!

Geesus. You know, it is not an unforgivable sin to have some kind of Drow-Elf community that doesn't worship Lolth, or embraces a non-evil or even a Good alignment. Last time I checked...yes, these exceptional individuals and groups of non-evil Drow Elves have always existed, even back in the early AD&D days.

The difference is the FRAMING.

Back then, the frame was the vast majority of Drow Elves worship Lolth, are Chaotic Evil, and have a wicked and cruel matriarchal culture. Somewhere, there may be some isolated communities of Drow Elves that worship different deities, have different alignments, and have developed a different kind of culture.

Notice there isn't any references to anything being "Problematic" or other woke fucking bullshit.

This new turn of events at WOTC and retconning Drow lore and everything is yet another example of SJW's wiping their ass with traditional D&D.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 16, 2022, 07:39:34 AM
Greetings!

Geesus. You know, it is not an unforgivable sin to have some kind of Drow-Elf community that doesn't worship Lolth, or embraces a non-evil or even a Good alignment. Last time I checked...yes, these exceptional individuals and groups of non-evil Drow Elves have always existed, even back in the early AD&D days.

The difference is the FRAMING.

Back then, the frame was the vast majority of Drow Elves worship Lolth, are Chaotic Evil, and have a wicked and cruel matriarchal culture. Somewhere, there may be some isolated communities of Drow Elves that worship different deities, have different alignments, and have developed a different kind of culture.

Notice there isn't any references to anything being "Problematic" or other woke fucking bullshit.

This new turn of events at WOTC and retconning Drow lore and everything is yet another example of SJW's wiping their ass with traditional D&D.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes, SHARK, this. It's how it is being framed now. The sjdubs are framing anything "distasteful" to them to be this stupid, utopian wannabe, barista adventuring day.

That didn't make sense but what the sjdubs are doing is stupid LOL

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on May 16, 2022, 08:46:57 AM

Quote from: SHARK on May 16, 2022, 07:39:34 AM
Greetings!

Geesus. You know, it is not an unforgivable sin to have some kind of Drow-Elf community that doesn't worship Lolth, or embraces a non-evil or even a Good alignment. Last time I checked...yes, these exceptional individuals and groups of non-evil Drow Elves have always existed, even back in the early AD&D days.

The difference is the FRAMING.

Back then, the frame was the vast majority of Drow Elves worship Lolth, are Chaotic Evil, and have a wicked and cruel matriarchal culture. Somewhere, there may be some isolated communities of Drow Elves that worship different deities, have different alignments, and have developed a different kind of culture.

Notice there isn't any references to anything being "Problematic" or other woke fucking bullshit.

This new turn of events at WOTC and retconning Drow lore and everything is yet another example of SJW's wiping their ass with traditional D&D.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes, SHARK, this. It's how it is being framed now. The sjdubs are framing anything "distasteful" to them to be this stupid, utopian wannabe, barista adventuring day.

That didn't make sense but what the sjdubs are doing is stupid LOL

Greetings!

Damn straight, my friend!

I'm curious, though, what is exactly going on with this whole drive amongst WOTC--as well as others--to have utopian wannabe, "Barista Adventuring Days"? This weird obsession with sex, "Hot messes in college"; working at normal, modern jobs, gay dances, and celebrating gossip networks with faeries? It's kind of scattered, but I think my thoughts are sensing this kind of design focus and theme, alternating between sex, drama, utopianism, and an insistence on indulging in modern jobs and petty details of ordinary lives. If that makes any sense?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 14, 2022, 02:56:28 PMThey have completely wrecked the whole point of Drizzt. Way to fucking go, WotC. I would rather deal with a thousand badly-designed original content donut steel knockoffs than this shit.

I'm not so worried about Drizzt, but the Underdark itself. As it was originally created, the Underdark was a unique environment. Not because it was a cave network but because it was a vast land ruled over by a powerful race of evil elves. While you might find a temporary reprieve, you were never truly safe with the Drow roaming round. You weren't going to find a nice Drow girl and settle down like Little House on the UnderPrairie. By making Drow not evil but mostly good, you've taken the one unique thing about their homeland and turned it into just another wilderness.

