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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: RPGPundit on July 18, 2022, 09:50:15 PM

Title: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 18, 2022, 09:50:15 PM
How generous of WoTC that it gives us DMs permission to still portray NPCs of other cultures, for now. But they have conditions! And those conditions give away how much their wokist ideology is incompatible with RPGs.
#dnd #ttrpg #osr #dnd5e

Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 18, 2022, 10:02:24 PM
How the fuck wouldn't I, as the GM, don't know anything about the cultures of the world I created? I created it! Whatever I say about culture X is true because I say so!

So if I say that culture Y dresses as clowns while sitting in a certain coastal city and drinking their exotic and overpriced non-alcoholic beverages this automatically becomes reality in the game world. It's creation ex nihilo, by the magic of my words.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: HappyDaze on July 19, 2022, 01:03:57 AM
I don't play anything by WotC, but was recently looking at running Free League's Coriolis. It's heavily flavored by a post-Islam Middle Eastern culture (in space!) as envisioned by a Swedish company. Looks really cool to me, and I'm not at all concerned with the fact that I am neither of Middle Eastern descent, nor of Swedish heritage.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Opaopajr on July 19, 2022, 02:54:55 AM
 :D Is this the part where the Dissociative Identity Disorder community helpfully informs WoTC corporate standards about ALL the cultures being IGNORED, and DEPROTAGONIZED!, among the non-sapient flora, fauna, AND inanimae?  ;D

Just trying to be helpful.  8)
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 19, 2022, 08:40:14 AM
WOTC is rapidly drifting further into cult mentality and dogma.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Armchair Gamer on July 19, 2022, 08:59:11 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 19, 2022, 08:40:14 AM
WOTC is rapidly drifting further into cult mentality and dogma.

  WotC has been weird from the beginning; anyone else remember John Tynes' article for Salon? https://t.co/pbbkxNuyQ5

  But I'm also of the opinion that if you don't have a strong philosophical and spiritual grounding, you will most likely get sucked into the spirit of the age. Crux stat dum orbis volvitur.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Banjo Destructo on July 19, 2022, 09:53:51 AM
I love Dungeons and Dragons, that's why I hate WoTC.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: rytrasmi on July 19, 2022, 11:03:33 AM
It's an evil Jedi mind trick! WotC is granting permission using authority they don't have in order to train their customers to believe that they actually have the authority, so they can alter or revoke permission later.

I fully agree that they hate history. They don't understand history and, more importantly, they can't control history. So they hate it and likely fear it as well.

Keep up the good fight. Looking forward to this Polish book you mentioned!
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: VisionStorm on July 19, 2022, 11:48:37 AM
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 19, 2022, 11:03:33 AM
It's an evil Jedi mind trick! WotC is granting permission using authority they don't have in order to train their customers to believe that they actually have the authority, so they can alter or revoke permission later.

I fully agree that they hate history. They don't understand history and, more importantly, they can't control history. So they hate it and likely fear it as well.

Keep up the good fight. Looking forward to this Polish book you mentioned!

"He who controls the past, controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past."

This is where this is all coming from. And I don't think that they're consciously doing it (I don't attribute enough intelligence to these people to either plan nor realize that this is what they're attempting to do), but this is the mindset from where they're coming from. It is the believe that they can change reality by asserting their version into existence.

And since they control the "present" (i.e. the current iteration of D&D's text and the rights for the brand) they believe that this gives them authority to declare what people who play their game are allowed to do with that game. But owning the copyright for the text and the trademark for the brand only grants them the rights to publish works using that brand. It doesn't give them the right to declare what the reality surrounding the game is or what we're allowed to do with it. But they're hoping enough people believe they do, because unfortunately enough people are stupid enough to believe it.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 11:53:51 AM
This is so stupid that my brain is melting trying to make sense of this
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: I HATE THE DEMIURGE I HATE THE DEMIURGE on July 19, 2022, 12:59:30 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 19, 2022, 11:48:37 AM
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 19, 2022, 11:03:33 AM
It's an evil Jedi mind trick! WotC is granting permission using authority they don't have in order to train their customers to believe that they actually have the authority, so they can alter or revoke permission later.

I fully agree that they hate history. They don't understand history and, more importantly, they can't control history. So they hate it and likely fear it as well.

Keep up the good fight. Looking forward to this Polish book you mentioned!

"He who controls the past, controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past."

This is where this is all coming from. And I don't think that they're consciously doing it (I don't attribute enough intelligence to these people to either plan nor realize that this is what they're attempting to do), but this is the mindset from where they're coming from. It is the believe that they can change reality by asserting their version into existence.

And since they control the "present" (i.e. the current iteration of D&D's text and the rights for the brand) they believe that this gives them authority to declare what people who play their game are allowed to do with that game. But owning the copyright for the text and the trademark for the brand only grants them the rights to publish works using that brand. It doesn't give them the right to declare what the reality surrounding the game is or what we're allowed to do with it. But they're hoping enough people believe they do, because unfortunately enough people are stupid enough to believe it.

Oh no, they know EXACTLY what they're doing.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: THE_Leopold on July 19, 2022, 04:01:45 PM
I control who plays at my table and who I spend time gaming with. If there is an individual who thinks the way WOTC thinks they are not welcome at my table and can go find a game elsewhere. 

I will not be held to an impossible and highly illogical standard for my fantasy make believe game of treasure hunt with elves and fire breathing lizards.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 19, 2022, 04:15:24 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 19, 2022, 04:01:45 PM
I control who plays at my table and who I spend time gaming with. If there is an individual who thinks the way WOTC thinks they are not welcome at my table and can go find a game elsewhere. 

I will not be held to an impossible and highly illogical standard for my fantasy make believe game of treasure hunt with elves and fire breathing lizards.
This.

I run my game the way I want to. That may not be to everyone's liking. Heck, I do some things that even folks here might not like.

I think WotC is trying to control the 'official' circuit, i.e. Adventurer's League. Which seems highly dubious, as I doubt AL games outnumber 'bunch of friends playing D&D' games. I'm mystified as to why they think this is going to work. As I've stated before, once the material is out there, there's no way to control it.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 19, 2022, 04:21:23 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?
Well, for the latter, I expect you might find yourself blackballed from 'official' AL games. Like I said, I think this is WotC's play to exert more influence over said gaming.

As to the former? Probably resembles TBP complaints. Doesn't matter if it wasn't racist if the complainant was offended.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: THE_Leopold on July 19, 2022, 04:25:57 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 19, 2022, 04:15:24 PM

I think WotC is trying to control the 'official' circuit, i.e. Adventurer's League. Which seems highly dubious, as I doubt AL games outnumber 'bunch of friends playing D&D' games. I'm mystified as to why they think this is going to work. As I've stated before, once the material is out there, there's no way to control it.

this is more likely as Paizo did it with their Circuit games with using the X-Card and other Safe Space malarky.

Pathfinder died not long after that.  You can still goto pickup Gen Con games and have fun if you are willing to not be offended by every little thing that exists in this world.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: rytrasmi on July 19, 2022, 04:56:54 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 19, 2022, 04:15:24 PM
Heck, I do some things that even folks here might not like.
It's a witch! Burn him!!
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: DocJones on July 19, 2022, 06:11:58 PM
So my players wearing blackface is right out then?
:D
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: DocJones on July 19, 2022, 06:14:29 PM
I played a gun fighter in a Deadlands campaign that did both a southern drawl and stuttered.
The stuttering annoyed the rest of the group so bad, I dropped it after the first session.

Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Crusader X on July 19, 2022, 06:25:32 PM
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on July 19, 2022, 09:53:51 AM
I love Dungeons and Dragons, that's why I hate WoTC.

I want this on a t-shirt
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: thedungeondelver on July 19, 2022, 06:52:28 PM
I'll do what I want.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Jason Coplen on July 19, 2022, 07:17:17 PM
Dwarves ain't pussies, so go ahead and use them.

But they're Texans, no Scots. ;)
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Eirikrautha on July 19, 2022, 07:36:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Should be easy to prove.  Pundit purports to quote directly from the source material.   Check the source and tell us if he made up the quotes. Simple.  Of course, you would have to engage with his points, as opposed to trying to denigrate them by association.  That's the way the woke do things... find one error and then assert that everything said in the past, present, and future is wrong due to that singular error.

So, did Pundit make up the quotes as you are asserting?  Because if you aren't asserting that, then why bring it up (other that to smear something factual with a previous error that has nothing to do with it)?  That's just sleazy.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Timothe on July 19, 2022, 07:45:01 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on July 19, 2022, 07:17:17 PM
Dwarves ain't pussies, so go ahead and use them.

But they're Texans, no Scots. ;)

Gygax gave them German accents in Saga of Old City, but I do remember a Scottish Dwarf in one of the Diablo games.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 08:02:34 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 19, 2022, 07:36:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Should be easy to prove.  Pundit purports to quote directly from the source material.   Check the source and tell us if he made up the quotes. Simple.  Of course, you would have to engage with his points, as opposed to trying to denigrate them by association.  That's the way the woke do things... find one error and then assert that everything said in the past, present, and future is wrong due to that singular error.

So, did Pundit make up the quotes as you are asserting?  Because if you aren't asserting that, then why bring it up (other that to smear something factual with a previous error that has nothing to do with it)?  That's just sleazy.

I don't own Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, so I'm not in a position to check right now. Maybe I'll pick it up some time over the next week, in which case I'll report back then. If someone else has access to it and can show the actual text, I'd be curious. Otherwise, it'll wait until I can get it via my local game store.

His wheelchair claims weren't just minor "whoops" errors or minor nitpicks. They were massively wrong. Not only did Candlekeep Mysteries not have a combat wheelchair item, it didn't have any wheelchairs at all, nor were any adventures wheelchair accessible. In general, someone's past track record of accuracy is relevant to how reliable one should consider them.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Jam The MF on July 19, 2022, 08:05:36 PM
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on July 19, 2022, 09:53:51 AM
I love Dungeons and Dragons, that's why I hate WoTC.

Well said.  They did some good things......years ago.  But what have they done for the last few years now?  They have pissed on everything I liked about D&D.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Wisithir on July 19, 2022, 08:54:38 PM
RPG Systems are tools. WotC can can no more grant or deny a GM a way of running a game than a tool manufacture can dictate what kind of wood a carpenter may cut with the saw.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: rytrasmi on July 19, 2022, 09:54:12 PM
Quote from: Wisithir on July 19, 2022, 08:54:38 PM
RPG Systems are tools. WotC can can no more grant or deny a GM a way of running a game than a tool manufacture can dictate what kind of wood a carpenter may cut with the saw.
This is a great analogy that illustrates the brainwashing at hand.

Label on the saw: Dear Saw Owner: This saw will safely cut ash, pine, and beech.

Experienced saw owner: Hmm. That's a weird thing to say. I know this saw has 1 mm coined carbide teeth, so it should cut oak just fine. Here goes.

Novice saw owner: There must be a good reason for this, so let's do what it says.

It's a subtle usurpation of authority. It raises doubt in young minds.

Perhaps the saw maker wants to sell a special oak saw to people who don't know any better.

Perhaps WotC wants to position themselves as the "safe" option and cast doubt on other games. Or perhaps they're just woke wankers.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Shasarak on July 19, 2022, 10:04:58 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on July 19, 2022, 07:17:17 PM
Dwarves ain't pussies, so go ahead and use them.

But they're Texans, no Scots. ;)

A Texan Dwarf?  Only on the new LotR series I think.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Krugus on July 19, 2022, 10:22:19 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 19, 2022, 10:04:58 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on July 19, 2022, 07:17:17 PM
Dwarves ain't pussies, so go ahead and use them.

But they're Texans, no Scots. ;)

A Texan Dwarf?  Only on the new LotR series I think.

No those are Seattle Dwarves not Texan in the new fake LotR series.   Get it right! sheesh :p
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 20, 2022, 04:22:52 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 08:02:34 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 19, 2022, 07:36:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Should be easy to prove.  Pundit purports to quote directly from the source material.   Check the source and tell us if he made up the quotes. Simple.  Of course, you would have to engage with his points, as opposed to trying to denigrate them by association.  That's the way the woke do things... find one error and then assert that everything said in the past, present, and future is wrong due to that singular error.

So, did Pundit make up the quotes as you are asserting?  Because if you aren't asserting that, then why bring it up (other that to smear something factual with a previous error that has nothing to do with it)?  That's just sleazy.

I don't own Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, so I'm not in a position to check right now. Maybe I'll pick it up some time over the next week, in which case I'll report back then. If someone else has access to it and can show the actual text, I'd be curious. Otherwise, it'll wait until I can get it via my local game store.

His wheelchair claims weren't just minor "whoops" errors or minor nitpicks. They were massively wrong. Not only did Candlekeep Mysteries not have a combat wheelchair item, it didn't have any wheelchairs at all, nor were any adventures wheelchair accessible. In general, someone's past track record of accuracy is relevant to how reliable one should consider them.

What happened is that WOTC lied in their promoting of something. Again. And of course Pundit and others fell for it and gave WOTC free advertising.
And odds are Citadel was the same. I have not had a chance to glance at it. Sure as hell arent giving money to WOTC for treating minorities as objects. Again.
And of course the usual suspects were making claims and going on about those horrible white mans making a game and how completely tokenizing minorities for product placement is a great advancement for justice against those nasty white mans. Because before WOTC no minority was allowed to play! Or some other made up nonesense as usual. Sorry grifters. I've been playing RPGs just fine from the get go and before the get go even.
https://www.kuow.org/stories/d-d-s-radiant-citadel-changes-the-game-for-bipoc-players-bc2c (https://www.kuow.org/stories/d-d-s-radiant-citadel-changes-the-game-for-bipoc-players-bc2c)

But this new claim was not in the promotion sooooo. Odds climb that it actually is in the damn book because its exactly what WOTC would do. We'll see soon enough Im sure.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:39:03 AM
And in this current video, I was literally reading from a screenshot of the book in the video. Unless it was created as a very clever fraud, and then disseminated throughout twitter and promoted by the woke mobs, I'm pretty sure it's legit.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 20, 2022, 07:43:33 AM
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 19, 2022, 09:54:12 PM
Quote from: Wisithir on July 19, 2022, 08:54:38 PM
RPG Systems are tools. WotC can can no more grant or deny a GM a way of running a game than a tool manufacture can dictate what kind of wood a carpenter may cut with the saw.
This is a great analogy that illustrates the brainwashing at hand.

Label on the saw: Dear Saw Owner: This saw will safely cut ash, pine, and beech.

Experienced saw owner: Hmm. That's a weird thing to say. I know this saw has 1 mm coined carbide teeth, so it should cut oak just fine. Here goes.

Novice saw owner: There must be a good reason for this, so let's do what it says.

It's a subtle usurpation of authority. It raises doubt in young minds.

Perhaps the saw maker wants to sell a special oak saw to people who don't know any better.

Perhaps WotC wants to position themselves as the "safe" option and cast doubt on other games. Or perhaps they're just woke wankers.

Probably the final two options and the one above that. WOTC is as crooked as it gets and they have ripped off other companies in the past and will do it again Im sure if given a chance. So pulling a Nintendo maneuver to weaponize moral outrage against a competitir is not outside the insane possiblity. And they are also woke wankers so its double the fun.

And like Nintendo they will wait a bit. Then turn around and make "adult" RPG products to show how more edgy than edgy they are. Elmara paints her nails black! Ghasparoonies! Mordenkwinen comes out of the closet and is dating Strahd! Get thee to a fainting couch! Mystra champions gnay gnome rights! Wheres a mimic when you need one???

Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: The Spaniard on July 20, 2022, 08:12:49 AM
I don't purchase or play anything from them, but the bottom line is I play my game the way I feel like playing it.  I develop the campaign world to suit me and my players.  I have neither the need nor desire to adhere to how "they" say it should be. 
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: MeganovaStella on July 20, 2022, 08:46:48 AM
what were the regulations exactly? currently cannot access youtube
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 10:04:53 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

"Guys, guys, I just repeated the lie, it's not like I was lying!"
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: MeganovaStella on July 20, 2022, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 10:04:53 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

"Guys, guys, I just repeated the lie, it's not like I was lying!"
Book hasn't even come out yet.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: THE_Leopold on July 20, 2022, 10:25:02 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 19, 2022, 10:04:58 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on July 19, 2022, 07:17:17 PM
Dwarves ain't pussies, so go ahead and use them.

But they're Texans, no Scots. ;)

A Texan Dwarf?  Only on the new LotR series I think.

My Dwarves are German and Chinese. Elves Portuguese.  Gnomes Korean. Hobgoblin's Japanese. Common is English. Undercommon is Swedish.

Seeing as how I'm None of those and speak 2 languages among the many I listed. Not a single one of my incredibly diverse table, several who speak those languages fluently, give a damn about my 'acting'.  In fact they find it more Inclusive that I'm trying new things using languages they are familiar with and find it enjoyable I'm bringing a different spin on the usual tropes in my fantasy make believe game that involves chance and math.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 10:26:18 AM
Quote from: DocJones on July 19, 2022, 06:11:58 PM
So my players wearing blackface is right out then?
:D

Blackface is always bad. 
Drowface is fine, just so long as the drow isn't black.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: THE_Leopold on July 20, 2022, 10:27:16 AM
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 10:26:18 AM
Quote from: DocJones on July 19, 2022, 06:11:58 PM
So my players wearing blackface is right out then?
:D

Blackface is always bad. 
Drowface is fine, just so long as the drow isn't black.

