Hot take for the day, Spelljammer is just woke Warhammer 40000.

Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 11:34:49 AM

Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 10:01:19 AM
Oh fuck off you disingenuous twat.

You don't get to play the victim or claim to hold the moral high ground when you have shown to simply be trolling in most cases. Every so often I will admit you can make a valid point.

Usually it so you can get a reaction from those here and nothing else.

So keep trolling Troll.

No victim here, I find it hilarious, as always. But do go on about "victimhood" as you sidestep my honestly made point with weak excuses not to engage, all while blubbering about "good faith".

I don't trust anything you have to say 99% of the time it's sheer Trolling to myself and others on this site. So the 1% where your actual made a point and not Troll I summarily ignore.
You honestly thought one good point in the miasma of Trolling that gets posted by you and all is forgiven Nah  fuck that. You don't get any benefit of the doubt anymore.

Go Go Soyarmy Trolling Ranger.

Do people still reply to Tubesock because it's so difficult to find the "block" feature on this forum?

You only have one life, no point wasting it typing out responses to obvious trolls.

Quote from: migo on April 27, 2022, 07:30:28 AM
They screwed up Forgotten Realms already, it's about time that they did it to the other major settings. They'll get around to ruining Greyhawk too somehow.

TSR kind of started that as over time FR got more and more stupid. But they did that to Known World too by turning it into Mystara. Greyhawk was for a long time relatively unchanged. I hear something happened in 3e or on. But havent seen yet.

WOTC did a kinda-sorta-almost Greyhawk book as Ghosts of Saltmarsh is set in Greyhawk. Though you only learn about the areas around that town and wherever the original modules ranged out mostly. Which might be a good thing as its less chances for WOTC to screw with it.

So far Spelljammer just seems to be getting relocated from the Phlogston to the Astral. With some races retooled. Not enough shown yet to say how badly it will go.

As for Dragonlance. After thinking on this. The trailer is probably intentional outrage marketing. Meant to bait people into complaining so WOTC can garner free advertising. And  Pundit takes the bait and advertises for them like a good little pavlovian dog. They know the buttons to push.

Quote from: Omega on April 27, 2022, 05:14:58 PM

Quote from: migo on April 27, 2022, 07:30:28 AM
They screwed up Forgotten Realms already, it's about time that they did it to the other major settings. They'll get around to ruining Greyhawk too somehow.

TSR kind of started that as over time FR got more and more stupid. But they did that to Known World too by turning it into Mystara. Greyhawk was for a long time relatively unchanged. I hear something happened in 3e or on. But havent seen yet.

WOTC did a kinda-sorta-almost Greyhawk book as Ghosts of Saltmarsh is set in Greyhawk. Though you only learn about the areas around that town and wherever the original modules ranged out mostly. Which might be a good thing as its less chances for WOTC to screw with it.

So far Spelljammer just seems to be getting relocated from the Phlogston to the Astral. With some races retooled. Not enough shown yet to say how badly it will go.

As for Dragonlance. After thinking on this. The trailer is probably intentional outrage marketing. Meant to bait people into complaining so WOTC can garner free advertising. And  Pundit takes the bait and advertises for them like a good little pavlovian dog. They know the buttons to push.

Greetings!

Omega, saying that Pundit is a Pavlovian dog is not only harsh, but unfair. I think your critique is entirely misplaced and wrong, as well. Pundit has taken on the task not only here, but also more specifically at Inappropriate Characters, as well as his own videos, to focus on discussion of concepts, trends, and news going on in the hobby.

Dragonlance and Spelljammer books being produced by WOTC are thus, "Big News" and entirely relevant. In addition, *many* other You-Tube creators and program hosts are discussing these developments. "Legend of Myth", "OSR Unchained" (DM Bloodworth's program); Aaron the Pedantic, I think The Dungeon Dudes, the Dungeoncraft program, (Hosted by Professor Dungeon Master), and probably a few others I'm missing at the moment.

