With all this Ogl crap going on, I think it's time to think about the worst Rpg Company. So In your opinion what is the worst Rpg Company, in terms of how they treat their fans, and the quality of their products. For me Wotc is a big contender of course but, I also think that Evil Hat publishing is also up their. Anyways what are Your thoughts?
Quote from: Yabba on January 16, 2023, 12:51:38 PM
With all this Ogl crap going on, I think it's time to think about the worst Rpg Company. So In your opinion what is the worst Rpg Company, in terms of how they treat their fans, and the quality of their products. For me Wotc is a big contender of course but, I also think that Evil Hat publishing is also up their. Anyways what are Your thoughts?
IMHO:
Contenders for the first place would be WotC & GW followed closelly by Evil Hat.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 16, 2023, 12:54:28 PM
Quote from: Yabba on January 16, 2023, 12:51:38 PM
With all this Ogl crap going on, I think it's time to think about the worst Rpg Company. So In your opinion what is the worst Rpg Company, in terms of how they treat their fans, and the quality of their products. For me Wotc is a big contender of course but, I also think that Evil Hat publishing is also up their. Anyways what are Your thoughts?
IMHO:
Contenders for the first place would be WotC & GW followed closelly by Evil Hat.
Forgot about Gw but, they aren't really a rpg Company.
Quote from: Yabba on January 16, 2023, 12:58:47 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 16, 2023, 12:54:28 PM
Quote from: Yabba on January 16, 2023, 12:51:38 PM
With all this Ogl crap going on, I think it's time to think about the worst Rpg Company. So In your opinion what is the worst Rpg Company, in terms of how they treat their fans, and the quality of their products. For me Wotc is a big contender of course but, I also think that Evil Hat publishing is also up their. Anyways what are Your thoughts?
IMHO:
Contenders for the first place would be WotC & GW followed closelly by Evil Hat.
Forgot about Gw but, they aren't really a rpg Company.
Really? Who publishes the Warhammer Fantasy RPG then?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 16, 2023, 01:02:36 PM
Quote from: Yabba on January 16, 2023, 12:58:47 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 16, 2023, 12:54:28 PM
Quote from: Yabba on January 16, 2023, 12:51:38 PM
With all this Ogl crap going on, I think it's time to think about the worst Rpg Company. So In your opinion what is the worst Rpg Company, in terms of how they treat their fans, and the quality of their products. For me Wotc is a big contender of course but, I also think that Evil Hat publishing is also up their. Anyways what are Your thoughts?
IMHO:
Contenders for the first place would be WotC & GW followed closelly by Evil Hat.
Forgot about Gw but, they aren't really a rpg Company.
Really? Who publishes the Warhammer Fantasy RPG then?
It's nowhere near there main focus or what they became famous for.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 16, 2023, 01:02:36 PM
Really? Who publishes the Warhammer Fantasy RPG then?
Hasn't every edition since 1st been licensed out to someone else?
We shouldn't forget about Palladium.
Hard to say. This is what is known in some circles as a "target rich environment."
Paradox, White Wolf Wolf, Renegade Studios... whatever the fuck head of the beast is that's been putting out 5E World of Darkness books.
At least, they currently have the most of my ire.
Games Workshop by an unfathomable degree. Wizards is only trying to achieve what GW dominates for decades.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 16, 2023, 01:02:36 PM
Quote from: Yabba on January 16, 2023, 12:58:47 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 16, 2023, 12:54:28 PM
Quote from: Yabba on January 16, 2023, 12:51:38 PM
With all this Ogl crap going on, I think it's time to think about the worst Rpg Company. So In your opinion what is the worst Rpg Company, in terms of how they treat their fans, and the quality of their products. For me Wotc is a big contender of course but, I also think that Evil Hat publishing is also up their. Anyways what are Your thoughts?
IMHO:
Contenders for the first place would be WotC & GW followed closelly by Evil Hat.
Forgot about Gw but, they aren't really a rpg Company.
Really? Who publishes the Warhammer Fantasy RPG then?
Cubicle 7. Various others have published previously, e.g. Hogshead and Fantasy Flight Games, but Cubicle 7 are the current publisher.
Quote from: migo on January 16, 2023, 01:36:54 PM
We shouldn't forget about Palladium.
What's wrong with Palladium? Kevin Siembieda might have issues running a business, but he doesn't actively despise anyone who buys his games.
Quote from: Brad on January 16, 2023, 04:13:01 PM
Quote from: migo on January 16, 2023, 01:36:54 PM
We shouldn't forget about Palladium.
What's wrong with Palladium? Kevin Siembieda might have issues running a business, but he doesn't actively despise anyone who buys his games.
He's very aggressive with C&D against anyone putting out fan content for his games. I don't know if he despises them, but he sure treats them like shit. Haven't heard him being any better to the writers.
Quote from: Brad on January 16, 2023, 04:13:01 PM
What's wrong with Palladium? Kevin Siembieda might have issues running a business, but he doesn't actively despise anyone who buys his games.
No, he just hates his writers. Because they all suffer from the crime of "Not being Kevin Seimbieda" as far as I can tell.
Still a big Palladium fan, but...
I'll nominate Peterson Games for having several unfulfilled kickstarters, all of which have dragged on for years, then they send these BS announcements just stretching things out further without ever responding to actual queries about progress. At this point, they should just declare bankruptcy and/or shut down rather than continue the sham that they will actually finish anything. Some of these are board games so that might not count for purposes of the discussion, however.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 16, 2023, 05:20:48 PM
I'll nominate Peterson Games for having several unfulfilled kickstarters, all of which have dragged on for years, then they send these BS announcements just stretching things out further without ever responding to actual queries about progress. At this point, they should just declare bankruptcy and/or shut down rather than continue the sham that they will actually finish anything. Some of these are board games so that might not count for purposes of the discussion, however.
I backed Far West over ten years ago. GMS is still updating his kickstarter campaign saying "Soon". His most recent "Really soon nao guys, I super-promise this time!" was back in November.
There's a gotcha in the caveat, 'how they treat their fans'. Evil Hat's fans are I'm sure quite on board with their ecstatic virtue signalling their hate for the man whose work they pilfered to sell their game, so technically they aren't treating their fans poorly. I think they're shitty people who made a garbage game system, but I'm not their fan, and they probably hope I die in a fire. Games Workshop really deserves the crown for abusing their fans relentlessly, I don't think any other tabletop gaming company comes close, though like Yabba pointed out they aren't directly making any RPG at the moment. Wizards? Ehhhhhhhhh. Maybe? Like Evil Hat I think they've been churning out garbage for years now, but I'm not sure that in and of itself counts as abusive to the fans. The whole OGL debacle indirectly abuses fans by curtailing the creators in the market that might make good compatible things, but also isn't direct fan abuse. Palladium in the past and TSR would both be strong contenders since they'd go out of their way to threaten fan content with lawyers, though I haven't heard of Palladium doing it recently and TSR is gone, so.
That indian guy who made the Wakanda for indians RPG and then demanded that white people buy copies to support him while also decrying them playing it, I think I'd probably vote for him. Dude was actively talking down to his fanbase of white saviors buying his shit entirely because it was indian, so I think he counts. Oh, also David Hill, since I think he ran a bunch of kickstarters and ran with the money.
what's the deal with evil hat?
Quote from: Valatar on January 16, 2023, 05:47:13 PM
There's a gotcha in the caveat, 'how they treat their fans'. Evil Hat's fans are I'm sure quite on board with their ecstatic virtue signalling their hate for the man whose work they pilfered to sell their game, so technically they aren't treating their fans poorly. I think they're shitty people who made a garbage game system, but I'm not their fan, and they probably hope I die in a fire. Games Workshop really deserves the crown for abusing their fans relentlessly, I don't think any other tabletop gaming company comes close, though like Yabba pointed out they aren't directly making any RPG at the moment. Wizards? Ehhhhhhhhh. Maybe? Like Evil Hat I think they've been churning out garbage for years now, but I'm not sure that in and of itself counts as abusive to the fans. The whole OGL debacle indirectly abuses fans by curtailing the creators in the market that might make good compatible things, but also isn't direct fan abuse. Palladium in the past and TSR would both be strong contenders since they'd go out of their way to threaten fan content with lawyers, though I haven't heard of Palladium doing it recently and TSR is gone, so.
That indian guy who made the Wakanda for indians RPG and then demanded that white people buy copies to support him while also decrying them playing it, I think I'd probably vote for him. Dude was actively talking down to his fanbase of white saviors buying his shit entirely because it was indian, so I think he counts. Oh, also David Hill, since I think he ran a bunch of kickstarters and ran with the money.
I think there's a huge difference between "said mean things on the Internet" compared to actions like unethically taking people's money, breaking contracts, or spurious lawsuits or cease and desist letters.
De-authorizing the OGL v1.0a is highly unethical since WotC told its fans that it was permanent in their own FAQ, and many fans created content on that basis. Similar for TSR and Palladium sending cease and desist letters for fan content that doesn't infringe. Taking Kickstarter money without delivering is obviously unethical - like David Hill or Gareth-Michael Skarka.
Quote from: jhkim on January 16, 2023, 09:42:47 PMI think there's a huge difference between "said mean things on the Internet" compared to actions like unethically taking people's money, breaking contracts, or spurious lawsuits or cease and desist letters.
This is a good point. Before you can determine which current publisher is the "worst" you have to define your criteria. Based on the posts so far I would suggest the following list:
- Poor quality of actual product delivered.
- Poor reliability and speed of releasing products on promised schedules (especially if pre-funded).
- Unethical behaviour towards employees, contractors, licensees, and competitors, including unilaterally revoking content permissions for fair use in a way that would create a
de facto monopoly for yourself.
- Adoption and promulgation of public moral/cultural positions with the active intent of (or at least negligent disdain about) alienating customers, thus damaging market base.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on January 16, 2023, 06:07:49 PM
what's the deal with evil hat?
They invited themselves to the culture war without being asked. They released a Lovecraft setting and spent at least one full page of the book excoriating the man whose work they'd taken to sell for money. Then a rumor came out that the Lovecraft setting involved time traveling agents fighting Cthulhu because it was actually written to be a Terminator setting but they couldn't get the rights to it, so instead they started a kickstarter for Lovecraft fans and pooped out their rebranded Terminator book to the people who'd handed them money and also took a dump on Lovecraft in the process. Many Lovecraft fans were not fans of having been bilked out of their money for a garbage book that wasted ink on denouncing the guy who was the reason they'd paid for the book, and were subsequently called fascists and such for having a problem with it. That's basically par for the course with the Evil Hat people.
Additionally from a personal perspective, FATE is a complete trash system that basically amounts to flipping a coin and then the GM just makes up whatever shit they feel like regardless of the result, anyone responsible for it is bad and should feel bad.
Quote from: Valatar on January 16, 2023, 11:54:00 PMThen a rumor came out that the Lovecraft setting involved time traveling agents fighting Cthulhu because it was actually written to be a Terminator setting but (Evil Hat) couldn't get the rights to it, so instead they started a kickstarter for Lovecraft fans and pooped out their rebranded Terminator book to the people who'd handed them money and also took a dump on Lovecraft in the process.
Was this ever confirmed, or is it still just rumoured? Not that spending a whole page telling people why they shouldn't like what they just paid you money to get isn't a bonehead move in itself -- in any industry other than modern fandom, that is -- but I have a firm policy of not believing any rumour until it's proven, having been the victim of one as a kid.