That's quite literally a paradox.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 10:43:51 AM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 19, 2022, 04:01:45 PM
I control who plays at my table and who I spend time gaming with. If there is an individual who thinks the way WOTC thinks they are not welcome at my table and can go find a game elsewhere. 

I will not be held to an impossible and highly illogical standard for my fantasy make believe game of treasure hunt with elves and fire breathing lizards.

But it is still your responsibility to consider the feelings of all the people who -don't- play at your table.  You might say something somewhere at some point that could upset them, and they'd stop playing elf games because of it.  Or what if you were desperate and tried a pick up game with strangers?  Twitter proves those places are flooded by transracial, non-gender conforming, people who swear they are really reincarnated elves.  It's crucial you humiliate yourselves for them, and not simply walk away as they spend the first fifteen minutes of game time anxiously listing their triggers as they simultaneously try to nervously laugh off said triggers.  As their psyches are very fragile, why won't you consider the fun of these hypothetical adult-children superior to your own?!?!   

Seriously though, I do honestly wonder how much of stuff like this is less "we genuinely care about the feelings of people who will never interact with you" and more "we have a bunch of Twitterbots to constantly keep appeased, and if appeasing them means we make a little blurb about X-cards or how not all Vistani are evil or how orcs represent black people, we don't mind.  Just keep buying our stuff!" 

(And after some of the emotional outbursts I've seen regarding Fate of Cthulhu and the Ravenloft Campaign guide, I feel like there can be as much over reactionary screeching from the grognards as there is from the danger hairs.  "See this molehill!!!  It's massive!  Massive!"  Beam in your own eye battling with monsters and all that.)
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 10:56:09 AM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on July 20, 2022, 10:27:16 AM
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 10:26:18 AM
Quote from: DocJones on July 19, 2022, 06:11:58 PM
So my players wearing blackface is right out then?
:D

Blackface is always bad. 
Drowface is fine, just so long as the drow isn't black.

That's quite literally a paradox.

Depends on your source material.  Sometimes drow are depicted as blue or purple or gray, sometimes as black.  Dig around and you can find brown drow and albino drow too (with albinism apparently more common than the norm).

It's also me poking fun at that Community episode that was pulled by the streamers for Cheng dressing up as a drow and one of the black students calling it a hate crime.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: VisionStorm on July 20, 2022, 11:11:20 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 10:04:53 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

"Guys, guys, I just repeated the lie, it's not like I was lying!"

Except that IIRC, the article Pundit was quoting in that video was published BEFORE the product was released, so there was nothing to verify, even if being expected to verify the validity of something that someone else said before commenting on the fact that they said it was a realistic or fair standard, or the same thing as lying yourself for repeating it in the context of commenting on it. Which is it isn't. But you guys knew that, you're just grasping at straws for partisan and disingenuous reasons.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 20, 2022, 11:32:20 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 20, 2022, 11:11:20 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 10:04:53 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

"Guys, guys, I just repeated the lie, it's not like I was lying!"

Except that IIRC, the article Pundit was quoting in that video was published BEFORE the product was released, so there was nothing to verify, even if being expected to verify the validity of something that someone else said before commenting on the fact that they said it was a realistic or fair standard, or the same thing as lying yourself for repeating it in the context of commenting on it. Which is it isn't. But you guys knew that, you're just grasping at straws for partisan and disingenuous reasons.
Well, it IS Tubesnake. Being a dishonest, lying cur is just second nature to him.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 11:37:36 AM
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 10:26:18 AM
Quote from: DocJones on July 19, 2022, 06:11:58 PM
So my players wearing blackface is right out then?
:D

Blackface is always bad. 
Drowface is fine, just so long as the drow isn't black.
When I visited Scotland, I learned that blackface is acceptable...for sheep.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 11:45:42 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 20, 2022, 11:11:20 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 10:04:53 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

"Guys, guys, I just repeated the lie, it's not like I was lying!"

Except that IIRC, the article Pundit was quoting in that video was published BEFORE the product was released, so there was nothing to verify, even if being expected to verify the validity of something that someone else said before commenting on the fact that they said it was a realistic or fair standard, or the same thing as lying yourself for repeating it in the context of commenting on it. Which is it isn't. But you guys knew that, you're just grasping at straws for partisan and disingenuous reasons.

Nice strawman, dipshit. No one is suggesting isn't any of what you hyperbolically posited. Just, maybe, you know, take a little responsibility for posting false info and maybe correct the record afterwards, instead of trying to deflect blame by spastically bloviating, "Guys, guys, you know those lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags? You know, the ones I'm always accusing of being lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags? They LIED about there being wheelchair ramps in  Candlekeep! Can you believe it? I know, I was surprised, too! Who knew they were such lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags?"

Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: tenbones on July 20, 2022, 12:14:08 PM
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 10:26:18 AM
Quote from: DocJones on July 19, 2022, 06:11:58 PM
So my players wearing blackface is right out then?
:D

Blackface is always bad. 
Drowface is fine, just so long as the drow isn't black.

You mean like in the Menzoberanzzan Boxset where the Drow were colored a nice chocolate brown?
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:13:39 PM
The combat wheelchair thing is a tempest in a teapot. It's a niche idea that spun some drama that got blown out of all proportion.

Does the combat wheelchair mark the final, irretrievable decent of D&D into the pit of wokeness? No.

Is the combat wheelchair widely used by players and promoted by game designers? No.

Is the combat wheelchair a well-thought out idea? No.

Is the combat wheelchair ridiculously polarizing. Yes.

The truth of the matter is thus:

1. Most GMs who post here would let a player play a crippled PC. I did once and it was interesting and fun. The guy started off normal but suffered a beat down that ended with him paralyzed. He continued the adventure mostly riding a donkey and getting carried sometimes by other PCs. Use a chariot, magic floating wotsit, or -gasp- a wheelchair if you want. Who fucking cares what you do in your game. 

2. There are many wheelchair athletes that could beat the living shit out of most posters on this forum. So a combat wheelchair is not a terrible idea in itself. It just doesn't fit in a world with stairs and ladders everywhere and magical healing. Unless the person can't afford such healing or can't afford a mule to ride around. Or unless, unless, unless, etc etc. It's exceedingly niche and there are many other more practical and verisimilar solutions in D&D and similar settings. Hence, the combat wheelchair is rightly derided as a ham-fisted and patronizing signal of inclusion.

3. Candlekeep has one dungeon that uses ramps instead of stairs. It also has a chamber where gravity doesn't apply, so you can float. The adventure includes a lot of mild body horror type stuff. There is no mention of wheelchairs or why ramps instead of stairs. It was written by someone who uses a wheelchair. Big woop. If you ran this adventure without knowing of the "controversy" you'd be hard-pressed to notice that the dungeon was wheelchair accessible.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 01:16:23 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:13:39 PM
The combat wheelchair thing is a tempest in a teapot. It's a niche idea that spun some drama that got blown out of all proportion.

Does the combat wheelchair mark the final, irretrievable decent of D&D into the pit of wokeness? No.

Is the combat wheelchair widely used by players and promoted by game designers? No.

Is the combat wheelchair a well-thought out idea? No.

Is the combat wheelchair ridiculously polarizing. Yes.

The truth of the matter is thus:

1. Most GMs who post here would let a player play a crippled PC. I did once and it was interesting and fun. The guy started off normal but suffered a beat down that ended with him paralyzed. He continued the adventure mostly riding a donkey and getting carried sometimes by other PCs. Use a chariot, magic floating wotsit, or -gasp- a wheelchair if you want. Who fucking cares what you do in your game. 

2. There are many wheelchair athletes that could beat the living shit out of most posters on this forum. So a combat wheelchair is not a terrible idea in itself. It just doesn't fit in a world with stairs and ladders everywhere and magical healing. Unless the person can't afford such healing or can't afford a mule to ride around. Or unless, unless, unless, etc etc. It's exceedingly niche and there are many other more practical and verisimilar solutions in D&D and similar settings. Hence, the combat wheelchair is rightly derided as a ham-fisted and patronizing signal of inclusion.

3. Candlekeep has one dungeon that uses ramps instead of stairs. It also has a chamber where gravity doesn't apply, so you can float. The adventure includes a lot of mild body horror type stuff. There is no mention of wheelchairs or why ramps instead of stairs. It was written by someone who uses a wheelchair. Big woop. If you ran this adventure without knowing of the "controversy" you'd be hard-pressed to notice that the dungeon was wheelchair accessible.

Yeah, but when your whole schtick is "pretending the sky is falling so you can sell umbrellas..." I mean, this thread is yet another example of that. Describing DM advice as "Regulations" is a perfect example of Pundit's hyperbolic grifting. But I can't really blame him, as the posters here line up to lap that shit right up.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:30:49 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 01:16:23 PM
Yeah, but when your whole schtick is "pretending the sky is falling so you can sell umbrellas..." I mean, this thread is yet another example of that. Describing DM advice as "Regulations" is a perfect example of Pundit's hyperbolic grifting. But I can't really blame him, as the posters here line up to lap that shit right up.
It cuts the other way, too. WotC got a widely disseminated puff piece about the "wheelchair accessible dungeon" that no doubt helped promote Candlekeep. They were perfectly happy to promote the book based on notions of inclusion, but the follow through was entirely different (no mention of wheelchairs or the reason for the ramps in the book itself). It turned out to be empty tokenism for promotional purposes only.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Abraxus on July 20, 2022, 01:49:32 PM
It's no so much the combat wheelchair so much that the item itself is way overpowered if the DM allows a player who uses it to upgrade it fully.

Flight at will, AC bonus, attack bonus. Screw that you can fly at will it takes a move action to control it at all times.

It's being called an ableist and hating disabled people if not every section is of the entire world is not wheelchair accessible. I'm sorry but no not every monster or NPC is going to build their buildings to code.

As for the para-athletes and chairs yeah they can kick my ass most likely yet many here make them out to be the norm rather than the exception. I watched a documentary on 9-11 where there was a woman in a wheelchair whom two guys carried down a bunch of stairs as the elevators were out. They made it outside yet both men looked like they wen to hell and back ten times. So it's not easy even for two people to carry someone in a wheelchair down multiple flights of stairs.

You want to play a disabled character in my game go for it. Expect both the positives and drawbacks of playing such a character. Absolutely non-negotiable or up for any form of debate. Or you can find another table to play it.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 02:03:16 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:30:49 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 01:16:23 PM
Yeah, but when your whole schtick is "pretending the sky is falling so you can sell umbrellas..." I mean, this thread is yet another example of that. Describing DM advice as "Regulations" is a perfect example of Pundit's hyperbolic grifting. But I can't really blame him, as the posters here line up to lap that shit right up.
It cuts the other way, too. WotC got a widely disseminated puff piece about the "wheelchair accessible dungeon" that no doubt helped promote Candlekeep. They were perfectly happy to promote the book based on notions of inclusion, but the follow through was entirely different (no mention of wheelchairs or the reason for the ramps in the book itself). It turned out to be empty tokenism for promotional purposes only.

The Polygon article, like all the other articles I've seen, states that only one of the adventures in Candlekeep will be wheelchair accessible. So, I'm not sure where the unfounded rumor that all of the dungeons in Candlekeep Mysteries were going to have ramps got started, but so far, all signs point to Pundie.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 02:26:15 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:30:49 PM
It cuts the other way, too. WotC got a widely disseminated puff piece about the "wheelchair accessible dungeon" that no doubt helped promote Candlekeep. They were perfectly happy to promote the book based on notions of inclusion, but the follow through was entirely different (no mention of wheelchairs or the reason for the ramps in the book itself). It turned out to be empty tokenism for promotional purposes only.

The dungeon is an Egyptian-themed tomb - which fits with many other Egyptian-themed elements of the adventure (called "The Canopic Being"). Historically, many Egyptian tombs (like the pyramids at Giza) had ramps rather than stairs. So it fits thematically and in-world. It was just marketed out of proportion with what is actually there - which is par for the course in marketing.

The author of that dungeon did claim that it was wheelchair accessible prior to publication. As published, though, the dungeon is accessed by a ladder. That may have been a later editorial change.

While Polygon (among others) did tout the wheelchair accessibility of this 1 out of 17 dungeons, Pundit's claims went way beyond what was claimed there - saying that every dungeon since was wheelchair accessible, and that Sara Thompson's homebrew "combat wheelchair" was in the book. Polygon mentioned the combat wheelchair, but didn't claim it was in Candlekeep or any other WotC book.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 02:52:39 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 02:26:15 PM
The dungeon is an Egyptian-themed tomb - which fits with many other Egyptian-themed elements of the adventure (called "The Canopic Being"). Historically, many Egyptian tombs (like the pyramids at Giza) had ramps rather than stairs. So it fits thematically and in-world. It was just marketed out of proportion with what is actually there - which is par for the course in marketing.

The author of that dungeon did claim that it was wheelchair accessible prior to publication. As published, though, the dungeon is accessed by a ladder. That may have been a later editorial change.
I know. I've read it. I missed the ladder, though. It fits thematically, agreed.

There are other types of dungeons that would also not have stairs/ladders, notably abandoned mines. Also, if you're and old coot wizard constructing a heavily trapped tomb to be buried in, why would you include stairs? You're old and rich and you're paying for all this shit, so fuck stairs.

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 02:26:15 PM
It was just marketed out of proportion with what is actually there - which is par for the course in marketing.
...
Pundit's claims went way beyond what was claimed there - saying that every dungeon since was wheelchair accessible, and that Sara Thompson's homebrew "combat wheelchair" was in the book.
If you're asking me to weigh a little hyperbole vs using disabled people to market stuff, well, there's no comparison. Tokenism is cynical and despicable.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: VisionStorm on July 20, 2022, 04:14:06 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 11:45:42 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 20, 2022, 11:11:20 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 10:04:53 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

"Guys, guys, I just repeated the lie, it's not like I was lying!"

Except that IIRC, the article Pundit was quoting in that video was published BEFORE the product was released, so there was nothing to verify, even if being expected to verify the validity of something that someone else said before commenting on the fact that they said it was a realistic or fair standard, or the same thing as lying yourself for repeating it in the context of commenting on it. Which is it isn't. But you guys knew that, you're just grasping at straws for partisan and disingenuous reasons.

Nice strawman, dipshit. No one is suggesting isn't any of what you hyperbolically posited. Just, maybe, you know, take a little responsibility for posting false info and maybe correct the record afterwards, instead of trying to deflect blame by spastically bloviating, "Guys, guys, you know those lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags? You know, the ones I'm always accusing of being lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags? They LIED about there being wheelchair ramps in  Candlekeep! Can you believe it? I know, I was surprised, too! Who knew they were such lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags?"

Except that you're not guilty of spreading "false info" for simply commenting on something that someone else said that later turns out to be false AFTER the fact. And you're not really responsible for making clarifications about it either, specially when you're not even the one making the original reporting on it, but merely commenting on the fact that someone else reported on it. The idea that you're supposed to keep track of everything that SOMEONE else said that you happen to have commented on at some point to make corrections on THEIR mistakes if they later turn out the to been BS is fucking ABSURD. They're not even your mistakes (or Pundit's in the case)! You merely mentioned that they said this stuff, WHICH THEY FUCKING DID!

And note that the ONLY person you're holding here responsible for this "disinformation" is the guy who commented on it. Not the website who originally reported it (who I assure you made ZERO fucking corrections either) or the guy from WotC who said the stuff that later turned out to be false, but the ONE guy who happened to have commented on it at three degrees of separation from the actual source of the "lie" (if we assume it's really a lie; maybe WotC originally planned on mentioning the wheelchairs, but later pulling them out at the last minute before publication) and happens to be your political adversary. How CONVINIENT. It's almost like this is about taking political potshots and not about real concerns about truth or clarity.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 06:03:41 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 11:45:42 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 20, 2022, 11:11:20 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 10:04:53 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

"Guys, guys, I just repeated the lie, it's not like I was lying!"

Except that IIRC, the article Pundit was quoting in that video was published BEFORE the product was released, so there was nothing to verify, even if being expected to verify the validity of something that someone else said before commenting on the fact that they said it was a realistic or fair standard, or the same thing as lying yourself for repeating it in the context of commenting on it. Which is it isn't. But you guys knew that, you're just grasping at straws for partisan and disingenuous reasons.

Nice strawman, dipshit. No one is suggesting isn't any of what you hyperbolically posited. Just, maybe, you know, take a little responsibility for posting false info and maybe correct the record afterwards, instead of trying to deflect blame by spastically bloviating, "Guys, guys, you know those lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags? You know, the ones I'm always accusing of being lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags? They LIED about there being wheelchair ramps in  Candlekeep! Can you believe it? I know, I was surprised, too! Who knew they were such lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags?"

No, really, why are you such a lying dishonest wokist shitbag?
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 02:26:15 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:30:49 PM
It cuts the other way, too. WotC got a widely disseminated puff piece about the "wheelchair accessible dungeon" that no doubt helped promote Candlekeep. They were perfectly happy to promote the book based on notions of inclusion, but the follow through was entirely different (no mention of wheelchairs or the reason for the ramps in the book itself). It turned out to be empty tokenism for promotional purposes only.