I don't know why you so often snidely critique Pundit's programming, man. His program is about gaming, the gaming hobby, news, and politics.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The act of buying NuDragonLance is a humiliation ritual for WotC pop-Cultists to submit to, thereby showing their loyalty to the socially sanitized 5e D&D regime. Don't be a WotC pop-Cultist.

And SpellJammer always Fucking sucked. Making it suck even harder, and finally putting the poor thing down is actually a service to the D&D community. As unintentional as it is on WotC's part.


WotC's marketing:

Outrage marketing doesn't work. It's a myth. It is just the wokeoso's conning themselves that they are putting one over on their critics.

It inevitably backfires. And actually turns people away from the product.

i.e. The Venom sequel: Let there be Carnage  The wokeoso studio tweety marketing said that venom and eddie's symbiotic relationship was a homo romance... Even though nothing like that was in the film at all.

Insider word on the internet was that nothing like that was in the film, just stupid marketing, so many still went to see the movie, and it did reasonably well. $502.1 million worldwide. FWIW the non-outrage marketed 2018 Venom did $856 million worldwide... So people blamed the coof etc..

But then there is this:

Even though there was no Venom-eddie homo in the actual film, solely due to the wokeoso's outrage marketing - it was banned in China...

The studio's outrage marketing literally cost them tens of Millions of dollars by getting it banned in a major world movie market.


Back to 5e D&D:

So what if the virtue signaling tweets about wheelchairs and gayness is not very explicit in the final releases. It has gotten people to examine the releases closer than they otherwise would have - and exposed them all to be more than a bit pants all-around...

So rather than the books hitting shelves and being bought sight-unseen by the D&D pop-cult masses. Each outrage marketed release is under a microscope buy channels that would otherwise not give a shit, and all the WotC devs design shortcomings are getting more exposure than ever before.

No more threads on 5e cheerleader sites about how the new hotness 5e release is the top selling D&D book for x weeks running.

Now more than ever, they hit, and then they fade...

IMHO; WotC needs to do more outrage marketing, not less. Because I like what it is doing to them.

Uh... Venom isn't male. Whatever their relationship is, it isn't homosexual.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 27, 2022, 08:17:17 PM
IMHO; WotC needs to do more outrage marketing, not less. Because I like what it is doing to them.

Agreed 1000%

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 27, 2022, 08:38:48 PM
Uh... Venom isn't male. Whatever their relationship is, it isn't homosexual.

Bestiality then?

Quote from: Jaeger on April 27, 2022, 08:17:17 PM
Outrage marketing doesn't work. It's a myth.

I don't entirely agree with this. Outrage marketing can work, but it works when the product is good and the outrage is dumb. It fails in the reverse scenario, which is where WOTC finds itself.

Quote from: SHARK on April 27, 2022, 06:22:54 PM
Omega, saying that Pundit is a Pavlovian dog is not only harsh, but unfair. I think your critique is entirely misplaced and wrong, as well. Pundit has taken on the task not only here, but also more specifically at Inappropriate Characters, as well as his own videos, to focus on discussion of concepts, trends, and news going on in the hobby.

I don't know why you so often snidely critique Pundit's programming, man. His program is about gaming, the gaming hobby, news, and politics.

It is neither harsh nor unfair. And we all fall for it all too often. Even me and I am on to their little game and still fell for it. Every post and vid we make in opposition of whatever concocted wrong WOTC in particular is smokescreening today is just more free advertising for them.

I do not snidely critique Pundit. I point out a very real problem that we are being played and Pundit really should pay attention more. We have seen time and again now where WOTC makes some announcement that reads WOKE AGENDA!!!, but the actual product has had a marked tendency to not have these proclaimed things. Either so small an instance as to be just short of non-existent. Or like Candlekeep... really is non-existent.

And odds are that this trailer for Dragonlance is another. The book will come out and aside from some minority inserts in the art and maybe a reference to some lesbian kender or the return of the cross-dressing draconian... Will be pretty baseline a product again. Radiant Citadel may be the exception but havent seen it yet so who knows.