Once again it's subtraction by addition.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on May 16, 2022, 09:02:43 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 14, 2022, 02:56:28 PMThey have completely wrecked the whole point of Drizzt. Way to fucking go, WotC. I would rather deal with a thousand badly-designed original content donut steel knockoffs than this shit.

I'm not so worried about Drizzt, but the Underdark itself. As it was originally created, the Underdark was a unique environment. Not because it was a cave network but because it was a vast land ruled over by a powerful race of evil elves. While you might find a temporary reprieve, you were never truly safe with the Drow roaming round. You weren't going to find a nice Drow girl and settle down like Little House on the UnderPrairie. By making Drow not evil but mostly good, you've taken the one unique thing about their homeland and turned it into just another wilderness.

Once again it's subtraction by addition.

Yup. And it cheapens Drizzt's entire character arc, as well as wreaking havoc on the non-Lolth minorities (Eilistraee, Vhaeraun) who were also fighting to get the drow out from under Lolth's thumb. Way to fucking go, WotC.

(Among the scraps I had written for a modern urban fantasy setting was that the drow who had landed in modern day were, after a short period of disorientation, overjoyed to be out from under Lolth. Not because they were any less evil, but because they no longer had to deal with a lunatic bitch of a goddess who would fuck with them for the lulz. They were still opportunistic bastards, but now they could be bastards on their own terms.)

Quote from: SHARK on May 16, 2022, 08:59:39 AMI'm curious, though, what is exactly going on with this whole drive amongst WOTC--as well as others--to have utopian wannabe, "Barista Adventuring Days"? This weird obsession with sex, "Hot messes in college"; working at normal, modern jobs, gay dances, and celebrating gossip networks with faeries? It's kind of scattered, but I think my thoughts are sensing this kind of design focus and theme, alternating between sex, drama, utopianism, and an insistence on indulging in modern jobs and petty details of ordinary lives. If that makes any sense?

This is just the logical conclusion to the idea that "representation matters". You need to see people of your own race in game. If you are disabled, you need to see people who are also disabled in game. If you are a loser millennial who has trouble adulting, you need to see loser millennials who have trouble adulting in the game as well. The whole thing has turned into an exercise in self validation.

Add this to the fact that for most D&D writers, their idea of "fantasy" is Harry Potter which, ultimately, had more to do with relationships than actual magical adventuring.

When did that change?  Unless I was reading a Hardy Boys story, I never wanted to read stories about scrawny and awkward teenage boys.  I wanted super spies, sword wielding ass kickers, super heroes, and clever scientists, engineers, and sorcerers.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on May 16, 2022, 09:37:41 AM
This is just the logical conclusion to the idea that "representation matters". You need to see people of your own race in game. If you are disabled, you need to see people who are also disabled in game. If you are a loser millennial who has trouble adulting, you need to see loser millennials who have trouble adulting in the game as well. The whole thing has turned into an exercise in self validation.

Add this to the fact that for most D&D writers, their idea of "fantasy" is Harry Potter which, ultimately, had more to do with relationships than actual magical adventuring.

Ain't that the gawds own truth. That representation bs. This has been on my mind, especially lurking TBP (I know, I know, mental torturing myself lol). But what I realized are, exactly what you said hedge, they're loser millennials who can't adult. It's like they're technically "adult" (as in above 18 or whatever your countries age of adulthood it) but they are, and will ever be children. Because they know no adversity. And when real life kicks them when they're down, as it will, they reeee and complain and get like minded individuals to reeee and complain.

It's just astounding.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on May 16, 2022, 09:02:43 AM
I'm not so worried about Drizzt, but the Underdark itself. As it was originally created, the Underdark was a unique environment. Not because it was a cave network but because it was a vast land ruled over by a powerful race of evil elves. While you might find a temporary reprieve, you were never truly safe with the Drow roaming round. You weren't going to find a nice Drow girl and settle down like Little House on the UnderPrairie. By making Drow not evil but mostly good, you've taken the one unique thing about their homeland and turned it into just another wilderness.

What I understood from the article was that the other drow varieties are outside of the Underdark. The Underdark doesn't have an icy north or southern jungles. I believe those were deliberately chosen for non-underground areas of darkness. The arctic circle is in darkness for half the year, so I suspect the Starlight drow there live in near underground for the sunny half-year, and then occupy the surface during the dark half-year. Real-world rainforest floor has almost complete darkness (less than 2% of sunlight), which in the fantasy jungle may be complete, hence the Greenshadow drow live in forest floor communities.

