Clark Peterson, Necromancer Games, in the same thread. I understand he'll have more info on this but it looks like he's not sure yet either. Not sure he'll be able to distribute a free PDF of 3.5e stat blocks for his planned 4e. He'll try because he promised fans he would as best he could but isn't sure he'll be able to do it. Or even let his authors put it out as "fan" material (which he likely could legally stop, so he might be obliged under the GSL to enforce his rights).

EDIT: Outside that he doesn't really care much and seems to think RPG customers shouldn't get their snot in a knot either? Hrmm. Fat chance of that methinks.  He thinks it's a surprising windfall that the GSL allows 3rd party publishers access to 4e at all.

The various threads elsewhere on this are hilarious (as at enworld.) And it's only gonna get better the closer we get to doomsday. Even Clark (orcus) was down in the dumps by the end of that thread.

GSL hysteria has the potential to be globalwarming + AIDS + abortion + mohammed cartoons. Get yer popcorn ready.

My two cents: with the GSL being exclusionary and potentially revocable, publishers who forgo the OGL and "upgrade" to the GSL better ask WotC for a complementary lubejob upfront.

Quote from: James J SkachBrilliant, Warthur. Well played, sir.

I don't think they'd be too worried, however. Because the one thing the filed down version, and any material based on it, won't be able to do is say "compatible with 4e D&D" or whatever the trademark restrictions apply. WotC will rely on Branding to roll over any kind of competition that might arise. Why play a cheap knock off when you can play the real thing? At worst they will lose a sale, at best, they will gain a player that will one day become a customer of other products.

You see, that's the thing. From Wizards' point of view, the important thing is the trademark, not the system itself. On the other hand, from the point of view of third party companies, the trademark seems to be much less valuable - Spycraft, M&M, True20 and Mongoose's Conan don't seem to have been hurt by being published under the OGL as opposed to the D20 licence; even though several of those games lost the right to use the little D20 logo, they seem to be perfectly happy. I suspect that unless you are Wizards or White Wolf, most of your customers are dedicated gamers, with perhaps a few browsers from mainstream bookshops picking things up occasionally (if you even have a presence in mainstream bookshops, which for most third party publishers simply isn't the case). Anyone who frequents game stores and has a passing knowledge of the field can tell an OGL product when they see it (especially since third party companies have found perfectly functional ass-covering ways of saying "this product is compatible with D&D", like "this product is compatible with the world's most popular roleplaying game").

From the same thread:

Quote from: Scott RouseWe have invested multiple 7 figures in the development of 4e so can you tell me why we would want publishers to support a system that we have moved away from?

This is not spite, malice or some evil scorched earth policy. Yes, we want people to make 4e books and stop making 3.x. Does that surprise you?

It won't surprise me if the GSL is not for everyone. If M&M, C&C, Conan, or other OGL stand-alones are successful enough for those publishers to sustain their business more power to them. You'll get to buy their books in the future. If not, then they can jump on our license and take advantage of some pretty good perks including getting to use the most valuable trademark in PnP RPGs on their products and gain access to our IP/PI.

:haw:

Quote from: WarthurSo, what happens when someone - and I think it's a case of "when", not "if" - makes a "future clone" - a document which is essentially 4E with the serial numbers filed off?

I think it would be a highly risky scenario.  People were able to essentially create 3e phb clones because the ogl is a bit sloppy in allowing things that aren't entirely intended.  Despite the attitude of OSRIC people who sometimes act like they're begging for the fun of a lawsuit, the big savior of the retro clones is that WOTC doesn't care enough.  So what if a few people who weren't likely to buy 3.5 products anyway play around with something?  WOTC didn't lose any sales; hell people aren't even rushing out to buy OSRIC compatible products.

Making a 4e clone might piss them off enough to take action.  I bet they have more things trademarked than before and are careful in spelling out product identity so it's probably harder to get super close to the same thing.  Plus the whole anti OGL+GSL thing.

The truth is though that American copyright law is very vague and untested so who knows what the outcome would be if someone had the money to survive a lawsuit.  Take a look at the recent Harry Potter case - the judge advised them to settle out of court as the law is unclear and it would like go through rounds of appeals.

Quote from: jeff37923Pierce is right, this is getting silly. What's to prevent a business from creating a company for publishing OGL material and then a second company to create GSL material?

In theory, nothing, so long as you make sure that the two companies are reasonably independent and have the sort of relationship that, say, Paizo and Necromancer have. Clark from Necromancer says here that he has confirmed with Wizards that Necromancer will be able to do 4E, and Paizo will be able to do 3E. So long as people wait until Necromancer and Paizo have been operating that way for a while without complaint from Wizards, later people trying the same deal should be OK; they'd be able to point to Necromancer and Paizo and say "well, wait a minute, you knew damn well that these people were doing the same thing and you did nothing."

Quote from: James J SkachFrom the same thread:

:haw:

Seriously, whats funny about that?  Companies publishing under the 3.5 OGL are going to be taking business away from their new game.  You are creating your own competition.  Closing off that loophole as much as possible makes business sense.

