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Author Topic: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow  (Read 8104 times)

Spinachcat

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2022, 06:42:13 PM »
Gary famously allowed his players to play anything including a Balrog.

Many nu-Grognards choose to forget but Pepperidge farm remembers.

That was OD&D Gary, but AD&D Gary didn't open up Monsters-as-PCs in the official books to the extent he did in his games. Which is weird because Tunnels & Trolls was riding that Monster-as-PCs wave pre-AD&D and certainly Palladium Fantasy during the AD&D era.

As for Pepperidge Farms, they seem to remember everything except how to make their classic cookies taste like they used to. I had some Milanos last year and I was surprised how lame they were.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2022, 06:55:52 PM »
I found this quote by Gary Gygax on Dragonsfoot.....and it says it all

"The drow were actually created to be the dominant human-like race in the vast subterranean world. What little I know about how they have been treated by other authors since then is not at all palatable to me. The drow are purely malign by temperment, as hateful as wolverines, as opportunistic as hyneas. They have absolutely no angst, save when facing an immediate threat from a more powerful drow or demon." `Gary Gygax

  Even before Unearthed Arcana, Gygax was open to the idea of drow PCs:

" Drow are mentioned in Keightley’s THE FAIRY MYTHOLOGY, as I recall (it might have been THE SECRET COMMONWEALTH—neither book is before me, and it is not all that important anyway), and as Dark Elves of evil nature, they served as an ideal basis for the creation of a unique new mythos designed especially for AD&D. The roles the various drow are designed to play in
the series are commensurate with those of prospective player characters. In fact, the race could be used for player characters, providing that appropriate penalties were levied when a drow or half-drow was in the daylight world."--DRAGON Magazine #31, November 1979, p. 29

Shasarak

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2022, 11:41:59 PM »
Gary famously allowed his players to play anything including a Balrog.

Many nu-Grognards choose to forget but Pepperidge farm remembers.

That was OD&D Gary, but AD&D Gary didn't open up Monsters-as-PCs in the official books to the extent he did in his games. Which is weird because Tunnels & Trolls was riding that Monster-as-PCs wave pre-AD&D and certainly Palladium Fantasy during the AD&D era.

Nu-Grognards dont include anything before ADnD and nothing after the core three books?

Thats a workable definition.
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blackstone

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #63 on: May 17, 2022, 10:54:15 AM »
Screw the Realms. The only Drow worth their salt are from Greyhawk and created by Gary Gygax. No Drizzt, no Eilistraee - just Lolth (and Elder Elemental Eye - not Ghaunadaur) worshipping goodness  ;D

Those were the days.

I found this quote by Gary Gygax on Dragonsfoot.....and it says it all

"The drow were actually created to be the dominant human-like race in the vast subterranean world. What little I know about how they have been treated by other authors since then is not at all palatable to me. The drow are purely malign by temperment, as hateful as wolverines, as opportunistic as hyneas. They have absolutely no angst, save when facing an immediate threat from a more powerful drow or demon." `Gary Gygax

Except Gary Gygax released Unearthed Arcana in 1985, which has drow as an official race for players - and drow characters could be of good alignment and non-Lolth-worshipping. He might not have liked Drizzt, but it's a character type he clearly allowed for.

Unearthed Arcana was nothing more than a cash grab for TSR because they were in financial trouble at this point. Also Gary was pretty much already out of power by this time. The contents of UA are primarily from various Dragon mag articles written by Gary and compiled into one book. They slapped his name on the book to make it look "legit" and that's it. by '85, it was out of his hands. Saying Gary gave "approval" is somewhat misleading. He had no choice.

jhkim

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #64 on: May 17, 2022, 11:15:31 AM »
Except Gary Gygax released Unearthed Arcana in 1985, which has drow as an official race for players - and drow characters could be of good alignment and non-Lolth-worshipping. He might not have liked Drizzt, but it's a character type he clearly allowed for.

Unearthed Arcana was nothing more than a cash grab for TSR because they were in financial trouble at this point. Also Gary was pretty much already out of power by this time. The contents of UA are primarily from various Dragon mag articles written by Gary and compiled into one book. They slapped his name on the book to make it look "legit" and that's it. by '85, it was out of his hands. Saying Gary gave "approval" is somewhat misleading. He had no choice.

That's not what I got from interviews with him. TSR was in financial difficulties at the time, but he claims credit for Unearthed Arcana, and says it was at his direction - and that it was a good product.

