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Author Topic: WotC Memory Hole  (Read 23406 times)

Omega

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #195 on: December 28, 2021, 02:31:21 AM »
If this was in the cards, it would have happened already. Hasbro wants to profit from growing D&D The Lifestyle Brand. The game is but one aspect of that, and a troublesome aspect because it's played by deplorables.

Except Hasbro has done just short of nothing involving "lifestyle brands" with D&D. Thats all been second and third party stuff Hasbro has allowed or licensed out. And even that has been borderline fan crafts in some cases. And the rest is just common side sales thats been around for ages. Mugs, plushes, etc.

WOTC talked big about making D&D into a lifestyle brand, but so far has just talked big and done little.

That might change later but it looks like for now at least they are just letting others do their thing. Probably for a cut or license.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 02:38:11 AM by Omega »

S'mon

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #196 on: December 28, 2021, 03:12:38 AM »
Marvel and DC comics print divisions have made all the moves you guys outline here, and they are still in the gutter. Losing market share to un-woke Magna hand over fist. Still.

Dude, I have bad news for you. Manga is just as woke as Marvel and DC. Getting the same kinds of complaints from some fans (including fans in Japan) about it being woke as Marvel and DC are getting from some fans in America. Demon Slayer appears to be the most popular Manga ever...and has plenty of LGBTQ+ characters in it. If it were the X-Men you'd be freaking out over it.


I was going to post to try to correct this glaring misapprehension re Japanese culture, but then I saw it was Mistwell so I decided it's probably deliberate deceit not ignorance.  ;D

palaeomerus

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #197 on: December 28, 2021, 03:48:05 AM »
https://dnd.wizards.com/nerds

Licensing it out for merch is pretty much what "lifestyle brand" means. You turn into a logo to put on things people buy. Yeah there is a lot of yadda yadda about how the brand stands for values and such of a certain sort of person who does and likes certain things but the concrete bones holding all that balderdash up is that they will put a logo on stylized merch and tell their supposed target audience who identify with the logo in some way about the mech so they'll buy it to identify themselves as invested in the lifestyle.
Emery

jhkim

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #198 on: December 28, 2021, 04:08:23 AM »
My point is this as it has gotten turned around so many times: the 1984 style Big Brother of WOTC deciding to capitulate to the wokescolds isn't the same as the great Satan panic of the late 1980s, at least IMO. If people want to see it that way its fine, I'm not going to stop them.

And as a separate thought sure lets go with TSR caved and yanked them and they are equivalent. Is anyone buying for a minute that WOTC is done? No way, this is ongoing and the next moves will likely make this seem small in comparison.

The main thing that I'd like to agree on is the factual understanding of what these two changes were. The changes to Volo's are edits to existing digital copies of the current edition, which is worse IMO than changes in a new edition. However, the material changed has negligible effect on the game. The edits do not substantially change anything about the monsters in question (beholder, fire giant, gnoll, kobold, orc, yuan-ti). Their main description and all background remains unchanged.

For example, I just had Yuan-ti as adversaries in my last D&D game a few weeks ago. Looking over, I can see nothing in the changes that would have had any effect, even if I had Volo's and decided to follow the book changes exactly as written.

But from people's descriptions here of the edits, I wouldn't have gotten that impression at all. It reminds me of Pundit's description of how Sara Thompson's combat wheelchair was made official:

If Thompson got her original combat wheelchair added to official D&D, then yes, I would be wrong. Can you give a link or reference that the original combat wheelchair was added to official D&D?

The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.

But when I bought Candlekeep Mysteries, I found there were no illustrations or descriptions of wheelchairs anywhere in it, and the dungeons were no wheelchair accessible.

palaeomerus

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #199 on: December 28, 2021, 04:23:28 AM »
Ah.

Emery

rytrasmi

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #200 on: December 28, 2021, 10:50:39 AM »
If this was in the cards, it would have happened already. Hasbro wants to profit from growing D&D The Lifestyle Brand. The game is but one aspect of that, and a troublesome aspect because it's played by deplorables.

Except Hasbro has done just short of nothing involving "lifestyle brands" with D&D. Thats all been second and third party stuff Hasbro has allowed or licensed out. And even that has been borderline fan crafts in some cases. And the rest is just common side sales thats been around for ages. Mugs, plushes, etc.

WOTC talked big about making D&D into a lifestyle brand, but so far has just talked big and done little.

That might change later but it looks like for now at least they are just letting others do their thing. Probably for a cut or license.
So, Hasbro has done nothing except license others? Yes, that's exactly how it's done. WotC doesn't need to open a candy factory and hire oompa loompas to make D&D branded nerds. They don't need to grow cotton to make D&D shirts either.

https://dnd.wizards.com/products/merchandise

Have a look at the links on the page above and tell me what products they're missing to qualify as a lifestyle brand.