Quote from: Valatar on January 16, 2023, 11:54:00 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on January 16, 2023, 06:07:49 PM
what's the deal with evil hat?
They invited themselves to the culture war without being asked. They released a Lovecraft setting and spent at least one full page of the book excoriating the man whose work they'd taken to sell for money. Then a rumor came out that the Lovecraft setting involved time traveling agents fighting Cthulhu because it was actually written to be a Terminator setting but they couldn't get the rights to it, so instead they started a kickstarter for Lovecraft fans and pooped out their rebranded Terminator book to the people who'd handed them money and also took a dump on Lovecraft in the process. Many Lovecraft fans were not fans of having been bilked out of their money for a garbage book that wasted ink on denouncing the guy who was the reason they'd paid for the book, and were subsequently called fascists and such for having a problem with it. That's basically par for the course with the Evil Hat people.
Additionally from a personal perspective, FATE is a complete trash system that basically amounts to flipping a coin and then the GM just makes up whatever shit they feel like regardless of the result, anyone responsible for it is bad and should feel bad.
Don't forget pro-actively launching campaigns to get books pulled off of DTRPG because of their own moral delusions.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 17, 2023, 12:33:05 AM
Quote from: Valatar on January 16, 2023, 11:54:00 PMThen a rumor came out that the Lovecraft setting involved time traveling agents fighting Cthulhu because it was actually written to be a Terminator setting but (Evil Hat) couldn't get the rights to it, so instead they started a kickstarter for Lovecraft fans and pooped out their rebranded Terminator book to the people who'd handed them money and also took a dump on Lovecraft in the process.
Was this ever confirmed, or is it still just rumoured? Not that spending a whole page telling people why they shouldn't like what they just paid you money to get isn't a bonehead move in itself -- in any industry other than modern fandom, that is -- but I have a firm policy of not believing any rumour until it's proven, having been the victim of one as a kid.
This is about the "FATE of Cthulhu", right? I don't have the book itself and I don't know the insider history of its writing, but it was clearly advertised as being about time-traveling agents a la Terminator. This was the Kickstarter description:
QuoteYou are those one-way travelers from a dark future and their crucial allies from the present day, working together to save the human race from looming apocalypse. Armed with foreknowledge of Judgment Day, you must succeed at a series of vital missions aimed at restoring hope to the future.
But the clock is ticking. The corrupting influence of the Great Old Ones is sure to affect you before the end, twisting you slowly and inexorably into something alien and unrecognizable.
QuoteThe idea for Fate of Cthulhu started with a simple question: what if Cthulhu operated like Skynet? In this game you'll face down Mythos-style threats with Terminator-style action and adventure, whether as a present-day Sarah Connor type, or an agent from the future already facing the creeping effects of corruption. This is Lovecraftian roleplaying made new again, with time-traveling operatives from a future apocalypse journeying back to the present day to warn others of the coming danger (and recruit them) to try to set the timeline on a new and hopefully better course.
So it does seem to be a Terminator-inspired concept, and maybe it was initially developed as a straight Terminator adaptation, but it also seems clearly advertised as such.
Quote from: Effete on January 17, 2023, 12:39:56 AM
Quote from: Valatar on January 16, 2023, 11:54:00 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on January 16, 2023, 06:07:49 PM
what's the deal with evil hat?
They invited themselves to the culture war without being asked. They released a Lovecraft setting and spent at least one full page of the book excoriating the man whose work they'd taken to sell for money. Then a rumor came out that the Lovecraft setting involved time traveling agents fighting Cthulhu because it was actually written to be a Terminator setting but they couldn't get the rights to it, so instead they started a kickstarter for Lovecraft fans and pooped out their rebranded Terminator book to the people who'd handed them money and also took a dump on Lovecraft in the process. Many Lovecraft fans were not fans of having been bilked out of their money for a garbage book that wasted ink on denouncing the guy who was the reason they'd paid for the book, and were subsequently called fascists and such for having a problem with it. That's basically par for the course with the Evil Hat people.
Additionally from a personal perspective, FATE is a complete trash system that basically amounts to flipping a coin and then the GM just makes up whatever shit they feel like regardless of the result, anyone responsible for it is bad and should feel bad.
Don't forget pro-actively launching campaigns to get books pulled off of DTRPG because of their own moral delusions.
Yes this makes Evil Hat one of the worst companies for the hobby as a whole, even if they're not going after their fans. That being said, they probably lost a number of fans, from before they really showed themselves to be as Evil as their company name indicates. So that probably can be counted as being shit to fans.
Evil Hat. They make great games but are pretty all-around nasty (IMO).
And that co. that makes Zweihander.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on January 16, 2023, 06:07:49 PM
what's the deal with evil hat?
They strongly imply/outright state that there are ideological criteria for playing some of their games, and that those who fall short are morally defective. See p. 9 of the free preview for Thirsty Sword Lesbians on DTRPG (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/348096/Thirsty-Sword-Lesbians).
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 17, 2023, 06:25:20 AM
Evil Hat. They make great games but are pretty all-around nasty (IMO).
And that co. that makes Zweihander.
I remember a lot of controversy about Zweihander, but no details, what was that about?
Quote from: Trond on January 17, 2023, 08:44:38 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 17, 2023, 06:25:20 AM
Evil Hat. They make great games but are pretty all-around nasty (IMO).
And that co. that makes Zweihander.
I remember a lot of controversy about Zweihander, but no details, what was that about?
It's going back a bit... but all the alleged legal shit he threatened and his sock puppet accounts, etc.
In the case of Zweihander, it's really just Daniel Fox personally, right? He was also involved in taking down that site with all the old out of print stuff for copyright reasons which many found hypocritical due to the origins of his own game being a rip-off of Warhammer.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 17, 2023, 09:00:20 AM
In the case of Zweihander, it's really just Daniel Fox personally, right?
Yeah, he comes across as a complete buffoon. Does he own that RPG company? If not then they might actually be ok.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 16, 2023, 05:20:48 PM
I'll nominate Peterson Games for having several unfulfilled kickstarters, all of which have dragged on for years, then they send these BS announcements just stretching things out further without ever responding to actual queries about progress. At this point, they should just declare bankruptcy and/or shut down rather than continue the sham that they will actually finish anything. Some of these are board games so that might not count for purposes of the discussion, however.
Sandy Peterson?
I tend to avoid Kickstarters and only buy the finished product, so this hasn't affected me. I like my 5e D&D Cthulu book.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 17, 2023, 09:08:42 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on January 17, 2023, 09:00:20 AM
In the case of Zweihander, it's really just Daniel Fox personally, right?
Yeah, he comes across as a complete buffoon. Does he own that RPG company? If not then they might actually be ok.
It's very much just him AFAIK.
Quote from: S'mon on January 17, 2023, 10:36:42 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 17, 2023, 09:08:42 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on January 17, 2023, 09:00:20 AM
In the case of Zweihander, it's really just Daniel Fox personally, right?
Yeah, he comes across as a complete buffoon. Does he own that RPG company? If not then they might actually be ok.
It's very much just him AFAIK.
Ah... That's what I thought. Insert 'vomit emoji' here.
I nominate the (real life) communist W.M Akers and his game, "Comrades" a game of violent communist revolution.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/260813/Comrades-A-Revolutionary-RPG
He puts a disclaimer at the end of this page that the game doesn't advocate real-life violence. This is a lie.
In his KS campaign, he states his reason for the game is to inspire people to be activists again. On the site, he is crestfallen that bold communist activism is dying down in recent decades. He actually advocates on the crowdfund page that people engage is VIOLENT revolutionary acts in real life, not just the game. advocating violence on a KS site is against their terms, but it looks like KS drew a blind eye again when it advances their agenda.
I don't understand that a person who believes in communism is trying to profit off his game, instead of give it away to the people. I don't advocate piracy, but I know there are loose virtual copies floating around the web, and not paying for this game and giving him evil profits would be doing him a favor . I just choose not to own it.
Quote from: Bruwulf on January 16, 2023, 04:21:57 PM
Quote from: Brad on January 16, 2023, 04:13:01 PM
What's wrong with Palladium? Kevin Siembieda might have issues running a business, but he doesn't actively despise anyone who buys his games.
No, he just hates his writers. Because they all suffer from the crime of "Not being Kevin Seimbieda" as far as I can tell.
Still a big Palladium fan, but...
HAHAHA so true.
I hate going through the older books and seeing Kevin talk about "This book started as a great idea by <X> but when I got the manuscript, I had to tell <X> it wasn't up to Palladium Standards(tm), so I cracked my knuckles and wrote it myself. And finally, with great fanfare... HERE IT IS!"
I'm glad that Sean Roberson joined Palladium and is taking over a lot of the face-to-face with the public. His handling of Savage Worlds Rifts has been been excellent. It shocked me to see Kevin to be on board too. Now Sean seems to be getting Palladium itself up and rolling with their own kickstarters. I'm looking forward to Palladium's ship steaming forward again.
Yeah, I was flabbergasted that anyone managed to pry RIFTS out of Kevin's still-living hands to put it on a different system. But I suppose Palladium hasn't been doing great sales in recent years and he needed the cash.
Well he got a partner that has done a bang-up job of energizing Palladium fans (and think of the *HARD SELL* it took to get Palladium fan to even *look* at Savage Worlds), the Savage Worlds Rifts announcement made my head do a couple of 360's.
Now that SWRifts is rolling right along - he's turn Palladium back to actually shipping product. Sean and Kevin said they have like 13-projects in the pipe and most of them are 70%+ completed.
Good for them. Palladium's always had great IPs, but that system is unplayable garbage. Switching to SW is a massive improvement for it.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 16, 2023, 01:09:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 16, 2023, 01:02:36 PM
Really? Who publishes the Warhammer Fantasy RPG then?
Hasn't every edition since 1st been licensed out to someone else?
Yes, it has.
Quote from: Dropbear on January 17, 2023, 03:48:23 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 16, 2023, 01:09:51 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 16, 2023, 01:02:36 PM
Really? Who publishes the Warhammer Fantasy RPG then?
Hasn't every edition since 1st been licensed out to someone else?
Yes, it has.
Even 1st Edition was taken over by Hogshead Publishing after a while.
Basically GW has very little to do directly with WFRP. And that's a Very Good Thing.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 16, 2023, 10:07:35 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 16, 2023, 09:42:47 PMI think there's a huge difference between "said mean things on the Internet" compared to actions like unethically taking people's money, breaking contracts, or spurious lawsuits or cease and desist letters.
This is a good point. Before you can determine which current publisher is the "worst" you have to define your criteria. Based on the posts so far I would suggest the following list:
- Poor quality of actual product delivered.
- Poor reliability and speed of releasing products on promised schedules (especially if pre-funded).
- Unethical behaviour towards employees, contractors, licensees, and competitors, including unilaterally revoking content permissions for fair use in a way that would create a de facto monopoly for yourself.
- Adoption and promulgation of public moral/cultural positions with the active intent of (or at least negligent disdain about) alienating customers, thus damaging market base.
I really like these set guidelines. I think we should try and use them from now on, so I'm going to edit the original post to have them in there
Quote from: S'mon on January 17, 2023, 10:36:14 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on January 16, 2023, 05:20:48 PM
I'll nominate Peterson Games for having several unfulfilled kickstarters, all of which have dragged on for years, then they send these BS announcements just stretching things out further without ever responding to actual queries about progress. At this point, they should just declare bankruptcy and/or shut down rather than continue the sham that they will actually finish anything. Some of these are board games so that might not count for purposes of the discussion, however.