Baseline is we need to stop salivating every time they ring the damn bell.

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on April 27, 2022, 09:22:47 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on April 27, 2022, 08:17:17 PM
Outrage marketing doesn't work. It's a myth.

I don't entirely agree with this. Outrage marketing can work, but it works when the product is good and the outrage is dumb. It fails in the reverse scenario, which is where WOTC finds itself.

I actually am dubious outrage marketing works either. Problem is... Marketing believes it works as it of were a mandate from god.

They believe that any losses they garner will be outweighed by new arrivals attracted by the outrage. This goes back to the edition treadmil surge and why some companies were putting out new editions that seemed hand crafted to piss off fans of the older editions. Or pissed off there was a new edition at all.

Marketing keeps telling the execs that they can recoup the losses in customers. But 4e proved them wrong finally.

Jeff Grubb did not sell Spelljammer.  He was working for TSR at the time, the company owned it from day one.  As for Weis and Hickman, they did some legal arrangement with TSR, so sockpuppet is correct, they sold the IP fair and square.  Of course, back when they sold it they probably sold it to people with whom they had some kind of basic respect and the expectation that they wouldn't be treated like shit, but that's the way the cookie crumbles when a company gets sold and decades go by.  Just ask the Tolkiens how they feel about the big fat nothing they got for the recent movies.

Quote from: Omega on April 27, 2022, 10:53:46 PM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on April 27, 2022, 09:22:47 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on April 27, 2022, 08:17:17 PM
Outrage marketing doesn't work. It's a myth.

I don't entirely agree with this. Outrage marketing can work, but it works when the product is good and the outrage is dumb. It fails in the reverse scenario, which is where WOTC finds itself.

I actually am dubious outrage marketing works either. Problem is... Marketing believes it works as it of were a mandate from god.

They believe that any losses they garner will be outweighed by new arrivals attracted by the outrage. This goes back to the edition treadmil surge and why some companies were putting out new editions that seemed hand crafted to piss off fans of the older editions. Or pissed off there was a new edition at all.

Marketing keeps telling the execs that they can recoup the losses in customers. But 4e proved them wrong finally.

4e didn't fail because of outrage marketing. 3.5 was an objectively bad design, and the longer it stayed around the worse it got for new players. It was designed explicitly with trap choices, and so system mastery matters. So after a while if you picked it up new you were at a severe disadvantage, because you'd be falling into the choices and your character couldn't compete with those who had optimised builds. They had to make a new edition because sales were slowing down.

4e mechanically was good, but the higher ups in Hasbro were undoubtedly upset at the result of the OGL, so 4e came up with the extremely restrictive GSL that was designed and intended to kill the OGL. So devs wouldn't touch 4e at all, even though it seemed like a perfect platform for EarthDawn, and it was being considered for that. And 4e ended up having next to no 3rd party support, which was all shifted over to Pathfinder, and the OSR got an extra shot of life because there were people who just wouldn't touch Pathfinder for the same reason 3.5 was failing.

It was the GSL that killed 4e, nothing else.

Quote from: Omega on April 27, 2022, 10:53:46 PM

Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on April 27, 2022, 09:22:47 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on April 27, 2022, 08:17:17 PM
Outrage marketing doesn't work. It's a myth.

I don't entirely agree with this. Outrage marketing can work, but it works when the product is good and the outrage is dumb. It fails in the reverse scenario, which is where WOTC finds itself.

I actually am dubious outrage marketing works either. Problem is... Marketing believes it works as it of were a mandate from god.

They believe that any losses they garner will be outweighed by new arrivals attracted by the outrage. This goes back to the edition treadmil surge and why some companies were putting out new editions that seemed hand crafted to piss off fans of the older editions. Or pissed off there was a new edition at all.

Marketing keeps telling the execs that they can recoup the losses in customers. But 4e proved them wrong finally.

We miss the key information: selling trends. We actually don't know the unit sold of every single product, so we cannot correlate money with wokeness (real or just proclamed).