The dungeon is an Egyptian-themed tomb - which fits with many other Egyptian-themed elements of the adventure (called "The Canopic Being"). Historically, many Egyptian tombs (like the pyramids at Giza) had ramps rather than stairs. So it fits thematically and in-world. It was just marketed out of proportion with what is actually there - which is par for the course in marketing.

The author of that dungeon did claim that it was wheelchair accessible prior to publication. As published, though, the dungeon is accessed by a ladder. That may have been a later editorial change.

While Polygon (among others) did tout the wheelchair accessibility of this 1 out of 17 dungeons, Pundit's claims went way beyond what was claimed there - saying that every dungeon since was wheelchair accessible, and that Sara Thompson's homebrew "combat wheelchair" was in the book. Polygon mentioned the combat wheelchair, but didn't claim it was in Candlekeep or any other WotC book.

Those were all things that wokists on Twitter were stating and CHEERING about. I was reporting on their statements.

As for Radiant Citadel, which is the topic of this thread, it's pretty clear that I WAS RIGHT about the ongoing book-by-book increase in the level of Wokism. This one directly segregates caucasians entirely, defunds the police, and creates a multiculti paradise that one of the authors themselves states is meant to just be a fantasy version of New York (obviously not the REAL NYC, but rather the Progressive Utopian NYC that exists in leftists minds as the perfect city-state of their 'values').

Also, I've been told that the adventures are garbage, mostly single-combat encounters as lip service with the only real goal to 'present' a culture based on the dumbest stereotype mostly second-generation immigrant kids who barely speak their ancestral language much less known anything real about the culture they're writing about have dribbled out. It's pathetic. The "Venezuelan" adventure writer brags that her adventure has 'arepas'. Why? Because Leftists are massive racists and think of every ethnicity as a stereotype, usually focused around food (Breakfast Tacos, anyone?).  No mention of course of the setting having millions of people fleeing it because leftists turned it into a socialist shithole dictatorship, right?

Everything I predicted about D&D becoming increasingly more woke HAS COME TRUE, book by book.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 20, 2022, 06:19:33 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 02:26:15 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:30:49 PM
It cuts the other way, too. WotC got a widely disseminated puff piece about the "wheelchair accessible dungeon" that no doubt helped promote Candlekeep. They were perfectly happy to promote the book based on notions of inclusion, but the follow through was entirely different (no mention of wheelchairs or the reason for the ramps in the book itself). It turned out to be empty tokenism for promotional purposes only.

The dungeon is an Egyptian-themed tomb - which fits with many other Egyptian-themed elements of the adventure (called "The Canopic Being"). Historically, many Egyptian tombs (like the pyramids at Giza) had ramps rather than stairs. So it fits thematically and in-world. It was just marketed out of proportion with what is actually there - which is par for the course in marketing.

The author of that dungeon did claim that it was wheelchair accessible prior to publication. As published, though, the dungeon is accessed by a ladder. That may have been a later editorial change.

While Polygon (among others) did tout the wheelchair accessibility of this 1 out of 17 dungeons, Pundit's claims went way beyond what was claimed there - saying that every dungeon since was wheelchair accessible, and that Sara Thompson's homebrew "combat wheelchair" was in the book. Polygon mentioned the combat wheelchair, but didn't claim it was in Candlekeep or any other WotC book.

Those were all things that wokists on Twitter were stating and CHEERING about. I was reporting on their statements.

As for Radiant Citadel, which is the topic of this thread, it's pretty clear that I WAS RIGHT about the ongoing book-by-book increase in the level of Wokism. This one directly segregates caucasians entirely, defunds the police, and creates a multiculti paradise that one of the authors themselves states is meant to just be a fantasy version of New York (obviously not the REAL NYC, but rather the Progressive Utopian NYC that exists in leftists minds as the perfect city-state of their 'values').

I know exactly how that looks

Because to the woke this is what Asgard looks like if the Asgardians were black.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 20, 2022, 06:23:17 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:13:39 PM
The combat wheelchair thing is a tempest in a teapot. It's a niche idea that spun some drama that got blown out of all proportion.

Does the combat wheelchair mark the final, irretrievable decent of D&D into the pit of wokeness? No.

Is the combat wheelchair widely used by players and promoted by game designers? No.

Is the combat wheelchair a well-thought out idea? No.

Is the combat wheelchair ridiculously polarizing. Yes.

The truth of the matter is thus:

1. Most GMs who post here would let a player play a crippled PC. I did once and it was interesting and fun. The guy started off normal but suffered a beat down that ended with him paralyzed. He continued the adventure mostly riding a donkey and getting carried sometimes by other PCs. Use a chariot, magic floating wotsit, or -gasp- a wheelchair if you want. Who fucking cares what you do in your game. 

2. There are many wheelchair athletes that could beat the living shit out of most posters on this forum. So a combat wheelchair is not a terrible idea in itself. It just doesn't fit in a world with stairs and ladders everywhere and magical healing. Unless the person can't afford such healing or can't afford a mule to ride around. Or unless, unless, unless, etc etc. It's exceedingly niche and there are many other more practical and verisimilar solutions in D&D and similar settings. Hence, the combat wheelchair is rightly derided as a ham-fisted and patronizing signal of inclusion.

3. Candlekeep has one dungeon that uses ramps instead of stairs. It also has a chamber where gravity doesn't apply, so you can float. The adventure includes a lot of mild body horror type stuff. There is no mention of wheelchairs or why ramps instead of stairs. It was written by someone who uses a wheelchair. Big woop. If you ran this adventure without knowing of the "controversy" you'd be hard-pressed to notice that the dungeon was wheelchair accessible.

And we all know that contrary to the general population, wheelchair bound athletes aren't the exception but the norm among wheelchair bound people...

Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Valatar on July 20, 2022, 06:26:20 PM
Pundit being an unreliable source on account of quoting other people who turned out to be wrong is really not relevant in this situation, given that he seems to have access to the book in question this time.  And while people can certainly say, "Oh, Wizards is just providing helpful guidelines!", you can bet every dollar you own that if some streaming game shows the DM breaking one of those 'guidelines', they will immediately be pilloried for it.  It isn't just a guideline anymore if there's a person slapping a cudgel into their palm behind you.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 20, 2022, 06:30:57 PM
Quote from: Valatar on July 20, 2022, 06:26:20 PM
Pundit being an unreliable source on account of quoting other people who turned out to be wrong is really not relevant in this situation, given that he seems to have access to the book in question this time.  And while people can certainly say, "Oh, Wizards is just providing helpful guidelines!", you can bet every dollar you own that if some streaming game shows the DM breaking one of those 'guidelines', they will immediately be pilloried for it.  It isn't just a guideline anymore if there's a person slapping a cudgel into their palm behind you.

And conventions will enforce it.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 08:07:40 PM
OK, I've picked up Radiant Citadel. The quotes that Pundit is using are close to the text - but first of all, the missing context is that all of what he quotes is from a subsection clearly entitled "Online and Streamed Games". I take it this isn't advice for D&D games in general, but for D&D games made public over Youtube like Critical Role, Drunks & Dragons, and so forth. Those shows are a public face of the game, and a number of them do feature players in costume, doing make-up and/or accents, and so forth.

He has some minor misquotes at a few points. He skips over "take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears" and instead jumps to the next paragraph. He quotes "Do not lean into stereotypes or clothing with real-world significance" - but the actual sentence is "Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world *religious* significance".

Here's the full subsection:

QuoteOnline and Streamed Games. Just as you don't have to breathe fire in real life to play a dragonborn in D&D, you don't need to be from the cultures that inspired the adventures in this book to play characters from them. However, take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears.

One person's culture isn't another's costume. If you dress up, simple outfits are best. Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world religious significance. Instead, focus on "everyday wear" from the cultures you're exploring. Don't change your skin color, alter your features, or emulate hair styles you wouldn't normally have to appear like a different real-world ethnicity. Similarly, avoid mocking real-world accents in your role-play.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 20, 2022, 08:18:34 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

At the time there was no way to tell it was not true. And WOTC themselves have more than once lied about book content through 5es run.
This is why every time WOTC or one of their staff make a claim. I wait and see what the actual product is because odds are it aint.

So yes in Pundits defense he got baited that time and fell for it. So did everyone else for a while. And the combat wheelchair did show up. Just not in mainstream D&D. It was added to Idle Champions round the same time. To "make D&D more welcoming". And that is exactly where I quit playing IC:FR and haven't touched it since.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: SHARK on July 20, 2022, 08:32:46 PM
Greetings!

Geesus. What is wrong with me using whatever crazy fucking accent that I want? Most people find crazy accents fucking hilarious. Getting accents down right and proper of course is fun in its own way too--but butchering accents in a crazy and terrible way is also funny. If there is someone out there that doesn't like crazy, stupid accents, or is somehow "offended"--they can get fucked.

As for cultures--real world, fantastic, and horrid mixtures of them together--that is a large part of what the fucking game is about.

Again, if some people want to clutch their pearls and sob like a bitch, they can get fucked.

This is a fucking fantasy game, for fun. Mixed with history, mythology, weird cultures, real cultures, and the kitchen sink.

People that used to play this game and be in this hobby at one time all knew these things. The people that can't seem to wrap their minds around these truths are fucking morons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Valatar on July 20, 2022, 08:37:57 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 08:07:40 PM
OK, I've picked up Radiant Citadel. The quotes that Pundit is using are close to the text - but first of all, the missing context is that all of what he quotes is from a subsection clearly entitled "Online and Streamed Games". I take it this isn't advice for D&D games in general, but for D&D games made public over Youtube like Critical Role, Drunks & Dragons, and so forth. Those shows are a public face of the game, and a number of them do feature players in costume, doing make-up and/or accents, and so forth.

He has some minor misquotes at a few points. He skips over "take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears" and instead jumps to the next paragraph. He quotes "Do not lean into stereotypes or clothing with real-world significance" - but the actual sentence is "Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world *religious* significance".

Here's the full subsection:

QuoteOnline and Streamed Games. Just as you don't have to breathe fire in real life to play a dragonborn in D&D, you don't need to be from the cultures that inspired the adventures in this book to play characters from them. However, take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears.

One person's culture isn't another's costume. If you dress up, simple outfits are best. Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world religious significance. Instead, focus on "everyday wear" from the cultures you're exploring. Don't change your skin color, alter your features, or emulate hair styles you wouldn't normally have to appear like a different real-world ethnicity. Similarly, avoid mocking real-world accents in your role-play.

Thanks for the extra info, jhkim.  I'll grant that streamers are more likely to do some weird cosplay thing than the average tabletop player, but if they have to be told by a book to not show up in like a rabbi outfit and blackface, I think they have bigger issues at hand.  Also, Pundit expressed confusion about the hairstyle thing, but I know exactly what it is, it's the 'white people can't have dreadlocks' idiocy from a couple years back.  I'm confused why anyone would WANT a tangled mass of unwashed hair, but there were several incidents of insufficiently-black people being assaulted over 'appropriating' dreadlocks.  That's what that part of the sentence is about.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Armchair Gamer on July 20, 2022, 09:00:37 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 08:07:40 PM
OK, I've picked up Radiant Citadel. The quotes that Pundit is using are close to the text - but first of all, the missing context is that all of what he quotes is from a subsection clearly entitled "Online and Streamed Games". I take it this isn't advice for D&D games in general, but for D&D games made public over Youtube like Critical Role, Drunks & Dragons, and so forth. Those shows are a public face of the game, and a number of them do feature players in costume, doing make-up and/or accents, and so forth.

  Under current circumstances, I'd be hesitant to run D&D with an unvetted group in public, much less put something out there for worldwide consumption, so this may not be bad advice for avoiding the Perpetually Outraged.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Shasarak on July 20, 2022, 10:07:30 PM
Quote from: SHARK on July 20, 2022, 08:32:46 PM
Greetings!

Geesus. What is wrong with me using whatever crazy fucking accent that I want? Most people find crazy accents fucking hilarious. Getting accents down right and proper of course is fun in its own way too--but butchering accents in a crazy and terrible way is also funny. If there is someone out there that doesn't like crazy, stupid accents, or is somehow "offended"--they can get fucked.

Och aye the noo, Sharky. Ya canne do the Korean accent again laddie.

No one can ken whacha blathering aboot.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 20, 2022, 10:39:47 PM
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 10:43:51 AMor how not all Vistani are evil

(And after some of the emotional outbursts I've seen regarding Fate of Cthulhu and the Ravenloft Campaign guide, I feel like there can be as much over reactionary screeching from the grognards as there is from the danger hairs.  "See this molehill!!!  It's massive!  Massive!"  Beam in your own eye battling with monsters and all that.)

1: This is one of the more crackheaded complaints and kowtowing. Why? Because originally the Vistani were presented as mostly nice welcoming folk. In the 2e Boxed set they are just kinda there and not presented as evil. Ruthlessly strict about maintaining racial purity. And bartering information with darklords. But not evil. Same on the White Wolf 3e version.

Fake made up Moral Outrage. Just like over orcs, drow. Got knows what next. Probably Flumphs.

2: Part of that is because alot of the big problems we face now started as little molehills. And I warned people here exactly this would happen just like last iteration in the 90s but no no no! Just ignore them and they'll go away. Well that sure worked wonders didnt it you fucking sheep!

And this has been going on so long that anything hinting of trouble now must be looked at as suspect because 9 times out of 10 it somehow fucking IS a problem. Hell a few months ago we were going over some new handicap-bait game and at first it looked like the outrage over the product was mis-aimed. That was the impression I got reading their initial statements.

Then came the followup statements and their hateful little handicapped-baiting agenda was revealed.

Also some times the over-reactions are being egged on by others. Increasingly so. And I'd lay good odds that at least a few were fakes. Woke cultists pretending. Theyve done it before. They will do it again.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 20, 2022, 10:43:49 PM
Quote from: tenbones on July 20, 2022, 12:14:08 PM
You mean like in the Menzoberanzzan Boxset where the Drow were colored a nice chocolate brown?

I miss the blueberry and grape flavoured drow...  8)
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 20, 2022, 10:47:18 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:30:49 PMIt turned out to be empty tokenism for promotional purposes only.

It wasnt even empty tokenism as
a: no wheelchairs.
b: no 'accessible' dungeons.

It was all pure fabrication.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 20, 2022, 10:54:08 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 08:07:40 PM
OK, I've picked up Radiant Citadel.

I hope you didnt buy the book just to find out what it was about?
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 20, 2022, 10:56:26 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 10:54:08 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 08:07:40 PM
OK, I've picked up Radiant Citadel.

I hope you didnt buy the book just to find out what it was about?

Of course not! He bought it to support WotC and to show his virtue.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 20, 2022, 10:58:18 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 20, 2022, 09:00:37 PM
  Under current circumstances, I'd be hesitant to run D&D with an unvetted group in public, much less put something out there for worldwide consumption, so this may not be bad advice for avoiding the Perpetually Outraged.

Except that there is literally nothing you can do that they can not somehow, some way, hallucinate is offensive.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: DocJones on July 20, 2022, 11:05:06 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 20, 2022, 09:00:37 PM
  Under current circumstances, I'd be hesitant to run D&D with an unvetted group in public, much less put something out there for worldwide consumption, so this may not be bad advice for avoiding the Perpetually Outraged.
If someone were to violate all those "guidelines" and stream their game on rumble...
I'd think it was a hoot.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Wisithir on July 20, 2022, 11:21:19 PM
So a manufacturer is declaring how their product maybe portrayed on platforms they do not control? What next, review guidelines that specify their product may not be criticized?

Again with a tool analogy, "this saw may not be used in any video production that includes pressure treated wood." 
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Armchair Gamer on July 21, 2022, 08:09:41 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 10:39:47 PM
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 10:43:51 AMor how not all Vistani are evil

(And after some of the emotional outbursts I've seen regarding Fate of Cthulhu and the Ravenloft Campaign guide, I feel like there can be as much over reactionary screeching from the grognards as there is from the danger hairs.  "See this molehill!!!  It's massive!  Massive!"  Beam in your own eye battling with monsters and all that.)

1: This is one of the more crackheaded complaints and kowtowing. Why? Because originally the Vistani were presented as mostly nice welcoming folk. In the 2e Boxed set they are just kinda there and not presented as evil. Ruthlessly strict about maintaining racial purity. And bartering information with darklords. But not evil. Same on the White Wolf 3e version.

    This is true, but it should be noted that the gypsies of I6 are evil, and that module holds an outsized influence on people's perceptions of the overall setting, especially given how many times TSR and WotC have gone back to that well.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Armchair Gamer on July 21, 2022, 08:10:16 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 10:58:18 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 20, 2022, 09:00:37 PM
  Under current circumstances, I'd be hesitant to run D&D with an unvetted group in public, much less put something out there for worldwide consumption, so this may not be bad advice for avoiding the Perpetually Outraged.

Except that there is literally nothing you can do that they can not somehow, some way, hallucinate is offensive.

  Hence why I'd be hesitant to run D&D with an unvetted group in public. :) To clarify, 'unvetted' not for fear that one of the players might do something offensive, but that one of the players might be the sort to take offense.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 21, 2022, 11:14:23 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 10:43:49 PM
Quote from: tenbones on July 20, 2022, 12:14:08 PM
You mean like in the Menzoberanzzan Boxset where the Drow were colored a nice chocolate brown?

