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Author Topic: WotC has stated what is Canon  (Read 2250 times)

Jam The MF

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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2021, 11:16:01 PM »
WOTC just declared that only official releases for D&D 5E, are considered canon now.

I guess that makes sense, since they don't really support their past editions.  We all knew 4E wouldn't be considered canon.  They took a massive dump on 4E, years ago.
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sevenlabors

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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2021, 12:46:28 AM »
As much as I'm also concerned that the vocal, progressive corner of the TTRP community is throwing the baby out with the bathwater (and missing the larger mythic and folklore point) in much of their focus on racism in DnD, etc.... this one doesn't seem to be some moment for losing out minds at WOTC.

Sure, there's a lot of narrative nooks and crannies in all the novels, video games, merch, etc. that's piled up over the years.

I'd want to say "who cares?" but there's a lot of grognards and progressive SJW types together who are getting worked up over this.

The game and the campaign setting is what you express at your table.

WOTC creative can only keep their hands full with what they are doing with 5E and its settings right now. I don't fault them, and it's probably pretty smart from a design and storytelling governance standpoint, even if there's some whatabouts that come along with it.

palaeomerus

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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2021, 12:49:29 AM »
WOTC just declared that only official releases for D&D 5E, are considered canon now.

I guess that makes sense, since they don't really support their past editions.  We all knew 4E wouldn't be considered canon.  They took a massive dump on 4E, years ago.

So is Mystra 1 still alive? Was there a spell plague? Is Cyric imprisoned and mad or is he even a God? Is Kelemvor a god? Is Mulhorand on Aber or Toril now? Is Baalzebul a fly head or a poopoo slug? What's Ygwilv & Iuz up to? How about the Queen of Chaos and Mishka the Wolf Spider? Kyuss and Kass? Is Bane dead or returned or...? Did Orcus ever die and become Tenebrous and then die again and then get resurrected?

If we don't care about all that foundational stuff anymore then why should we care about the new stuff being shat out now? What's the point? It's a house of cards. It has the permanence of Kleenex. How do you monetize nostalgia in permanent year zero?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 12:55:20 AM by palaeomerus »
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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2021, 01:13:44 AM »
So is Mystra 1 still alive? Was there a spell plague? Is Cyric imprisoned and mad or is he even a God? Is Kelemvor a god? Is Mulhorand on Aber or Toril now? Is Baalzebul a fly head or a poopoo slug? What's Ygwilv & Iuz up to? How about the Queen of Chaos and Mishka the Wolf Spider? Kyuss and Kass? Is Bane dead or returned or...? Did Orcus ever die and become Tenebrous and then die again and then get resurrected?

If we don't care about all that foundational stuff anymore then why should we care about the new stuff being shat out now? What's the point? It's a house of cards. It has the permanence of Kleenex. How do you monetize nostalgia in permanent year zero?
I see the end of all that shitty metaplot as a virtue.

Reckall

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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2021, 02:31:41 AM »
WOTC just declared that only official releases for D&D 5E, are considered canon now.

A bright idea that worked so well for Star Wars...  ::)

Quote
I guess that makes sense, since they don't really support their past editions.  We all knew 4E wouldn't be considered canon.  They took a massive dump on 4E, years ago.

That was just holy and righteous. The Forgotten Realms 3E vs. 4E was like Tolkien vs. Forty Shades of Grey.
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Jaeger

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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2021, 03:55:21 PM »
The more I think about this the more I realize WotC is distancing itself from past game products. In a way I think they're trying to erase history.....without erasing history, if that makes sense.

Essentially, yes.

IMHO this is not about "cannon". Crawford in true SJW fashion, is using a word that means one thing to mean something else.

What they are really talking about is the D&D Lore. (Past modules and settings). And their willingness to mine them for ideas and then completely re-write them to bring them “in line with modern sensibilities”.

WOTC is making a bet.

That any fan over 30 that actually liked past D&D/TSR material the way it was; does not matter to the future of WOTC D&D.

Based on the sales of NuRavenloft, and their own internal surveys showing that the pre 3e D&D players are a minority of their current customer base, they are essentially signaling that nothing done in the past is sacrosanct, and that they will re-write past D&D Lore as needed to bring it in like with their current year woke political worldview.

Yes, yes, we all know “In your home game…”.

But the fact is that a lot of long time players got invested in the D&D IP. And WOTC has basically just said: "Fuck off losers. We’re all about the new cool kids! "

IMHO the timing of this might have to do with the fact that new DragonLance books are coming out by Hickman and Weiss, and WOTC may release a DragonLance setting book that retcons huge swaths of H&W established Lore.

We'll see how this plays out...
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Thorn Drumheller

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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2021, 04:35:17 PM »
The more I think about this the more I realize WotC is distancing itself from past game products. In a way I think they're trying to erase history.....without erasing history, if that makes sense.

Essentially, yes.

IMHO this is not about "cannon". Crawford in true SJW fashion, is using a word that means one thing to mean something else.

What they are really talking about is the D&D Lore. (Past modules and settings). And their willingness to mine them for ideas and then completely re-write them to bring them “in line with modern sensibilities”.

WOTC is making a bet.

That any fan over 30 that actually liked past D&D/TSR material the way it was; does not matter to the future of WOTC D&D.

