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Author Topic: WotC Memory Hole  (Read 23410 times)

camazotz

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #210 on: December 28, 2021, 09:39:57 PM »
I suspect you're referring to the Polygon article entitled "Dungeons & Dragons kicks off 2021 with its first wheelchair-accessible dungeon" -- and that is a lie. Lying clickbait titles are extremely common in general. The article quotes designer Chris Perkins and one of the 17 authors Jennifer Kretchmer, but none of them explicitly say the adventures are wheelchair-accessible or that wheelchairs appear in it. The article just juxtaposes them with other discussion of wheelchairs like Sara Thompson's unofficial doc.

https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/12/22225381/dungeons-dragons-candlekeep-mysteries-wheelchair-accessible

In defense of Jennifer Kreshmer, her module actually is weelchair accessible when you read through it (there are ramps but no stairs, and an area that even induced levitation and such). No combat wheelchairs, though, as that was identified in some document online and never advertised as being in the actual Candlekeep book (they should have included it, though, it would have been nice to add; Paizo actually did this with PF2E, incidentally, with wheelchairs in the Grand Bazaar book). Nothing is wrong with any of this and Kreshmer's modules is one of my favorites from the book with some really cool stuff in it.

I also liked "The Canopic Being". It's a nice mini-module. However, while the sanctum is in Egyptian tomb style with ramps instead of stairs -- it's accessed only through a 20 foot shaft with a ladder, so it isn't "wheelchair accessible" by any normal definition. Heralding it as a breakthrough for wheelchair accessible dungeons is ridiculous, in my opinion.


Lever and winch! It's do-able...but yes, that part requires some extra equipment.

All that said, I do have to say that I never got the notion that the modules were literally meant to be "wheelchair accessible." I rather got the impression her quote was more about making her module something which a person with a disability wouldn't find to be discomfiting in some manner. On that, I have less of an opinion or insight, though.

Jaeger

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #211 on: December 28, 2021, 09:53:19 PM »
Just evil demons and devils.

Nope.

TSR Didn't want to "protect" it's customers from anything.

It was a purely marketing name change to do an end run around hysterical neurotic moms who watched too much daytime tv.

How do I know this?

Because The guy who did it, James Ward, said so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqY7WUWvg9Q

Start at: 33:15 in and educate yourself.

Around 35:15 "we still had devils, but because we called them a different name..." 35:30 "All the people criticizing us never bothered to read the game..."


It's still both cases of corporations caving to the demands of a fanatical religious cult (the Moral Majority, or Wokism today), who felt they should get to decide what others can and can't play, out of fear of financial consequences.

I don't see what the difference is, aside from the fact that the Wokism is a craftier cult than evangelical dominionists, and used entryism to put people in positions to completely compromise WoTC.

And honestly, I can't understand why you're working so hard to deny that Wokism is a fanatical religious cult acting on terrorist principles.  I'm glad Mistwell admits it!


Ward's intent with 2e was markedly different than that of WotC's today. Ward wasn't trying to "protect" his customers from content. His concern was not letting neurotic moms get his product taken off of the shelf for BS reasons.

Despite his intent, was it still capitulation... Yes; TSR absolutely could have just told the angry moms to kick rocks instead. And they didn't.

Where in the case of WotC D&D; I believe that the current Dev team for D&D are true believers, and have been all too happy to have made all the changes that they have so far. The twitterati are just giving them the flimsy excuses that they can wave in front of people to remake the game. I also believe that they would like to go much further than they have. In 20/20 hindsight it was evident D&D was going down this road the moment it was bought out by WotC given Tweet's writings on the development of 3e that he has done. Adkison, Tweet and Co. were all proto-wokesters from the beginning.


As to Denying that Wokism is a fanatical religious cult acting on terrorist principles. I have no idea what in my entire posting history gave you that idea.

Suffice it to say I categorically deny such a filthy allegation!

Calumny! Lies!
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jhkim

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #212 on: December 28, 2021, 11:29:52 PM »
It's still both cases of corporations caving to the demands of a fanatical religious cult (the Moral Majority, or Wokism today), who felt they should get to decide what others can and can't play, out of fear of financial consequences.