I miss the blueberry and grape flavoured drow...  8)
As I've said before, flat black is boring as fuck to draw as well as painful to look at. So I could live with shades of gray, dark blue, and dark violet.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: VisionStorm on July 21, 2022, 11:37:44 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 21, 2022, 11:14:23 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 10:43:49 PM
Quote from: tenbones on July 20, 2022, 12:14:08 PM
You mean like in the Menzoberanzzan Boxset where the Drow were colored a nice chocolate brown?

I miss the blueberry and grape flavoured drow...  8)
As I've said before, flat black is boring as fuck to draw as well as painful to look at. So I could live with shades of gray, dark blue, and dark violet.

I've actually seen a couple of black drow art that came out nice, but agree that's typically not the case and they're usually hard to make out if pure black. I hate other colors, though, specially light shades of purple (which I know you didn't mention, but that's the one they usually use for Drizzt). I guess I could live with blueish gray, but chocolate brown is the one I use for my main drow character from back in the 90s, who I've recreated a bunch of times in various video games, as well as 3e and 5e pnp D&D.

I love me some sexy ass chocolate brown drow, "canon" be damned. I've always included them in my games.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 11:42:35 AM
I'll portray them as I want to and fek what anyone else thinks...

Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 21, 2022, 01:24:55 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 21, 2022, 11:37:44 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 21, 2022, 11:14:23 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 10:43:49 PM
Quote from: tenbones on July 20, 2022, 12:14:08 PM
You mean like in the Menzoberanzzan Boxset where the Drow were colored a nice chocolate brown?

I miss the blueberry and grape flavoured drow...  8)
As I've said before, flat black is boring as fuck to draw as well as painful to look at. So I could live with shades of gray, dark blue, and dark violet.

I've actually seen a couple of black drow art that came out nice, but agree that's typically not the case and they're usually hard to make out if pure black. I hate other colors, though, specially light shades of purple (which I know you didn't mention, but that's the one they usually use for Drizzt). I guess I could live with blueish gray, but chocolate brown is the one I use for my main drow character from back in the 90s, who I've recreated a bunch of times in various video games, as well as 3e and 5e pnp D&D.

I love me some sexy ass chocolate brown drow, "canon" be damned. I've always included them in my games.
At least they put a dark skin color on Drizzt there. A number of the covers for Drizzt's books give him pale skin and a weird gold skullcap.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Anon Adderlan on July 21, 2022, 02:49:15 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:13:39 PM
The combat wheelchair thing is a tempest in a teapot. It's a niche idea that spun some drama that got blown out of all proportion.

Indeed

However if you don't believe its creator was doing it for clout you're definitely kidding yourself.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:13:39 PM
Candlekeep has one dungeon that uses ramps instead of stairs. It also has a chamber where gravity doesn't apply, so you can float. The adventure includes a lot of mild body horror type stuff. There is no mention of wheelchairs or why ramps instead of stairs. It was written by someone who uses a wheelchair. Big woop. If you ran this adventure without knowing of the "controversy" you'd be hard-pressed to notice that the dungeon was wheelchair accessible.

Also indeed.

However both sides involved made damn sure you weren't going to miss it.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:30:49 PM
It cuts the other way, too. WotC got a widely disseminated puff piece about the "wheelchair accessible dungeon" that no doubt helped promote Candlekeep. They were perfectly happy to promote the book based on notions of inclusion, but the follow through was entirely different (no mention of wheelchairs or the reason for the ramps in the book itself). It turned out to be empty tokenism for promotional purposes only.

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 02:26:15 PM
The author of that dungeon did claim that it was wheelchair accessible prior to publication. As published, though, the dungeon is accessed by a ladder. That may have been a later editorial change.

#QED

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 02:26:15 PMWhile Polygon (among others) did tout the wheelchair accessibility of this 1 out of 17 dungeons, Pundit's claims went way beyond what was claimed there - saying that every dungeon since was wheelchair accessible, and that Sara Thompson's homebrew "combat wheelchair" was in the book. Polygon mentioned the combat wheelchair, but didn't claim it was in Candlekeep or any other WotC book.

Shocking how both sides go to extremes.

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 08:07:40 PM
OK, I've picked up Radiant Citadel. The quotes that Pundit is using are close to the text - but first of all, the missing context is that all of what he quotes is from a subsection clearly entitled "Online and Streamed Games". I take it this isn't advice for D&D games in general, but for D&D games made public over Youtube like Critical Role, Drunks & Dragons, and so forth. Those shows are a public face of the game, and a number of them do feature players in costume, doing make-up and/or accents, and so forth.

He has some minor misquotes at a few points. He skips over "take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears" and instead jumps to the next paragraph. He quotes "Do not lean into stereotypes or clothing with real-world significance" - but the actual sentence is "Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world *religious* significance".

Here's the full subsection:

QuoteOnline and Streamed Games. Just as you don't have to breathe fire in real life to play a dragonborn in D&D, you don't need to be from the cultures that inspired the adventures in this book to play characters from them. However, take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears.

One person's culture isn't another's costume. If you dress up, simple outfits are best. Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world religious significance. Instead, focus on "everyday wear" from the cultures you're exploring. Don't change your skin color, alter your features, or emulate hair styles you wouldn't normally have to appear like a different real-world ethnicity. Similarly, avoid mocking real-world accents in your role-play.

Overplayed as usual.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 20, 2022, 09:00:37 PM
Under current circumstances, I'd be hesitant to run D&D with an unvetted group in public, much less put something out there for worldwide consumption, so this may not be bad advice for avoiding the Perpetually Outraged.

Not wrong.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 19, 2022, 09:54:12 PM
This is a great analogy that illustrates the brainwashing at hand.

Label on the saw: Dear Saw Owner: This saw will safely cut ash, pine, and beech.

Experienced saw owner: Hmm. That's a weird thing to say. I know this saw has 1 mm coined carbide teeth, so it should cut oak just fine. Here goes.

Novice saw owner: There must be a good reason for this, so let's do what it says.

It's a subtle usurpation of authority. It raises doubt in young minds.

Perhaps the saw maker wants to sell a special oak saw to people who don't know any better.

Perhaps WotC wants to position themselves as the "safe" option and cast doubt on other games. Or perhaps they're just woke wankers.

Also perfect example of how authoritarian thinking is intellectually bankrupt.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: jhkim on July 21, 2022, 04:16:40 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 10:54:08 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 08:07:40 PM
OK, I've picked up Radiant Citadel.

I hope you didnt buy the book just to find out what it was about?

I bought the book because I was curious. In general, I tend to like anthology adventure collections more than adventure paths. I disliked the early 5E adventures that I tried - Horde of the Dragon Queen, Out of the Abyss, and Dragon of Icespire Peak. I found them clunky and dull. Horde felt paint-by-numbers with main quest and side quests. Out of the Abyss had interesting material - but it was almost all a ton of background that players could do little to influence. And Icespire Peak was a mix. But I thought Candlekeep Mysteries was much better - there were some really interesting and fun scenarios. I liked the mystery aspect to them.

Thus far, I'm liking Radiant Citadel less, but it's still got interesting material in the mini-settings and the adventures, though the quality of those vary. I like Shadow of the Sun the best so far.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RebelSky on July 21, 2022, 09:51:57 PM
So they tell us that we can play a PC of a different "culture, aka Race" but we can't portray them in any way stereotypical nor can we play them as culturally authentic as possible... So the only way we can play them is as if they weren't from their own culture so we can only play them as if they are from our own culture, which is us stripping away from them what makes them culturally them.

So it's all about homogeneous gameplay... Every race is the same, there are no distinctions, no stereotypes but no uniqueness either. But it's only about skin color, right? Or does this also extend to nonhuman races as well as following these new guidelines also makes every nonhuman race just another flavor of humanity.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: HappyDaze on July 21, 2022, 10:18:48 PM
Quote from: RebelSky on July 21, 2022, 09:51:57 PM
So they tell us that we can play a PC of a different "culture, aka Race" but we can't portray them in any way stereotypical nor can we play them as culturally authentic as possible... So the only way we can play them is as if they weren't from their own culture so we can only play them as if they are from our own culture, which is us stripping away from them what makes them culturally them.

So it's all about homogeneous gameplay... Every race is the same, there are no distinctions, no stereotypes but no uniqueness either. But it's only about skin color, right? Or does this also extend to nonhuman races as well as following these new guidelines also makes every nonhuman race just another flavor of humanity.
What they actually say is that, if you're playing a public or online game, have some self-awareness so that you're not unintentionally offensive. They don't bother to tell you not to be intentionally offensive, because if that's your bag, then you do you.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Koltar on July 21, 2022, 11:00:13 PM
So, ...wait - what is the core problem here?

Are they saying they don't want DMs to d accents or even silly accents when portraying NPCs?

Well thats not cool.!!

Thats half the fun of being a DM.

A Dwarf can sound like a drunken Scotsman or an inebriated southerner with a Cajun accent.
An Elf could sound like a snooty Frenchman

A random villager or townsfolk might have a cockney accent

That sort of thing....
-Ed C.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Philotomy Jurament on July 21, 2022, 11:33:18 PM
WotC hasn't had any relevance or influence on my gaming in years. :shrugs:
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Dylan: King of the Dead on July 21, 2022, 11:35:39 PM
Racial stereotypes exist firstly because they capture something true, and second because they're a convenient shorthand. This applies just as much in RPGs as it does IRL
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:46:40 PM
Quote from: Valatar on July 20, 2022, 06:26:20 PM
Pundit being an unreliable source on account of quoting other people who turned out to be wrong is really not relevant in this situation, given that he seems to have access to the book in question this time.  And while people can certainly say, "Oh, Wizards is just providing helpful guidelines!", you can bet every dollar you own that if some streaming game shows the DM breaking one of those 'guidelines', they will immediately be pilloried for it.  It isn't just a guideline anymore if there's a person slapping a cudgel into their palm behind you.

To clarify, I had access to a photo of that page of the book, which had been spread around twitter.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 08:18:34 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

At the time there was no way to tell it was not true. And WOTC themselves have more than once lied about book content through 5es run.
This is why every time WOTC or one of their staff make a claim. I wait and see what the actual product is because odds are it aint.

So yes in Pundits defense he got baited that time and fell for it. So did everyone else for a while. And the combat wheelchair did show up. Just not in mainstream D&D. It was added to Idle Champions round the same time. To "make D&D more welcoming". And that is exactly where I quit playing IC:FR and haven't touched it since.

Case in point, the new Radiant Citadel book has been promoted everywhere on social media with the emphasis on the book having been produced by 50 people of color, and no white people. Wizards itself has done this promotion, through spokespersons like Ajit George (the lead on this book, who until recently had practically no experience in game design).
And yet, I've now been told (note: might be inaccurate) that in the physical book itself, the one gamers will look at in stores, it doesn't mention this ANYWHERE. If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda (note, by the way, the Radiant Citadel has "community policing" with restorative justice and treating crime as a mental health issue. In spite of this, and unlike everywhere in the real world where Defunding Police has been tried, the citadel supposedly has "very little crime".
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:55:33 PM
Quote from: Valatar on July 20, 2022, 08:37:57 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 08:07:40 PM
OK, I've picked up Radiant Citadel. The quotes that Pundit is using are close to the text - but first of all, the missing context is that all of what he quotes is from a subsection clearly entitled "Online and Streamed Games". I take it this isn't advice for D&D games in general, but for D&D games made public over Youtube like Critical Role, Drunks & Dragons, and so forth. Those shows are a public face of the game, and a number of them do feature players in costume, doing make-up and/or accents, and so forth.

He has some minor misquotes at a few points. He skips over "take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears" and instead jumps to the next paragraph. He quotes "Do not lean into stereotypes or clothing with real-world significance" - but the actual sentence is "Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world *religious* significance".

Here's the full subsection:

QuoteOnline and Streamed Games. Just as you don't have to breathe fire in real life to play a dragonborn in D&D, you don't need to be from the cultures that inspired the adventures in this book to play characters from them. However, take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears.

One person's culture isn't another's costume. If you dress up, simple outfits are best. Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world religious significance. Instead, focus on "everyday wear" from the cultures you're exploring. Don't change your skin color, alter your features, or emulate hair styles you wouldn't normally have to appear like a different real-world ethnicity. Similarly, avoid mocking real-world accents in your role-play.

Thanks for the extra info, jhkim.  I'll grant that streamers are more likely to do some weird cosplay thing than the average tabletop player, but if they have to be told by a book to not show up in like a rabbi outfit and blackface, I think they have bigger issues at hand.  Also, Pundit expressed confusion about the hairstyle thing, but I know exactly what it is, it's the 'white people can't have dreadlocks' idiocy from a couple years back.  I'm confused why anyone would WANT a tangled mass of unwashed hair, but there were several incidents of insufficiently-black people being assaulted over 'appropriating' dreadlocks.  That's what that part of the sentence is about.

Black people did not invent dreadlocks and have no special claim over them. A wide variety of cultures all over the earth have had them at different times. As I pointed out in the video, Polish Peasants styled their hair in what could be called something akin to dreadlocks for several centuries.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 12:11:36 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 08:18:34 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

At the time there was no way to tell it was not true. And WOTC themselves have more than once lied about book content through 5es run.
This is why every time WOTC or one of their staff make a claim. I wait and see what the actual product is because odds are it aint.

So yes in Pundits defense he got baited that time and fell for it. So did everyone else for a while. And the combat wheelchair did show up. Just not in mainstream D&D. It was added to Idle Champions round the same time. To "make D&D more welcoming". And that is exactly where I quit playing IC:FR and haven't touched it since.

Case in point, the new Radiant Citadel book has been promoted everywhere on social media with the emphasis on the book having been produced by 50 people of color, and no white people. Wizards itself has done this promotion, through spokespersons like Ajit George (the lead on this book, who until recently had practically no experience in game design).
And yet, I've now been told (note: might be inaccurate) that in the physical book itself, the one gamers will look at in stores, it doesn't mention this ANYWHERE. If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda (note, by the way, the Radiant Citadel has "community policing" with restorative justice and treating crime as a mental health issue. In spite of this, and unlike everywhere in the real world where Defunding Police has been tried, the citadel supposedly has "very little crime".
And unlike everywhere in the real world, they have magic.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: jhkim on July 22, 2022, 12:46:16 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
Case in point, the new Radiant Citadel book has been promoted everywhere on social media with the emphasis on the book having been produced by 50 people of color, and no white people. Wizards itself has done this promotion, through spokespersons like Ajit George (the lead on this book, who until recently had practically no experience in game design).
And yet, I've now been told (note: might be inaccurate) that in the physical book itself, the one gamers will look at in stores, it doesn't mention this ANYWHERE. If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda

So what you're saying is that the real truth of the book can only be seen if one reads social media - and no one would guess that truth if they only read the book itself and use it in their D&D game.

I would say the opposite. The truth of the book is the content of the book itself. And if social media marketing gives a different impression than the book itself, then the social media marketing is being deceptive.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 09:04:01 AM
I have been kicked off of wizards' FB page (or was it the D&D page, I don't know anymore, anyhow, the official page) because I said that, even though I am interested in non-Western viewpoints, excluding people from collaborating on this or that project by the colour of their skin (if you allow ONLY this colour, then it stands to reason you exclude all others), is still racism. It may be well-intentioned racism but racism is racism. The shit I had to stomach after that...
- Racism is not about skin colour, it is about power. White people have the power, therefore, you cannot be racist against white people.
- I am a racist myself because I dare say that excluding whites (as well as other cultures) is also racism.
- Giving non-white people "a voice" does not mean excluding white people (even though that is exactly what they have done), therefore it isn't racist.
And so on... Which I could easily and respectfully parry with arguments of my own, so they kicked and banned me without warning.
That being said, I love the idea of the book, I really do. Even though the Radiant Citadel is a more (very) nice version of Sigil, the adventures and the artwork thereof are some of the nicest I've ever seen in a 5e book and I mean it. It is a shame that a product that potentially could be good, is buried in criticism and bullfighting like this.

But unfortunately, the Radiant Citadel will get a visit by my party...
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 22, 2022, 09:14:46 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 09:04:01 AM
I have been kicked off of wizards' FB page (or was it the D&D page, I don't know anymore, anyhow, the official page) because I said that, even though I am interested in non-Western viewpoints, excluding people from collaborating on this or that project by the colour of their skin (if you allow ONLY this colour, then it stands to reason you exclude all others), is still racism. It may be well-intentioned racism but racism is racism. The shit I had to stomach after that...
- Racism is not about skin colour, it is about power. White people have the power, therefore, you cannot be racist against white people.
- I am a racist myself because I dare say that excluding whites (as well as other cultures) is also racism.
- Giving non-white people "a voice" does not mean excluding white people (even though that is exactly what they have done), therefore it isn't racist.
And so on... Which I could easily and respectfully parry with arguments of my own, so they kicked and banned me without warning.
That being said, I love the idea of the book, I really do. Even though the Radiant Citadel is a more (very) nice version of Sigil, the adventures and the artwork thereof are some of the nicest I've ever seen in a 5e book and I mean it. It is a shame that a product that potentially could be good, is buried in criticism and bullfighting like this.