So I think the idea is that the Underdark remains unchanged, but there are communities of unrelated drow in other parts of the world.

I'm not a Realms fan, but I think there have been surface-jungle-dwelling drow in the Calimshan region since the late 80s or so. I don't know if they've ever been explored in depth, so that means I couldn't say whether this is picking up a stray thread of lore or involves actual retcons to their society.

There's a jungle-dwelling variant in Eberron. But they're no more or less evil than any other critter (mind you, Eberron tosses the alignment rules for monsters, outside of aberrations and outsiders, right at the start).

Quote from: SHARK on May 16, 2022, 08:59:39 AM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on May 16, 2022, 08:46:57 AM

Quote from: SHARK on May 16, 2022, 07:39:34 AM
Greetings!

Geesus. You know, it is not an unforgivable sin to have some kind of Drow-Elf community that doesn't worship Lolth, or embraces a non-evil or even a Good alignment. Last time I checked...yes, these exceptional individuals and groups of non-evil Drow Elves have always existed, even back in the early AD&D days.

The difference is the FRAMING.

Back then, the frame was the vast majority of Drow Elves worship Lolth, are Chaotic Evil, and have a wicked and cruel matriarchal culture. Somewhere, there may be some isolated communities of Drow Elves that worship different deities, have different alignments, and have developed a different kind of culture.

Notice there isn't any references to anything being "Problematic" or other woke fucking bullshit.

This new turn of events at WOTC and retconning Drow lore and everything is yet another example of SJW's wiping their ass with traditional D&D.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes, SHARK, this. It's how it is being framed now. The sjdubs are framing anything "distasteful" to them to be this stupid, utopian wannabe, barista adventuring day.

That didn't make sense but what the sjdubs are doing is stupid LOL

Greetings!

Damn straight, my friend!

I'm curious, though, what is exactly going on with this whole drive amongst WOTC--as well as others--to have utopian wannabe, "Barista Adventuring Days"? This weird obsession with sex, "Hot messes in college"; working at normal, modern jobs, gay dances, and celebrating gossip networks with faeries? It's kind of scattered, but I think my thoughts are sensing this kind of design focus and theme, alternating between sex, drama, utopianism, and an insistence on indulging in modern jobs and petty details of ordinary lives. If that makes any sense?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

  Its as if they saw the "Papers and Paychecks" cartoon in the first edition DMG and thought that is what D&D was really all about.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 16, 2022, 12:13:33 AM
Gary famously allowed his players to play anything including a Balrog.

Many nu-Grognards choose to forget but Pepperidge farm remembers.

That was OD&D Gary, but AD&D Gary didn't open up Monsters-as-PCs in the official books to the extent he did in his games. Which is weird because Tunnels & Trolls was riding that Monster-as-PCs wave pre-AD&D and certainly Palladium Fantasy during the AD&D era.

As for Pepperidge Farms, they seem to remember everything except how to make their classic cookies taste like they used to. I had some Milanos last year and I was surprised how lame they were.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on May 15, 2022, 06:07:31 PM
I found this quote by Gary Gygax on Dragonsfoot.....and it says it all

"The drow were actually created to be the dominant human-like race in the vast subterranean world. What little I know about how they have been treated by other authors since then is not at all palatable to me. The drow are purely malign by temperment, as hateful as wolverines, as opportunistic as hyneas. They have absolutely no angst, save when facing an immediate threat from a more powerful drow or demon." `Gary Gygax

  Even before Unearthed Arcana, Gygax was open to the idea of drow PCs:

" Drow are mentioned in Keightley's THE FAIRY MYTHOLOGY, as I recall (it might have been THE SECRET COMMONWEALTH—neither book is before me, and it is not all that important anyway), and as Dark Elves of evil nature, they served as an ideal basis for the creation of a unique new mythos designed especially for AD&D. The roles the various drow are designed to play in
the series are commensurate with those of prospective player characters. In fact, the race could be used for player characters, providing that appropriate penalties were levied when a drow or half-drow was in the daylight world."--DRAGON Magazine #31, November 1979, p. 29

Quote from: Spinachcat on May 16, 2022, 06:42:13 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 16, 2022, 12:13:33 AM
Gary famously allowed his players to play anything including a Balrog.