Sandy Peterson?
I tend to avoid Kickstarters and only buy the finished product, so this hasn't affected me. I like my 5e D&D Cthulu book.
Yeah, Sandy Peterson. He has the planning and money management skills of a 5 year old at a toy store. Avoid anything he's personally in charge of like the plague.
Quote from: Yabba on January 16, 2023, 12:51:38 PM
With all this Ogl crap going on, I think it's time to think about the worst Rpg Company. So In your opinion what is the worst Rpg Company, in terms of how they treat their fans, and the quality of their products. For me Wotc is a big contender of course but, I also think that Evil Hat publishing is also up their. Anyways what are Your thoughts?
Edit: Stephan Tannhauser made a really good list for the purpose of this thread, and I'm posting it here as a sort of guideline towards more in depth discussion.
- Poor quality of actual product delivered.
- Poor reliability and speed of releasing products on promised schedules (especially if pre-funded).
- Unethical behaviour towards employees, contractors, licensees, and competitors, including unilaterally revoking content permissions for fair use in a way that would create a de facto monopoly for yourself.
- Adoption and promulgation of public moral/cultural positions with the active intent of (or at least negligent disdain about) alienating customers, thus damaging market base.
Quote from: Brad on January 16, 2023, 04:13:01 PM
Quote from: migo on January 16, 2023, 01:36:54 PM
We shouldn't forget about Palladium.
What's wrong with Palladium? Kevin Siembieda might have issues running a business, but he doesn't actively despise anyone who buys his games.
I would nominate Palladium just for the god-awful layout. I own four different Palladium core books (five if you count Rifts core and Rifts Ultimate as separate products), and I still can't grok the core system.
I would put as evil thought more in the hypocritical spent from EH.
The owner of the company goes into the whole bullshit on Twitter on how the rich have too much money and the poor not enough. The usual Capitalism= bad yet at the same time makes sure to encourage the same people he is preaching to make sure they back EH latest kickstarter.
As well as hating HP Lovecraft while still using him and his works to make money off of him.!
WOTC
I don't know, man, Hasbro is giving Evil Hat and Varg a run for their money right now.
Quote from: Yabba on January 16, 2023, 01:03:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 16, 2023, 01:02:36 PM
Quote from: Yabba on January 16, 2023, 12:58:47 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 16, 2023, 12:54:28 PM
Quote from: Yabba on January 16, 2023, 12:51:38 PM
With all this Ogl crap going on, I think it's time to think about the worst Rpg Company. So In your opinion what is the worst Rpg Company, in terms of how they treat their fans, and the quality of their products. For me Wotc is a big contender of course but, I also think that Evil Hat publishing is also up their. Anyways what are Your thoughts?
IMHO:
Contenders for the first place would be WotC & GW followed closelly by Evil Hat.
Forgot about Gw but, they aren't really a rpg Company.
Really? Who publishes the Warhammer Fantasy RPG then?
It's nowhere near there main focus or what they became famous for.
Then wotc would not count either. Their main focus is mtg.
Quote from: Omega on January 25, 2023, 02:31:32 PM
Then wotc would not count either. Their main focus is mtg.
Completely different situation. WotC may focus more on MTG, but they also still produce D&D. GW doesn't produce WFRP. They haven't since partway through the 1E days, when they handed it off to Hogshead. Even during the 2E era where they used their "Black Industries" imprint for publishing it, the games were still produced by Green Ronin, and are marked as such. Then they handed it off to FFG, then from there to C7, who holds it currently.
Worst companies?
Games Workshop: They treat their store workers like disposable slaves. They treat FLGS like dirt. They gouge players on an unprecedented scale. They treat their designers and artists like slaves. I used to know some of the staff back in the 90s. They also copyright troll and have broken contracts with 3rd party developers. The list is long.
Hasbro/wotc: Treat designers like dirt. Treat their own product like dirt. Woke for 20+years now but only now revealing their agenda full bore. Self destructive like no other company.
Palladium: Great place to work for. Horrible place to work for. Totally schizo.
Chaosium: Went off the woke end and now has stepped up the game to internet bully as well. Used to be a pretty decent company. But they also jumped on the edition treadmill craze. This was honestly the last company I expected to see start threatening people. WTF.
Steve Jackson Games: Gradually becomming more and more hostile. Spies on forums. Loves to play internet bully. But there was hints of trouble as far back as the 90s. WTF happened?
Asmodee: Slowly garnering a rep for underhanded dealings.
White Wolf: Where to even begin? Mostly dead company now but that sure hasnt stopped some of its worst members from carrying the flag of wretchedness onwards.
Paizo: Seems to be hellbent on copying all of wotc's worst behaviors. With better PR.
Probably easier to list off companies that are not trouble in some manner. And this is creeping into board games too. I can not get the mane of the publisher but I keep hearing from one designer some of the most insane woke antics imaginable.
I'd divide my vote between Evil Hat and Games Workshop
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 27, 2023, 04:34:03 PM
I'd divide my vote between Evil Hat and Games Workshop
GW isn't really an RPG company these past 30 years or so, so I'd go with Evil Hat.
I'd just give all of the usual suspects a participation trophy and tell them that they are all "winners". They'd take it as a compliment.
Quote from: Valatar on January 16, 2023, 11:54:00 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on January 16, 2023, 06:07:49 PM
what's the deal with evil hat?
They invited themselves to the culture war without being asked. They released a Lovecraft setting and spent at least one full page of the book excoriating the man whose work they'd taken to sell for money.
This confuses me. I mean I like Lovecrafts writings but does anybody actually think he was a lovely bloke? I don't see the massive doublethink here unless you're angry about people making money of a racist. Damn those awfule people.
Quote from: Garry G on January 29, 2023, 02:13:11 PM
Quote from: Valatar on January 16, 2023, 11:54:00 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on January 16, 2023, 06:07:49 PM
what's the deal with evil hat?
They invited themselves to the culture war without being asked. They released a Lovecraft setting and spent at least one full page of the book excoriating the man whose work they'd taken to sell for money.
This confuses me. I mean I like Lovecrafts writings but does anybody actually think he was a lovely bloke? I don't see the massive doublethink here unless you're angry about people making money of a racist. Damn those awfule people.
Firstly, why even mention his views? Just make a scary monster book.
If you are going to mention him, a one sentence disclaimer gives you CYA protection. Writing an extensive bit taking a dump on the man whose work you're making money from is both petty and hypocritical. It's like the people who love Harry Potter, but can't mention the series without lambasting the authoress.
If Mein Kampf could sell millions of dollars worth of games, these turds would happily produce them, while holding their snoots high in the air.
For my own personal opinion, H.P.L. was a disturbed man, whose father was institutionalized, leaving him to be raised by a neurotic mother (who was later institutionalized.) He wasn't a racist so much as he was raised to think everyone but a Rhode Island WASP was some kind of sub-human mud-person. It went well beyond race, he thought the Welsh were Untermensch for Christ sakes.
He was a pitiable basket case, but the demons running around in his head resulted in works of fiction that have influenced ALL 20th century horror to a small or greater degree. If someone is too baby-brained to separate art from artist, maybe they shouldn't make a buck off of said artist?
Quote from: tenbones on January 17, 2023, 02:40:04 PM
Quote from: Bruwulf on January 16, 2023, 04:21:57 PM
Quote from: Brad on January 16, 2023, 04:13:01 PM
What's wrong with Palladium? Kevin Siembieda might have issues running a business, but he doesn't actively despise anyone who buys his games.
No, he just hates his writers. Because they all suffer from the crime of "Not being Kevin Seimbieda" as far as I can tell.
I hate going through the older books and seeing Kevin talk about "This book started as a great idea by <X> but when I got the manuscript, I had to tell <X> it wasn't up to Palladium Standards(tm), so I cracked my knuckles and wrote it myself. And finally, with great fanfare... HERE IT IS!"
Additionally he sued #WotC for publishing a compatible product called The Primal Order, which forced the latter to form a separate LLC and create an entirely new product called Magic: The Gathering.
Palladium books. It's been described as seeing CEO Kevin Seimbeida and wanting to run up to him to give him a big hug for his great games, then punching him for how he writes his confusing rules.
For example. Fantasy. People like knights or soldiers use arm shields. His book has a section in it for equipment. Where do you find the stats & costs for big and small wood or iron shields? That's right, it's in the description of the shield proficiency skill in the skills section of the book. Oh, and this is 1st edition, so 2nd edition fixes that, right? Nope. It's a tradition now, so 2nd edition also lists shield stats in the skill to use shields, and nowhere in the book's equipment section are shield costs or stats mentioned.
And that's not even saying things like how Palladium combat rules are always slightly different depending on how old or new each core rulebook is. It's like they play test new combat rules with each game that comes out.
That's annoying, but in reality I still say go buy those games. They're great fun. Just don't be afraid to come to this forum and ask for help clarifying rules. We all have been there. We will help.
Better to just mine the books for ideas, then use... practically any other system. If it's good enough for Kevin, it's good enough for me, right?
(The joke being, for those that don't know: Kevin famously barely uses his own system when he runs games at cons or for friends. His own personal system is basically unrecognizable as the published Palladium system)
Quote from: Garry G on January 29, 2023, 02:13:11 PM
Quote from: Valatar on January 16, 2023, 11:54:00 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on January 16, 2023, 06:07:49 PM
what's the deal with evil hat?
They invited themselves to the culture war without being asked. They released a Lovecraft setting and spent at least one full page of the book excoriating the man whose work they'd taken to sell for money.
This confuses me. I mean I like Lovecrafts writings but does anybody actually think he was a lovely bloke? I don't see the massive doublethink here unless you're angry about people making money of a racist. Damn those awfule people.
It's a little thing called
hypocrisy. It obviously doesn't bother you, but most people take a dim view of it. This Evil Hat asshole had choices; he didn't have to use Lovecraft's work to make a game. If he wanted to make a horror game he could have made a generic one, like Chill. Or if he just HAD to use some IP, he could have based a game on the horror writings of his fellow libtard Stephen King. But that would have required expensive licensing fees, whereas Lovecraft's work is in the public domain, so this cheap motherfucker just decided to steal somebody else's ideas and then act like his hand was forced or something. Like all his loathesome ilk, what few principles he may have end where his wallet begins.
Quote from: I on January 30, 2023, 12:12:40 PM
It's a little thing called hypocrisy. It obviously doesn't bother you, but most people take a dim view of it. This Evil Hat asshole had choices; he didn't have to use Lovecraft's work to make a game. If he wanted to make a horror game he could have made a generic one, like Chill. Or if he just HAD to use some IP, he could have based a game on the horror writings of his fellow libtard Stephen King. But that would have required expensive licensing fees, whereas Lovecraft's work is in the public domain, so this cheap motherfucker just decided to steal somebody else's ideas and then act like his hand was forced or something.
I haven't read the Evil Hat stuff on Lovecraft, but it isn't inherently hypocritical to say both:
(1) H.P. Lovecraft was exceptionally racist, even more than typical for his time,
(2) H.P. Lovecraft was a genius author and visionary,
There's no contradiction here. People can have bad moral and ethical values, and yet still have other strengths.