But unfortunately, the Radiant Citadel will get a visit by my party...
Welcome to modern leftist debate tactics.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 09:22:53 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 22, 2022, 09:14:46 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 09:04:01 AM
I have been kicked off of wizards' FB page (or was it the D&D page, I don't know anymore, anyhow, the official page) because I said that, even though I am interested in non-Western viewpoints, excluding people from collaborating on this or that project by the colour of their skin (if you allow ONLY this colour, then it stands to reason you exclude all others), is still racism. It may be well-intentioned racism but racism is racism. The shit I had to stomach after that...
- Racism is not about skin colour, it is about power. White people have the power, therefore, you cannot be racist against white people.
- I am a racist myself because I dare say that excluding whites (as well as other cultures) is also racism.
- Giving non-white people "a voice" does not mean excluding white people (even though that is exactly what they have done), therefore it isn't racist.
And so on... Which I could easily and respectfully parry with arguments of my own, so they kicked and banned me without warning.
That being said, I love the idea of the book, I really do. Even though the Radiant Citadel is a more (very) nice version of Sigil, the adventures and the artwork thereof are some of the nicest I've ever seen in a 5e book and I mean it. It is a shame that a product that potentially could be good, is buried in criticism and bullfighting like this.

But unfortunately, the Radiant Citadel will get a visit by my party...
Welcome to modern leftist debate tactics.

Thing is, I'm from Belgium and believe you me, I know racism when I see it - in both ways. For clarification: blacks (as in African people) once were exhibited in an Expo as little more than animals. Later, of course, it's no more the blacks that are lazy, it's the sons and daughters of the people we imported to do our dirty work we didn't want to do (coalmines come to mind). South Africa is often shown with Apartheid to be a racist country, Belgium in the seventies through nineties was no better (look up "geen vreemdelingen" which was a sign at some pubs and you'll know exactly what I mean) and even I may have made some, in hindsight, stupid racist remarks, but hey, dad says it so I have to do so too, right? Now I'm older and wiser and I see the veil of racism and I will fight it wherever I see it, in any direction I see it. Even though politically I would be left-leaning, I will not apologise for being either white or Belgian, because that's also a thing here. We must apologise for what rich people did in the colonies. No. Never. So the point I'm making is, leftist or not, racism is racism.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 22, 2022, 09:47:00 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 09:22:53 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 22, 2022, 09:14:46 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 09:04:01 AM
I have been kicked off of wizards' FB page (or was it the D&D page, I don't know anymore, anyhow, the official page) because I said that, even though I am interested in non-Western viewpoints, excluding people from collaborating on this or that project by the colour of their skin (if you allow ONLY this colour, then it stands to reason you exclude all others), is still racism. It may be well-intentioned racism but racism is racism. The shit I had to stomach after that...
- Racism is not about skin colour, it is about power. White people have the power, therefore, you cannot be racist against white people.
- I am a racist myself because I dare say that excluding whites (as well as other cultures) is also racism.
- Giving non-white people "a voice" does not mean excluding white people (even though that is exactly what they have done), therefore it isn't racist.
And so on... Which I could easily and respectfully parry with arguments of my own, so they kicked and banned me without warning.
That being said, I love the idea of the book, I really do. Even though the Radiant Citadel is a more (very) nice version of Sigil, the adventures and the artwork thereof are some of the nicest I've ever seen in a 5e book and I mean it. It is a shame that a product that potentially could be good, is buried in criticism and bullfighting like this.

But unfortunately, the Radiant Citadel will get a visit by my party...
Welcome to modern leftist debate tactics.

Thing is, I'm from Belgium and believe you me, I know racism when I see it - in both ways. For clarification: blacks (as in African people) once were exhibited in an Expo as little more than animals. Later, of course, it's no more the blacks that are lazy, it's the sons and daughters of the people we imported to do our dirty work we didn't want to do (coalmines come to mind). South Africa is often shown with Apartheid to be a racist country, Belgium in the seventies through nineties was no better (look up "geen vreemdelingen" which was a sign at some pubs and you'll know exactly what I mean) and even I may have made some, in hindsight, stupid racist remarks, but hey, dad says it so I have to do so too, right? Now I'm older and wiser and I see the veil of racism and I will fight it wherever I see it, in any direction I see it. Even though politically I would be left-leaning, I will not apologise for being either white or Belgian, because that's also a thing here. We must apologise for what rich people did in the colonies. No. Never. So the point I'm making is, leftist or not, racism is racism.
Ah, but that's the thing, friend: you must pay for the actions of your forefathers, by their reckoning.

Sippenhaft, as the Germans say it. Blood guilt. Doesn't matter that you've disavowed such actions (and yeah, the Belgians were downright bestial in the Congo. Sheesh) or that you're trying to be a better person. You must pay for those sins, and keep paying. And it will not stop because it will never be enough for them.

So bluntly put, the solution you've come to is the correct one. Tell them to fuck off, and die mad.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 09:47:25 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 12:11:36 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 08:18:34 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

At the time there was no way to tell it was not true. And WOTC themselves have more than once lied about book content through 5es run.
This is why every time WOTC or one of their staff make a claim. I wait and see what the actual product is because odds are it aint.

So yes in Pundits defense he got baited that time and fell for it. So did everyone else for a while. And the combat wheelchair did show up. Just not in mainstream D&D. It was added to Idle Champions round the same time. To "make D&D more welcoming". And that is exactly where I quit playing IC:FR and haven't touched it since.

Case in point, the new Radiant Citadel book has been promoted everywhere on social media with the emphasis on the book having been produced by 50 people of color, and no white people. Wizards itself has done this promotion, through spokespersons like Ajit George (the lead on this book, who until recently had practically no experience in game design).
And yet, I've now been told (note: might be inaccurate) that in the physical book itself, the one gamers will look at in stores, it doesn't mention this ANYWHERE. If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda (note, by the way, the Radiant Citadel has "community policing" with restorative justice and treating crime as a mental health issue. In spite of this, and unlike everywhere in the real world where Defunding Police has been tried, the citadel supposedly has "very little crime".
And unlike everywhere in the real world, they have magic.

The only context in which they mention magic in that section, however, is that in cases of severe offenses they magically mind-control a person to be unable to ever repeat the crime again. Which is quite Totalitarian and quite telling. 
I mean, saying "Defund the police works IF YOU HAVE MAGIC POWERS that you can use to BRAIN-WIPE anyone you want" is hardly what I'd call a victory for the Defund the Police movement.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Dylan: King of the Dead on July 22, 2022, 09:48:41 AM
I personally think it's fair for WoTC to legislate when one can and cannot do "drow face" or whatever. They own the IP after all, and there have to be at least SOME occasions or situations where it isn't appropriate.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 22, 2022, 09:49:33 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 09:47:25 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 12:11:36 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 08:18:34 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

At the time there was no way to tell it was not true. And WOTC themselves have more than once lied about book content through 5es run.
This is why every time WOTC or one of their staff make a claim. I wait and see what the actual product is because odds are it aint.

So yes in Pundits defense he got baited that time and fell for it. So did everyone else for a while. And the combat wheelchair did show up. Just not in mainstream D&D. It was added to Idle Champions round the same time. To "make D&D more welcoming". And that is exactly where I quit playing IC:FR and haven't touched it since.

Case in point, the new Radiant Citadel book has been promoted everywhere on social media with the emphasis on the book having been produced by 50 people of color, and no white people. Wizards itself has done this promotion, through spokespersons like Ajit George (the lead on this book, who until recently had practically no experience in game design).
And yet, I've now been told (note: might be inaccurate) that in the physical book itself, the one gamers will look at in stores, it doesn't mention this ANYWHERE. If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda (note, by the way, the Radiant Citadel has "community policing" with restorative justice and treating crime as a mental health issue. In spite of this, and unlike everywhere in the real world where Defunding Police has been tried, the citadel supposedly has "very little crime".
And unlike everywhere in the real world, they have magic.

The only context in which they mention magic in that section, however, is that in cases of severe offenses they magically mind-control a person to be unable to ever repeat the crime again. Which is quite Totalitarian and quite telling. 
I mean, saying "Defund the police works IF YOU HAVE MAGIC POWERS that you can use to BRAIN-WIPE anyone you want" is hardly what I'd call a victory for the Defund the Police movement.
At the risk of moving the discussion too far afield, Pundit, we have that option too. It's called lobotomization. :D

Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 09:52:02 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 22, 2022, 12:46:16 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
Case in point, the new Radiant Citadel book has been promoted everywhere on social media with the emphasis on the book having been produced by 50 people of color, and no white people. Wizards itself has done this promotion, through spokespersons like Ajit George (the lead on this book, who until recently had practically no experience in game design).
And yet, I've now been told (note: might be inaccurate) that in the physical book itself, the one gamers will look at in stores, it doesn't mention this ANYWHERE. If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda

So what you're saying is that the real truth of the book can only be seen if one reads social media - and no one would guess that truth if they only read the book itself and use it in their D&D game.

I would say the opposite. The truth of the book is the content of the book itself. And if social media marketing gives a different impression than the book itself, then the social media marketing is being deceptive.

I'm saying that how they're selling the book is deceptive to what their real goals are. It's just like what has happened with countless other media. They tried to sell The Last Jedi as the greatest coolest real star wars ever, but instead it was just a ritual murdering of Star Wars and wearing its logo as a skin suit. It was directly intended to be a complete deconstruction of all the values of Star Wars.  Or how countless superhero and sci-fi shows and movies are promoted as being a cool series about a hero everyone loves, and then it turns out the titular character is presented as weak and incompetent compared to (insert demographic minority here; usually gender and race shifted) who is the real protagonist and the entire reason why they made the show, in order to actually end up being the character they want to replace the well-liked hero with.

This is being sold as "kind of like planescape" as if that was the point, when actually the point is promoting BLM, Police Defunding, and praising their new segregationist policy in the creation of the book.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:02:12 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 12:11:36 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 08:18:34 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

At the time there was no way to tell it was not true. And WOTC themselves have more than once lied about book content through 5es run.
This is why every time WOTC or one of their staff make a claim. I wait and see what the actual product is because odds are it aint.

So yes in Pundits defense he got baited that time and fell for it. So did everyone else for a while. And the combat wheelchair did show up. Just not in mainstream D&D. It was added to Idle Champions round the same time. To "make D&D more welcoming". And that is exactly where I quit playing IC:FR and haven't touched it since.

Case in point, the new Radiant Citadel book has been promoted everywhere on social media with the emphasis on the book having been produced by 50 people of color, and no white people. Wizards itself has done this promotion, through spokespersons like Ajit George (the lead on this book, who until recently had practically no experience in game design).
And yet, I've now been told (note: might be inaccurate) that in the physical book itself, the one gamers will look at in stores, it doesn't mention this ANYWHERE. If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda (note, by the way, the Radiant Citadel has "community policing" with restorative justice and treating crime as a mental health issue. In spite of this, and unlike everywhere in the real world where Defunding Police has been tried, the citadel supposedly has "very little crime".
And unlike everywhere in the real world, they have magic.

So what you're saying is... people in the Radiant Citadel are mind-controlled into not committing crime? Cuz that's the only way that magic could interfere in this instance. Magic cannot "magically" make unworkable policies work, it can only change the the circumstances that prevent those policies from working and only in limited and specific ways.

So the question is: What about creatures immune to mind control? And what's the save DC for this mind-control effect? Where does it originate? What's the mind-controlling object's or creature's stats? These elements need to be defined if we're using "magic" to make these policies "work".
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:07:04 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 09:47:25 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 12:11:36 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 08:18:34 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

At the time there was no way to tell it was not true. And WOTC themselves have more than once lied about book content through 5es run.
This is why every time WOTC or one of their staff make a claim. I wait and see what the actual product is because odds are it aint.

So yes in Pundits defense he got baited that time and fell for it. So did everyone else for a while. And the combat wheelchair did show up. Just not in mainstream D&D. It was added to Idle Champions round the same time. To "make D&D more welcoming". And that is exactly where I quit playing IC:FR and haven't touched it since.

Case in point, the new Radiant Citadel book has been promoted everywhere on social media with the emphasis on the book having been produced by 50 people of color, and no white people. Wizards itself has done this promotion, through spokespersons like Ajit George (the lead on this book, who until recently had practically no experience in game design).
And yet, I've now been told (note: might be inaccurate) that in the physical book itself, the one gamers will look at in stores, it doesn't mention this ANYWHERE. If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda (note, by the way, the Radiant Citadel has "community policing" with restorative justice and treating crime as a mental health issue. In spite of this, and unlike everywhere in the real world where Defunding Police has been tried, the citadel supposedly has "very little crime".
And unlike everywhere in the real world, they have magic.

The only context in which they mention magic in that section, however, is that in cases of severe offenses they magically mind-control a person to be unable to ever repeat the crime again. Which is quite Totalitarian and quite telling. 
I mean, saying "Defund the police works IF YOU HAVE MAGIC POWERS that you can use to BRAIN-WIPE anyone you want" is hardly what I'd call a victory for the Defund the Police movement.

Damn, beat me to it! Freaking slow typing phone!
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:10:21 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 22, 2022, 09:49:33 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 09:47:25 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 12:11:36 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 08:18:34 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

At the time there was no way to tell it was not true. And WOTC themselves have more than once lied about book content through 5es run.
This is why every time WOTC or one of their staff make a claim. I wait and see what the actual product is because odds are it aint.

So yes in Pundits defense he got baited that time and fell for it. So did everyone else for a while. And the combat wheelchair did show up. Just not in mainstream D&D. It was added to Idle Champions round the same time. To "make D&D more welcoming". And that is exactly where I quit playing IC:FR and haven't touched it since.

Case in point, the new Radiant Citadel book has been promoted everywhere on social media with the emphasis on the book having been produced by 50 people of color, and no white people. Wizards itself has done this promotion, through spokespersons like Ajit George (the lead on this book, who until recently had practically no experience in game design).
And yet, I've now been told (note: might be inaccurate) that in the physical book itself, the one gamers will look at in stores, it doesn't mention this ANYWHERE. If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda (note, by the way, the Radiant Citadel has "community policing" with restorative justice and treating crime as a mental health issue. In spite of this, and unlike everywhere in the real world where Defunding Police has been tried, the citadel supposedly has "very little crime".
And unlike everywhere in the real world, they have magic.

The only context in which they mention magic in that section, however, is that in cases of severe offenses they magically mind-control a person to be unable to ever repeat the crime again. Which is quite Totalitarian and quite telling. 
I mean, saying "Defund the police works IF YOU HAVE MAGIC POWERS that you can use to BRAIN-WIPE anyone you want" is hardly what I'd call a victory for the Defund the Police movement.
At the risk of moving the discussion too far afield, Pundit, we have that option too. It's called lobotomization. :D

Yeah, but in-game, we can have MAGICAL lobotomization. That makes all the difference and makes this workable, because "magic"! ;)
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 10:25:00 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 09:47:25 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 12:11:36 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 08:18:34 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.
Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

At the time there was no way to tell it was not true. And WOTC themselves have more than once lied about book content through 5es run.
This is why every time WOTC or one of their staff make a claim. I wait and see what the actual product is because odds are it aint.

So yes in Pundits defense he got baited that time and fell for it. So did everyone else for a while. And the combat wheelchair did show up. Just not in mainstream D&D. It was added to Idle Champions round the same time. To "make D&D more welcoming". And that is exactly where I quit playing IC:FR and haven't touched it since.

Case in point, the new Radiant Citadel book has been promoted everywhere on social media with the emphasis on the book having been produced by 50 people of color, and no white people. Wizards itself has done this promotion, through spokespersons like Ajit George (the lead on this book, who until recently had practically no experience in game design).
And yet, I've now been told (note: might be inaccurate) that in the physical book itself, the one gamers will look at in stores, it doesn't mention this ANYWHERE. If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda (note, by the way, the Radiant Citadel has "community policing" with restorative justice and treating crime as a mental health issue. In spite of this, and unlike everywhere in the real world where Defunding Police has been tried, the citadel supposedly has "very little crime".
And unlike everywhere in the real world, they have magic.

The only context in which they mention magic in that section, however, is that in cases of severe offenses they magically mind-control a person to be unable to ever repeat the crime again. Which is quite Totalitarian and quite telling. 
I mean, saying "Defund the police works IF YOU HAVE MAGIC POWERS that you can use to BRAIN-WIPE anyone you want" is hardly what I'd call a victory for the Defund the Police movement.
I agree that it's not the message that they intend, but it does show what's possible in their fantasy (and many other people's horrorshow) world. This can actually be a horow setting if played straight.

OTOH, I have discussed before that magic could allow for altered "world laws" as in Torg. This requires adjusting expectations for how things ought to work in the setting because real world laws don't necessarily apply in the same manner. We can imagine a world with alterations to gravity, but it might be harder for us to imagine a world with objective good/evil, especially when that world defines those qualities differently than is done in the real world, but magic could allow this. I'm not talking about magic use by PC (or even NPCs). I'm talking a world where such things are created by the underlying laws of its universe (like the Weave in FR). This is, of course, more fantasy than most want to deal with.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 10:28:39 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:02:12 AM
Magic cannot "magically" make
You're wrong. If I make a setting and say the magic can "magically" make X, Y, or Z possible in my world, that's exactly what happens. Magic is the core of fantasy. Don't be so limited in your thinking.

EDIT: As an example, consider the Mirror Universe of Star Trek. The inhabitants of this universe are all morally hardwired toward bad behaviors and ugly morality. Is it hard to accept that perhaps the Radiant Citadel exists in a pocket that is quite the opposite because magic?
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Skullking on July 22, 2022, 10:39:43 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 09:47:25 AM
The only context in which they mention magic in that section, however, is that in cases of severe offenses they magically mind-control a person to be unable to ever repeat the crime again. Which is quite Totalitarian and quite telling. 