I don't see what the difference is, aside from the fact that the Wokism is a craftier cult than evangelical dominionists, and used entryism to put people in positions to completely compromise WoTC.

Ward's intent with 2e was markedly different than that of WotC's today. Ward wasn't trying to "protect" his customers from content. His concern was not letting neurotic moms get his product taken off of the shelf for BS reasons.

Ultimately, the question is here about what matters -- what are we looking at and judging?

For me, what matters is the game play. The game content in the books matters solely in how that affects game play at the table. I don't care about interviews or Polygon articles or social media posts. Regardless of what Jim Ward intended, what matters is what was published. Likewise, regardless of the Polygon article, what matters is the game content in the Candlekeep Mysteries book.

For others, it may matter what the intent is. Some people judge creators by the values they express in interviews and on social media, rather than based on the content that they create.

It depends what's important to you.

tenbones

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #213 on: December 29, 2021, 11:44:22 AM »

It depends what's important to you.

Look I have no dog in this fight - this is proceeding from Point A to Point Z right on schedule. At every point you are "ambivalent".

So where is your line on what is important?

I mean for me, it ended long before I realized I simply wasn't having fun with the system. The Woke shit came after I had already unmoored my ship from the WotC docks, and set sail on the quest to rediscover DnD.

Where is it for you? Do you just go along with whatever WotC churns out?

jhkim

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #214 on: December 29, 2021, 01:57:33 PM »
It depends what's important to you.

Look I have no dog in this fight - this is proceeding from Point A to Point Z right on schedule. At every point you are "ambivalent".

So where is your line on what is important?

I mean for me, it ended long before I realized I simply wasn't having fun with the system. The Woke shit came after I had already unmoored my ship from the WotC docks, and set sail on the quest to rediscover DnD.

Where is it for you? Do you just go along with whatever WotC churns out?

I've never gone along with what any company churns out. I'm always pretty selective about it. As for my opinion of 5E:

  • I liked the core books for 5E. I've mostly played non-D&D games, but among D&D editions, I'd say that 5E and 1E are my favorite core rules.
  • I tend to not like splat books for any game, but I thought Xanathar's Guide was OK. I passed on Volo's and didn't like Tasha's at all.
  • In settings, I liked the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. I never liked the Ravenloft setting overall because the demi-plane concept never worked for me, but I liked Van Richten's a little better than the original setting book for material that can be mined from them.
  • I've been unimpressed by most of the hardcover 5E adventures. They're a little better than 2E adventures - which were mostly terrible in my experience, but my favorite adventures are in 1E and 3E. When I've run my own games, I've mostly created my own adventures or adapted older modules - mostly 1E classics (like Ravenloft and Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan) but also a few 3E (Sunless Citadel) or Pathfinder (The Dragon's Demand).
  • However, I did like a bunch of the material in Candlekeep Mysteries that I picked up recently. I might end up adapting some of those for my current game.

Currently, I'm running a 5E game in a homebrew Incan-inspired fantasy setting that my son invented. I'm using just the core 5E books, though I might adapt some 1E adventures or possibly stuff from Candlekeep.

camazotz

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #215 on: December 29, 2021, 03:19:29 PM »
I took the time to go through the WotC Errata last night and see what sections were being deleted. What I realized was that WotC is removing what is largely "bad advice" content, stuff that is just kind of not-very-useful for RPG purposes, and will generally lead to an unpleasant experience for most players if the advice is followed, or if others at the table take it as gospel. In many ways it has nothing to do with wokism, and entirely to do with reframing how one provides role-playing advice to players in a manner that is more liberating than limiting.

But! They have clearly positioned this errata in a manner which is evoking a sense that they are either capitulating to wokism or trying to capitalize on it....or at least that's how this errata is being framed by all involved, including WotC. IMO they could have easily said nothing, simply revised the books, and rewritten the "role-playings an X" sections they intended to remove with better advice than was previously given. Had they done that, most of us likely would have found few or not issues with improved content, but then WotC wouldn't have gotten the attention it apparently craved.