Many nu-Grognards choose to forget but Pepperidge farm remembers.

That was OD&D Gary, but AD&D Gary didn't open up Monsters-as-PCs in the official books to the extent he did in his games. Which is weird because Tunnels & Trolls was riding that Monster-as-PCs wave pre-AD&D and certainly Palladium Fantasy during the AD&D era.

Nu-Grognards dont include anything before ADnD and nothing after the core three books?

Thats a workable definition.

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2022, 10:27:13 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on May 15, 2022, 06:07:31 PM

Quote from: Skullking on May 15, 2022, 04:38:23 AM
Screw the Realms. The only Drow worth their salt are from Greyhawk and created by Gary Gygax. No Drizzt, no Eilistraee - just Lolth (and Elder Elemental Eye - not Ghaunadaur) worshipping goodness  ;D

Those were the days.

I found this quote by Gary Gygax on Dragonsfoot.....and it says it all

"The drow were actually created to be the dominant human-like race in the vast subterranean world. What little I know about how they have been treated by other authors since then is not at all palatable to me. The drow are purely malign by temperment, as hateful as wolverines, as opportunistic as hyneas. They have absolutely no angst, save when facing an immediate threat from a more powerful drow or demon." `Gary Gygax

Except Gary Gygax released Unearthed Arcana in 1985, which has drow as an official race for players - and drow characters could be of good alignment and non-Lolth-worshipping. He might not have liked Drizzt, but it's a character type he clearly allowed for.

Unearthed Arcana was nothing more than a cash grab for TSR because they were in financial trouble at this point. Also Gary was pretty much already out of power by this time. The contents of UA are primarily from various Dragon mag articles written by Gary and compiled into one book. They slapped his name on the book to make it look "legit" and that's it. by '85, it was out of his hands. Saying Gary gave "approval" is somewhat misleading. He had no choice.

Quote from: blackstone on May 17, 2022, 10:54:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2022, 10:27:13 PM
Except Gary Gygax released Unearthed Arcana in 1985, which has drow as an official race for players - and drow characters could be of good alignment and non-Lolth-worshipping. He might not have liked Drizzt, but it's a character type he clearly allowed for.

Unearthed Arcana was nothing more than a cash grab for TSR because they were in financial trouble at this point. Also Gary was pretty much already out of power by this time. The contents of UA are primarily from various Dragon mag articles written by Gary and compiled into one book. They slapped his name on the book to make it look "legit" and that's it. by '85, it was out of his hands. Saying Gary gave "approval" is somewhat misleading. He had no choice.

That's not what I got from interviews with him. TSR was in financial difficulties at the time, but he claims credit for Unearthed Arcana, and says it was at his direction - and that it was a good product.

QuoteI paid a call upon the bank to see if a small ($50,000) short-term loan could be furnished so as to enable TSR to begin production of product bound to make money (I had instructed creative staff to begin putting together the material from Dragon magazine while I wrote additional work, so the book that was published as Unearthed Arcana was in progress then).

QuoteMeantime the work for Unearthed Arcana was finished and we managed to publish the book, despite the finances. The Oriental Adventures book was also in process, its writing a top priority. I was taking no salary and I deferred royalties to an indefinite time. All officers were taking only 50% of their normal salary.

Reception of Unearthed Arcana was excellent. At that point I exercised my stock option. With the new shares, those owned by family members, I could count on just over 50% of all shares voting in my favour. Recognizing that, the stooges did not object when I called a board meeting and took some bold steps.

Source: https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-ultimate-interview-with-gary-gygax.661637/

QuoteThey came in and did an audit, and we found out that there were something like 110 relatives of the Blumes on payroll. They all got fired, except one of them. They were getting paid more than anyone else, too. We had 60 or 70 leased and owned automobiles, most of which went back or were sold. We had systems furniture sufficient for 600 personnel— the company had about 300. About a million dollars, at least, in systems furniture. All the execs deferred about half their salaries for a while, and I didn't take any of my royalty payments.

I immediately put together Unearthed Arcana, and between that and Oriental Adventures, well, that was all it took to turn the company around. But the Blumes were really angry at me, and they wanted me to buy their stock at some ridiculous number, and I said no.