I've played and run lots of Lovecraft-based games, and I agree with both of those. One can acknowledge his faults as a person while still acknowledging the excellence of his writing.
But if you spend whole page to VS against HPL then it is hipocrytical
Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 08:26:15 PMOne can acknowledge his faults as a person while still acknowledging the excellence of his writing.
Except they don't. Just like with Rowling, they want to enjoy the material, while shitting on the creator, and excising the creator from the work, like it spontaneously appeared from the void.
They wouldn't even acknowledge the creators created the work, if they didn't need their two minutes of hate, to signal to other wokists not to attack them.
Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 08:26:15 PMThere's no contradiction here. People can have bad moral and ethical values, and yet still have other strengths.
Lovecraft wouldn't have written his fiction if he wasn't a paranoid, racist, and closeminded man (with a loose grasp of the science of the time). This isn't a "puppy kicker develops a cure for cancer on the side", where you can view the person poorly and respect the work.
This is a "Puppy kicker develops a cure for cancer: it's kicking puppies". Then using the cure he developed, while sneering about it. Don't take it if you think it's unethical. Develop a new one.
Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 08:26:15 PM
Quote from: I on January 30, 2023, 12:12:40 PM
It's a little thing called hypocrisy. It obviously doesn't bother you, but most people take a dim view of it. This Evil Hat asshole had choices; he didn't have to use Lovecraft's work to make a game. If he wanted to make a horror game he could have made a generic one, like Chill. Or if he just HAD to use some IP, he could have based a game on the horror writings of his fellow libtard Stephen King. But that would have required expensive licensing fees, whereas Lovecraft's work is in the public domain, so this cheap motherfucker just decided to steal somebody else's ideas and then act like his hand was forced or something.
I haven't read the Evil Hat stuff on Lovecraft, but it isn't inherently hypocritical to say both:
(1) H.P. Lovecraft was exceptionally racist, even more than typical for his time,
(2) H.P. Lovecraft was a genius author and visionary,
There's no contradiction here. People can have bad moral and ethical values, and yet still have other strengths.
I've played and run lots of Lovecraft-based games, and I agree with both of those. One can acknowledge his faults as a person while still acknowledging the excellence of his writing.
It's not hypocritical to say it. It's hypocritical to MAKE MONEY off of it. If he thinks Lovecraft is so bad, why is he encouraging people to read Lovecraft's work? I mainly got into Lovecraft because of the Call of Cthulhu game, not the other way around. For example, I previously mentioned a Stephen King roleplaying game. Actually not a bad idea. But even if I were rich enough to afford the license to use his IP (and could get it for cheap enough to feasibly still make a profit, which isn't likely), got his permission, and was talented enough to write such a game, I still wouldn't do it. You know why? Because I hate the liberal asshole that is Stephen King and wouldn't want to encourage sales of his books or promote him in any way.
Similar to your opinion of Lovecraft, I simultaneously think King is a great writer while also being a shit of a human being. The difference in me and Evil Hat, or me and you, is that my standards wouldn't permit me to make money off of this situation, whereas you and your kind, having no standards but double ones, don't see a problem here.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 30, 2023, 10:23:07 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 08:26:15 PMThere's no contradiction here. People can have bad moral and ethical values, and yet still have other strengths.
Lovecraft wouldn't have written his fiction if he wasn't a paranoid, racist, and closeminded man (with a loose grasp of the science of the time). This isn't a "puppy kicker develops a cure for cancer on the side", where you can view the person poorly and respect the work.
This is a "Puppy kicker develops a cure for cancer: it's kicking puppies". Then using the cure he developed, while sneering about it. Don't take it if you think it's unethical. Develop a new one.
This is one of the best posts I've read on a forum LOL!
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 30, 2023, 10:23:07 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 08:26:15 PMThere's no contradiction here. People can have bad moral and ethical values, and yet still have other strengths.
Lovecraft wouldn't have written his fiction if he wasn't a paranoid, racist, and closeminded man (with a loose grasp of the science of the time). This isn't a "puppy kicker develops a cure for cancer on the side", where you can view the person poorly and respect the work.
This is a "Puppy kicker develops a cure for cancer: it's kicking puppies". Then using the cure he developed, while sneering about it. Don't take it if you think it's unethical. Develop a new one.
If Lovecraft was a living author making a percentage, then I could understand boycotting Lovecraft to deny him a percentage. But given that his works are in the public domain, I think it's ridiculous to demand that anyone who condemns his racism also boycott his works.
I despise this bowdlerization and sanitization of history, saying that one needs to put on blinders and not be exposed to anything objectionable. History has objectionable things. Bad people can create great works. And it is foolish to deny their existence and refuse to acknowledge them.
I encouraged my son to read Lovecraft, because he's a great writer and was hugely influential. However, I also told him that Lovecraft was racist as fuck, because that is the truth and an important part of him and his works.
Shrieking Banshee, I agree with you that Lovecraft's paranoia and racism were integral to his passion for writing, and show up throughout his stories. On the other hand, his talent wasn't because of that. His talent meant that he could express his feelings with shocking clarity. If writing about Lovecraft, I think all that would be important to say. Likewise, if someone had a book based on Vincent Van Gogh, I'd expect writing about his self-destructive urges, because they were important to understanding him and his work.
When do the Marxists finally unperson Lovecraft? Is it after they milk his works for every single nickle they can? Do they rename him Hatedestroy because he's "racist as fuck"?
The hand-wringing is laughable and 100% expected. God forbid you read an author who is literally a product of his time and not care about his personal beliefs that he doesn't profess in great detail in some sort of preface to all his works...
Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2023, 02:45:55 AM
If Lovecraft was a living author making a percentage, then I could understand boycotting Lovecraft to deny him a percentage. But given that his works are in the public domain, I think it's ridiculous to demand that anyone who condemns his racism also boycott his works.
I despise this bowdlerization and sanitization of history, saying that one needs to put on blinders and not be exposed to anything objectionable. History has objectionable things. Bad people can create great works. And it is foolish to deny their existence and refuse to acknowledge them.
In other words, it's not that you have a problem enjoying the works of bad people, even profiting off them, you just don't think bad people should be able to profit from their own labors.
Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2023, 02:45:55 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 30, 2023, 10:23:07 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 08:26:15 PMThere's no contradiction here. People can have bad moral and ethical values, and yet still have other strengths.
Lovecraft wouldn't have written his fiction if he wasn't a paranoid, racist, and closeminded man (with a loose grasp of the science of the time). This isn't a "puppy kicker develops a cure for cancer on the side", where you can view the person poorly and respect the work.
This is a "Puppy kicker develops a cure for cancer: it's kicking puppies". Then using the cure he developed, while sneering about it. Don't take it if you think it's unethical. Develop a new one.
If Lovecraft was a living author making a percentage, then I could understand boycotting Lovecraft to deny him a percentage. But given that his works are in the public domain, I think it's ridiculous to demand that anyone who condemns his racism also boycott his works.
I despise this bowdlerization and sanitization of history, saying that one needs to put on blinders and not be exposed to anything objectionable. History has objectionable things. Bad people can create great works. And it is foolish to deny their existence and refuse to acknowledge them.
I encouraged my son to read Lovecraft, because he's a great writer and was hugely influential. However, I also told him that Lovecraft was racist as fuck, because that is the truth and an important part of him and his works.
Shrieking Banshee, I agree with you that Lovecraft's paranoia and racism were integral to his passion for writing, and show up throughout his stories. On the other hand, his talent wasn't because of that. His talent meant that he could express his feelings with shocking clarity. If writing about Lovecraft, I think all that would be important to say. Likewise, if someone had a book based on Vincent Van Gogh, I'd expect writing about his self-destructive urges, because they were important to understanding him and his work.
Lovecraft may not make any money off of his stuff, but by making a game based on his work you're encouraging people to read his work and therefore be exposed to his ideas. I mean, your son now may one day give his cat a politically incorrect name! Oh, the horror! Oh, and nice going, lecturing your kid on what opinions to form while reading Lovecraft, instead of just handing him the book and letting him form his own ideas. That would be like handing my kid some Stephen King and saying, "Son, this guy's a great horror writer, but you're not allowed to agree with any of his ideas like (a) all Christians are evil, (b) the U.S. government is bad and out to get you, but only when it's run by Republicans, Democrats are OK, and (c) there's no such thing as a bad convict, they're all good people wrongly convicted of crimes and oppressed by a conservative fascist system." I will give you credit for allowing your kid to read Lovecraft though; most liberals wouldn't even do that.
Quote from: Brad on January 31, 2023, 06:08:06 AM
When do the Marxists finally unperson Lovecraft? Is it after they milk his works for every single nickle they can? Do they rename him Hatedestroy because he's "racist as fuck"?
The hand-wringing is laughable and 100% expected. God forbid you read an author who is literally a product of his time and not care about his personal beliefs that he doesn't profess in great detail in some sort of preface to all his works...
That... over-simplifies it. To be fair to the other side for a moment, Lovecraft was not "a product of his time". Or, at least, he was not
only a product of his time. He was a product of his time, his peculiar upbringing, and possibly his own mental demons. He was known to be notably xenophobic even by his contemporaries. In the same way we shouldn't try to memory hole him for wrongthink or something, we shouldn't try to soft-sell his foibles. Lovecraft was an odd duck.
Twain is "a product of his time" when he has a character known as "Nigger Jim". Tolkien was a "product of his time" for not having a suitably progressive cast of characters... And yes, I vomited in my mouth a little writing that. But Lovecraft... went a little beyond things like that.
Quote from: I on January 31, 2023, 11:33:01 AMThat would be like handing my kid some Stephen King and saying, "Son, this guy's a great horror writer, but you're not allowed to agree with any of his ideas like (a) all Christians are evil, (b) the U.S. government is bad and out to get you, but only when it's run by Republicans, Democrats are OK, and (c) there's no such thing as a bad convict, they're all good people wrongly convicted of crimes and oppressed by a conservative fascist system."
I would be far more concerned that your kid would grow up to think being a hack writer was okay.
I'm a little late in replying seeing as I brought it up, but yes, my issue is the double-standard at play. If you think that someone is such an awful human that his corpse should be dug up and paraded through the streets before being strung up as a pinata for black children, you should not be engaging in a financial endeavor based off of that person's work. Nobody remotely sane could ever say that Lovecraft was not racist; you can get into the weeds about how racist compared to general 1920s people, or how his mental illnesses directly led to the work he produced, but dude was all about some racism, so if you're inclined to sob about it while flagellating yourself in a horse hair shirt, maybe write your game about someone else's stuff. Don't try to have your cake and eat it too.
Quote from: I on January 31, 2023, 11:33:01 AM
Lovecraft may not make any money off of his stuff, but by making a game based on his work you're encouraging people to read his work and therefore be exposed to his ideas. I mean, your son now may one day give his cat a politically incorrect name! Oh, the horror!
You might be full of hand-wringing horror at the idea of people being exposed to different ideas, but I think it's a positive.
Quote from: I on January 31, 2023, 11:33:01 AM
Oh, and nice going, lecturing your kid on what opinions to form while reading Lovecraft, instead of just handing him the book and letting him form his own ideas. That would be like handing my kid some Stephen King and saying, "Son, this guy's a great horror writer, but you're not allowed to agree with any of his ideas like (a) all Christians are evil, (b) the U.S. government is bad and out to get you, but only when it's run by Republicans, Democrats are OK, and (c) there's no such thing as a bad convict, they're all good people wrongly convicted of crimes and oppressed by a conservative fascist system." I will give you credit for allowing your kid to read Lovecraft though; most liberals wouldn't even do that.