Based on the sales of NuRavenloft, and their own internal surveys showing that the pre 3e D&D players are a minority of their current customer base, they are essentially signaling that nothing done in the past is sacrosanct, and that they will re-write past D&D Lore as needed to bring it in like with their current year woke political worldview.

Yes, yes, we all know “In your home game…”.

But the fact is that a lot of long time players got invested in the D&D IP. And WOTC has basically just said: "Fuck off losers. We’re all about the new cool kids! "

IMHO the timing of this might have to do with the fact that new DragonLance books are coming out by Hickman and Weiss, and WOTC may release a DragonLance setting book that retcons huge swaths of H&W established Lore.

We'll see how this plays out...

Yeah, I believe you're correct. That makes a lot of sense.
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GriswaldTerrastone

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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2021, 04:42:27 PM »
Won't matter, Wizards of the Coast.

All right, you now say Orcs and Drow being evil is racist. You've made your move, pat yourselves on the back.

But the whole point of SJWs and leftism is to complain about something. "Year Zero" won't matter. Know why?

The next move by the left is to ask why it took you so long to become "woke." Prepare to give in to yet another set of demands. We did not get here overnight.



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jhkim

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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2021, 05:14:25 PM »
WOTC is making a bet.

That any fan over 30 that actually liked past D&D/TSR material the way it was; does not matter to the future of WOTC D&D.

I'm 51, and I've generally always liked D&D material that is non-setting-specific and non-canonical. I feel that's how most material has always been published - as toolkits rather than as a fixed canon. I suspect that the vast majority of older D&D players are the same - they play using whatever they like and skip the rest, rather than trying to stick to any canon.

I know that there has been canon about particular settings like Greyhawk, Faerun, and Dragonlance - but I don't know any D&D players who have cared at all about what is canon or not. If anyone here does, I'd be curious about how whether something is canon or not drives your gaming and/or purchases.

Shasarak

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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2021, 05:48:29 PM »
I know that there has been canon about particular settings like Greyhawk, Faerun, and Dragonlance - but I don't know any D&D players who have cared at all about what is canon or not. If anyone here does, I'd be curious about how whether something is canon or not drives your gaming and/or purchases.

Personally I stopped buying Forgotten Realms stuff in 2008.

At some point you have to ask yourself, if this product is not even awesome enough for its own creator to see it as canon then why the fuck would I?
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jhkim

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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2021, 06:30:18 PM »
Personally I stopped buying Forgotten Realms stuff in 2008.

At some point you have to ask yourself, if this product is not even awesome enough for its own creator to see it as canon then why the fuck would I?

Can you explain more about that? I've been playing since the 1970s, but the first time I used Forgotten Realms was in 2013. Prior to that, I had used mostly homebrew settings - with some Greyhawk.

Jaeger

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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2021, 06:40:31 PM »
Personally I stopped buying Forgotten Realms stuff in 2008.

At some point you have to ask yourself, if this product is not even awesome enough for its own creator to see it as canon then why the fuck would I?
Can you explain more about that? I've been playing since the 1970s, but the first time I used Forgotten Realms was in 2013. Prior to that, I had used mostly homebrew settings - with some Greyhawk.

I believe it to be referencing the fact that Ed Greenwood has always slavishly endorsed everything WOTC has done to the setting.

It seems that no matter which direction FR is taken, Ed pops up to give his 'creator seal of approval' in some form or another.
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TJS

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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2021, 06:41:57 PM »
Why does anyone care?

I thought everyone around here was already abandoning WotC for the OSR.

And mining the history of D&D for inspiration but not being beholden to it is exactly what the OSR does.

Shasarak

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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2021, 06:43:17 PM »
Personally I stopped buying Forgotten Realms stuff in 2008.

At some point you have to ask yourself, if this product is not even awesome enough for its own creator to see it as canon then why the fuck would I?

Can you explain more about that? I've been playing since the 1970s, but the first time I used Forgotten Realms was in 2013. Prior to that, I had used mostly homebrew settings - with some Greyhawk.

WotC killed Forgotten Realms when they jumped 100 years forward in time and para dropped in Trans-Forgotten Realms on top of everything.
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Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: WotC has stated what is Canon
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2021, 06:52:08 PM »
I don't care about the canonicity in and of itself ... but there are usually two negative consequences to this kind of declaration:

1. So far, whenever a corporation has gone out of their way to declare old stuff non-canon, the replacement material has been decidedly unimpressive.

2. While the Pop Cultists may claim "the old material's still there for you," if you express a preference for it over the new stuff in public, you will be bullied and calumniated until you bow down and offer your ceremonial pinch of incense to the idols of the New Age.

I agree with both these observations.

In itself I don't object to the idea of saying, "We're not going to maintain a bunch of settings at a level where you have to have read boatloads of previous material going back over fifty years to properly understand them," and while I'm not averse to metaplots, I think they can definitely reach a point of being too voluminous and overwhelming to keep up with.

(I have never really been able to get into comics for precisely the same reason -- I could never cope with feeling like I was missing out on a critical backstory when virtually every other page in any comic book I picked up had an asterisk noting, "See Issue 45, Oct '82", or whatever. One of the things I loved about the Marvel Cinematic Universe was that it was deliberately constructed for people like me who didn't have more than a very basic knowledge of Marvel Comics.)

But resetting to a common point in a game setting's history is one thing; resetting the core assumptions from which all future game material will be developed is something else, especially if it renders existing homebrew material more difficult to translate.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 06:53:49 PM by Stephen Tannhauser »
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