Source: https://archive.org/stream/cgm_interview_with_gary_gygax/cgm_interview_with_gary_gygax_djvu.txt

WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

Yeah... It used to be the exception that a Drow wouldn't be Evil.

WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

It's so tiresome.

Sure, players bought it. I know I did. I remember when it came out the summer of '85.

but was it any good?

From what I understand, the community is split on how they feel about UA. I personally liked it.

Great. Gary was behind it 100%. It still doesn't change the fact that it was a compilation of Dragon magazine articles slapped together quickly to sell so TSR wouldn't go belly up.

Try not to look into the past with rose colored glasses.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 17, 2022, 11:26:03 AM
WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

Yeah... It used to be the exception that a Drow wouldn't be Evil.

WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

It's so tiresome.

Agreed. all the WoTC schills & WoTC itself can eat a sack of dicks for all I care. As far as I'm concerned, Drow are by and large and evil race. Examples like Drizzit and the stats in UA are the exception, NOT the rule. So fuk them.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 17, 2022, 11:26:03 AM
WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

Yeah... It used to be the exception that a Drow wouldn't be Evil.

WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

It's so tiresome.

  "PC drow" and "non-evil drow" are an overlapping but not identical Venn diagram. The push away from Evil PCs really took off post-Gygax, after all; he didn't seem as fond of 'Evil as cool' as some others in the hobby, but he didn't want to limit things to purely good PCs either.

  A study of Gygax's approach to Good vs. Evil in D&D would be fascinating ...

Quote from: blackstone on May 17, 2022, 10:54:15 AM
Unearthed Arcana was nothing more than a cash grab for TSR because they were in financial trouble at this point. Also Gary was pretty much already out of power by this time. The contents of UA are primarily from various Dragon mag articles written by Gary and compiled into one book. They slapped his name on the book to make it look "legit" and that's it. by '85, it was out of his hands. Saying Gary gave "approval" is somewhat misleading. He had no choice.

Quote from: blackstone on May 17, 2022, 11:29:20 AM
From what I understand, the community is split on how they feel about UA. I personally liked it.

Great. Gary was behind it 100%. It still doesn't change the fact that it was a compilation of Dragon magazine articles slapped together quickly to sell so TSR wouldn't go belly up.

Try not to look into the past with rose colored glasses.

I certainly agree about the rose-colored glasses, and I agree that UA was slapped together quickly to sell, and it doesn't hang together well. The only part I was disputing was your claim about how it was out of Gary's hands.

When I was playing as a teenager back in the 1980s, I had plenty of criticisms of D&D and I still hold those. At the time, I shifted over to mostly playing Champions, though I also kept playing D&D until I went to college. I've gone back to it periodically, and have played at least a little in every edition. I'm currently running a 5E campaign.

I think every era of D&D has their problems as well as their good points. I'll generally pick and choose the things I like and leave the rest.

Quote from: blackstone on May 17, 2022, 11:29:20 AMFrom what I understand, the community is split on how they feel about UA. I personally liked it.

Whether you think UA is good or not, it is clear from the book that anyone playing a Drow is an outcast and not a normal Drow. It also appears that good drow are kicked out of the Underdark.

From pg 10:

"A dark elf player character is considered an outcast from his or her homeland deep within the earth, whether by matter of choice, alignment, or merely being on the losing side of some family-wide power struggle."

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 17, 2022, 11:47:58 AMA study of Gygax's approach to Good vs. Evil in D&D would be fascinating ...

Gygax' warning against playing monsters or evil creatures seems to me to mainly be because he inherited that idea from Arneson. Dave was famous for having one of this early players playing a Balrog and for having a character be the King of the Orcs. However, if you read about these early session, the "bad guy" players sat next to the DM and manipulated their character's minion while the rest of the players played the heroes. This turned out to be not as fun as being the hero so the idea was dropped pretty quickly.

However, when discussing monsters PCs there are four ways in which this might work:

1) Players playing good versions of evil monsters
2) Players playing evil monsters in a normal party.
3) Players with evil monsters working behind the scenes to thwart the good PCs who play in a separate session (sort of the reverse of the Patron PC idea)
4) Evil monsters in an all-evil campaign (ala Vampire:TM).

Personally I only find options #1 and #3 to have any appeal.

