Quote from: Palleon on January 02, 2022, 09:19:35 AM

Quote from: Willmark on January 02, 2022, 08:24:52 AM

Quote from: Pat on December 28, 2021, 01:26:35 AM

Quote from: Willmark on December 27, 2021, 11:32:09 PM
Yes, and?

You were wrong, I corrected you. Demons and devils were excised from 2e, due to pressure from an outside hate group. Whether you still used your old books doesn't change that.

Not really, try again when you have something better. As I noted and below does far better than I as well. I posted two separate thoughts, in my commentary on this so lets point it out again.

1. Devils and Demons were renamed. If you don't like names, change them (point #1). EDIT and I'll take Jim Ward's stance over yours as to what they did at the time. Later on the were fully detailed with (oh the horror!) different names in Planescape and the various Monster Manual three-hole supplements and later into the Monstrous Manual.

Just to offer some support here.  The only thing 2nd Edition is "guilty" of was renaming demons and devils.  The edition had a different strategy for bestiaries on launch than 1E and it took a few years to get Monstrous Compendiums with expanded lore out the door.  The Outer Planer one was in the middle of that release cycle.  There was absolutely nothing stopping your from using MM1, MM2 or FF while the transition was still happening.

Pretty much.

Ultimately each person is going to have to decide where they fall on what matters, what doesn't when it comes to the area of editing cutting (and/or re-releasing stuff). Nor do I see it as equivalent in terms of the two issues though some might.

I guess that is maybe my point #3: given the state of things does anyone really believe this will be the end of it? WOTC is likely just getting started with the "revisions". If people want to support that? Likewise their choice, but for me as I mentioned previously what WOTC does these days doesn't effect me, hasn't really for 20 years since 3rd edition came out. At that point I stopped buying their wares other than the reprints of the 1st Edition rule books a few years back and the 5th Edition PHB. So for me its really just a case of observing the spectacle.

Bottom line though is that they still caved in to the prior iteration of woke and moral busybodies. And while they did bring these things back eventually. They still got alot of flack for it and deservedly so. It does not matter if they "planned" it or not.

Quote from: Omega on January 03, 2022, 10:10:19 AM
Bottom line though is that they still caved in to the prior iteration of woke and moral busybodies. And while they did bring these things back eventually. They still got alot of flack for it and deservedly so. It does not matter if they "planned" it or not.

Yeah, for sure. All this talk of equivalence is weak. It shows that people don't understand what this is about: the integrity to stand by your work and what you believe in. Not one fucking word is what TSR should have changed in response to the religious nuts.

Quote from: Willmark on January 02, 2022, 08:24:52 AM

Quote from: Pat on December 28, 2021, 01:26:35 AM

Quote from: Willmark on December 27, 2021, 11:32:09 PM
Yes, and?

You were wrong, I corrected you. Demons and devils were excised from 2e, due to pressure from an outside hate group. Whether you still used your old books doesn't change that.

Not really, try again when you have something better. As I noted and below does far better than I as well. I posted two separate thoughts, in my commentary on this so lets point it out again.

1. Devils and Demons were renamed. If you don't like names, change them (point #1). EDIT and I'll take Jim Ward's stance over yours as to what they did at the time. Later on the were fully detailed with (oh the horror!) different names in Planescape and the various Monster Manual three-hole supplements and later into the Monstrous Manual.

2. My second point (the one you are commenting on) about 1st still stands unless your 1st Edition books suddenly stopped working when 2nd Edition came out. When the switch happened TSR even pointed out that all the 1st edition stuff still worked, I think it was around Dragon #142 or thereabouts.

Both can be true at the same time.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 28, 2021, 06:40:38 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 27, 2021, 10:28:40 PM
Just evil demons and devils.

Nope.

TSR Didn't want to "protect" it's customers from anything.

It was a purely marketing name change to do an end run around hysterical neurotic moms who watched too much daytime tv.

How do I know this?

Because The guy who did it, James Ward, said so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqY7WUWvg9Q

Start at: 33:15 in and educate yourself.

Around 35:15 "we still had devils, but because we called them a different name..." 35:30 "All the people criticizing us never bothered to read the game..."

^ Should put this particular line of discussion to rest but likely won't.

TSR put less piss in the wine than WotC. Not a shining moment no matter how you slice it.

I agree.

Point being people are treating this as the same thing. Let's say for a minute it is an ponder it a bit further like I did up thread: TSR shouldn't have renamed demons and devils. Ok, that's where they stopped and then corrected it.

Now onto my point #3. Does anyone honestly believe WOTC is done? Next edition, 6th, or Next or whatever the Hell they call it will likely make this look small in comparison.

Could very well be wrong in this but I like my chances of being proven right on this. Time will tell.

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 03, 2022, 10:42:22 AM
Yeah, for sure. All this talk of equivalence is weak. It shows that people don't understand what this is about: the integrity to stand by your work and what you believe in. Not one fucking word is what TSR should have changed in response to the religious nuts.

  But there is a difference. TSR performed sleight of hand for commercial reasons. WotC gives every indication of actually giving credence to the complaints.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 03, 2022, 02:57:19 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 03, 2022, 10:42:22 AM
Yeah, for sure. All this talk of equivalence is weak. It shows that people don't understand what this is about: the integrity to stand by your work and what you believe in. Not one fucking word is what TSR should have changed in response to the religious nuts.

  But there is a difference. TSR performed sleight of hand for commercial reasons. WotC gives every indication of actually giving credence to the complaints.