Do you actually disagree that Lovecraft was racist? I don't consider that to be imposing an opinion. It's like saying that Orwell was anti-totalitarian or that Upton Sinclair was socialist. It's completely obvious from any study of the author. If I hadn't said that, then my son would likely have come back to me saying "Why did you recommend to me these racist stories?"
Quote from: Brad on January 31, 2023, 06:08:06 AM
The hand-wringing is laughable and 100% expected. God forbid you read an author who is literally a product of his time and not care about his personal beliefs that he doesn't profess in great detail in some sort of preface to all his works...
Saying he is "literally a product of his times" is completely meaningless, unless you actually believe that other authors were literal time travelers. Every author is a product of their times. And yes, for classic authors, I consider it normal to read some about their life and beliefs. Nearly every literary book has an introduction that describes the author.
I find sanctimony to be off-putting and, in the case of Evil Hat, hypocritical and hostile.
You want to make a game based off Lovecraft's work, just do it. Don't shame your readers or lecture them on the proper way to enjoy it. As someone who owns a few Lovecraft story collections and board games, I can say that nobody shames their own customers except for looney RPG authors.
Include a short bio of the guy and some commentary, but leave the judgement to the reader. This is common sense and what normal creators do.
I think part of the issue with Fate of Cthulhu is that the Lovecraft connection feels exploitative in another way, based on the rumor that they just grafted the Mythos elements on to their original 'Terminator Fate' concept when they realized the license for the actual Terminator films was something they could never get. I haven't looked at the product itself, so I don't know if the actual product lives up to this, but this was definitely the impression among a segment of the audience.
Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2023, 12:13:55 PM
Saying he is "literally a product of his times" is completely meaningless, unless you actually believe that other authors were literal time travelers. Every author is a product of their times. And yes, for classic authors, I consider it normal to read some about their life and beliefs. Nearly every literary book has an introduction that describes the author.
If it's meaningless then why bother to care about pointing out his "racism"? Either people are from the time they are and shouldn't be judged by the obviously more enlightened modern individuals, or they're all just horrible bastards and we should ignore them for their sins.
Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2023, 12:13:55 PM
Quote from: I on January 31, 2023, 11:33:01 AM
Lovecraft may not make any money off of his stuff, but by making a game based on his work you're encouraging people to read his work and therefore be exposed to his ideas. I mean, your son now may one day give his cat a politically incorrect name! Oh, the horror!
You might be full of hand-wringing horror at the idea of people being exposed to different ideas, but I think it's a positive.
Quote from: I on January 31, 2023, 11:33:01 AM
Oh, and nice going, lecturing your kid on what opinions to form while reading Lovecraft, instead of just handing him the book and letting him form his own ideas. That would be like handing my kid some Stephen King and saying, "Son, this guy's a great horror writer, but you're not allowed to agree with any of his ideas like (a) all Christians are evil, (b) the U.S. government is bad and out to get you, but only when it's run by Republicans, Democrats are OK, and (c) there's no such thing as a bad convict, they're all good people wrongly convicted of crimes and oppressed by a conservative fascist system." I will give you credit for allowing your kid to read Lovecraft though; most liberals wouldn't even do that.
Do you actually disagree that Lovecraft was racist? I don't consider that to be imposing an opinion. It's like saying that Orwell was anti-totalitarian or that Upton Sinclair was socialist. It's completely obvious from any study of the author. If I hadn't said that, then my son would likely have come back to me saying "Why did you recommend to me these racist stories?"
Quote from: Brad on January 31, 2023, 06:08:06 AM
The hand-wringing is laughable and 100% expected. God forbid you read an author who is literally a product of his time and not care about his personal beliefs that he doesn't profess in great detail in some sort of preface to all his works...
Saying he is "literally a product of his times" is completely meaningless, unless you actually believe that other authors were literal time travelers. Every author is a product of their times. And yes, for classic authors, I consider it normal to read some about their life and beliefs. Nearly every literary book has an introduction that describes the author.
No, Lovecraft was a racist, and as usual you pulled that out of your ass while ignoring the point everyone here is making: It's hypocritical to make money off a guy you hate. And yes, as Bruwulf said, you think it's OK for everybody to make money off of a creator's ideas except the creator himself, if you personally deem the creator a bad person.
If I was an Orwell scholar and wanted to publish some newly edited/annotated/ whatever work of his, I might address his socialism somewhere in it (entirely appropriate) but I sure wouldn't preface the book with my personal manifesto about how much I hate socialism and socialists and go on a tirade against the guy.
Quote from: Valatar on January 31, 2023, 12:08:37 PM
I'm a little late in replying seeing as I brought it up, but yes, my issue is the double-standard at play. If you think that someone is such an awful human that his corpse should be dug up and paraded through the streets before being strung up as a pinata for black children, you should not be engaging in a financial endeavor based off of that person's work. Nobody remotely sane could ever say that Lovecraft was not racist; you can get into the weeds about how racist compared to general 1920s people, or how his mental illnesses directly led to the work he produced, but dude was all about some racism, so if you're inclined to sob about it while flagellating yourself in a horse hair shirt, maybe write your game about someone else's stuff.
You say (as bolded above) that no one remotely sane would say Lovecraft was not racist, but over the years, I've encountered lots of people who said exactly that. They declared they didn't see anything racist in his stories. In my experience, it's only in the last ten years or so that his racism has been widely acknowledged. Even now, in this thread, by saying he was racist, I've had various accusations like imposing my political views on my son.
I stand by my original assertion. It is not a double standard to (a) say that Lovecraft was racist, and (b) appreciate the quality of his writing - including developing based on it, and making money based on that development. I don't make money off it, but I've played and run plenty of Call of Cthulhu games while holding these opinions.
Quote from: I on January 31, 2023, 11:05:44 PM
No, Lovecraft was a racist, and as usual you pulled that out of your ass while ignoring the point everyone here is making: It's hypocritical to make money off a guy you hate. And yes, as Bruwulf said, you think it's OK for everybody to make money off of a creator's ideas except the creator himself, if you personally deem the creator a bad person.
If I was an Orwell scholar and wanted to publish some newly edited/annotated/ whatever work of his, I might address his socialism somewhere in it (entirely appropriate) but I sure wouldn't preface the book with my personal manifesto about how much I hate socialism and socialists and go on a tirade against the guy.
You might not like it, but it's not hypocritical. If someone holds the position "you can't make money off a person you hate" for others, but then makes money off someone they hate - that is hypocrisy. But it's possible to consistently say that making money off someone doesn't require liking the person.
For example, someone might be fine making money off the WotC's SRD even though they hate Wizards of the Coast. I'm fine with that. You don't have to like or approve WotC in order to make money off their IP.
Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2023, 11:21:33 PMYou say (as bolded above) that no one remotely sane would say Lovecraft was not racist, but over the years, I've encountered lots of people who said exactly that. They declared they didn't see anything racist in his stories.
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Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2023, 11:21:33 PM
I stand by my original assertion. It is not a double standard to (a) say that Lovecraft was racist, and (b) appreciate the quality of his writing - including developing based on it, and making money based on that development. I don't make money off it, but I've played and run plenty of Call of Cthulhu games while holding these opinions.
I disagree, because these same people would be lobbying extensively for, say, JK Rowling's utter cancellation and for her to die destitute in an alley somewhere, and would be utterly aghast at even the thought of licensing her property to make a game, lest she receive more money with which to open womens' shelters and rescue Afghan women from the Taliban. But now that the original creator is safely dead and they can steal his work for free money, well suddenly it's okay as long as they affirm how much they hated him in the process, while riding on the shoulders of his superior talent at the same time.
Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2023, 11:21:33 PM
You say (as bolded above) that no one remotely sane would say Lovecraft was not racist, but over the years, I've encountered lots of people who said exactly that. They declared they didn't see anything racist in his stories.
Yeah, I have a Penguin anthology of HPL Cthulu mythos stories I must have read around 30 years ago. I didn't notice any racism in them. I guess they may have been curated. I didn't know about his racism from playing 2e Call of Cthulu around 37-38 years ago when I was only 12-13 (I didn't know anything much about US culture at all back then). It was only being told about it maybe 10 years ago that I discovered it. It was easy enough to then confirm from reading some of his other stuff online, as well as reading about him. I remember reading about how RE Howard in his 1930s letters to HPL criticised his racism, especially his positive view of the Nazis.
Edit: Whether a Cthulu RPG should spend time talking about his racism, I don't know. I think personal attacks against the guy you're making money off feel in bad taste, and I dislike virtue signalling. But if explaining HPL helps the GM run a better game then it might have merit.
Quote from: S'mon on February 01, 2023, 03:02:21 AM
Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2023, 11:21:33 PM
You say (as bolded above) that no one remotely sane would say Lovecraft was not racist, but over the years, I've encountered lots of people who said exactly that. They declared they didn't see anything racist in his stories.
Yeah, I have a Penguin anthology of HPL Cthulu mythos stories I must have read around 30 years ago. I didn't notice any racism in them. I guess they may have been curated.
I'd have thought the subtext alone of most of his stories would be a hint. But as for The Call Of Cthulhu, Horror At Red Hook, Herbert West Reanimator, or The Haunter Of The Dark...well I don't know how they could curate out the casual racism/bigotry/fear of the foreign, without rewriting whole scenes.
And I say this as a fan of his work, with no axe to grind against the man.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 01, 2023, 04:08:16 AM
I'd have thought the subtext alone of most of his stories would be a hint. But as for The Call Of Cthulhu, Horror At Red Hook, Herbert West Reanimator, or The Haunter Of The Dark...well I don't know how they could curate out the casual racism/bigotry/fear of the foreign, without rewriting whole scenes.
And I say this as a fan of his work, with no axe to grind against the man.
Subtext really wasn't on my radar. The one thing I
did find weird was the trust in the benevolence of the US government!
Edit: I grew up in Northern Ireland in the 1980s. No other races so no racism. But Bigotry/Fear of the Other was very much part of the culture! When people around you are killing each other over religious differences within Christianity, the idea of machine gunning the diabolical swamp cult hardly seems strange.
How many IVSP (Internet Virtue Signal Points) do you think jhkim got from the posts in this thread? 50? 100? Wonder if he's saving up for the large plush tiger or perhaps a life-sized George Floyd doll.
Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2023, 11:21:33 PM
You might not like it, but it's not hypocritical. If someone holds the position "you can't make money off a person you hate" for others, but then makes money off someone they hate - that is hypocrisy. But it's possible to consistently say that making money off someone doesn't require liking the person.
For example, someone might be fine making money off the WotC's SRD even though they hate Wizards of the Coast. I'm fine with that. You don't have to like or approve WotC in order to make money off their IP.
Except that the same people who engage in hand-wringing about how awful the creator of their meal ticket is, are the same people who insist that the people who actually create those meal tickets have no right to make a living, because they disagree with their politics. If you don't want to call it hypocrisy, call it a moral failing. If you think the author and their works are so problematic, then
leave them alone. Invent your own property, or steal from someone you don't find fundamentally repulsive.