Wait, this article was from last year?
I.. don't understand why these new types of drow are necessary.
I guess people at WoTC don't understand the norse mythology that inspired drow?
If you want to have more kinds of elfs, fine ,that's cool, but like.. just.. what?   There's already like.. 7-8 or more kinds of elves before this change in drow? Drow were already a flavor of elf.

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on May 20, 2022, 01:22:48 PM
Wait, this article was from last year?
I.. don't understand why these new types of drow are necessary.
I guess people at WoTC don't understand the norse mythology that inspired drow?
If you want to have more kinds of elfs, fine ,that's cool, but like.. just.. what?   There's already like.. 7-8 or more kinds of elves before this change in drow? Drow were already a flavor of elf.

I agree the new types aren't necessary - but that's true of anything new. The drow as a whole aren't necessary - D&D worked fine before the drow were introduced. One can have a great game without the new drow cultures, or without drow at all, or without elves at all.

As for why new varieties... Personally, I like the trope of introducing different cultures for the same physical race. It's been done before in D&D, but it hasn't been overdone, and there's plenty of room for more variety in the cultures of the core races. Fantasy fiction in general has a tendency towards monocultures for non-human races, and I think it's good to have options away from that.

In my current D&D campaign, all of the races have non-standard culture because it's not a European-inspired setting. So, for example, one of the PCs is a wood elf - but here "woods" means Amazon-like jungle because that's the forest of the setting. So these wood elves are jungle warriors with a particular hatred for the Yuan-ti who are the main evil in their environment.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 17, 2022, 11:26:03 AM
WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

Yeah... It used to be the exception that a Drow wouldn't be Evil.

WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

It's so tiresome.

Greetings!

Exactly, my friend! These apologists are fucking either intentionally or mistakenly "Arguing from the Extreme". Taking the letter of the law, and elevating it above the spirit of the law, so to speak. It is all about the difference in *Framing*. Modern WOTC books front and center monster player characters and weird fucking races, constantly promoting them, glorifying them, and assuming them all to be the fucked up crazy zoo is normal for  game world.

Back in the day--Humans were THE STANDARD, THE NORM, with a few normal demi-humans--Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, and Gnomes.

Other crazy races and monsters were more or less hidden away within the Dungeon Master's Guide, with clear and explicit advice that the DM should typically not allow such in their game world, or if they chose to do so, to think long and very carefully about their world, and in any event, proceed to include such crazy races carefully, and with caution. Furthermore, a DM was entirely entitled to merely allow few exceptions as a kind of experiment, so if the player or DM didn't feel the race of character worked or was balanced, then boom--such a character could easily be removed and otherwise explained, without huge and irreparable damage done to the integrity and consistency of the DM's game world.

That overriding sense of caution, of restraint, of exception, and entire DM's authority and judgment being absolutely PRIMARY, is what is sadly absent from the current line of WOTC books, and that absence, that very precise difference in FRAMING is what causes these kinds of epic debates between mostly "Old School" DM's and Players, and WOTC "New School" apologists.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

QuoteAs for why new varieties... Personally, I like the trope of introducing different cultures for the same physical race. It's been done before in D&D, but it hasn't been overdone, and there's plenty of room for more variety in the cultures of the core races. Fantasy fiction in general has a tendency towards monocultures for non-human races, and I think it's good to have options away from that.

There's no value in a culture with 0 internal conflict, where everything runs smoothly and resources are literally infinite, and all of that is handwaved with an explanation like "uhh, magic... yeah, magic did it!" Especially in a world like the Forgotten Realms, where not even magocracies have that kind of access to magically conjured resources. Yet, this is what Salvatore did with the Aevendrow.

There's also no value in saying that these massive cultures have always been there, in places that border other civilizations, but that no one ever noticed them for *tens of thousands* of years. Especially because hyper advanced civilizations like the Aevendrow leave deep traces in the environs. Once again, everything is handwaved with "they hide... WITH MAGIC! And they erase memories WITH MAGIC! And they're so awesome that people willingly let their memories be erased!" Because we can't afford giving these civilizations any problem, so even blatant violence must be artificially justified. Moreover, why are they hiding? They have insane mastery over magic, and their numbers are FAR bigger than Menzo (and note that Salvatore dramatically changed the history of the drow in FR, saying that the drow who would become followers of Lolth simply went underground, founded Menzo, and Menzo is the bulk of their numbers).

