Quote from: Ghostmaker on August 02, 2023, 02:04:58 PM
The problem with any CRPG system -- and I include AI-driven campaigns in this -- is that CRPGs simply cannot account for the insane troll logic a group of players may deploy.

And at that point, the system will break.

But this isn't about trying to replicate a "Real" RPG play experience.

So long as the wider player base is used to running through pre-packaged railroad adventures, there really isn't a problem...

And it's not like Wotzi or even TSR haven't turned out their share of those in their time.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 02, 2023, 01:34:10 PM
Wotzi is licking the drool from their lips at the possibilities of this with their D&D VTT...

Teburu was clearly acquired as a proof-of-concept for "AI GM's". Tested and proved in a "Board Game" environment so as not to upset the "RPG" proles...

Maybe it's not ready for prime time right now, but they clearly have a working model... 3-4 years down the line?

I see "Interactive Adventure Modules" for the Wotzi OneVTT, solo and group, being marketed within five years.

Yup.  I've played at several "pick-up" tables at local game stores (maybe about a year back).  Most of the players had their character sheets on DNDBeyond open on their phone, and rolled with a digital dice roller.  The maps were all on Roll20 and visible on a tablet at the center of the table.  Digital tools are already ubiquitous.  It's not just a matter of Wotzi making them mandatory (and proprietary)...

Quote from: GhostNinja on August 01, 2023, 09:36:27 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2023, 09:24:54 AM
The goal is to turn D&D into a microtransaction hellscape. I will have no part in this.

Yeah me either.  I want to keep as much technology out of my game as possible.

I run one of my games online so the online game table is a VTT and of course we use discord for chat/video but that is as much as I will allow.   

If I am running a game in person, I want books and physical character sheets.

Me neither, but let's be honest... tabletop studios have been doing this since at least the 90s. They'd release supplemental books (often with power-creep), then follow up with adventure modules that reference content in those supplements. You wouldn't get the "full experience" unless you bought everything. GMs either had to improvise or submit to their FOMO and cough up the cash.

That's essentially the same principle behind modern day microtransactions. You can either grind for hours, days or weeks to upgrade your gear, or buy the better gear now and beat that boss today. Its just trading in effort for instant gratification.

Quote from: Effete on August 02, 2023, 07:55:29 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on August 01, 2023, 09:36:27 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 01, 2023, 09:24:54 AM
The goal is to turn D&D into a microtransaction hellscape. I will have no part in this.

Yeah me either.  I want to keep as much technology out of my game as possible.

I run one of my games online so the online game table is a VTT and of course we use discord for chat/video but that is as much as I will allow.   

If I am running a game in person, I want books and physical character sheets.

Me neither, but let's be honest... tabletop studios have been doing this since at least the 90s. They'd release supplemental books (often with power-creep), then follow up with adventure modules that reference content in those supplements. You wouldn't get the "full experience" unless you bought everything. GMs either had to improvise or submit to their FOMO and cough up the cash.

That's essentially the same principle behind modern day microtransactions. You can either grind for hours, days or weeks to upgrade your gear, or buy the better gear now and beat that boss today. Its just trading in effort for instant gratification.

It turns me off a lot of the OSR stuff. Supplement after supplement of nothing but another variant class.

Wait... that article about Paradox... is WotC planning to be working with Paradox or even using it as an example?

If so...

BWHAHAHAH!!!

Paradox basically drove the World of Darkness into the ground, crapped on it and lit the whole thing on fire. They still haven't gotten their vaporware Bloodlines 2 out the door after years with no sign of life.

WotC even looking Paradox as an example just means this is going to be a five tubs of popcorn dumpster fire.

There's an untapped market for urban fantasy video games that Paradox has consistently failed to appease. The most positive reviews I've seen have been "this game sucks, but you have to buy it anyway to show Paradox your support." Meanwhile, an original game was positively reviewed and one of the points in favor was that it wasn't held back by Paradox's IP.

The main thing a writer needs to understand is that the story needs to stand on its own. You can't rely on brand name recognition as a crutch in a competitive market if the product isn't good.

Of course they are making an AI dungeon master. They would be idiots not to. I mean, they are idiots, but the biggest barrier to casual audiences playing D&D is a competent dungeon master.

Yes, it will suck compared to a human DM, but it will be tremendously better than no DM.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 02, 2023, 10:19:46 PM
Of course they are making an AI dungeon master. They would be idiots not to. I mean, they are idiots, but the biggest barrier to casual audiences playing D&D is a competent dungeon master.

Yes, it will suck compared to a human DM, but it will be tremendously better than no DM.

Well, it'll suck less until the AI bans you from the game for wrongthink BigPurple-style.