So leftists are now using A Clockwork Orange as a society blueprint as well as 1984.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Dylan: King of the Dead on July 22, 2022, 10:42:13 AM
Quote from: Skullking on July 22, 2022, 10:39:43 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 09:47:25 AM
The only context in which they mention magic in that section, however, is that in cases of severe offenses they magically mind-control a person to be unable to ever repeat the crime again. Which is quite Totalitarian and quite telling. 

So leftists are now using A Clockwork Orange as a society blueprint as well as 1984.

And The Turner Diaries - don't forget that one.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 10:51:19 AM
While we are at it, can somebody tell me succinctly, and not by hearsay, what is the thing with violence in the Radiant Citadel?

- Can't people commit violence, or won't people commit violence?
- Why not? Can't because of magic or a deity, or won't because of ideology?
- Is the lack of an efficient guard a cause or a consequence of the lack of violence?
- How does this manifest itself, as in, are there no thieves' guilds or assassin's guilds at all there?

I know, probably redundant, but once summer is over, my party will probably journey through the radiant citadel, by ways of preparation I need to know the resistance they can, can't, will or won't meet.

Cheers
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Dylan: King of the Dead on July 22, 2022, 10:55:51 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 10:51:19 AM
While we are at it, can somebody tell me succinctly, and not by hearsay, what is the thing with violence in the Radiant Citadel?

- Can't people commit violence, or won't people commit violence?
- Why not? Can't because of magic or a deity, or won't because of ideology?
- Is the lack of an efficient guard a cause or a consequence of the lack of violence?
- How does this manifest itself, as in, are there no thieves' guilds or assassin's guilds at all there?

I know, probably redundant, but once summer is over, my party will probably journey through the radiant citadel, by ways of preparation I need to know the resistance they can, can't, will or won't meet.

Cheers

I think you're in the wrong thread mate.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 10:58:57 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 10:55:51 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 10:51:19 AM
While we are at it, can somebody tell me succinctly, and not by hearsay, what is the thing with violence in the Radiant Citadel?

- Can't people commit violence, or won't people commit violence?
- Why not? Can't because of magic or a deity, or won't because of ideology?
- Is the lack of an efficient guard a cause or a consequence of the lack of violence?
- How does this manifest itself, as in, are there no thieves' guilds or assassin's guilds at all there?

I know, probably redundant, but once summer is over, my party will probably journey through the radiant citadel, by ways of preparation I need to know the resistance they can, can't, will or won't meet.

Cheers

I think you're in the wrong thread mate.

I don't think so, actually.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Dylan: King of the Dead on July 22, 2022, 11:01:53 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 10:58:57 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 10:55:51 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 10:51:19 AM
While we are at it, can somebody tell me succinctly, and not by hearsay, what is the thing with violence in the Radiant Citadel?

- Can't people commit violence, or won't people commit violence?
- Why not? Can't because of magic or a deity, or won't because of ideology?
- Is the lack of an efficient guard a cause or a consequence of the lack of violence?
- How does this manifest itself, as in, are there no thieves' guilds or assassin's guilds at all there?

I know, probably redundant, but once summer is over, my party will probably journey through the radiant citadel, by ways of preparation I need to know the resistance they can, can't, will or won't meet.

Cheers

I think you're in the wrong thread mate.

I don't think so, actually.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/lets-create-the-non-soy-citadel/
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 11:12:10 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 11:01:53 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 10:58:57 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 10:55:51 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 10:51:19 AM
While we are at it, can somebody tell me succinctly, and not by hearsay, what is the thing with violence in the Radiant Citadel?

- Can't people commit violence, or won't people commit violence?
- Why not? Can't because of magic or a deity, or won't because of ideology?
- Is the lack of an efficient guard a cause or a consequence of the lack of violence?
- How does this manifest itself, as in, are there no thieves' guilds or assassin's guilds at all there?

I know, probably redundant, but once summer is over, my party will probably journey through the radiant citadel, by ways of preparation I need to know the resistance they can, can't, will or won't meet.

Cheers

I think you're in the wrong thread mate.

I don't think so, actually.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/lets-create-the-non-soy-citadel/
I do believe the subject is touched upon here as well.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Dylan: King of the Dead on July 22, 2022, 11:19:06 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 11:12:10 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 11:01:53 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 10:58:57 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 10:55:51 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 10:51:19 AM
While we are at it, can somebody tell me succinctly, and not by hearsay, what is the thing with violence in the Radiant Citadel?

- Can't people commit violence, or won't people commit violence?
- Why not? Can't because of magic or a deity, or won't because of ideology?
- Is the lack of an efficient guard a cause or a consequence of the lack of violence?
- How does this manifest itself, as in, are there no thieves' guilds or assassin's guilds at all there?

I know, probably redundant, but once summer is over, my party will probably journey through the radiant citadel, by ways of preparation I need to know the resistance they can, can't, will or won't meet.

Cheers

I think you're in the wrong thread mate.

I don't think so, actually.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/lets-create-the-non-soy-citadel/
I do believe the subject is touched upon here as well.

Though more so in the indicated thread
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 22, 2022, 11:27:09 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 11:01:53 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 10:58:57 AM
Quote from: Dylan on July 22, 2022, 10:55:51 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 10:51:19 AM
While we are at it, can somebody tell me succinctly, and not by hearsay, what is the thing with violence in the Radiant Citadel?

- Can't people commit violence, or won't people commit violence?
- Why not? Can't because of magic or a deity, or won't because of ideology?
- Is the lack of an efficient guard a cause or a consequence of the lack of violence?
- How does this manifest itself, as in, are there no thieves' guilds or assassin's guilds at all there?

I know, probably redundant, but once summer is over, my party will probably journey through the radiant citadel, by ways of preparation I need to know the resistance they can, can't, will or won't meet.

Cheers

I think you're in the wrong thread mate.

I don't think so, actually.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/lets-create-the-non-soy-citadel/

And you're wrong too, that thread isn't for discussin how does that shite works.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 22, 2022, 11:32:45 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 21, 2022, 08:09:41 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 10:39:47 PM
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 10:43:51 AMor how not all Vistani are evil

(And after some of the emotional outbursts I've seen regarding Fate of Cthulhu and the Ravenloft Campaign guide, I feel like there can be as much over reactionary screeching from the grognards as there is from the danger hairs.  "See this molehill!!!  It's massive!  Massive!"  Beam in your own eye battling with monsters and all that.)

1: This is one of the more crackheaded complaints and kowtowing. Why? Because originally the Vistani were presented as mostly nice welcoming folk. In the 2e Boxed set they are just kinda there and not presented as evil. Ruthlessly strict about maintaining racial purity. And bartering information with darklords. But not evil. Same on the White Wolf 3e version.

    This is true, but it should be noted that the gypsies of I6 are evil, and that module holds an outsized influence on people's perceptions of the overall setting, especially given how many times TSR and WotC have gone back to that well.

Actually in the I6 Module what is going on is the Module presents them as friendly or neutral and I did not find any outstanding moments of them acting evil even.

BUT.

The monster entry for them at the back says they are evil. Which contradicts the module. Just ignore the monster entry as its meaningless. The woke of course will screech endlessly about how bad and wrong the whole module is. Because they never bothered to fucking read it.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 22, 2022, 11:43:51 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
Case in point, the new Radiant Citadel book has been promoted everywhere on social media with the emphasis on the book having been produced by 50 people of color, and no white people. Wizards itself has done this promotion, through spokespersons like Ajit George (the lead on this book, who until recently had practically no experience in game design).

And yet, I've now been told (note: might be inaccurate) that in the physical book itself, the one gamers will look at in stores, it doesn't mention this ANYWHERE. If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda (note, by the way, the Radiant Citadel has "community policing" with restorative justice and treating crime as a mental health issue. In spite of this, and unlike everywhere in the real world where Defunding Police has been tried, the citadel supposedly has "very little crime".

Well we did predict that just based on the adventure synopsis given that What they were saying was going to be incompatible with what they were doing. And one or the other was going to be proven false.

And here we are and gosh. The "safe space" isnt as safe as they claim?

I'm waiting to hear how they actually screen the place to keep out every maniac in the universe trying to destroy or co-opt the place to evil. Assuming it isnt already.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 22, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:02:12 AM

So what you're saying is... people in the Radiant Citadel are mind-controlled into not committing crime? Cuz that's the only way that magic could interfere in this instance.

Magic cannot "magically" make unworkable policies work, it can only change the the circumstances that prevent those policies from working and only in limited and specific ways.

So the question is: What about creatures immune to mind control? And what's the save DC for this mind-control effect? Where does it originate? What's the mind-controlling object's or creature's stats? These elements need to be defined if we're using "magic" to make these policies "work".

1: Seems so. Sounds like the spell or psi power that alter memories.

2: Since when? Magic has been making unworkable policies work for a long long time. Ravenlofts Demiplane pretty much runs on it. I've been reading through the domains and lords. And theres at least 5 that literally impose some sort of broad range mental tweaking to the populace. And thats not even getting to any locale under the influence of a wish, artifact, etc that somehow enforces some type of action. And elven supermagic can impose some pretty potent effects on an area as well.

3: Thats the one I am waiting to hear how works too as its either stupid like "naughty people cant find the Citadel everrrrrrr." or something esoteric like "Elven super magic makes it so!".
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: jhkim on July 22, 2022, 12:32:46 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda (note, by the way, the Radiant Citadel has "community policing" with restorative justice and treating crime as a mental health issue. In spite of this, and unlike everywhere in the real world where Defunding Police has been tried, the citadel supposedly has "very little crime".

In general, I think it's fair to say that the citadel displays left-leaning utopianism, similar to how Tolkien's Shire and Lothlórien display his pastoral utopianism.

Specifically about policing, though, that's seems like a weird point since professional police forces were only invented in the 1800s, and other D&D communities also often don't have professional police. For example, the Village of Hommlet has community policing in the form of the local militia. In the Radiant Citadel, there are inspectors who investigate nonviolent crime, and "highly trained local guards" who handle violence. That sounds similar to how I'd handle it in other medieval fantasy cities, except probably the local guards aren't highly trained.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Tubesock Army on July 22, 2022, 01:53:04 PM
Quote from: Dylan Logos on July 22, 2022, 10:42:13 AM
Quote from: Skullking on July 22, 2022, 10:39:43 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 09:47:25 AM
The only context in which they mention magic in that section, however, is that in cases of severe offenses they magically mind-control a person to be unable to ever repeat the crime again. Which is quite Totalitarian and quite telling. 

So leftists are now using A Clockwork Orange as a society blueprint as well as 1984.

And The Turner Diaries - don't forget that one.

Hey, Dylan, stop using your actual picture as your avatar, 'cuz you ugly as fuck, son.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 02:16:12 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 10:28:39 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:02:12 AM
Magic cannot "magically" make
You're wrong.

Except that I'm not. Just because magic can seemingly "violate" the laws of physics in the context of a world where those laws can be bended without the entire fabric of the universe suddenly falling apart that doesn't mean that it can also make fundamentally illogical or internally inconsistent things true by fiat.

Saying that wanton murder and mutilation are morally good and desirable, and universally accepted and celebrated by everyone (including the people it's happening to), because "magic", for example, and that if you don't like it and cheer with joy as I slowly poke your eyes out with a screwdriver you simply lack imagination would be nonsensical.

QuoteEDIT: As an example, consider the Mirror Universe of Star Trek. The inhabitants of this universe are all morally hardwired toward bad behaviors and ugly morality.

And yet none that means that those behaviors aren't immoral, it just means that people in that universe are predisposed to not care. And IIRC the reason that the entire crew of the Enterprise was amoral in that episode was because in that timeline a corrupt government characterized by ladder climbing through backstabbing had emerged on Earth instead of the Federation, so they were incentivized to be brutal assholes to rise through the ranks. Not because some type of universal law arbitrarily made immoral behavior "good", because "science fiction". It was just an alternate reality, not a fundamental violation of logic.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 02:29:50 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 22, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:02:12 AM

So what you're saying is... people in the Radiant Citadel are mind-controlled into not committing crime? Cuz that's the only way that magic could interfere in this instance.

Magic cannot "magically" make unworkable policies work, it can only change the the circumstances that prevent those policies from working and only in limited and specific ways.

So the question is: What about creatures immune to mind control? And what's the save DC for this mind-control effect? Where does it originate? What's the mind-controlling object's or creature's stats? These elements need to be defined if we're using "magic" to make these policies "work".

2: Since when? Magic has been making unworkable policies work for a long long time. Ravenlofts Demiplane pretty much runs on it. I've been reading through the domains and lords. And theres at least 5 that literally impose some sort of broad range mental tweaking to the populace. And thats not even getting to any locale under the influence of a wish, artifact, etc that somehow enforces some type of action. And elven supermagic can impose some pretty potent effects on an area as well.

You're gonna have to be more specific, since I'm not sure what you're talking about here regarding Ravenloft, and I don't even recall many specific details of the setting or even have the books. I only skimmed through them from a friend decades ago.

Though, I believe I specified in post how magic could indirectly make unworkable policies work (by changing the circumstances that prevent those policies from working in limited and specific ways) and I get the impression that's what you're hinting happens in Ravenloft here.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 22, 2022, 02:57:59 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 02:29:50 PM
You're gonna have to be more specific, since I'm not sure what you're talking about here regarding Ravenloft, and I don't even recall many specific details of the setting or even have the books. I only skimmed through them from a friend decades ago.

One was I believe Bluebeards domain where everyone likes him and the populace is increasingly shaping into an ideal one for him. And no matter what he does they just explain it away. Theres another one where a powerful mentalist keeps adding more and more people under his dominion. And is in a sort of intrigue war with another potent mentalist with similar goals. Another that the land never civilizes much so that its mostly rural and animals rather than a well populated kingdom the villain craves. And so on. Some fairly sudtle. Like no matter what the heirs of the family will allways feud plot and backstab  to the end. And so on.

The PCs tend to be exempt. But I'd guess if they lingered in one place too long they might fall sway too.

Then theres those elven mega spells that exceed level 9 that can do pretty much anything. And there were mind effecting Mythals.

Outside of D&D theres the original TORG where the axioms of a cosm could overwrite things sometimes quite heavily if you faled to resist. And every time you did something contrary to those axioms it would try again to 'correct' the character. Cave man today. Gadgeteering pulp hero tomorrow.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: jhkim on July 22, 2022, 03:15:53 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 02:16:12 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 10:28:39 AM
EDIT: As an example, consider the Mirror Universe of Star Trek. The inhabitants of this universe are all morally hardwired toward bad behaviors and ugly morality.

And yet none that means that those behaviors aren't immoral, it just means that people in that universe are predisposed to not care. And IIRC the reason that the entire crew of the Enterprise was amoral in that episode was because in that timeline a corrupt government characterized by ladder climbing through backstabbing had emerged on Earth instead of the Federation, so they were incentivized to be brutal assholes to rise through the ranks. Not because some type of universal law arbitrarily made immoral behavior "good", because "science fiction". It was just an alternate reality, not a fundamental violation of logic.

First of all, I'd consider this off-topic from the Radiant Citadel. The citadel doesn't have broad magic that changes characters' behaviors. It just has a highly trained guard, inspectors, and powerful good-aligned authorities. There's now a separate thread discussing that here:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/violence-and-crime-in-the-radiant-citadel-what-and-how/

Regarding the tangent -- VisionStorm, it seems like you're conflating your own morality with how characters in the game world view morality. For example, in Traveller the Zhodani grow up in a telepathic society where literal thought police make sure that no one is antisocial or criminal. I consider their society to be evil, but they consider the thought police to be good. It is internally consistent that they believe this and that their society functions by the use of psionic powers.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 03:35:05 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 02:16:12 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 10:28:39 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:02:12 AM
Magic cannot "magically" make
You're wrong.

Except that I'm not. Just because magic can seemingly "violate" the laws of physics in the context of a world where those laws can be bended without the entire fabric of the universe suddenly falling apart that doesn't mean that it can also make fundamentally illogical or internally inconsistent things true by fiat.

Saying that wanton murder and mutilation are morally good and desirable, and universally accepted and celebrated by everyone (including the people it's happening to), because "magic", for example, and that if you don't like it and cheer with joy as I slowly poke your eyes out with a screwdriver you simply lack imagination would be nonsensical.

QuoteEDIT: As an example, consider the Mirror Universe of Star Trek. The inhabitants of this universe are all morally hardwired toward bad behaviors and ugly morality.

And yet none that means that those behaviors aren't immoral, it just means that people in that universe are predisposed to not care. And IIRC the reason that the entire crew of the Enterprise was amoral in that episode was because in that timeline a corrupt government characterized by ladder climbing through backstabbing had emerged on Earth instead of the Federation, so they were incentivized to be brutal assholes to rise through the ranks. Not because some type of universal law arbitrarily made immoral behavior "good", because "science fiction". It was just an alternate reality, not a fundamental violation of logic.
No, the Mirror Universe fundamentally promoted a darkly warped morality for everyone native to it, not just the Terrans. There may have been some individuals in the Mirror Universe that were good people, but they were aberrations. A reverse of this might apply to the game universe that WotC is proposing for the Radiant Citadel--in it, most people are inherently cooperative with the authorities as described in RC and deviation from that is truly aberrant behvior. one that the inhabitants pull together to deal with. IOW, it's simply not a shades of gray world like IRL.