This difference of pandering for commercial reasons vs. true belief is only recognizable in hindsight.

It's easy to say it was an end run around the religious nuts because we know how it turned out. At the time when the names of devils and demons were changed, nobody knew what the outcome would be. The nuts could have come back asking for more.

He is right though. TSR was pressured into bending knee.
WOTC wants everyone else to bend knee to their agenda.

Quote from: Willmark on January 03, 2022, 12:32:00 PM
Next edition, 6th, or Next or whatever the Hell they call it

My money is on on 'Woke as Fuck Edition'.

Quote from: Omega on January 04, 2022, 07:22:49 AM
He is right though. TSR was pressured into bending knee.
WOTC wants everyone else to bend knee to their agenda.

I agree that's a difference. 

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 03, 2022, 04:09:19 PM
This difference of pandering for commercial reasons vs. true belief is only recognizable in hindsight.

It's easy to say it was an end run around the religious nuts because we know how it turned out. At the time when the names of devils and demons were changed, nobody knew what the outcome would be. The nuts could have come back asking for more.

Hm, I recall TSR stating specifically at the time that they were NOT true believers, and doing it only for appeasement. They spoke as if they and their own audience were NOT part of the mob.

Quite the opposite of the current climate -- and obvious to me at least in real time.


TSR: "The enemy is at the gate!"
vs.
WotC: "The people have spoken!"

Quote from: Jaeger on December 30, 2021, 05:23:44 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 29, 2021, 10:38:05 PM
This quote from you, more than any other, shows just how deeply out of touch you are with the comics field of today. You have no clue what happened with Scholastic. None. You appear to be entirely unaware of a HUGE shift the industry took which left all the other publishers scrambling to catch up. Nobody saw Raina Telgemeier coming, where her handful of graphic novels sold literally 25% of all Diamond distributed comics sold in 2019 and single handedly created a new age category for comics. 

The only question is what happens once you Google what you missed. This should be fascinating. My guess is it's going to take you several misses before you fully grok it.

And there he goes again.

Framing Scholastic like they are just another comics publisher competing for shelf space at the local Barnes and Noble.

Go to Barnes and Noble. And look. LOOK before you spout off like a fucking idiot. Because you sound like an idiot when you think Scholastic didn't massively expand at book stores just like Barnes and Noble starting in 2019. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENEND. You're speaking from total ignorance acting like you're an authority. But you know you're not. You know you have not been paying attention this last couple years - anyone who did knows what happened.

Go to a fucking bookstore and look at what is on the shelves. Talk to the people behind the counter and ask them about it.

You think it had to do with teachers? Holy fuck dude, that's completely putting the cart before the horse. That is not the direction it happened. Teachers were just as stunned as everyone else about what happened. As if teachers had not been pushing books prior to Reina and suddenly organized around one author and changed the entire comics industry overnight. What a laughably stupid scenario you concocted to try and explain facts you don't comprehend.

But you just made shit up whole cloth to try and explain what you don't want to learn about. Because it doesn't fit your world view and that would be hard.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 04, 2022, 09:59:46 AM
Go to Barnes and Noble. And look. LOOK before you spout off like a fucking idiot. Because you sound like an idiot when you think Scholastic didn't massively expand at book stores just like Barnes and Noble starting in 2019. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENEND. You're speaking from total ignorance acting like you're an authority. But you know you're not. You know you have not been paying attention this last couple years - anyone who did knows what happened.

Go to a fucking bookstore and look at what is on the shelves. Talk to the people behind the counter and ask them about it.

You think it had to do with teachers? Holy fuck dude, that's completely putting the cart before the horse. That is not the direction it happened. Teachers were just as stunned as everyone else about what happened. As if teachers had not been pushing books prior to Reina and suddenly organized around one author and changed the entire comics industry overnight. What a laughably stupid scenario you concocted to try and explain facts you don't comprehend.

But you just made shit up whole cloth to try and explain what you don't want to learn about. Because it doesn't fit your world view and that would be hard.

Annnd the double down...

Wherein we learn that Scholastics presence in Bookstores is and was, in no way helped by their continued and long standing presence in schools.

He totally cut out the part where I said:

QuoteTelgemeier is just another low talent ticket-taker who got the push because she ticks all the correct leftist boxes to be their mouthpiece to the tweens.

But thanks to Mistwell, we now know that rise of Raina Telgemeier, was completely natural, organic, and "Teachers were just as stunned as everyone else about what happened." when she hit the 'comics industry' completely out of left field...

It's so obvious in hindsight:

She was born and raised in San Fransisco, and went on to study illustration at New York's School of Visual Arts, graduating in 2002.

Being fresh out of school, she naturally ran with a crowd that got invited to art gallery parties, where she met an editor for Scholastic. She then was able to meet said editors boss at that years San Diego Comic-Con, where she was surprisingly invited to make a pitch, and got the job to do a graphic novel adaptation for four of Ann M. Martin's The Baby-Sitters Club series.

During that time period she was not unexpectedly invited to publish in anthologies by DC and Image Comics. Even getting a co-authored dip in the Marvel comic universe in 2009 with 'X-Men: Misfits'.

Because why not.

Her real breakout hit came with her 2010 autobiographical graphic novel: "Smile".

Which totally and completely caught everyone by surprise at how prolific and popular it became.

IMHO, It is the deft way she is able to capture the tween experience that put her over the top after years of struggle within the 'comic industry'...