RandyB

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #216 on: December 29, 2021, 03:26:58 PM »
I took the time to go through the WotC Errata last night and see what sections were being deleted. What I realized was that WotC is removing what is largely "bad advice" content, stuff that is just kind of not-very-useful for RPG purposes, and will generally lead to an unpleasant experience for most players if the advice is followed, or if others at the table take it as gospel. In many ways it has nothing to do with wokism, and entirely to do with reframing how one provides role-playing advice to players in a manner that is more liberating than limiting.

But! They have clearly positioned this errata in a manner which is evoking a sense that they are either capitulating to wokism or trying to capitalize on it....or at least that's how this errata is being framed by all involved, including WotC. IMO they could have easily said nothing, simply revised the books, and rewritten the "role-playings an X" sections they intended to remove with better advice than was previously given. Had they done that, most of us likely would have found few or not issues with improved content, but then WotC wouldn't have gotten the attention it apparently craved.

This is what is generally known as a "trial balloon". "How does this fly with the market?" Start relatively innocuous and see what the results are.

This is only the beginning of the ex post facto edits.

Eirikrautha

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #217 on: December 29, 2021, 08:40:49 PM »
I took the time to go through the WotC Errata last night and see what sections were being deleted. What I realized was that WotC is removing what is largely "bad advice" content, stuff that is just kind of not-very-useful for RPG purposes, and will generally lead to an unpleasant experience for most players if the advice is followed, or if others at the table take it as gospel. In many ways it has nothing to do with wokism, and entirely to do with reframing how one provides role-playing advice to players in a manner that is more liberating than limiting.

But! They have clearly positioned this errata in a manner which is evoking a sense that they are either capitulating to wokism or trying to capitalize on it....or at least that's how this errata is being framed by all involved, including WotC. IMO they could have easily said nothing, simply revised the books, and rewritten the "role-playings an X" sections they intended to remove with better advice than was previously given. Had they done that, most of us likely would have found few or not issues with improved content, but then WotC wouldn't have gotten the attention it apparently craved.

Dear Lord!  I don't think I have ever seen a more craven opinion on these boards (and we've got some serious Kool-aid drinkers on here).  "Bad advice"? In whose opinion?

An errata is to correct mistakes in the rules.  If you can show me where the information in these removed sections is incorrect or contradicts earlier material (which wouldn't matter,  since WotC has said that all of the old material isn't canon), then you might have an argument.  But the idea that they made the decision because it was bad advice (which is contrary to what WotC has said themselves... so we're supposed to discount what they tell us is the case and imagine a rationale that isn't stupid?) approaches the level of boot-licking.  I mean,  have some self-respect...

Mistwell

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #218 on: December 29, 2021, 10:38:05 PM »
Scholastic? The same Scholastics books that has been wired into the US school system for decades? The Scholastic company that is the leading provider of school libraries in the US? The Scholastic that offers financial perks to the schools and teachers who drives sales by hosting 'Scholastic books fairs' and both distributing and gathering the students order forms?

That Scholastic?

Stop trying to act like they are just some regular publisher. Stop trying to pretend that they are not beginning to get pushback from parents that have started to wake up.

This quote from you, more than any other, shows just how deeply out of touch you are with the comics field of today. You have no clue what happened with Scholastic. None. You appear to be entirely unaware of a HUGE shift the industry took which left all the other publishers scrambling to catch up. Nobody saw Raina Telgemeier coming, where her handful of graphic novels sold literally 25% of all Diamond distributed comics sold in 2019 and single handedly created a new age category for comics. 

The only question is what happens once you Google what you missed. This should be fascinating. My guess is it's going to take you several misses before you fully grok it.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2021, 10:47:33 PM by Mistwell »

Jaeger

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #219 on: December 30, 2021, 05:23:44 AM »
This quote from you, more than any other, shows just how deeply out of touch you are with the comics field of today. You have no clue what happened with Scholastic. None. You appear to be entirely unaware of a HUGE shift the industry took which left all the other publishers scrambling to catch up. Nobody saw Raina Telgemeier coming, where her handful of graphic novels sold literally 25% of all Diamond distributed comics sold in 2019 and single handedly created a new age category for comics. 