... or is it they don't
really give a shit? Could it be that all that hand-wringing is just performative? If so, we're back to hypocrisy.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 01, 2023, 04:08:16 AM
I'd have thought the subtext alone of most of his stories would be a hint. But as for The Call Of Cthulhu, Horror At Red Hook, Herbert West Reanimator, or The Haunter Of The Dark...well I don't know how they could curate out the casual racism/bigotry/fear of the foreign, without rewriting whole scenes.
Eh. Most people don't read for subtext. And not all of Lovecraft's stories make his racism explicit. Some are worst than others, and some you really have to read to find any.
The Music of Eric Zann is one of my favorite stories of his, for example, and I don't think there's any racism at all in there.
But yeah, then there are
other stories.
Quote from: Omega on January 25, 2023, 02:54:54 PM
Worst companies?
Chaosium: Went off the woke end and now has stepped up the game to internet bully as well. Used to be a pretty decent company. But they also jumped on the edition treadmill craze. This was honestly the last company I expected to see start threatening people. WTF.
When/where did this happen? I know they have been slipping into the woke cesspool, but threatening people?
As a fan of RuneQuest since 1981, this saddens me to no end.
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 01, 2023, 10:36:38 AM
Except that the same people who engage in hand-wringing about how awful the creator of their meal ticket is, are the same people who insist that the people who actually create those meal tickets have no right to make a living, because they disagree with their politics. If you don't want to call it hypocrisy, call it a moral failing. If you think the author and their works are so problematic, then leave them alone. Invent your own property, or steal from someone you don't find fundamentally repulsive.
I don't think there is a moral obligation to respect any given creator in using their material. For example, people often mock and skewer a creator in a parody. Some parodies are loving and respectful, but they don't have to be. That also goes for other transformative works, too. For example, Lovecraft would despise the Harlem Unbound book for Call of Cthulhu, for example, given that to him it's all about n***ers as protagonists. But it's not immoral for author Chris Spivey to do so. I think he's pretty on-point for doing it.
The same goes for conservative takes on liberal material. For example, Geekybugle recently suggested:
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 20, 2023, 12:08:44 AM
Exactly, but it would be the funniest thing if someone were to take them at their word and using ONLY the mechanics published "Nazi Vixens from the Moon the ttrpg" and since they are using the mechanics listed: "Mechanics CC By Wizards of the Coast".
There's nothing unethical or immoral about using WotC's CC material in a product WotC would hate.
Quote from: jhkim on February 01, 2023, 07:27:28 PM
There's nothing unethical or immoral about using WotC's CC material in a product WotC would hate.
Stop conflating legality with moral and ethical concerns. This bending of concepts to match your imaginary view of reality is quite annoying. It is LITERALLY a dick move to do such things; i.e. unethical, and possibly immoral if you go too far. Parody and satire are definitely legal, but it's fucking ludicrous to make blanket statements that it's not wrong to so certain stuff just because you're protected by the law.
Quote from: jhkim on February 01, 2023, 07:27:28 PM
I don't think there is a moral obligation to respect any given creator in using their material. For example, people often mock and skewer a creator in a parody. Some parodies are loving and respectful, but they don't have to be. That also goes for other transformative works, too. For example, Lovecraft would despise the Harlem Unbound book for Call of Cthulhu, for example, given that to him it's all about n***ers as protagonists. But it's not immoral for author Chris Spivey to do so. I think he's pretty on-point for doing it.
Okay, first, I'm not talking about "respecting" Lovecraft.
Second, lets not try this particular dodge, shall we? Commentary, satire and criticism are not what we're talking about here. This is not someone writing a scholarly paper about Lovecraft's xenophobia and racism, this is not someone making a web comic where they portray Lovecraft as a cartoonishly bumbling racist parody of himself, we're not talking anything like that. We're talking about someone taking the original IP of someone else that they claim to find repugnant, and going "Hey, this guy is a total piece of shit, but heres my fanfic based on his work, now pay me for it."
Quote from: jhkim on February 01, 2023, 07:27:28 PMThere's nothing unethical or immoral about using WotC's CC material in a product WotC would hate.
I'm not concerned with what Lovecraft would have wanted. He's dead, I don't care. What annoys me is that people will, with one hand, say "Lovecraft was a HyperSuperRacist, and he's awful, and his works are full of racism", and then with the other say, "So lets monetize the shit out of it and regurgitate it to as many people as possible to keep his racist legacy alive!" Either you care, or it's performative virtue signaling .
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 30, 2023, 10:23:07 PM
Lovecraft wouldn't have written his fiction if he wasn't a paranoid, racist, and closeminded man (with a loose grasp of the science of the time). This isn't a "puppy kicker develops a cure for cancer on the side", where you can view the person poorly and respect the work.
This is a "Puppy kicker develops a cure for cancer: it's kicking puppies". Then using the cure he developed, while sneering about it. Don't take it if you think it's unethical. Develop a new one.
A very apt analogy.
Lovecraft wasn't just racist, but xenophobic, and that phobia is foundational to his work. Without it you just have weird monsters devoid of the existential gravatas they embody. You simply cannot be Lovecraftian without 'otherness'.
Yup. And as what we call Art means something thats made with hate and fear can still have value gained from it.
Stuff like Innsmouth is a great metaphors of a fear of alienation and change (which contrary to pop culture isn't always good). And then one day you look yourself in the mirror and your not even the person you thought you where anymore.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on February 01, 2023, 09:24:44 PM
Lovecraft wasn't just racist, but xenophobic, and that phobia is foundational to his work. Without it you just have weird monsters devoid of the existential gravatas they embody. You simply cannot be Lovecraftian without 'otherness'.
I agree, but that otherness doesn't have to be drawn along the same racial lines that Lovecraft had. I've played and run a lot of Call of Cthulhu games that ran directly counter to Lovecraft's racial thinking. He even had the self-awareness to question that in himself, like how "The Rats in the Walls" made English heritage into horrific monstrosity instead of it coming just from darker races. His horrors were often linked to other races, like the white ape, the Pacific Islanders, and more that he considered other. But he also looked at the dark side of himself and his peers.
I greatly enjoyed GMing an adaptation of John Tynes' campaign module
The Golden Dawn, because it reverses a lot of standard CoC tropes - where the PCs are prospective members of what is often considered a cult, and the horrors are from English heritage. And it does so in a way that is at once Lovecraftian but also questioning his take on things.
The two choices aren't "keep on promoting Lovecraft's stories exactly as they were" or "forget Lovecraft ever existed". You can have Lovecraftian stories that run counter to his racist values.
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 01, 2023, 09:18:35 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 01, 2023, 07:27:28 PMThere's nothing unethical or immoral about using WotC's CC material in a product WotC would hate.
I'm not concerned with what Lovecraft would have wanted. He's dead, I don't care. What annoys me is that people will, with one hand, say "Lovecraft was a HyperSuperRacist, and he's awful, and his works are full of racism", and then with the other say, "So lets monetize the shit out of it and regurgitate it to as many people as possible to keep his racist legacy alive!" Either you care, or it's performative virtue signaling .
Your assumption here is that anyone who cares must want Lovecraft forgotten, but that isn't what everyone wants. Someone can want Lovecraft remembered, but remembered for what he was - and when running RPGs, don't run them in a way that maintains his racism.
Quote from: jhkim on February 02, 2023, 01:52:21 AM
Someone can want Lovecraft remembered, but remembered for what he was - and when running RPGs, don't run them in a way that maintains his racism.
I want BLM remembered for what they are -- a domestic terrorist organization that burnt down half the country in 2020, caused billions of dollars worth of damage (mostly to innocent small business owners), and murdered dozens of people. You can remember BLM without celebrating what they are, instead of trumpeting their supposed virtues with a big banner hanging from your church. Don't remember them like that, in a way that maintains their racism.
Remind me again how Lovecraft using a few naughty words in his fiction, and people using his fiction as a basis for games, is bad while a church promoting murderous racist terrorist groups in real life is good?
Quote from: jhkim on February 02, 2023, 01:52:21 AMI agree, but that otherness doesn't have to be drawn along the same racial lines that Lovecraft had. I've played and run a lot of Call of Cthulhu games that ran directly counter to Lovecraft's racial thinking. He even had the self-awareness to question that in himself, like how "The Rats in the Walls" made English heritage into horrific monstrosity instead of it coming just from darker races. His horrors were often linked to other races, like the white ape, the Pacific Islanders, and more that he considered other. But he also looked at the dark side of himself and his peers.
That isn't the enlightened self-reflection you're presenting it as. Lovecraft was incredibly xenophobic, probably even more than he was "simply" racist. Lovecraft distrusted all the "other", whatever form they took, and "degenerate" roots and branches of WASP culture were just as alien to Lovecraft as anything else.
He was also an elitist wannabe-academic.
If you pay attention to his stories, the only people that ever really come across as "wholesome" people are academics and a few others that operate in a very similar, narrow band of society. The wealthy are morally degenerate, rural people are inbred and morally degenerate, cities are presented as dark, decaying places full of squalor and degeneracy, and so on.
I mean, just as an example... Lets take one of Lovecraft's more well-known racist descriptions of a black man, in Reanimator:
He was a loathsome, gorilla-like thing, with abnormally long arms which I could not help calling fore legs, and a face that conjured up thoughts of unspeakable Congo secrets and tom-tom poundings under an eerie moon. The body must have looked even worse in life—but the world holds many ugly things.That's... pretty bad. I think we can all agree. But, now lets look at his description of a (white) laborer:
It had been a sturdy and apparently unimaginative youth of wholesome plebeian type—large-framed, grey-eyed, and brown-haired—a sound animal without psychological subtleties, and probably having vital processes of the simplest and healthiest sort.That's better, certainly, no question, but... it's also not great. It comes across as very elitist and almost condescending. The narrator knows literally nothing about this body, except that it belonged to a laborer. From that, he concludes that he was "apparently unimaginative" and lacking "psychological subtleties". Even the descriptive term "plebian", while not precisely derogatory, is not - and was not, even at the time - generally something you called a person in polite conversation. The fact that he prefaces plebian with "wholesome" only turns it from simply possibly elitist to patronizing.
It's not really "counter" to his values to have the horror come from anglo-saxon sources - the aforementioned Rats In the Wall is a great example. It's not Lovecraft being out of character or introspective or something, he just viewed men of the past as alien too.
Quote from: jhkim on February 02, 2023, 01:52:21 AMYour assumption here is that anyone who cares must want Lovecraft forgotten, but that isn't what everyone wants. Someone can want Lovecraft remembered, but remembered for what he was - and when running RPGs, don't run them in a way that maintains his racism.
"Someone" can want that, but not cancel-culture-promoting wokeists.
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 02, 2023, 09:08:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on February 02, 2023, 01:52:21 AMYour assumption here is that anyone who cares must want Lovecraft forgotten, but that isn't what everyone wants. Someone can want Lovecraft remembered, but remembered for what he was - and when running RPGs, don't run them in a way that maintains his racism.
"Someone" can want that, but not cancel-culture-promoting wokeists.
Sure. I agree that there are wokists who want Lovecraft forgotten. The point is that someone detailing Lovecraft's racism isn't proof that they want Lovecraft forgotten.
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 02, 2023, 09:08:50 AM
If you pay attention to his stories, the only people that ever really come across as "wholesome" people are academics and a few others that operate in a very similar, narrow band of society. The wealthy are morally degenerate, rural people are inbred and morally degenerate, cities are presented as dark, decaying places full of squalor and degeneracy, and so on.