In short, it's the worst kind of worldbuilding, with 0 thought put into it, and 0 respect for the work done before. It's just an extremely incompetent way to do "representation".

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2022, 02:19:12 PM

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on May 20, 2022, 01:22:48 PM
Wait, this article was from last year?
I.. don't understand why these new types of drow are necessary.
I guess people at WoTC don't understand the norse mythology that inspired drow?
If you want to have more kinds of elfs, fine ,that's cool, but like.. just.. what?   There's already like.. 7-8 or more kinds of elves before this change in drow? Drow were already a flavor of elf.

I agree the new types aren't necessary - but that's true of anything new. The drow as a whole aren't necessary - D&D worked fine before the drow were introduced. One can have a great game without the new drow cultures, or without drow at all, or without elves at all.

As for why new varieties... Personally, I like the trope of introducing different cultures for the same physical race. It's been done before in D&D, but it hasn't been overdone, and there's plenty of room for more variety in the cultures of the core races. Fantasy fiction in general has a tendency towards monocultures for non-human races, and I think it's good to have options away from that.

In my current D&D campaign, all of the races have non-standard culture because it's not a European-inspired setting. So, for example, one of the PCs is a wood elf - but here "woods" means Amazon-like jungle because that's the forest of the setting. So these wood elves are jungle warriors with a particular hatred for the Yuan-ti who are the main evil in their environment.

Greetings!

Good stuff, Jhkim. Having different varieties and cultural interpretations of races and such is awesome. I think more people would embrace such ideas--or at least be willing to consider them--if these ideas being pushed by WOTC and others weren't pumped full of SJW BS. That is where many people get immediately hostile to even the concept--because of such ideas being pumped with SJW BS and framed into some flavour of SJW REEE fit.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Namie on May 20, 2022, 02:28:44 PM

QuoteAs for why new varieties... Personally, I like the trope of introducing different cultures for the same physical race. It's been done before in D&D, but it hasn't been overdone, and there's plenty of room for more variety in the cultures of the core races. Fantasy fiction in general has a tendency towards monocultures for non-human races, and I think it's good to have options away from that.

There's no value in a culture with 0 internal conflict, where everything runs smoothly and resources are literally infinite, and all of that is handwaved with an explanation like "uhh, magic... yeah, magic did it!" Especially in a world like the Forgotten Realms, where not even magocracies have that kind of access to magically conjured resources. Yet, this is what Salvatore did with the Aevendrow.

There's also no value in saying that these massive cultures have always been there, in places that border other civilizations, but that no one ever noticed them for *tens of thousands* of years. Especially because hyper advanced civilizations like the Aevendrow leave deep traces in the environs. Once again, everything is handwaved with "they hide... WITH MAGIC! And they erase memories WITH MAGIC! And they're so awesome that people willingly let their memories be erased!" Because we can't afford giving these civilizations any problem, so even blatant violence must be artificially justified. Moreover, why are they hiding? They have insane mastery over magic, and their numbers are FAR bigger than Menzo (and note that Salvatore dramatically changed the history of the drow in FR, saying that the drow who would become followers of Lolth simply went underground, founded Menzo, and Menzo is the bulk of their numbers).

In short, it's the worst kind of worldbuilding, with 0 thought put into it, and 0 respect for the work done before. It's just an extremely incompetent way to do "representation".

Greetings!

Excellent points, Namie!

Very poor worldbuilding! That is why I think as they have proceeded, they have increasingly fucked up more and more. Think of how divorced from historical principles, resources, geography, and so on they are on so many aspects.

In our own real history, a constant theme emerges, nearly everywhere, amongst all peoples. They are always fighting, always struggling against rivals and enemies, for resources, women, animals, land. Even small, isolated, obscure tribes way the hell up in Siberia, or in central Africa, in the Himmalayas, Tibet, the deepest jungles of Central America or South America. Even small, isolated tribes, experience war, competition, and *conflict*

But somehow, in WOTC fantasy Barney Land, there are races that manage to live in peaceful rainbow harmony and bliss for thousands of years. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 20, 2022, 02:40:26 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2022, 02:19:12 PM
As for why new varieties... Personally, I like the trope of introducing different cultures for the same physical race. It's been done before in D&D, but it hasn't been overdone, and there's plenty of room for more variety in the cultures of the core races. Fantasy fiction in general has a tendency towards monocultures for non-human races, and I think it's good to have options away from that.