And another thing (shakes fist at cloud), don't for a second think that D&D in Stranger Things and other shows was serendipitous. It is all product placement.



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Ghostmaker

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #201 on: December 28, 2021, 11:15:43 AM »
Okay.

Keep talking about Fifth edition "D&D". Because you can't stop. Keep advertising the Beast.

I've been in marketing for nearly 30 years.

Keep talking about 5e and please imagine it disappears.

This forum founded by RPGPundit. When they kicked him out of Big Purple.

But Pundit carried WotC here to this site. Like a carrier of a deadly virus to the RPG hobby. RPGPundit thinks the "Communist/Marxist Left" is the problem but the followers of Marx & Lenin are dead and gone. These now are the children of Makhail Bakunin. They are ANARCHISTS. They mean to destroy the entire system. I know because I am an Anarchist. Your Constitution and Bill of Rights mean nothing to those seeking a greater definition of "PERSON".

Do you really think your Conservative ideals are strong enough comfort to protect you? Conservatism embraces the warm ground of Patriotism. Anarchists despise Patriotism. You cling to ancient shadows for defense from an enemy who uses light only to destroy everything before it. You think you have the upper hand when the anarchistic proponents of Adolph Hitler continue today to disintegrate any notion of government. And government defends the Bill or Rights and the Constitution.

What world will you find yourself in when the "freedoms" you so desperately defend have no meaning? Imagine a world where corporations decide what being human is.

Ready?

To fight this foe you need to make your morals greater than the degenerative philosophical ideals of the radial Left. You will have to stand and fight TALLER.
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tenbones

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #202 on: December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM »
WOTC talked big about making D&D into a lifestyle brand, but so far has just talked big and done little.

I'm not so sure about that.

If the "Lifestyle" means making low wages, being dependent on others for approval and purity, having "very safe" games that do offend their everchanging sensibilities (which of course means constantly scouring and memory-holing the past), and using social media as the primary mode of "discourse" where they can sermonize (invariably whining and being outraged at "things")... where they meta-LARP and backslap each other for being brave slacktivists against those that they perceive as enemies of their bubble they've crafted...

Perhaps they were more successful than you give them credit for?

You problem (and mine) was that as sane people, we never considered any of the above a "lifestyle".

Jaeger

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #203 on: December 28, 2021, 06:40:38 PM »
Just evil demons and devils.

Nope.

TSR Didn't want to "protect" it's customers from anything.

It was a purely marketing name change to do an end run around hysterical neurotic moms who watched too much daytime tv.

How do I know this?

Because The guy who did it, James Ward, said so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqY7WUWvg9Q

Start at: 33:15 in and educate yourself.

Around 35:15 "we still had devils, but because we called them a different name..." 35:30 "All the people criticizing us never bothered to read the game..."


Tell me you don't read modern Manga without telling me you don't read modern Manga.

Dude, I have bad news for you. Manga is just as woke as Marvel and DC. Getting the same kinds of complaints from some fans (including fans in Japan) about it being woke as Marvel and DC are getting from some fans in America. Demon Slayer appears to be the most popular Manga ever...and has plenty of LGBTQ+ characters in it. If it were the X-Men you'd be freaking out over it.

LOL Nice try.

Magna is not as woke as marvel and DC otherwise they would be in a similar situation.

Is the woke making inclusions into Magna? Yes. Thanks for highlighting that.

Those fans pointing out the woke entryism should be listened to lest magna follow the path of marvel and DC.

You were obviously one of those guys when Dr. who was at its rating peak that told anyone who said that the wokeness in the show would prove to be its downfall that they were delusional...


Just like Scholastic kicking butt right now, but also being just as woke as Marvel and DC, doesn't fit the narrative so magically is never mentioned by people who bash Marvel and DC.

Scholastic? The same Scholastics books that has been wired into the US school system for decades? The Scholastic company that is the leading provider of school libraries in the US? The Scholastic that offers financial perks to the schools and teachers who drives sales by hosting 'Scholastic books fairs' and both distributing and gathering the students order forms?

That Scholastic?

Stop trying to act like they are just some regular publisher. Stop trying to pretend that they are not beginning to get pushback from parents that have started to wake up.


It's just highly inconvenient for the "get woke go broke" narrative to admit this.

It's impossible for you to admit that it is not a narrative. Even when it was proven to you in past threads here. Your cognitive dissonance won't allow it.

You just move the goalpost and repeat your talking points.