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 02, 2023, 09:08:50 AM
It's not really "counter" to his values to have the horror come from anglo-saxon sources - the aforementioned Rats In the Wall is a great example. It's not Lovecraft being out of character or introspective or something, he just viewed men of the past as alien too.
I didn't say that it's out of character, but I do think it is introspective. Past anglo-saxons are his own ancestors, so viewing them as alien is different than denigrating other races, given the importance he puts on genetics. I'd compare with, say, how young Robert E. Howard writes about white people in his story "The Last White Man". Howard explicit extols the superior genetics of white people. Lovecraft doesn't extol even modern anglo-saxon academics that way.
Lovecraft is more positive about cats and maybe penguins than any humans.
My point was that while Lovecraft was racist, I think it is possible to run games that are Lovecraftian without promoting racism.
Quote from: jhkim on February 02, 2023, 12:53:04 PMMy point was that while Lovecraft was racist, I think it is possible to run games that are Lovecraftian without promoting racism.
Once again with this bizarre patronizing view that is straight out of the modern left. Why do you even need to mention it's possible to run a game in his setting without being racist? It's not possible, it's an almost certainty.
Much like making convention going males sign promises not to sexually assault female con goers, it starts with a premise that bad things will happen without a heroic lefty swooping in to educate the lumpen proles.
It's a roleplaying game where people solve clues, and battle cosmic horrors. Just what exactly is going to even vaguely cause people to become racist? If your son picked up CoC without you giving him a purity lecture before hand, just how do you imagine it would radicalize him?
The fact is, without a disclaimer that Lovecraft was an awful old racist, people could easily roleplay in a setting based on his works
and never for an instant encounter racist ideology. You are installing your self as an unnecessary moral arbitrator because people like you do not trust others to make good decisions.
This is veering off topic. The question is not whether Lovecraft's personal racism is tolerable in the name of enjoying his fiction, but whether it's hypocritical for a company to take the public stance of deeming the man and his philosophy intolerable while still making money off products that, to at least some degree, require buying into that philosophy to work. (As I have said many times, if one assumes a vast, incomprehensible universe that cares nothing for our morality, there is absolutely no evidence to assume anti-racist beliefs in human equality must be right any more than religious beliefs in a benevolent God or an immortal soul must be right.)
For my own part, I think it is hypocritical, at least when done to the degree and manner that Evil Hat did it. I would normally give people benefit of the doubt for putting up whatever greengrocer's signs they felt necessary to avoid censure (q.v. Havel), but the viciousness with which the company staff treat those who object undermines that option for me.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 02, 2023, 02:55:59 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 02, 2023, 12:53:04 PMMy point was that while Lovecraft was racist, I think it is possible to run games that are Lovecraftian without promoting racism.
Once again with this bizarre patronizing view that is straight out of the modern left. Why do you even need to mention it's possible to run a game in his setting without being racist? It's not possible, it's an almost certainty.
I said that because I was arguing against Bruwulf's claim, which was this:
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 01, 2023, 09:18:35 PM
What annoys me is that people will, with one hand, say "Lovecraft was a HyperSuperRacist, and he's awful, and his works are full of racism", and then with the other say, "So lets monetize the shit out of it and regurgitate it to as many people as possible to keep his racist legacy alive!" Either you care, or it's performative virtue signaling.
This presumes that Lovecraftian RPGs "keep his racist legacy alive". If that isn't true, then these positions aren't contradictory.
In general, it seems I'm being argued against from two contradictory sides here. One side is that Lovecraft is so thoroughly racist that no one could possibly fail to notice his racism simply from his stories - and indeed that it is essential to his stories (as Anon Adderlan and Shrieking Banshee have agreed). Another side is that Lovecraft's racism amounts to nothing more than a few naughty words (as "I" puts it) and is largely irrelevant to Lovecraftian horror.
To me, these are both overstated. Lovecraft's racism is deeply set and is clear in many of his stories, but I think it is possible to have Lovecraftian horror that doesn't convey that racism.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 02, 2023, 02:55:59 PM
It's a roleplaying game where people solve clues, and battle cosmic horrors. Just what exactly is going to even vaguely cause people to become racist? If your son picked up CoC without you giving him a purity lecture before hand, just how do you imagine it would radicalize him?
The fact is, without a disclaimer that Lovecraft was an awful old racist, people could easily roleplay in a setting based on his works and never for an instant encounter racist ideology. You are installing your self as an unnecessary moral arbitrator because people like you do not trust others to make good decisions.
Calling Lovecraft racist isn't a moral lecture or judgement. It's a plain fact. Lovecraft is someone who spoke up to defend Hitler, and wrote poems about how n***ers are a blight on Creation. If one talks at any length describing Lovecraft, then it would be natural to describe his racism.
There are gamers who are interested in making their adventures genuinely Lovecraftian, but at the same time don't want to convey his views. I've had a number of discussions with other Call of Cthulhu gamers about how to balance between, and they've often appreciated advice and discussion. If you're not interested, then don't read it.
I'm seeing a pattern here:
Me & everyone else: Evil Hat is hypocritical for making money off a guy they hate, when they could have made another game altogether
jhkim: Lovecraft was racist!
Everyone else: Nobody argued that
jhkim: It's not hypocritical to think Lovecraft was a good writer and a racist
Everyone else: Again, nobody said that
jhkim: Did I mention that Lovecraft was racist?
Everyone else: *SIGH*
What's going on is these 'woke' people don't really believe it. They didn't care about any of those causes. They just liked Lovecraft.
Then because they were either incels or having very limited sex, they started bending over backwards trying to think of how to make the hobby more inclusive, because the only way they get any social contact at all is in a game session, so the only possibility they have to talk to women is if women play games.
So they invited feminists in. And they do whatever the feminists tell them to.
But they still want to play the games that they like, and read the stories they like.
There's nothing about justice or equality or anything like that going through their minds. It's very basic- "How can I play Call of Cthulhu and also get some pussy?"
Quote from: migo on February 03, 2023, 08:06:52 AM
What's going on is these 'woke' people don't really believe it. They didn't care about any of those causes. They just liked Lovecraft.
Then because they were either incels or having very limited sex, they started bending over backwards trying to think of how to make the hobby more inclusive, because the only way they get any social contact at all is in a game session, so the only possibility they have to talk to women is if women play games.
So they invited feminists in. And they do whatever the feminists tell them to.
But they still want to play the games that they like, and read the stories they like.
There's nothing about justice or equality or anything like that going through their minds. It's very basic- "How can I play Call of Cthulhu and also get some pussy?"
I think it's much simpler than that. Many SJW's are racists. They know it. So they become desperate to assume that everyone else is just as bad as they are, thus the projection. Throw in a few narcissists and cynical opportunists riding the train, and you get what we have now. Which is why there are so many candidates for Worst Rpg Company. Many of them are run by the same clique. It used to be that they wanted to keep this more or less hidden, which is why some of them could sometimes utilize whatever natural talent and imagination, constructive processes, etc. that they had to produce something. As the desperation rises and the environment coddles their own delusions, the ability to be productive atrophies.
That's why it's a race to the bottom, and hard to say who will hit it first.
That explains SJWs yes, but not gamers specifically. Most gamers aren't racist - or any kind of bigot - they're the most inclusive and accepting people you will find, who really just want to be accepted themselves and have friends (and sex, of course). That's what makes them so susceptible to the influence of SJWs. They believe if they just follow what is being preached to them, they'll have more friends (and benefits).
Quote from: migo on February 03, 2023, 08:06:52 AM
So they invited feminists in. And they do whatever the feminists tell them to.
They need to realise that sex with a feminist is worse than no sex. Or at very least, once you've had sex with a non-feminist, you are NEVER NEVER going to want sex with a feminist ever again. ;D
Quote from: I on February 03, 2023, 06:58:52 AM
I'm seeing a pattern here:
Me & everyone else: Evil Hat is hypocritical for making money off a guy they hate, when they could have made another game altogether
jhkim: Lovecraft was racist!
Everyone else: Nobody argued that
jhkim: It's not hypocritical to think Lovecraft was a good writer and a racist
Everyone else: Again, nobody said that
That's fair as far as it goes, but I would add in:
jhkim: It's not hypocritical to think Lovecraft was a good writer and a racist, and also play, game-master, and/or publish Lovecraft-based RPG material
Would you also agree with this?
Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 01:05:04 PM
That's fair as far as it goes, but I would add in:
jhkim: It's not hypocritical to think Lovecraft was a good writer and a racist, and also play, game-master, and/or publish Lovecraft-based RPG material
Would you also agree with this?
Yes, sure. I've never claimed Lovecraft wasn't a racist, he absolutely was.
However, I wouldn't engage in performative hand-wringing about it if I were publishing a game based on his works. At most I would acknowledge it briefly - literally like two sentences is all you need - and get on with it.
Because, first, it's not going to be relevant to my work - I'm not Lovecraft, I don't share his bigotry. And second, because I assume my audience are not ignorant idiots.
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 03, 2023, 01:08:21 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 01:05:04 PM
That's fair as far as it goes, but I would add in:
jhkim: It's not hypocritical to think Lovecraft was a good writer and a racist, and also play, game-master, and/or publish Lovecraft-based RPG material
Would you also agree with this?
Yes, sure. I've never claimed Lovecraft wasn't a racist, he absolutely was.
However, I wouldn't engage in performative hand-wringing about it if I were publishing a game based on his works. At most I would acknowledge it briefly - literally like two sentences is all you need - and get on with it.
Because, first, it's not going to be relevant to my work - I'm not Lovecraft, I don't share his bigotry. And second, because I assume my audience are not ignorant idiots.
I think a published RPG should assume that the audience is ignorant, though not that they are idiots. The audience might not know anything about Lovecraft and/or be new to role-playing. Anyway, all this back and forth has gotten me to go look up what is actually in Fate of Cthulhu. So here's the part about Lovecraft's racism:
QuoteFate of Cthulhu is a game that deals with many hard topics, including mental health, systemic abuses of power, and the deaths of huge portions of the human species. Make sure all the players are aware of these things and give enthusiastic consent before they begin playing.
Also—Howard Phillips Lovecraft was a racist and an anti-Semite.
There. We said it.
We could give a litany of examples, but they are easy to find with a simple Internet search. Look up the name of his cat, for instance (HPL was over-the-top, even for his time). Go ahead, we'll wait.
Now that we've gotten that issue out in the open, let us turn our attention to why we still find the Cthulhu mythos, of which he planted the seed, a fruitful garden in which to find stories. Lovecraft once said, "The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown." He filled that void of knowledge with his imagination, creating Old Ones and forbidden knowledge, strange religions and fantastical superstitions, threats to society and suspicion of what science might unlock. We can acknowledge the fear behind his imagination while also re-examining what came out of it.
The middle part is more than two sentences, but it seems to me that in principle it is still acknowledging the point briefly and then getting on with it, just as you say. The latter part is about what is good and interesting about his stories.
Ooo, can I be racist too?
How much Lovecraft and Howard do I need to read first?
The Left seems to love racism--it's all they ever talk about, it's all they every think of themselves, maybe I can join in?
Gonna get me some sweet, sweet Painter-Points for sure, spend them all at Beer Halls, yeeeeeaaaaahhhh...
Really should start another thread, but honestly I feel this discussion has been had before and there's little left to say which hasn't already.
Except...
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 02, 2023, 09:08:50 AM
He was also an elitist wannabe-academic.