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I paid a call upon the bank to see if a small ($50,000) short-term loan could be furnished so as to enable TSR to begin production of product bound to make money (I had instructed creative staff to begin putting together the material from Dragon magazine while I wrote additional work, so the book that was published as Unearthed Arcana was in progress then).
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Meantime the work for Unearthed Arcana was finished and we managed to publish the book, despite the finances. The Oriental Adventures book was also in process, its writing a top priority. I was taking no salary and I deferred royalties to an indefinite time. All officers were taking only 50% of their normal salary.

Reception of Unearthed Arcana was excellent. At that point I exercised my stock option. With the new shares, those owned by family members, I could count on just over 50% of all shares voting in my favour. Recognizing that, the stooges did not object when I called a board meeting and took some bold steps.

Source: https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-ultimate-interview-with-gary-gygax.661637/

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They came in and did an audit, and we found out that there were something like 110 relatives of the Blumes on payroll. They all got fired, except one of them. They were getting paid more than anyone else, too. We had 60 or 70 leased and owned automobiles, most of which went back or were sold. We had systems furniture sufficient for 600 personnel— the company had about 300. About a million dollars, at least, in systems furniture. All the execs deferred about half their salaries for a while, and I didn't take any of my royalty payments.

I immediately put together Unearthed Arcana, and between that and Oriental Adventures, well, that was all it took to turn the company around. But the Blumes were really angry at me, and they wanted me to buy their stock at some ridiculous number, and I said no.

Source: https://archive.org/stream/cgm_interview_with_gary_gygax/cgm_interview_with_gary_gygax_djvu.txt

GeekyBugle

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2022, 11:26:03 AM »
WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

Yeah... It used to be the exception that a Drow wouldn't be Evil.

WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

It's so tiresome.
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blackstone

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #66 on: May 17, 2022, 11:29:20 AM »
Sure, players bought it. I know I did. I remember when it came out the summer of '85.

but was it any good?

From what I understand, the community is split on how they feel about UA. I personally liked it.

Great. Gary was behind it 100%. It still doesn't change the fact that it was a compilation of Dragon magazine articles slapped together quickly to sell so TSR wouldn't go belly up.

Try not to look into the past with rose colored glasses.

blackstone

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #67 on: May 17, 2022, 11:32:51 AM »
WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

Yeah... It used to be the exception that a Drow wouldn't be Evil.

WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

It's so tiresome.

Agreed. all the WoTC schills & WoTC itself can eat a sack of dicks for all I care. As far as I'm concerned, Drow are by and large and evil race. Examples like Drizzit and the stats in UA are the exception, NOT the rule. So fuk them.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2022, 11:47:58 AM »
WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

Yeah... It used to be the exception that a Drow wouldn't be Evil.

WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

It's so tiresome.

  "PC drow" and "non-evil drow" are an overlapping but not identical Venn diagram. The push away from Evil PCs really took off post-Gygax, after all; he didn't seem as fond of 'Evil as cool' as some others in the hobby, but he didn't want to limit things to purely good PCs either.

  A study of Gygax's approach to Good vs. Evil in D&D would be fascinating ...

jhkim

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2022, 11:54:27 AM »
Unearthed Arcana was nothing more than a cash grab for TSR because they were in financial trouble at this point. Also Gary was pretty much already out of power by this time. The contents of UA are primarily from various Dragon mag articles written by Gary and compiled into one book. They slapped his name on the book to make it look "legit" and that's it. by '85, it was out of his hands. Saying Gary gave "approval" is somewhat misleading. He had no choice.

From what I understand, the community is split on how they feel about UA. I personally liked it.

Great. Gary was behind it 100%. It still doesn't change the fact that it was a compilation of Dragon magazine articles slapped together quickly to sell so TSR wouldn't go belly up.

Try not to look into the past with rose colored glasses.

I certainly agree about the rose-colored glasses, and I agree that UA was slapped together quickly to sell, and it doesn't hang together well. The only part I was disputing was your claim about how it was out of Gary's hands.

When I was playing as a teenager back in the 1980s, I had plenty of criticisms of D&D and I still hold those. At the time, I shifted over to mostly playing Champions, though I also kept playing D&D until I went to college. I've gone back to it periodically, and have played at least a little in every edition. I'm currently running a 5E campaign.

I think every era of D&D has their problems as well as their good points. I'll generally pick and choose the things I like and leave the rest.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 11:56:30 AM by jhkim »

hedgehobbit

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2022, 12:44:23 PM »
From what I understand, the community is split on how they feel about UA. I personally liked it.