You are not even trying to debate "get woke go broke" about Marvel, DC,  or Dr. who anymore. That was taken care of in past threads. Where you were taken to school each time. I am not above getting the links to those threads to remind you. Please let me know if you need them.

All you have done is grabbed the next example you could find that is not as far along in their journey towards potential self-destruction and gone: "See! See! that has woke in it, and it hasn't fallen to marvel/DC Levels yet! See!"

"It can't be true it just can't!"

Please.

Come back when you have better material.
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RPGPundit

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #204 on: December 28, 2021, 07:04:53 PM »


The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.

But when I bought Candlekeep Mysteries, I found there were no illustrations or descriptions of wheelchairs anywhere in it, and the dungeons were no wheelchair accessible.

Look, either you're lying, or Wizards itself was lying about what was in it. I don't really care which it is.
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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #205 on: December 28, 2021, 07:08:03 PM »
Just evil demons and devils.

Nope.

TSR Didn't want to "protect" it's customers from anything.

It was a purely marketing name change to do an end run around hysterical neurotic moms who watched too much daytime tv.

How do I know this?

Because The guy who did it, James Ward, said so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqY7WUWvg9Q

Start at: 33:15 in and educate yourself.

Around 35:15 "we still had devils, but because we called them a different name..." 35:30 "All the people criticizing us never bothered to read the game..."


It's still both cases of corporations caving to the demands of a fanatical religious cult (the Moral Majority, or Wokism today), who felt they should get to decide what others can and can't play, out of fear of financial consequences.

I don't see what the difference is, aside from the fact that the Wokism is a craftier cult than evangelical dominionists, and used entryism to put people in positions to completely compromise WoTC.

And honestly, I can't understand why you're working so hard to deny that Wokism is a fanatical religious cult acting on terrorist principles.  I'm glad Mistwell admits it!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 07:10:06 PM by RPGPundit »
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jhkim

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #206 on: December 28, 2021, 08:25:41 PM »
The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.

But when I bought Candlekeep Mysteries, I found there were no illustrations or descriptions of wheelchairs anywhere in it, and the dungeons were no wheelchair accessible.

Look, either you're lying, or Wizards itself was lying about what was in it. I don't really care which it is.

I know I'm not lying. For anyone who wants to confirm for themselves - I have a physical copy, but I easily found a downloadable copy of Candlekeep Mysteries that you can confirm with.

I suspect you're referring to the Polygon article entitled "Dungeons & Dragons kicks off 2021 with its first wheelchair-accessible dungeon" -- and that is a lie. Lying clickbait titles are extremely common in general. The article quotes designer Chris Perkins and one of the 17 authors Jennifer Kretchmer, but none of them explicitly say the adventures are wheelchair-accessible or that wheelchairs appear in it. The article just juxtaposes them with other discussion of wheelchairs like Sara Thompson's unofficial doc.

https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/12/22225381/dungeons-dragons-candlekeep-mysteries-wheelchair-accessible

camazotz

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #207 on: December 28, 2021, 08:29:47 PM »
To take a specific hypothetical case (c): suppose that in a future D&D 6th edition, the dwarf race were considered offensive to real-life Little People, and so were renamed as the Moradain, cut out of the core rules, and put in a supplemental book of expanded races like Tabaxi and Goliaths.
You keep going back to this. Demons and Devils were not removed from 2e AD&D. They are right there in the Monstrous Manual.
The Monstrous Manual wasn't one of the original core books, when 2e was first released. It's a much later book. The original bestiary of 2nd edition was the Monstrous Compendium, the one with a binder and 3-hole punched pages. And there were no demons or devils inside, anywhere. They were completely excised, out of fear of Patricia Pulling. They didn't reappear until the release of the Outer Planes Compendium... except that didn't have demons or devils, either. Yes, it had the monsters formerly known as demons and devils, but they were given new garbage fantasy apostrophe gobblegook names. Even the later Monstrous Manual hardback used the bowdlerized names, and only had a tiny handful of nee-demons and nee-devils.
Yes, and?

As I noted previously the ones in the 1st edition MM and MM2 worked just fine in the transition to 2e and beyond. In fact that was one of teh points bandied about in Dragon that it all still works. The idea was with the binders to keep going with stuff and cycle through everything as noted and low and behold they are in my binders too. I guess I'm one of those folks that doesn't see much daylight between the two editions, they are fairly close.

My point is this as it has gotten turned around so many times: the 1984 style Big Brother of WOTC deciding to capitulate to the wokescolds isn't the same as the great Satan panic of the late 1980s, at least IMO. If people want to see it that way its fine, I'm not going to stop them.