I can see it now, they'll have some scenario where you'll be expected to protect some child who wants to be a rainbowsparklepony from his "evil" parents... and the AI will dock you points from your in-game social credit store for not doing so or even worse, siding with the parents.

Then your male character turns down a relationship with the bearded tranny "woman" ... there go more points.

Then you try to stop the orcs from burning down the town in the name of racial equity and... BAM! The game logs you out, you can't log back in and get an email saying you're "not a good fit" for the service (but thank you for the $353.87 in in-game purchases you made).

While the examples are extreme, the people in charge of WotC think just like the mentally ill moderators of TBP and their AI and ban policies will be written accordingly.

The people who still give any money to WotC deserve all that they will get from the company.

Quote from: Tod13 on August 02, 2023, 08:26:23 PM

Quote from: Effete on August 02, 2023, 07:55:29 PM
Me neither, but let's be honest... tabletop studios have been doing this since at least the 90s. They'd release supplemental books (often with power-creep), then follow up with adventure modules that reference content in those supplements. You wouldn't get the "full experience" unless you bought everything. GMs either had to improvise or submit to their FOMO and cough up the cash.

That's essentially the same principle behind modern day microtransactions. You can either grind for hours, days or weeks to upgrade your gear, or buy the better gear now and beat that boss today. Its just trading in effort for instant gratification.

It turns me off a lot of the OSR stuff. Supplement after supplement of nothing but another variant class.

Sadly, that model still exists, and it has only gotten worse in the information age. There is no shortage of single-class (one or two page) products for purchase on DTRPG, et al. Each one costing sometimes as much as $3. Tally it up and you will quickly realize you are NOT getting your money's worth. Fifteen dollars for only five classes, when that price-point should get you an entire supplement with lore and a few gear items as well? No, thanks.

People like to complain about the "big guys" ruining the gaming industry, but these predatory practices are also coming from indy developers. DnD might have woke nonsense and poor writing in it's products, but at least you get a full book.

Ha$bro sold eOne for 500 million, to focus in becoming a video game giant...

Video games are a cut throat industry where corpos cannot coast on brand recognition or monopolies. If your product isn't good, then gamers will tear you apart. AAA games are heading for a crash that everyone can see but nobody is doing anything about. Mobile games are a mtx hellscape devoid of quality or artistic value.

If Hasbro doesn't get shredded, then they'll reduce their IPs to bland mtx hellscapes.

If 5e gets canceled and no new D&D books are made, then this is going to turn the tabletop market on its head. D&D has dominated the overwhelming majority of the market for decades. What happens when it suddenly disappears? What will rush to fill the vacuum? Paizo? Or will the market fracture?

I don't have any answers.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 03, 2023, 08:10:52 AM
Well, it'll suck less until the AI bans you from the game for wrongthink BigPurple-style.

Oh, yeah, I'm not saying I'm for AI DM's. Just that it is inevitable. The blue haired weirdos and their corporate and political allies are going to use AI to enforce correct think in every avenue they can.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 03, 2023, 10:09:20 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 03, 2023, 08:10:52 AM
Well, it'll suck less until the AI bans you from the game for wrongthink BigPurple-style.

Oh, yeah, I'm not saying I'm for AI DM's. Just that it is inevitable. The blue haired weirdos and their corporate and political allies are going to use AI to enforce correct think in every avenue they can.

Which is why I much prefer paper and pen* at the gaming table. They have no opinions to foist on me.

* my dice, on the other hand, are as opinionated as frak!

Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 03, 2023, 10:09:20 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 03, 2023, 08:10:52 AM
Well, it'll suck less until the AI bans you from the game for wrongthink BigPurple-style.

Oh, yeah, I'm not saying I'm for AI DM's. Just that it is inevitable. The blue haired weirdos and their corporate and political allies are going to use AI to enforce correct think in every avenue they can.

Not only inevitable, but desirable. At least for the business model WotC seems to be going for.

Don't get me wrong, I think they're heading for disaster with their OneVTT, but from an objective viewpoint, the only sustainable way to retain a consistent player base is to automate the role of the DM. Otherwise they're going to need people on full-time rotation 24-7 just running games. The turnover rate would be emormous due to burnout. It's absurd to even fathom how they thought this would work without automation.

It's been said a hundred times already, but OneVTT will essentially become a glorified video game. The AI-DM would have a lot more freedom (at least within the constraints of its learning parameters) versus the scripted nature of an actual video game, but it will still be predictable and, thus, exploitable.

I'm also willing to bet there will be a virtual version of X cards that would flag a game for manual review, putting a stop to everyone's fun worse than they do at a live table. Sounds great! I'll be watching from over there.