And as to your original rebuttal, magic can certainly be used to explain why things that are "fundamentally illogical" are logical in a fantasy setting--because they can alter those fundaments directly through rewriting world/setting laws (just as the Mirror Universe does with ST morality).
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Valatar on July 22, 2022, 05:06:47 PM
I'd actually consider that setting sort of interesting if it did actually go into detail of the "utopia" of psionically dominating anyone who causes trouble.  I'm reminded of the Next Gen episode where they find a world that's an amazing peaceful land of bliss, oops, turns out it's because they execute anyone for even the mildest infraction.  I could see some fertile ground for adventure if the party's rogue gets hauled off by the "community mental health professionals" after being caught shoplifting and suddenly the party has the weight of that government coming down on them when they try to save their friend from getting brain-blasted.

There is no war in Ba-sing-se.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Dylan: King of the Dead on July 22, 2022, 05:14:19 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 22, 2022, 01:53:04 PM
Quote from: Dylan Logos on July 22, 2022, 10:42:13 AM
Quote from: Skullking on July 22, 2022, 10:39:43 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 09:47:25 AM
The only context in which they mention magic in that section, however, is that in cases of severe offenses they magically mind-control a person to be unable to ever repeat the crime again. Which is quite Totalitarian and quite telling. 

So leftists are now using A Clockwork Orange as a society blueprint as well as 1984.

And The Turner Diaries - don't forget that one.

Hey, Dylan, stop using your actual picture as your avatar, 'cuz you ugly as fuck, son.

LOL. Let's just say it's not mine; rather, it's [a] Dick T's.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Shasarak on July 22, 2022, 05:23:04 PM
Quote from: Dylan Logos on July 22, 2022, 09:48:41 AM
I personally think it's fair for WoTC to legislate when one can and cannot do "drow face" or whatever. They own the IP after all, and there have to be at least SOME occasions or situations where it isn't appropriate.

Tell us more about what WotC can legislate with their IP.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 05:48:23 PM
@jhkim, HappyDaze & Omega

Everything that you're describing here seems to be some variation of extreme magical (or equivalent) brainwashing, probability manipulation or weird reality rewriting rather than policies that don't work in real life seamlessly working in fiction because "magic". And it always seems to fall apart any time you introduce a rogue element that doesn't operate by those strictures, like PCs entering a Ravenloft domain where the Lord has some weird reality bending power within their domain, or people from outside the Star Trek Mirror Universe traveling to the Mirror Universe, either of which are unaffected.

So we're still ultimately saying that in order for the rules of the Radiant Citadel to work "because magic", some type of creepy mind-control has to be going on, as critics have pointed out every time this topic has come up before in prior Radiant Citadel threads. Which begs the question: how do we handle that in-game? What happens when PCs start violating these rules? What about NPC adventurers that essentially operate like PCs in terms of free will? Do these characters get hit by a charm spell? What's the save DC? What about characters with immunity to mind-control? Etc.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: jhkim on July 22, 2022, 06:37:40 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 05:48:23 PM
So we're still ultimately saying that in order for the rules of the Radiant Citadel to work "because magic", some type of creepy mind-control has to be going on, as critics have pointed out every time this topic has come up before in prior Radiant Citadel threads. Which begs the question: how do we handle that in-game? What happens when PCs start violating these rules? What about NPC adventurers that essentially operate like PCs in terms of free will? Do these characters get hit by a charm spell? What's the save DC? What about characters with immunity to mind-control? Etc.

As I clarified earlier, if we want to talk about Radiant Citadel, I think it's more appropriate to discuss in Kerstmanneke82's thread,

Violence and Crime in the Radiant Citadel: what and how? (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/violence-and-crime-in-the-radiant-citadel-what-and-how/)

This stuff about magic is based on HappyDaze's hypothetical, not anything in the Radiant Citadel book.

The Radiant Citadel book says that crime rates are low because of highly trained guards who deal with violent crime and inspectors who deal with non-violent crime, as well as other authorities.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 22, 2022, 08:12:24 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 05:48:23 PM
@jhkim, HappyDaze & Omega

Everything that you're describing here seems to be some variation of extreme magical (or equivalent) brainwashing, probability manipulation or weird reality rewriting rather than policies that don't work in real life seamlessly working in fiction because "magic".

And it always seems to fall apart any time you introduce a rogue element that doesn't operate by those strictures, like PCs entering a Ravenloft domain where the Lord has some weird reality bending power within their domain, or people from outside the Star Trek Mirror Universe traveling to the Mirror Universe, either of which are unaffected.

1: Nice try moving the goalposts. But sorry. No. Those were examples of unworkable policy working because... magic. As said. Ravenloft seems to be dotted with these. Not positive but looks like the recent reveal was that there was a Mythal that was keeping dragons from rampaging too much. Now that its been tampered with it instead causes dragons to raid more.

I am rather surprised that for Citadel they didnt just have the peace being enforced by a Mythal. Wham Bam Utopia Mam.

2: Because otherwise it would be a rather short adventure if the PCs instantly fell prey to whatever mind warping is going on. And, again, Ravenloft is not always so kind to PCs.

Other times the PCs hyst havent been there long enough yet to fall under the power.

And in other cases they have to abide it like everyone else and figure out how to get the job done anyhoo.

So. So far you've just been desperately trying to cherry pick some tenuous reason your tenuous argument cant be blown away in a light breeze.

Keep struggling.

Or man up and admit that yeah there are examples that disprove your claim. Because as usual. Whatever WOTC does, Badly, odds are TSR way the hell back did better. Or even WOTC way back laid the groundwork for.

But so far looks like Radiant Citadel really is shaping up to be a poor mans knock off of Sigil.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 22, 2022, 09:45:07 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 22, 2022, 05:23:04 PM
Quote from: Dylan Logos on July 22, 2022, 09:48:41 AM
I personally think it's fair for WoTC to legislate when one can and cannot do "drow face" or whatever. They own the IP after all, and there have to be at least SOME occasions or situations where it isn't appropriate.

Tell us more about what WotC can legislate with their IP.

At their table, event they are funding, etc? They can do whatever, outside of that? They can kiss my ass.

Edited to add:

I'm more interested on stoping Dylan's necro-threading. But, alas, unless it's against the rules I'll have to put up with THAT.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 10:04:22 PM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 10:51:19 AM
While we are at it, can somebody tell me succinctly, and not by hearsay, what is the thing with violence in the Radiant Citadel?

- Can't people commit violence, or won't people commit violence?
- Why not? Can't because of magic or a deity, or won't because of ideology?
- Is the lack of an efficient guard a cause or a consequence of the lack of violence?
- How does this manifest itself, as in, are there no thieves' guilds or assassin's guilds at all there?

I know, probably redundant, but once summer is over, my party will probably journey through the radiant citadel, by ways of preparation I need to know the resistance they can, can't, will or won't meet.

Cheers

Nope, from what I understand it is just because they have such a perfect leftist multicultural society that there's almost no crime or violence.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 10:07:50 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 22, 2022, 12:32:46 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda (note, by the way, the Radiant Citadel has "community policing" with restorative justice and treating crime as a mental health issue. In spite of this, and unlike everywhere in the real world where Defunding Police has been tried, the citadel supposedly has "very little crime".

In general, I think it's fair to say that the citadel displays left-leaning utopianism, similar to how Tolkien's Shire and Lothlórien display his pastoral utopianism.

Specifically about policing, though, that's seems like a weird point since professional police forces were only invented in the 1800s, and other D&D communities also often don't have professional police. For example, the Village of Hommlet has community policing in the form of the local militia. In the Radiant Citadel, there are inspectors who investigate nonviolent crime, and "highly trained local guards" who handle violence. That sounds similar to how I'd handle it in other medieval fantasy cities, except probably the local guards aren't highly trained.

I agree that it is an anachronism but the anachronism is because of the MESSAGE they wanted to have in the book. It's very clearly an allegory for Defund the Police. They didn't do things this way because they were desperate to have medieval authentic accuracy. They did it because they want to indoctrinate people into the idea that if there were no police there'd be no crime.
In the real historical world, in most preindustrial societies the cities were rife with levels of crime that would be shocking to us.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:10:53 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 22, 2022, 08:12:24 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 05:48:23 PM
@jhkim, HappyDaze & Omega

Everything that you're describing here seems to be some variation of extreme magical (or equivalent) brainwashing, probability manipulation or weird reality rewriting rather than policies that don't work in real life seamlessly working in fiction because "magic".

And it always seems to fall apart any time you introduce a rogue element that doesn't operate by those strictures, like PCs entering a Ravenloft domain where the Lord has some weird reality bending power within their domain, or people from outside the Star Trek Mirror Universe traveling to the Mirror Universe, either of which are unaffected.

1: Nice try moving the goalposts. But sorry. No. Those were examples of unworkable policy working because... magic. As said. Ravenloft seems to be dotted with these. Not positive but looks like the recent reveal was that there was a Mythal that was keeping dragons from rampaging too much. Now that its been tampered with it instead causes dragons to raid more.

I am rather surprised that for Citadel they didnt just have the peace being enforced by a Mythal. Wham Bam Utopia Mam.

2: Because otherwise it would be a rather short adventure if the PCs instantly fell prey to whatever mind warping is going on. And, again, Ravenloft is not always so kind to PCs.

Other times the PCs hyst havent been there long enough yet to fall under the power.

And in other cases they have to abide it like everyone else and figure out how to get the job done anyhoo.

So. So far you've just been desperately trying to cherry pick some tenuous reason your tenuous argument cant be blown away in a light breeze.

Keep struggling.

Or man up and admit that yeah there are examples that disprove your claim. Because as usual. Whatever WOTC does, Badly, odds are TSR way the hell back did better. Or even WOTC way back laid the groundwork for.

But so far looks like Radiant Citadel really is shaping up to be a poor mans knock off of Sigil.

Not sure what you're talking about here. Where did I move the goalposts? I'm talking the same thing we were discussing from the get go. My argument hasn't changed.

And no example you provided even has anything that looks like a policy or something similar. Though, it's hard to tell cuz they were all really vague. Like for example you mention: "Bluebeards domain where everyone likes him and the populace is increasingly shaping into an ideal one for him. And no matter what he does they just explain it away." But what does that even mean? And what specifically going here that's been manipulated by magic? I just can't tell from what you're saying here at all. Like, everyone likes Bluebeard; OK, but so what? Maybe the guy is really charismatic for all I know. You're not giving me enough detail here to see how magic is even manipulating anything here. Nothing about those two sentences implies anything supernatural I haven't encountered IRL when dealing with charismatic individuals.

You also mention "powerful mentalists" adding more people to their dominion or whatever. But how is that even magical? And how does it compare to "unworkable policies" that don't produce the expected results IRL suddenly working because of "magic"? Is he mind-controlling people into coming to his domain? Sounds like you're making my point for me if he is, cuz that's what I've been arguing all along about this. That magic cannot just "magically" make unworkable policies work--at least not directly--but it can do indirect stuff, like mind-control people into doing things that would achieve similar goals (such as defunding the police...and then stopping crime by mind-controlling people into not committing crime. However, the policy itself would still not work--your just doing something else--by magic--to achieve the expected result). But maybe you meant something else, IDK. Again, the details you're giving me are vague AF.

Then by the end you mention "TORG where the axioms of a cosm could overwrite things sometimes quite heavily if you faled to resist". If they overwrite things and you get to resist them, then you're still taking about magic changing reality or mind-controlling people rather than ACTUALLY making "unworkable policies work". The policies still don't work, you're just rewriting reality to remove the failures of those policies or whatever.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Shasarak on July 22, 2022, 10:43:02 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 22, 2022, 08:12:24 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 05:48:23 PM
@jhkim, HappyDaze & Omega

Everything that you're describing here seems to be some variation of extreme magical (or equivalent) brainwashing, probability manipulation or weird reality rewriting rather than policies that don't work in real life seamlessly working in fiction because "magic".

And it always seems to fall apart any time you introduce a rogue element that doesn't operate by those strictures, like PCs entering a Ravenloft domain where the Lord has some weird reality bending power within their domain, or people from outside the Star Trek Mirror Universe traveling to the Mirror Universe, either of which are unaffected.

1: Nice try moving the goalposts. But sorry. No. Those were examples of unworkable policy working because... magic. As said. Ravenloft seems to be dotted with these. Not positive but looks like the recent reveal was that there was a Mythal that was keeping dragons from rampaging too much. Now that its been tampered with it instead causes dragons to raid more.

I am rather surprised that for Citadel they didnt just have the peace being enforced by a Mythal. Wham Bam Utopia Mam.

Mythals are just a Deus Ex Machina.

Dont think too hard its just magic.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Omega on July 23, 2022, 03:09:51 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 10:04:22 PM

Nope, from what I understand it is just because they have such a perfect leftist multicultural society that there's almost no crime or violence.

Turns out what it really is is they have police/gustapo while trying to pass them off as Citizen Patrols. uh-huh. Suuuuure.

So there is crime and violence in the 'save space'. Hurray for WOTC dropping their own damn ball. That is an accomplishment.

Then again TSR did that with Planescape. Realm of the gods my ass. Fun setting but not even remotely what they were touting.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: jhkim on July 23, 2022, 04:42:40 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 23, 2022, 03:09:51 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 10:04:22 PM
Nope, from what I understand it is just because they have such a perfect leftist multicultural society that there's almost no crime or violence.

Turns out what it really is is they have police/gustapo while trying to pass them off as Citizen Patrols. uh-huh. Suuuuure.

So there is crime and violence in the 'save space'. Hurray for WOTC dropping their own damn ball. That is an accomplishment.

Then again TSR did that with Planescape. Realm of the gods my ass. Fun setting but not even remotely what they were touting.

I discuss crime in the citadel in Kerstmanneke82's violence and crime thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/violence-and-crime-in-the-radiant-citadel-what-and-how/).
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 05:14:05 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 23, 2022, 03:09:51 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 10:04:22 PM

Nope, from what I understand it is just because they have such a perfect leftist multicultural society that there's almost no crime or violence.

Turns out what it really is is they have police/gustapo while trying to pass them off as Citizen Patrols. uh-huh. Suuuuure.


Not police. "Citizen patrols" are like the Government-supporting street gangs in Venezuela. It's like what happened in Seattle during the CHAZ.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: HappyDaze on July 23, 2022, 06:20:43 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 05:14:05 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 23, 2022, 03:09:51 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 10:04:22 PM

Nope, from what I understand it is just because they have such a perfect leftist multicultural society that there's almost no crime or violence.

Turns out what it really is is they have police/gustapo while trying to pass them off as Citizen Patrols. uh-huh. Suuuuure.


Not police. "Citizen patrols" are like the Government-supporting street gangs in Venezuela. It's like what happened in Seattle during the CHAZ.
Historically, when did formal policing begin? What existed in the transition?
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: Thorn Drumheller on July 23, 2022, 07:16:42 PM
Well it's a good thing I stopped caring how others told me to run my game. They can get my money if I choose to buy something but they get zero say in how I use the material. LOL
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: MeganovaStella on July 23, 2022, 10:43:50 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:10:53 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 22, 2022, 08:12:24 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 05:48:23 PM
@jhkim, HappyDaze & Omega

Everything that you're describing here seems to be some variation of extreme magical (or equivalent) brainwashing, probability manipulation or weird reality rewriting rather than policies that don't work in real life seamlessly working in fiction because "magic".

And it always seems to fall apart any time you introduce a rogue element that doesn't operate by those strictures, like PCs entering a Ravenloft domain where the Lord has some weird reality bending power within their domain, or people from outside the Star Trek Mirror Universe traveling to the Mirror Universe, either of which are unaffected.

1: Nice try moving the goalposts. But sorry. No. Those were examples of unworkable policy working because... magic. As said. Ravenloft seems to be dotted with these. Not positive but looks like the recent reveal was that there was a Mythal that was keeping dragons from rampaging too much. Now that its been tampered with it instead causes dragons to raid more.

I am rather surprised that for Citadel they didnt just have the peace being enforced by a Mythal. Wham Bam Utopia Mam.

2: Because otherwise it would be a rather short adventure if the PCs instantly fell prey to whatever mind warping is going on. And, again, Ravenloft is not always so kind to PCs.

Other times the PCs hyst havent been there long enough yet to fall under the power.

And in other cases they have to abide it like everyone else and figure out how to get the job done anyhoo.

So. So far you've just been desperately trying to cherry pick some tenuous reason your tenuous argument cant be blown away in a light breeze.

Keep struggling.

Or man up and admit that yeah there are examples that disprove your claim. Because as usual. Whatever WOTC does, Badly, odds are TSR way the hell back did better. Or even WOTC way back laid the groundwork for.

But so far looks like Radiant Citadel really is shaping up to be a poor mans knock off of Sigil.

Not sure what you're talking about here. Where did I move the goalposts? I'm talking the same thing we were discussing from the get go. My argument hasn't changed.