The only question is what happens once you Google what you missed. This should be fascinating. My guess is it's going to take you several misses before you fully grok it.

And there he goes again.

Framing Scholastic like they are just another comics publisher competing for shelf space at the local Barnes and Noble.

Marvel, DC, and Japanese Magna publishers would love to have teachers shilling for them in classrooms, and hold 'book fairs' to sell their products...

I didn't miss a thing.

I 'fully grok' that what Scholastic (a SJW converged company) is doing is Insidious and Evil.

Aided and abetted by their fellow traveler Teachers and school admins, they are using their established pipeline into the US school system to push their post-modern leftist cultural propaganda on impressionable young kids.

Putting their propaganda into the hands of kids knowing that their parents usually just write the checks; never bothering to look at what they are paying for...

It's Sickening.

Telgemeier is just another low talent ticket taker who got the push because she ticks all the correct leftist boxes to be their mouthpiece to the tweens.

The only one who doesn't 'grok it' is you:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/dd-is-selling-great-why-not-sell-it-now/msg1163445/#msg1163445

When Pundit rightly pointed out:

So NOT ONE is a traditional superhero comic. It's a mix of Manga and the books sold to library and pushed on parents through the 'scholastic press' scam. The latter mostly being SJW propaganda, none of which would sell under a system that wasn't explicitly set up to trick families into buying them as "educational".

You deny what Scholastic was in that thread. (Another where you got taken to school on.)

And you are just doubling down here with your newspeak talking points on a loop tape.

People are (too) slowly catching on to what Scholastic is doing, and that is why they are getting dumped by more and more schools.


I believe that I have posted here enough, and interreacted with enough of the regulars that they realize that I am often bombastic, hyperbolic, and a bit over the top / tongue in cheek in my responses.

It seems that everyone pretty much gets that, and takes them in that spirit.

But I want zero confusion on your part in this case. None of that is going on in this post.

Because:

Mistwell, you are a Disingenuous Liar.


You've been busted here too many times. Nobody here believes you.

And if not me, I sincerely hope somebody else jumps in to bust your newspeak hot-trash talking points every time you try to mike drop them in a thread.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 02:22:45 PM by Jaeger »
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RPGPundit

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #220 on: December 31, 2021, 12:14:17 AM »
The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.

But when I bought Candlekeep Mysteries, I found there were no illustrations or descriptions of wheelchairs anywhere in it, and the dungeons were no wheelchair accessible.

Look, either you're lying, or Wizards itself was lying about what was in it. I don't really care which it is.

I know I'm not lying. For anyone who wants to confirm for themselves - I have a physical copy, but I easily found a downloadable copy of Candlekeep Mysteries that you can confirm with.

I suspect you're referring to the Polygon article entitled "Dungeons & Dragons kicks off 2021 with its first wheelchair-accessible dungeon" -- and that is a lie. Lying clickbait titles are extremely common in general. The article quotes designer Chris Perkins and one of the 17 authors Jennifer Kretchmer, but none of them explicitly say the adventures are wheelchair-accessible or that wheelchairs appear in it. The article just juxtaposes them with other discussion of wheelchairs like Sara Thompson's unofficial doc.

https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/12/22225381/dungeons-dragons-candlekeep-mysteries-wheelchair-accessible

And yet Wizards never denied it, and I am pretty sure wizards' staff promoted the combat wheelchair and bragged about the accessible dungeon. But they were pretty clever: they bragged about it to the twiterati while they hid the fact from the general public. Of course, that has only led to an ever-increasing amount of more open SJW content in the following books. Each book has made it more impossible for ordinary gamers not to notice what's going on.
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Omega

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #221 on: December 31, 2021, 12:25:03 AM »
But when I bought Candlekeep Mysteries, I found there were no illustrations or descriptions of wheelchairs anywhere in it, and the dungeons were no wheelchair accessible.