Whether you think UA is good or not, it is clear from the book that anyone playing a Drow is an outcast and not a normal Drow. It also appears that good drow are kicked out of the Underdark.

From pg 10:

"A dark elf player character is considered an outcast from his or her homeland deep within the earth, whether by matter of choice, alignment, or merely being on the losing side of some family-wide power struggle."

hedgehobbit

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2022, 12:49:34 PM »
  A study of Gygax's approach to Good vs. Evil in D&D would be fascinating ...

Gygax' warning against playing monsters or evil creatures seems to me to mainly be because he inherited that idea from Arneson. Dave was famous for having one of this early players playing a Balrog and for having a character be the King of the Orcs. However, if you read about these early session, the "bad guy" players sat next to the DM and manipulated their character's minion while the rest of the players played the heroes. This turned out to be not as fun as being the hero so the idea was dropped pretty quickly.

However, when discussing monsters PCs there are four ways in which this might work:

1) Players playing good versions of evil monsters
2) Players playing evil monsters in a normal party.
3) Players with evil monsters working behind the scenes to thwart the good PCs who play in a separate session (sort of the reverse of the Patron PC idea)
4) Evil monsters in an all-evil campaign (ala Vampire:TM).

Personally I only find options #1 and #3 to have any appeal.

Banjo Destructo

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #72 on: May 20, 2022, 01:22:48 PM »
Wait, this article was from last year?
I.. don't understand why these new types of drow are necessary.
I guess people at WoTC don't understand the norse mythology that inspired drow?
If you want to have more kinds of elfs, fine ,that's cool, but like.. just.. what?   There's already like.. 7-8 or more kinds of elves before this change in drow? Drow were already a flavor of elf.

jhkim

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #73 on: May 20, 2022, 02:19:12 PM »
Wait, this article was from last year?
I.. don't understand why these new types of drow are necessary.
I guess people at WoTC don't understand the norse mythology that inspired drow?
If you want to have more kinds of elfs, fine ,that's cool, but like.. just.. what?   There's already like.. 7-8 or more kinds of elves before this change in drow? Drow were already a flavor of elf.

I agree the new types aren't necessary - but that's true of anything new. The drow as a whole aren't necessary - D&D worked fine before the drow were introduced. One can have a great game without the new drow cultures, or without drow at all, or without elves at all.

As for why new varieties... Personally, I like the trope of introducing different cultures for the same physical race. It's been done before in D&D, but it hasn't been overdone, and there's plenty of room for more variety in the cultures of the core races. Fantasy fiction in general has a tendency towards monocultures for non-human races, and I think it's good to have options away from that.

In my current D&D campaign, all of the races have non-standard culture because it's not a European-inspired setting. So, for example, one of the PCs is a wood elf - but here "woods" means Amazon-like jungle because that's the forest of the setting. So these wood elves are jungle warriors with a particular hatred for the Yuan-ti who are the main evil in their environment.

SHARK

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Re: WotC Working HARD in ruining the Drow
« Reply #74 on: May 20, 2022, 02:22:47 PM »
WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

Yeah... It used to be the exception that a Drow wouldn't be Evil.

WotC Apologists> There's always been monsters as PCs!

It's so tiresome.

Greetings!

Exactly, my friend! These apologists are fucking either intentionally or mistakenly "Arguing from the Extreme". Taking the letter of the law, and elevating it above the spirit of the law, so to speak. It is all about the difference in *Framing*. Modern WOTC books front and center monster player characters and weird fucking races, constantly promoting them, glorifying them, and assuming them all to be the fucked up crazy zoo is normal for  game world.

Back in the day--Humans were THE STANDARD, THE NORM, with a few normal demi-humans--Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, and Gnomes.

Other crazy races and monsters were more or less hidden away within the Dungeon Master's Guide, with clear and explicit advice that the DM should typically not allow such in their game world, or if they chose to do so, to think long and very carefully about their world, and in any event, proceed to include such crazy races carefully, and with caution. Furthermore, a DM was entirely entitled to merely allow few exceptions as a kind of experiment, so if the player or DM didn't feel the race of character worked or was balanced, then boom--such a character could easily be removed and otherwise explained, without huge and irreparable damage done to the integrity and consistency of the DM's game world.

That overriding sense of caution, of restraint, of exception, and entire DM's authority and judgment being absolutely PRIMARY, is what is sadly absent from the current line of WOTC books, and that absence, that very precise difference in FRAMING is what causes these kinds of epic debates between mostly "Old School" DM's and Players, and WOTC "New School" apologists.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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