And as a separate thought sure lets go with TSR caved and yanked them and they are equivalent. Is anyone buying for a minute that WOTC is done? No way, this is ongoing and the next moves will likely make this seem small in comparison.

For me its really just watching from afar, nothing WOTC has produced since the start of 3e has been useful or needed really for the type of game I like.

You are correct: what's happening today is not like the old days of the moral majority panic about satanism. For it to be comparable, the fearful Christian pastors and housewives would have to be actually playing D&D and explaining to the rest of us that we need to remove all of the language and content derived from perceived paganism or satanic origins in order to align the game well with proper Christian values. But...luckily....the moral majority was never more than about the most basic sort of panic, and settled for just confiscating or burning books from the kids caught in these sorts of families. Moreover, for far more kids it wasn't as much of an issue, as they came from families with more common sense.

The problem today, of course, is that it's self-censorship, social chastisement and aggrandized attacks against a different range of topics within D&D. Now, instead of Orcus being a cypher for the Devil teaching you evil spells, it's orcs being a cypher for PoC teaching you to be racist. Even if you aren't being indoctrinated into racist beliefs it is criticized for even putting the thought in to your head; racist actions against a fiction are equivalent, in thought, to racist action and reality and therefore dangerous. This line of reasoning is much, much more dangerous to society at large, and the crowd which has embraced this mode of thought does not care, because in the end their unassailable doctrine is no less debatable that the old days of the Christian moral panic.

WotC, of course, needs to survive in this environment and so it is trying to adapt. It's not their fault; we've gone very badly wrong somewhere in our social discourse over the last two decades and I am just a rando on the internet with no idea of how to right this ship.

camazotz

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #208 on: December 28, 2021, 08:47:22 PM »
The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.

But when I bought Candlekeep Mysteries, I found there were no illustrations or descriptions of wheelchairs anywhere in it, and the dungeons were no wheelchair accessible.

Look, either you're lying, or Wizards itself was lying about what was in it. I don't really care which it is.

I know I'm not lying. For anyone who wants to confirm for themselves - I have a physical copy, but I easily found a downloadable copy of Candlekeep Mysteries that you can confirm with.

I suspect you're referring to the Polygon article entitled "Dungeons & Dragons kicks off 2021 with its first wheelchair-accessible dungeon" -- and that is a lie. Lying clickbait titles are extremely common in general. The article quotes designer Chris Perkins and one of the 17 authors Jennifer Kretchmer, but none of them explicitly say the adventures are wheelchair-accessible or that wheelchairs appear in it. The article just juxtaposes them with other discussion of wheelchairs like Sara Thompson's unofficial doc.

https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/12/22225381/dungeons-dragons-candlekeep-mysteries-wheelchair-accessible

In defense of Jennifer Kreshmer, her module actually is weelchair accessible when you read through it (there are ramps but no stairs, and an area that even induced levitation and such). No combat wheelchairs, though, as that was identified in some document online and never advertised as being in the actual Candlekeep book (they should have included it, though, it would have been nice to add; Paizo actually did this with PF2E, incidentally, with wheelchairs in the Grand Bazaar book). Nothing is wrong with any of this and Kreshmer's modules is one of my favorites from the book with some really cool stuff in it.



jhkim

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Re: WotC Memory Hole
« Reply #209 on: December 28, 2021, 09:28:26 PM »
I suspect you're referring to the Polygon article entitled "Dungeons & Dragons kicks off 2021 with its first wheelchair-accessible dungeon" -- and that is a lie. Lying clickbait titles are extremely common in general. The article quotes designer Chris Perkins and one of the 17 authors Jennifer Kretchmer, but none of them explicitly say the adventures are wheelchair-accessible or that wheelchairs appear in it. The article just juxtaposes them with other discussion of wheelchairs like Sara Thompson's unofficial doc.

https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/12/22225381/dungeons-dragons-candlekeep-mysteries-wheelchair-accessible

In defense of Jennifer Kreshmer, her module actually is weelchair accessible when you read through it (there are ramps but no stairs, and an area that even induced levitation and such). No combat wheelchairs, though, as that was identified in some document online and never advertised as being in the actual Candlekeep book (they should have included it, though, it would have been nice to add; Paizo actually did this with PF2E, incidentally, with wheelchairs in the Grand Bazaar book). Nothing is wrong with any of this and Kreshmer's modules is one of my favorites from the book with some really cool stuff in it.

I also liked "The Canopic Being". It's a nice mini-module. However, while the sanctum is in Egyptian tomb style with ramps instead of stairs -- it's accessed only through a 20 foot shaft with a ladder, so it isn't "wheelchair accessible" by any normal definition. Heralding it as a breakthrough for wheelchair accessible dungeons is ridiculous, in my opinion.