In my current D&D campaign, all of the races have non-standard culture because it's not a European-inspired setting. So, for example, one of the PCs is a wood elf - but here "woods" means Amazon-like jungle because that's the forest of the setting. So these wood elves are jungle warriors with a particular hatred for the Yuan-ti who are the main evil in their environment.

Good stuff, Jhkim. Having different varieties and cultural interpretations of races and such is awesome. I think more people would embrace such ideas--or at least be willing to consider them--if these ideas being pushed by WOTC and others weren't pumped full of SJW BS. That is where many people get immediately hostile to even the concept--because of such ideas being pumped with SJW BS and framed into some flavour of SJW REEE fit.

I found a playtest writeup of the new drow varieties here. It is free (pay what you want).

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/363504/Jarlaxles-Bag-of-Everything-Drow-Lineages

I don't see anything in it that strikes me as SJW about the Starlight elves. The Greenshadow elves' love of nature and rejection of the elven gods (having only druids, no clerics) could be taken as SJW for being environmentalist and/or anti-church, but it seems to fit pretty well within the game world. Elves have always had an environmentalist streak in them, and it's built into the game mechanics that druids revering nature is different from clerical worship of gods.

It seemed to me that posters here were not reacting to the content of either the Starlight or Greenshadow, but rather to the concept of having different cultures of drow.

Quote from: Namie on May 20, 2022, 02:28:44 PM

QuoteAs for why new varieties... Personally, I like the trope of introducing different cultures for the same physical race. It's been done before in D&D, but it hasn't been overdone, and there's plenty of room for more variety in the cultures of the core races. Fantasy fiction in general has a tendency towards monocultures for non-human races, and I think it's good to have options away from that.

There's no value in a culture with 0 internal conflict, where everything runs smoothly and resources are literally infinite, and all of that is handwaved with an explanation like "uhh, magic... yeah, magic did it!" Especially in a world like the Forgotten Realms, where not even magocracies have that kind of access to magically conjured resources. Yet, this is what Salvatore did with the Aevendrow.

There's also no value in saying that these massive cultures have always been there, in places that border other civilizations, but that no one ever noticed them for *tens of thousands* of years.

Welcome, Namie. To clarify - I've played D&D a lot, but I've never read any Salvatore novels at all, and thus also not the latest, Starlight Enclave. The only way that I know the Aevendrow are through the initial article linked from the original post (OP) of this thread and now from the DMs Guild playtest writeup.

I would easily believe that Salvatore's novel about the Aevendrow sucked. If so, that's too bad.

I think especially the latter is a problem of continuity. Yes, it's stupid for a major culture to exist and no one noticed them. It's a frequent problem for introducing new game elements into a pre-existing world. It was similar for introducing the drow into Greyhawk, where in 1978 drow were only a rumor, then they became a player character option.

I'm not currently running Forgotten Realms, but if I was, I'd probably ignore the Salvatore novel and have the Aevendrow be retconned into being a known element of the arctic who interact with other arctic cultures. They would also have problems and internal conflicts equivalent to other elven cultures.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on May 15, 2022, 11:01:24 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 15, 2022, 10:27:13 PM
Except Gary Gygax released Unearthed Arcana in 1985, which has drow as an official race for players - and drow characters could be of good alignment and non-Lolth-worshipping. He might not have liked Drizzt, but it's a character type he clearly allowed for.

Oh, I'll grant you that. No arguments. That's one of the things about the UA Cavalier; drow could be one. I always thought that cool.

I'm not going to tell anyone how to run drow in their game, but the way I choose to interpret that quote is, as a whole, that's the way the dark elves act. There is room for the Drizzt or worshipers of Elistraee (however you spell it). But they're rare.

UA is in part a compillation book of articles from Dragon that were playtested and altered. And over the years opinions and presentations can abd will change and sometimes change again. Remember that Gary loved to create new stuff and experiment with ideas. Especially player suggestions. So taking a try at playable drow makes perfect sense. Hand the players the tools and let them use them or not.