The software/hardware industry has been working like that for years.  New system comes out, you stop supporting the old system.  Eventually, all those who want to switch switch.  The rest live with what they got, and get friends to fix it when they get broken, or know how to fix it themselves.  Its a rare industry that actively tries to support people switching to their new system, and supporting those who want to stay with the old.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralSeriously, whats funny about that?  Companies publishing under the 3.5 OGL are going to be taking business away from their new game.  You are creating your own competition.  Closing off that loophole as much as possible makes business sense.

I think it's a matter of people becoming greedy and lazy.  It's like their mom came home to find that they've eaten an entire pie.  When she gets mad, they say "you said I could have pie!"  "Ok, next time, only one slice."  "Whaaah!"

Even a restrictive GSL is far more than most companies offer even if it's not entirely open.  Why aren't people railing against every other game that has no open content at all?  How many publishers on this board offer their system for free use by other companies?

Quote from: HackmastergeneralSeriously, whats funny about that?  Companies publishing under the 3.5 OGL are going to be taking business away from their new game.  You are creating your own competition.  Closing off that loophole as much as possible makes business sense.

It strikes me as funny on a number of levels. First, it's so...blatant. As I said over on d20 Haven, it's a great indicator as to how decisions are made. It's not wrong - in a way it's refreshing.  We did this for business reasons. Plain and simple. And that, to me, is amusing - in a good way.

Second, it means they understand what a shitty thing the OGL was in terms of the control they would have over it in the future. To me, one of two things is, then, true.

a) they had no idea when they made the OGL what it's long term effect would be. In which case, someone sold them a bill of goods.
b) they knew exactly what it would mean and planned on closing it off with a move like this in the future. This is a bit conspiracy theory, but I wouldn't put it past a company (not that there's anythign wrong with it - yay capitalism!)

Third, I love the whole "be glad we even let you use our IP," stuff.  I'm still trying to parse that (as I mention, also, over on d20 Haven).  I mean, what, other than the logo and trademark stuff, are they giving us at their great beneficence?

So, it just struck me as amusing on several levels...

Have fun guys, I'm out for a bit as the little league season starts in a few minutes.  Enjoy the debate!

What a fucking mess the GSL turned out to be.  Or should we start calling it the G$L (come on, you know you want to)?

I think WotC is making a big mistake with this one.  I'm not upset about it or anything, as I was never liked 3e and have hated nearly everything I've heard about 4e; I just think WotC is being very dumb.

Whatever other opinions I had about Dancey, the OGL/D20 idea was brilliant.  And he was proved right - the heavy 3rd party support only helped gain attention for D&D.  WotC is apparently convinced that they somehow missed out on money they were entitled to.

A couple other observations from the EnWorld thread:

* Scott Rouse is the kind of condescending ass that is so typical of WotC staff nowadays.  Is being an arrogant blowhard a job requirement at WotC now?

* Clark Peterson needs to grow some fucking balls and stop licking WotC's boots.  Seriously dude, when WotC pisses on you in public could you please have a fucking spine enough to at least not say "thank you Sir, may I have another?"

* WotC and Hasbro are morons if they think any of this will somehow lead to massive new profits.  I very much expect 4e to have a life cycle similar to 2e, just accelerated a bit.

* With the state of the economy, I would think now would not be the best time to go out of their way to piss off customers on the pie-in-the-sky hopes that a bunch of WoW teenz are going to come in like the cavalry and save the day.

Quote from: jgants* Clark Peterson needs to grow some fucking balls and stop licking WotC's boots.  Seriously dude, when WotC pisses on you in public could you please have a fucking spine enough to at least not say "thank you Sir, may I have another?"

Yeah, no kidding.

He should go off on Rouse like he did Rob Kuntz. Now THAT was some funny shit.

Quote from: FASERIPHe should go off on Rouse like he did Rob Kuntz. Now THAT was some funny shit.

I missed that one, got a link?

Here ya go.

LINK

Quote from: HackmastergeneralThe software/hardware industry has been working like that for years.  New system comes out, you stop supporting the old system.  Eventually, all those who want to switch switch.  The rest live with what they got, and get friends to fix it when they get broken, or know how to fix it themselves.  Its a rare industry that actively tries to support people switching to their new system, and supporting those who want to stay with the old.

Yes, but there is a major difference here.  If you have been making money selling products for XP, you don't have to stop selling XP stuff if you want to develop stuff for Vista.

Do I have that right, though?  If you want to make 4e products, you have to stop making OGL products?  How can such a legal restriction exist?

Quote from: James J Skacha) they had no idea when they made the OGL what it's long term effect would be. In which case, someone sold them a bill of goods.

Keep in mind the OGL 'They' are a completely different group of people. Different at the low level, different management, different ownership. And 8 years later different tack.

It is one hell of a ballsy move that, if they pull it off, shows that the irrevocable nature of the OGL didn't extend as far as many people thought it did.

Of course it could blow up in their face. But I suspect that'll happen only if 4e sucks in play [as judged by the masses, not us]. And as much as I think the internet wind matters know even more than 3e/3.5, just like then it isn't going to be decided by the loudest of the %20ish detractors you'll find in [uncontrolled] online polls.  Hell even more recently saw the same sort of numbers for Shadowrun 4e, and loud verbal outcry on the internet, and in it sold like gangbusters.