World of Greyhawk Power of the Churches

Benoist · August 20, 2013, 12:13:27 PM

It would depend on the exact place/location in Greyhawk (respect for religious institutions would vary between the Bandit Kingdoms, Greyhawk itself, Pomarj and say, the Theocracy of the Pale, in my mind), but as others have said, at the end of the day I strongly urge you guys to not give a shit about "canon" as such: there should be no such thing as "canon" in a fictional sense in a roleplaying campaign. This is YOUR campaign world. The GM ought to be the one roleplaying the world, and therefore, the one answering this question for your particular campaign.

Lynn · August 20, 2013, 12:30:05 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;682803That's one of the big disconnects for most "medieval fantasy settings"; it seems that in a lot of D&D-worlds, Kings have the most power, wizard-groups second and churches a distant third. In some campaigns it can seem like they're just organizing bake sales and even the Thieves' guild is more important.

Yes, this is something I've found rather disagreeable, too.

A lot of D&D settings don't have a reincarnation / rebirth cosmology, but instead a "die and you go to..." one. Clerics really are the hotline to the gods, and so is the church. Often its extremely clear too, what happens when you die. Why isn't that motivational?

Clerics are also the dispensers of the best healing spells.

It seems to me that the church should be the #2 power.

S'mon · August 20, 2013, 02:09:24 PM

@OP - Greyhawk religion is not well defined, but we know there are theocracies like The Pale, Medegia, even Verbobonc, and the general vibe is more medievalesque than eg Forgotten Realms, so yes I'd say the GM was certainly well within his rights to present the church as very powerful. If it was me I'd be happy to play an "outlaw PCs vs the church" game if that's what they want, though.

Lynn · August 20, 2013, 06:08:47 PM

Quote from: estar;682986Historically while they had individual shrines and temple, etc. Polythesistic religion had just as firm grip on their cultures as the Catholic Church and Orthodox churches did on Medieval kingdoms. Religion is not just about the structure of church and hierarchy but also about the culture of worship. In many polytheistic cultures the king/overlord/emperor was a sacred position as well as a position of power.

That's it, right there. Religion is an integral part of culture, and modern sensibilities lead some designers and GMs to treat organized religion as something entirely separate or optional. Sure, you can transplant it. But it came from a culture somewhere.

Rincewind1 · August 20, 2013, 06:13:53 PM

Anyone who doubts the secular power of Pagan gods should remember why Socrates was officially sentenced to death, as well as that Romans weren't killing druids only because of the human sacrifices, but also because of the power they wielded over communities.

The one problem with D&D's presentation of gods was always to me - how the hell do the Evil Deities get worshippers? Why would anyone worship Cyric, for example? I admit that settings did somewhat try to explain that, but I always thought that either they should be granting simply more power to their priesthood/cultists (while usually, to keep the mechanical balance somewhat, they don't), or they should be enforced by sheer power.

The Traveller · August 20, 2013, 06:37:35 PM

Quote from: estar;683457Yes it can be handled in a clumsy manner. Just about any aspect of roleplaying can generate controversy. The trick to effectively incorporating religion into a game is to be aware of your player's interests and sensibility and abstract things accordingly.

Meh, I write what I write and do what I do. I have little time for 'transgressionist' wannabe Howard Sterns but I'm not about to be pushed around by the cause du jour or fundies either. When I build a setting it is an uncontrolled extension of my imagination, and people have literally dragged me off the street to play there. If a pervasive pantheon of pagan gods is a problem, go build a time machine and protest hair metal [not aimed at you Estar].

Ravenswing · August 22, 2013, 10:06:05 PM

Quote from: Rincewind1;683781The one problem with D&D's presentation of gods was always to me - how the hell do the Evil Deities get worshippers? Why would anyone worship Cyric, for example? I admit that settings did somewhat try to explain that, but I always thought that either they should be granting simply more power to their priesthood/cultists (while usually, to keep the mechanical balance somewhat, they don't), or they should be enforced by sheer power.

Well, there are one of four possible explanations, presuming you don't just dismiss the concept of D&D "Good" vs "Evil" as the arrant bullshit it is:

* Did Hitler think he was evil? Did Stalin? Pol Pot? Almost surely not. Just because we have an OOC system mechanic -- or just because the winners write the histories -- that proclaims someone "evil" doesn't mean that they think of themselves that way.

* The dark gods will have their due. Failure to worship them will bring their anger down on the land, something that has been proven time and time again. The people in the pews might be trembling with fear, but they come nonetheless. We all remember the last time people stayed away, don't we?

* They attract the losers, the misfits, the powerless, the people with nowhere else to go, those who crave vengeance. The dark gods are real, everyone knows that. If you can't beat them, worship at the altar of someone who can.

* Haven't we all seen decades worth of players commit all manner of bestial and violent acts, all in the ostensible name of "Lawful Good?" The light gods, they preach Good, and Truth, and Honor, and Love, but look at the depredations of their followers! Isn't it just a pack of lies after all? The dark gods, though ... sure, they might be "evil," and there might even be some justice to the charge, but at least they'll never lie to you. They're honest about who and what they are.

Bill · August 23, 2013, 11:24:48 AM

Quote from: Rincewind1;683781Anyone who doubts the secular power of Pagan gods should remember why Socrates was officially sentenced to death, as well as that Romans weren't killing druids only because of the human sacrifices, but also because of the power they wielded over communities.

The one problem with D&D's presentation of gods was always to me - how the hell do the Evil Deities get worshippers? Why would anyone worship Cyric, for example? I admit that settings did somewhat try to explain that, but I always thought that either they should be granting simply more power to their priesthood/cultists (while usually, to keep the mechanical balance somewhat, they don't), or they should be enforced by sheer power.

Ah Cyric. Possibly my least favorite deity ever.

Why is he a God? because he was the writers player character? That's my guess.

Cyric was a 2 bit evil thief. Hardly 'God of Evil' material.

But, there was a reason in the novels why someone would worship Cyric.

You see, Cyric knew he was too lame to warrant worshippers.

So he had a magic book made that forced anyone that read it to worship him.

No one would have otherwise

But as for why one would worship an evil god? I suppose if the god gave them actual power it might make sense.

danbuter · August 23, 2013, 11:36:47 AM

Quote from: Ravenswing;684639* The dark gods will have their due. Failure to worship them will bring their anger down on the land, something that has been proven time and time again. The people in the pews might be trembling with fear, but they come nonetheless. We all remember the last time people stayed away, don't we?

* They attract the losers, the misfits, the powerless, the people with nowhere else to go, those who crave vengeance. The dark gods are real, everyone knows that. If you can't beat them, worship at the altar of someone who can.

* Haven't we all seen decades worth of players commit all manner of bestial and violent acts, all in the ostensible name of "Lawful Good?" The light gods, they preach Good, and Truth, and Honor, and Love, but look at the depredations of their followers! Isn't it just a pack of lies after all? The dark gods, though ... sure, they might be "evil," and there might even be some justice to the charge, but at least they'll never lie to you. They're honest about who and what they are.

I like these reasons quite a bit. Just think of the stories of artists selling their souls to Satan for lifetime fame. If the evil gods obviously existed, like actually making appearances in the world, a whole lot more people would be doing this.