And no example you provided even has anything that looks like a policy or something similar. Though, it's hard to tell cuz they were all really vague. Like for example you mention: "Bluebeards domain where everyone likes him and the populace is increasingly shaping into an ideal one for him. And no matter what he does they just explain it away." But what does that even mean? And what specifically going here that's been manipulated by magic? I just can't tell from what you're saying here at all. Like, everyone likes Bluebeard; OK, but so what? Maybe the guy is really charismatic for all I know. You're not giving me enough detail here to see how magic is even manipulating anything here. Nothing about those two sentences implies anything supernatural I haven't encountered IRL when dealing with charismatic individuals.

You also mention "powerful mentalists" adding more people to their dominion or whatever. But how is that even magical? And how does it compare to "unworkable policies" that don't produce the expected results IRL suddenly working because of "magic"? Is he mind-controlling people into coming to his domain? Sounds like you're making my point for me if he is, cuz that's what I've been arguing all along about this. That magic cannot just "magically" make unworkable policies work--at least not directly--but it can do indirect stuff, like mind-control people into doing things that would achieve similar goals (such as defunding the police...and then stopping crime by mind-controlling people into not committing crime. However, the policy itself would still not work--your just doing something else--by magic--to achieve the expected result). But maybe you meant something else, IDK. Again, the details you're giving me are vague AF.

Then by the end you mention "TORG where the axioms of a cosm could overwrite things sometimes quite heavily if you faled to resist". If they overwrite things and you get to resist them, then you're still taking about magic changing reality or mind-controlling people rather than ACTUALLY making "unworkable policies work". The policies still don't work, you're just rewriting reality to remove the failures of those policies or whatever.

i think what he's saying is that the people in the setting are using magic to rewire the basic nature of people to something that would work with their policies
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 24, 2022, 11:06:33 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 05:14:05 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 23, 2022, 03:09:51 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 10:04:22 PM

Nope, from what I understand it is just because they have such a perfect leftist multicultural society that there's almost no crime or violence.

Turns out what it really is is they have police/gustapo while trying to pass them off as Citizen Patrols. uh-huh. Suuuuure.


Not police. "Citizen patrols" are like the Government-supporting street gangs in Venezuela. It's like what happened in Seattle during the CHAZ.

A rose by any other name...
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: GhostNinja on July 24, 2022, 11:56:03 AM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 19, 2022, 07:36:46 PM
Should be easy to prove.  Pundit purports to quote directly from the source material.   Check the source and tell us if he made up the quotes. Simple.  Of course, you would have to engage with his points, as opposed to trying to denigrate them by association.  That's the way the woke do things... find one error and then assert that everything said in the past, present, and future is wrong due to that singular error.

So, did Pundit make up the quotes as you are asserting?  Because if you aren't asserting that, then why bring it up (other that to smear something factual with a previous error that has nothing to do with it)?  That's just sleazy.

Scanning the PDF of Journeys through the radiant citadel (Didn't pay for it) and found this:

"Broad Descriptions: Describe everyone's features, not just those whose features are different from your own"

"Details, not Stereotypes: When describing a character's appearance, strive to detail more than just one thing and avoid descriptions based on stereotypes"



Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: GhostNinja on July 24, 2022, 12:09:09 PM
I read the quotes that he is talking about and while they are there in the final product, the Pundit is going more into Hyperbole (which I thinks most of his videos are more Hyperbole than fact).   He assumes without fact that the people writing it haven't played D&D.  We don't know if they have played or not.

They are not trying to gain control of what DM's and players are doing in their game, they are just being WOKE to appease the woke assholes out there.  The shit they say in the book can be easily ignored.  They are fucking up D&D but the idea they are granting control of what a DM can and can't do is just not what is happening.  Even Wizards know they can't control what happens in home games.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: GhostNinja on July 24, 2022, 12:11:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 23, 2022, 06:20:43 PM
Historically, when did formal policing begin? What existed in the transition?

There is no policing.  I have read it (didn't pay for the PDF) and they are just suggestions made by Wizards to appease the woke assholes.  The rest is just hyperbole.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 03:59:49 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on July 24, 2022, 12:09:09 PM
I read the quotes that he is talking about and while they are there in the final product, the Pundit is going more into Hyperbole (which I thinks most of his videos are more Hyperbole than fact).   He assumes without fact that the people writing it haven't played D&D.  We don't know if they have played or not.

It's not an assumption. You can check what their RPG-design credits are. Several of them have little or none. Even Ajit George's (who was made the lead designer of the project) only major contribution appears to be an adventure for the Candlekeep book before this, which was another make-work project for wokists. His real job is that he works for some kind of "charity" with leftist overtones. Others in Citadel include video game designers/feminists, the marketing director for critical role (obligatory hire to keep in nice with Matt Mercer?), a feminist YA sci fi writer,  and a writer of Vegan Cookbooks.  What's BLATANTLY clear is that not one of these people were primarily hired because they are skilled, experienced, or any good at game design or writing RPG adventures.

In some cases (the Vegan Cookbook writer, for example) it appears they were hired for being friends or acquaintances of Ajit George (and, we can presume other people at WoTC).

Some of these people are so totally unfamiliar with D&D they may never have actually played. One of these people, Felice Kuan (the feminist video gamer) admitted she didn't even know how to make statblocks and so she needed a WoTC permanent wage-slave  to do the mechanical work for her.

Another thing that is blatantly clear is that they were ALSO not hired for the basis of any actual knowledge of the cultures they were writing about. Almost none of them are the product of careful meaningful historical or mythological research. Most of them are just based on lived experiences as 2nd or 3rd gen immigrant descendants of those cultures (or of cultures that are themselves distantly descended from the setting; like, seriously, how does the Left believe that some kid who grew up in LA and barely speaks Persian is automatically an expert on Ancient Persian History because of magic blood?).

No, the race thing is not actually central to the hiring process, it was just a litmus test for entry. And game design skill had nothing to do with it obviously. So the only two qualifications I can see is:
a) you were a friend or business interest of either Ajit George or other people in WoTC (essentially make-work project)
b) You are a sufficient adequate of Woke totalitarian ideology.

That's it.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 05:12:38 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 03:59:49 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on July 24, 2022, 12:09:09 PM
I read the quotes that he is talking about and while they are there in the final product, the Pundit is going more into Hyperbole (which I thinks most of his videos are more Hyperbole than fact).   He assumes without fact that the people writing it haven't played D&D.  We don't know if they have played or not.

It's not an assumption. You can check what their RPG-design credits are. Several of them have little or none. Even Ajit George's (who was made the lead designer of the project) only major contribution appears to be an adventure for the Candlekeep book before this, which was another make-work project for wokists. His real job is that he works for some kind of "charity" with leftist overtones.

The vast majority of RPG writers have a "real job" rather than making a living primarily through RPG writing. That's true even for many established writers. They play D&D as a hobby, have a real job to pay the bills, and freelance to write for RPG companies.


Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 03:59:49 PMSome of these people are so totally unfamiliar with D&D they may never have actually played. One of these people, Felice Kuan (the feminist video gamer) admitted she didn't even know how to make statblocks and so she needed a WoTC permanent wage-slave  to do the mechanical work for her.

Kuan says that she got into playing D&D in 2016 when working to develop a sequence of playing D&D in a modern-day video game. Here's her description of it:

QuoteIf you've played the episodic video game Life is Strange: Before the Storm and were thrilled to experience a Dungeons & Dragons session with two of its NPCs, then you have writer Felice Tzehuei Kuan to thank.

"My biggest D&D claim to fame is that fan-favorite sequence in the game," says Colorado-based Felice, who works as a narrative director at the video game company Deck Nine. "I was one of the writers on that optional story segment, where you get to sit down with the characters Steph and Mikey to play D&D with them for about 20 minutes. Before we wrote that, we played D&D as research. That's what got me into playing."

Felice first met Ajit A. George, one of the project leads on the D&D adventure anthology Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, at a live-action roleplaying convention. Their game careers have developed in parallel, and the call from Ajit to add her voice to the book was the first chance they've had to collaborate on a project.

"He reached out to me. In my day job I lead a team of writers and narrative designers and we write cinematic narrative adventure games, but this is my first tabletop publication. It's been an awesome first project," she reveals, adding that creating her adventure, "Buried Dynasty," for 13th-level D&D characters didn't faze her.
Source: https://dnd.wizards.com/news/buried-dynasty-felice-kuan

I'm not sure where you got the info about the stat blocks. From what I see, she's been playing D&D for a few years and is a professional game writer, but hadn't previously published anything for tabletop games. It's possible that she needed help with stat blocks for her 13th level adventure, but that's different than saying she didn't play D&D.

Her only connection to Ajit was evidently meeting at a role-playing convention, and this was supposedly their first collaboration together. For the record, I also met Ajit at a role-playing convention (Wyrd Con in 2012 or 2013). These might not be your sort of gamers, but they're still gamers.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: RPGPundit on July 26, 2022, 12:50:49 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 05:12:38 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 03:59:49 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on July 24, 2022, 12:09:09 PM
I read the quotes that he is talking about and while they are there in the final product, the Pundit is going more into Hyperbole (which I thinks most of his videos are more Hyperbole than fact).   He assumes without fact that the people writing it haven't played D&D.  We don't know if they have played or not.

It's not an assumption. You can check what their RPG-design credits are. Several of them have little or none. Even Ajit George's (who was made the lead designer of the project) only major contribution appears to be an adventure for the Candlekeep book before this, which was another make-work project for wokists. His real job is that he works for some kind of "charity" with leftist overtones.

The vast majority of RPG writers have a "real job" rather than making a living primarily through RPG writing. That's true even for many established writers. They play D&D as a hobby, have a real job to pay the bills, and freelance to write for RPG companies.

Yes, undoubtedly. Not everyone can do what I do and live full-time off of my skill at writing RPG products.

However, historically most of the people who wrote for D&D were either full time employees or highly-experienced freelancers who had to have a long list of RPG WRITING credits to their names in order to get hired to write in a major campaign book for Wizards.

Now, it seems to largely hinge on  how popular you are on either leftist twitch or leftist twitter plus if you personally know one of the people in the leads, regardless of any experience or talent. Of course, if you're not fulfilling some kind of diversity quota (ideally multiple diversity quotas at once) you're much less likely to be hired too. It's pathetic.


Quote
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 03:59:49 PMSome of these people are so totally unfamiliar with D&D they may never have actually played. One of these people, Felice Kuan (the feminist video gamer) admitted she didn't even know how to make statblocks and so she needed a WoTC permanent wage-slave  to do the mechanical work for her.

Kuan says that she got into playing D&D in 2016 when working to develop a sequence of playing D&D in a modern-day video game. Here's her description of it:

QuoteIf you've played the episodic video game Life is Strange: Before the Storm and were thrilled to experience a Dungeons & Dragons session with two of its NPCs, then you have writer Felice Tzehuei Kuan to thank.

How many people have ever even heard of that video game? What you're saying is that she's not even a real video game designer.  She's one of these people who makes video games about feelings.

Quote"My biggest D&D claim to fame is that fan-favorite sequence in the game," says Colorado-based Felice, who works as a narrative director at the video game company Deck Nine. "I was one of the writers on that optional story segment, where you get to sit down with the characters Steph and Mikey to play D&D with them for about 20 minutes. Before we wrote that, we played D&D as research. That's what got me into playing."

Felice first met Ajit A. George

Oh look, another person who was hired because Ajit George was simping for her.

Quoteone of the project leads on the D&D adventure anthology Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, at a live-action roleplaying convention. Their game careers have developed in parallel, and the call from Ajit to add her voice to the book was the first chance they've had to collaborate on a project.

"He reached out to me. In my day job I lead a team of writers and narrative designers and we write cinematic narrative adventure games, but this is my first tabletop publication. It's been an awesome first project," she reveals, adding that creating her adventure, "Buried Dynasty," for 13th-level D&D characters didn't faze her.
Source: https://dnd.wizards.com/news/buried-dynasty-felice-kuan

I'm not sure where you got the info about the stat blocks. From what I see, she's been playing D&D for a few years and is a professional game writer,

She's a professional non-combat game narrative writer. That's not a real game designer, or even a real game writer. She's basically a young adult lit fanfic writer.

Quotebut hadn't previously published anything for tabletop games. It's possible that she needed help with stat blocks for her 13th level adventure, but that's different than saying she didn't play D&D.

In a podcast she admits that she is a big nerd but mostly in larping. She doesn't seem to detail any other incident of having played D&D except that one time with Ajit George. In a tweet she said that she was helped with the actual gaming stuff by Justice Arman, who at least seems to be a serious gamer but is also another cooking guy, and second generation immigrant. He's also apparently sufficiently distanced from the reality of his ancestral homeland in the present as to have a demented fantasy-based favorable posture toward the Iranian Ayatollah's brutal theocracy, the real inspiration for the Handmaiden's Tale (ironically).  I guess his leftism beats out any sense of loyalty to his own people.
I haven't yet looked at proof, but I'm betting the venezuelan they have on the project, the one who thinks making a D&D adventure about Arepas (seriously, what the fuck is it about these people and cooking?!) is a great idea, also won't have a single bad thing to say about the Chavez bolivarean socialist dictatorship in Venezuela either.

Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: GhostNinja on July 26, 2022, 08:33:17 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 03:59:49 PM
It's not an assumption. You can check what their RPG-design credits are. Several of them have little or none. Even Ajit George's (who was made the lead designer of the project) only major contribution appears to be an adventure for the Candlekeep book before this, which was another make-work project for wokists. His real job is that he works for some kind of "charity" with leftist overtones. Others in Citadel include video game designers/feminists, the marketing director for critical role (obligatory hire to keep in nice with Matt Mercer?), a feminist YA sci fi writer,  and a writer of Vegan Cookbooks.  What's BLATANTLY clear is that not one of these people were primarily hired because they are skilled, experienced, or any good at game design or writing RPG adventures.


Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 03:59:49 PMSome of these people are so totally unfamiliar with D&D they may never have actually played. One of these people, Felice Kuan (the feminist video gamer) admitted she didn't even know how to make statblocks and so she needed a WoTC permanent wage-slave  to do the mechanical work for her.

Ok that's actually one person you have proved doesn't know D&D.  The fact that they hired anyone who doesn't know D&D is troubling, I will agree with you there.


Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 03:59:49 PM
Another thing that is blatantly clear is that they were ALSO not hired for the basis of any actual knowledge of the cultures they were writing about. Almost none of them are the product of careful meaningful historical or mythological research. Most of them are just based on lived experiences as 2nd or 3rd gen immigrant descendants of those cultures (or of cultures that are themselves distantly descended from the setting; like, seriously, how does the Left believe that some kid who grew up in LA and barely speaks Persian is automatically an expert on Ancient Persian History because of magic blood?).

Wizards puts out a shit product.  No Surprise.


Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 03:59:49 PM
No, the race thing is not actually central to the hiring process, it was just a litmus test for entry. And game design skill had nothing to do with it obviously. So the only two qualifications I can see is:
a) you were a friend or business interest of either Ajit George or other people in WoTC (essentially make-work project)
b) You are a sufficient adequate of Woke totalitarian ideology.

That's it.

Again since you don't have facts you jump to hyperbole.    I don't know who the hell Ajit George is or anyone who works at WOTC and I have already said in my posts that the Woke shit is crap.  Reading comprehension is your friend.
Title: Re: WoTC's Regulations for DMs Playing NPCs of Other Cultures
Post by: GhostNinja on July 26, 2022, 08:37:08 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 03:59:49 PM
It's not an assumption. You can check what their RPG-design credits are. Several of them have little or none. Even Ajit George's (who was made the lead designer of the project) only major contribution appears to be an adventure for the Candlekeep book before this, which was another make-work project for wokists. His real job is that he works for some kind of "charity" with leftist overtones. Others in Citadel include video game designers/feminists, the marketing director for critical role (obligatory hire to keep in nice with Matt Mercer?), a feminist YA sci fi writer,  and a writer of Vegan Cookbooks.  What's BLATANTLY clear is that not one of these people were primarily hired because they are skilled, experienced, or any good at game design or writing RPG adventures.

How does any of this prove that any of these people dont or haven't played D&D?

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 03:59:49 PMSome of these people are so totally unfamiliar with D&D they may never have actually played. One of these people, Felice Kuan (the feminist video gamer) admitted she didn't even know how to make statblocks and so she needed a WoTC permanent wage-slave  to do the mechanical work for her.

Ok that's actually one person you have proved doesn't know D&D.  The fact that they hired anyone who doesn't know D&D is troubling, I will agree with you there.


Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 03:59:49 PM
Another thing that is blatantly clear is that they were ALSO not hired for the basis of any actual knowledge of the cultures they were writing about. Almost none of them are the product of careful meaningful historical or mythological research. Most of them are just based on lived experiences as 2nd or 3rd gen immigrant descendants of those cultures (or of cultures that are themselves distantly descended from the setting; like, seriously, how does the Left believe that some kid who grew up in LA and barely speaks Persian is automatically an expert on Ancient Persian History because of magic blood?).

Wizards puts out a shit product.  No Surprise.


Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 03:59:49 PM
No, the race thing is not actually central to the hiring process, it was just a litmus test for entry. And game design skill had nothing to do with it obviously. So the only two qualifications I can see is:
a) you were a friend or business interest of either Ajit George or other people in WoTC (essentially make-work project)
b) You are a sufficient adequate of Woke totalitarian ideology.

That's it.

Again since you don't have facts you jump to hyperbole.    I don't know who the hell Ajit George is or anyone who works at WOTC and I have already said in my posts that the Woke shit is crap.  Reading comprehension is your friend.