Yeah I leafed through it and didnt spot a thing. Its manufactured outrage marketing. Bait the normal AND handicapped with claims guaranteed to piss them off and then rake in the free advertising.

At thius point whenever anyone makes some claim like this I keep as quiet as possible and wait to see whats really in the product rather than being an unpaid worker for these scum.

palaeomerus

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #222 on: December 31, 2021, 01:58:13 AM »
Iconic D&D moments

1.  OH MY GOD BULLYWUGS CAN JUMP ACROSS THE ROOM AND STAB YOU FOR DOUBLE WHEN THEY LAND ON YOU OMG!

2. Ha Ha these Kobolds are easier to kill than gobliiiiiiiiiiiiins (trap door onto poisoned spikes that makes boulders fall from above down the trap door and then when the boulders hit the spiked pit bursts into flame)

3. What do you mean I'm turning into a pile of worms? What do you mean the only way to save me is to kill me and then resurrect me and that's expensive so just roll up a new character?

4. We won! Here's the eye as I promised! Now help me cut my hand off!

5. I climb down the stone demon's mouth to see what's down there.

6. OMG! I have a ray gun! There are ray guns in this dungeon!

7. Quivering palm attempt failed. Vorpal attempt failed. Oil flask and torch failed. Color spray failed, HA HA. Oh, color spray, that was funny.  So...Iuz has melted the party.

8. What do you mean the whole southern end of the chamber is a black pudding?

9. AAAGGH1 Get this treasure chest off of me! help!

10. So THAT's why they call them rust monsters.
Emery

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #223 on: January 02, 2022, 08:24:52 AM »
Yes, and?
You were wrong, I corrected you. Demons and devils were excised from 2e, due to pressure from an outside hate group. Whether you still used your old books doesn't change that.
Not really, try again when you have something better. As I noted and below does far better than I as well. I posted two separate thoughts, in my commentary on this so lets point it out again.

1. Devils and Demons were renamed. If you don't like names, change them (point #1). EDIT and I'll take Jim Ward's stance over yours as to what they did at the time. Later on the were fully detailed with (oh the horror!) different names in Planescape and the various Monster Manual three-hole supplements and later into the Monstrous Manual.

2. My second point (the one you are commenting on) about 1st still stands unless your 1st Edition books suddenly stopped working when 2nd Edition came out. When the switch happened TSR even pointed out that all the 1st edition stuff still worked, I think it was around Dragon #142 or thereabouts.

Both can be true at the same time.

Just evil demons and devils.

Nope.

TSR Didn't want to "protect" it's customers from anything.

It was a purely marketing name change to do an end run around hysterical neurotic moms who watched too much daytime tv.

How do I know this?

Because The guy who did it, James Ward, said so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqY7WUWvg9Q

Start at: 33:15 in and educate yourself.

Around 35:15 "we still had devils, but because we called them a different name..." 35:30 "All the people criticizing us never bothered to read the game..."
^ Should put this particular line of discussion to rest but likely won't.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2022, 09:09:14 AM by Willmark »

Palleon

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #224 on: January 02, 2022, 09:19:35 AM »
Yes, and?
You were wrong, I corrected you. Demons and devils were excised from 2e, due to pressure from an outside hate group. Whether you still used your old books doesn't change that.
Not really, try again when you have something better. As I noted and below does far better than I as well. I posted two separate thoughts, in my commentary on this so lets point it out again.

1. Devils and Demons were renamed. If you don't like names, change them (point #1). EDIT and I'll take Jim Ward's stance over yours as to what they did at the time. Later on the were fully detailed with (oh the horror!) different names in Planescape and the various Monster Manual three-hole supplements and later into the Monstrous Manual.

Just to offer some support here.  The only thing 2nd Edition is "guilty" of was renaming demons and devils.  The edition had a different strategy for bestiaries on launch than 1E and it took a few years to get Monstrous Compendiums with expanded lore out the door.  The Outer Planer one was in the middle of that release cycle.  There was absolutely nothing stopping your from using MM1, MM2 or FF while the transition was still happening.