If you pay attention to his stories, the only people that ever really come across as "wholesome" people are academics and a few others that operate in a very similar, narrow band of society. The wealthy are morally degenerate, rural people are inbred and morally degenerate, cities are presented as dark, decaying places full of squalor and degeneracy, and so on.
And by an astoundingly bizarre coincidence the Radical Left is
also full of elitist wannabe-academics who (except for the city part) make exactly the same conclusions.
Quote from: jhkim on February 02, 2023, 12:53:04 PM
My point was that while Lovecraft was racist, I think it is possible to run games that are Lovecraftian without promoting racism.
You forget we're dealing with a contingent that considers
all otherness to be a metaphor for racism. And their beliefs aren't even coherent here as they consider Orcs to be stand-ins for Blacks despite the former thinking and acting exactly like the
Fascists they claim to hate.
So no, it isn't, not as far as these folks are concerned. And they'll be more than happy to tell you why right before they cancel you.
Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 01:05:04 PM
Quote from: I on February 03, 2023, 06:58:52 AM
I'm seeing a pattern here:
Me & everyone else: Evil Hat is hypocritical for making money off a guy they hate, when they could have made another game altogether
jhkim: Lovecraft was racist!
Everyone else: Nobody argued that
jhkim: It's not hypocritical to think Lovecraft was a good writer and a racist
Everyone else: Again, nobody said that
That's fair as far as it goes, but I would add in:
jhkim: It's not hypocritical to think Lovecraft was a good writer and a racist, and also play, game-master, and/or publish Lovecraft-based RPG material
Would you also agree with this?
"jhkim: It's not hypocritical to...publish Lovecraft-based RPG material. Would you also agree with this?"
No I wouldn't. They are making money off someone they are shitting upon. If he is so deplorable stop mining his creative talent for your own benefit.
Newsflash - Lovecraft didn't live in 2023. Fuck 'em for the grifters they are.
Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 01:05:04 PM
Quote from: I on February 03, 2023, 06:58:52 AM
I'm seeing a pattern here:
Me & everyone else: Evil Hat is hypocritical for making money off a guy they hate, when they could have made another game altogether
jhkim: Lovecraft was racist!
Everyone else: Nobody argued that
jhkim: It's not hypocritical to think Lovecraft was a good writer and a racist
Everyone else: Again, nobody said that
That's fair as far as it goes, but I would add in:
jhkim: It's not hypocritical to think Lovecraft was a good writer and a racist, and also play, game-master, and/or publish Lovecraft-based RPG material
Would you also agree with this?
Yeah, I'd agree with it. It's just hardly relevant at all. So tell me: every time Martin Luther King, Jr. comes up in a conversation, do you insert "Of course, he routinely beat his wife and accepted funding from the American Communist party, which was in turn directly funded by the CCCP" ? Do you just randomly insert not-relevant-to-the conversation-at-hand bullshit into every conversation you have? Like, "It's possible to revere MLK as a civil rights leader while also acknowledging he stood to the side and laughed while his friend raped a woman." Or every time you hear somebody say the U.S. should have stayed out of Vietnam, you observe "Yes, but the North Vietnamese murdered 10,000 civilians in house-to-house massacres in Hue"? Somehow, I doubt that these conservative counter-points (and pretty irrelevant points, btw) ever make it into your arguments.
I think that, like most liberals, you're just absolutely obsessed with the topic of race and, Tourette's-like, you just can't help spouting off about it at all times and in every situation. By the way, Lovecraft was also a die-hard atheist and, by the end of his life, was thinking Socialism was the way to go. Shouldn't we bring up these two facts every time the man is mentioned? I've never seen you do it, not even once. It's possible to run a game based on his work without being an atheist or a socialist, you know.... Did you warn your kid before handing Lovecraft to him that Lovecraft was an atheist, and that worldview permeates his work far more than his views on race do? To be on guard as he reads, so that he doesn't become a godless Commie from being exposed to such ideas?
Finally, I think it's hilarious that some one who supports Burn Loot Murder, Inc. is criticizing somebody else over RACISM. Liberals are famously un-self aware, and man, you are the living proof of that.
You know what's funny is, I had no idea HPL was a racist until people on Twitter and now the RPG community felt the need to keep reminding me of that fact. I get it, he had racist views. He probably hated people of my ethnicity too. I don't care, I just know I like his stories and universe.
Quote from: Skullking on February 04, 2023, 05:59:28 AM
"jhkim: It's not hypocritical to...publish Lovecraft-based RPG material. Would you also agree with this?"
No I wouldn't. They are making money off someone they are shitting upon. If he is so deplorable stop mining his creative talent for your own benefit.
Newsflash - Lovecraft didn't live in 2023. Fuck 'em for the grifters they are.
The Freudo-Witch*-Left are probably just frustrated that conservatives et al. won't go all the way after cancelling the likes of Ezra Pound and T.S. Elliot for themselves;
so their only course of action now is to force everyone else into cancelling Lovecraft and Howard via guilt-by-association with Leftism, using their raw talent for social-abuse to maximize the effect.
Which is not totalitarian at all!--because they dearly care about the mental health and personal agency and consent of others as Leftists, so its all a-ok. We should really sincerely thank they/them for stepping in for our absolute inability to think for ourselves, and be in awe and wonder of all that they've learned from their BDSM sex-dungeon parades.
* Ask Rob ZombieQuote from: mudbanks on February 04, 2023, 09:18:29 AM
You know what's funny is, I had no idea HPL was a racist until people on Twitter and now the RPG community felt the need to keep reminding me of that fact. I get it, he had racist views. He probably hated people of my ethnicity too. I don't care, I just know I like his stories and universe.
Irish? ;D
Quote from: Brad on January 16, 2023, 04:13:01 PM
Quote from: migo on January 16, 2023, 01:36:54 PM
We shouldn't forget about Palladium.
What's wrong with Palladium? Kevin Siembieda might have issues running a business, but he doesn't actively despise anyone who buys his games.
It's not an evil thing. It's more of a hair pulling thing. Palladium should be better than it is. However, Kevin Seimbeida is a bit stubborn and won't fix some of the wonky or unclear rules.
It's not uncommon for Palladium players to not know how to correctly calculate their combat bonuses or even how the turn sequence plays out.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 04, 2023, 10:40:58 AM
It's not an evil thing. It's more of a hair pulling thing. Palladium should be better than it is. However, Kevin Seimbeida is a bit stubborn and won't fix some of the wonky or unclear rules.
It's not uncommon for Palladium players to not know how to correctly calculate their combat bonuses or even how the turn sequence plays out.
Again, not helped by the fact that Kevin himself apparently doesn't really use his own rules. But yeah, the system is a mess to begin with, and the books are horrifically badly organized. Rifts is one of those systems that every table is really going to be running their own version of it.
And I would argue some of Palladium's treatment of writers borders on "evil", at least by publisher standards.
Quote from: mudbanks on February 04, 2023, 09:18:29 AM
You know what's funny is, I had no idea HPL was a racist until people on Twitter and now the RPG community felt the need to keep reminding me of that fact. I get it, he had racist views. He probably hated people of my ethnicity too. I don't care, I just know I like his stories and universe.
So it works. You didn't know he was racist and now you do but you can still like the stories, everybody wins.
Quote from: I on February 04, 2023, 08:44:23 AM
I think that, like most liberals, you're just absolutely obsessed with the topic of race and, Tourette's-like, you just can't help spouting off about it at all times and in every situation. By the way, Lovecraft was also a die-hard atheist and, by the end of his life, was thinking Socialism was the way to go. Shouldn't we bring up these two facts every time the man is mentioned? I've never seen you do it, not even once. It's possible to run a game based on his work without being an atheist or a socialist, you know.... Did you warn your kid before handing Lovecraft to him that Lovecraft was an atheist, and that worldview permeates his work far more than his views on race do?
I think you have a skewed perspective here. When I look back over the past few weeks, here are the topics I started:
- Broad generic classes vs skill-based
- Using monsters from other cultures
- The draft OGL v1.2
- Acting in your local community
- Liberating the hobby from OGL 1.1
- Genres of D&D modules
I talk about RPG design, module design, copyright issues, my current D&D5E campaign, many of my past campaigns, and lots of other stuff. Within this thread, I commented on company ethics and the Terminator hook for Fate of Cthulhu at first. It was Valatar who brought up the topic of Lovecraft's racism - and Garry G and you commented on that subtopic before I did.
From my perspective, it seems like I'm posting on all sorts of topics - and you're only engaging with me on the topic of race. I'd be happy to talk to you about other topics, particularly here on the RPG forum.
As for introducing Lovecraft to my son, of course I mentioned other stuff like his atheism and nihilism. I did not mention his socialism because I don't think it is core to his character or writing. He only softened towards socialism in the last few years of his life, and even then, he was still strongly opposed to radical Marxism.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 04, 2023, 10:40:58 AM
It's not an evil thing. It's more of a hair pulling thing. Palladium should be better than it is. However, Kevin Seimbeida is a bit stubborn and won't fix some of the wonky or unclear rules.
It's not uncommon for Palladium players to not know how to correctly calculate their combat bonuses or even how the turn sequence plays out.
Well no argument there; I first learned how to play Palladium games with TMNT and it was not that straightforward, to say the least. However, I WILL say that my 12 year old self had far better patience and attention to detail than my 48 year old self, and saw no problem with the system whatsoever. But this could also be a function of having no money and spending every nickel made mowing yards to buy a new book, so you bet your ass I was going to learn the system.
Still, I think Palladium is okay as a company if you're comparing them to something like Evil Hat. KS might be a maniac but he actually likes roleplaying games and gamers, he wants people to have fun. I think that's the whole point.
Quote from: Garry G on February 04, 2023, 01:21:25 PM
So it works. You didn't know he was racist and now you do but you can still like the stories, everybody wins.
Ha! With that crazy crowd, there's no winning until everyone chants the same tune. Even me saying I like his stories and not caring about his views will get me cancelled in some circles because indifference allows evil to spread or some drivel like that.
Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 04, 2023, 09:20:05 AM
Irish? ;D
Nay, I'm the furthest from being Irish.
Quote from: mudbanks on February 04, 2023, 10:29:11 PMNay, I'm the furthest from being Irish.
Ah! Northern Irish.
;)
Quote from: Brad on February 04, 2023, 09:21:02 PM
Still, I think Palladium is okay as a company if you're comparing them to something like Evil Hat. KS might be a maniac but he actually likes roleplaying games and gamers, he wants people to have fun. I think that's the whole point.
I know I've sometimes came across as harsh when it comes to Palladium and Kevin, but ultimately it comes from a place of love, and maybe a bit of envy, and I'll absolutely agree with this. Him and his company are one of the last of the old guard, spiritually. They're... I'll borrow a not-perfectly-fitting quote from the movie Pirates of Silicon Valley:
"But then we were all nobodies, which was perfect for us... because all the respectable, straight-arrow guys were busy doing what they always do, which is be respectable. Which meant the rest of us could run around acting like crazies...which is what we did best."
Kevin and Palladium are just big enough fish that they can't vanish like a fart on the wind, and they succeed purely because they put out shit people want to buy, instead of focus testing and trying to offend the minimal amount of people and checking all the diversity boxes and spending the annual budget of Nigeria on advertising and shit. He is what we all wanted to be, growing up, with our fantasies of being a game designer... He basically has free reign to do whatever the hell he feels like.
Although I like to think I would be less of a dick to my writers.