After doing everything the Wokists demanded, WoTC is told #dnd is still Racist because it doesn't allow flying halflings.
#dnd5e #OneDnD #OSR #ttrpg
This is a very relevant video right now. Politically, and to the hobby, of course. But it also kinda has relevance to some of what has recently been discussed even on this site regarding how races in gaming should be mechanically. There are benefits to boundaries and limitations, as well as unique bonuses and specializations, and yes even "stereotypical" archetypes too.
More to the point societally, yes, we should not negotiate with those who want to destroy our hobby, our society and our lives. And this is something we need to understand when dealing with the woke.
I was just discussing this kind of thing IRL with a friend, too. And this video I think has helped me articulate better what I was trying to say and express.
Odysee (https://odysee.com/@RPGPundit:0/wokists-want-grey-goo-d-d-races:a)link: https://odysee.com/@RPGPundit:0/wokists-want-grey-goo-d-d-races:a
This was a good one. While it's been clear for awhile for people who've been paying attention that caving to these irrational demands won't get anywhere, WotC has crossed the Rubicon with OneDnD and there's still no signs of these nutjobs being satisfied. It's clear the goal is to remove anything that could be said to be characteristic of a race, and therefore remove any purpose for races existing (either mechanically, or aesthetically) whatsoever.
I can help but wonder if these people would just be happier playing a game with point-buy system. (I'm joking, these people will never be happy, they just want to make everyone else as miserable as them)
I wonder, really if these SJW's are making any difference. My group is unaware of this crap going on and no other gamers I speak to are aware either.
I wonder if its a big deal online, but to actual gamers (those of us who are actually playing games) whether it actually has an effect.
Weren't the SJW crowd just a few years ago chanting, "Our strength is in our diversity"???
Quote from: GhostNinja on September 28, 2022, 01:58:06 PM
I wonder, really if these SJW's are making any difference. My group is unaware of this crap going on and no other gamers I speak to are aware either.
I wonder if its a big deal online, but to actual gamers (those of us who are actually playing games) whether it actually has an effect.
Well, the 30-odd people that were involved in one way or another in my 5E games are now aware, since I told them I would no longer be running any WotC products, and why.
These thing putter along with no apparent motion or gravity--until the people involved come to their senses or they don't. WotC can get away with a lot of crap. They can't get away with an infinite amount of crap. We'll see if they break it off before then.
Quote from: GhostNinja on September 28, 2022, 01:58:06 PM
I wonder, really if these SJW's are making any difference. My group is unaware of this crap going on and no other gamers I speak to are aware either.
I wonder if its a big deal online, but to actual gamers (those of us who are actually playing games) whether it actually has an effect.
I assure you that unfortunately it is reflected in the products such corporations produce, the ideologies nested therein, and the mechanics they design and that are available for play. It also determines what ads go out, who feels ideologically welcome or unwelcome in the hobby, and at events and the like, etcetera. We game mostly within our bubbles, but trust me when I say even there it can have an impact. To say nothing of broader societal consequences and contexts.
Quote from: GhostNinja on September 28, 2022, 01:58:06 PM
I wonder, really if these SJW's are making any difference. My group is unaware of this crap going on and no other gamers I speak to are aware either.
I wonder if its a big deal online, but to actual gamers (those of us who are actually playing games) whether it actually has an effect.
I could be wrong but I think it is mostly DMs that spend time on blogs and forums and such.
Quote from: Ruprecht on September 28, 2022, 02:27:00 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on September 28, 2022, 01:58:06 PM
I wonder, really if these SJW's are making any difference. My group is unaware of this crap going on and no other gamers I speak to are aware either.
I wonder if its a big deal online, but to actual gamers (those of us who are actually playing games) whether it actually has an effect.
I could be wrong but I think it is mostly DMs that spend time on blogs and forums and such.
And writers.
This isn't as cut and dry as, "Grrr. Woke."
Pundit lays out a good case for racial modifiers reinforcing archetypes. Dwarves are warriors, elves are wizards and druids, halflings are rogues, and so forth. This is a decision you can make, and it's a fine decision, but it does have other ramifications for your game.
The current edition of D&D has a problem with in-game demographics. It's one thing if 80% of your dwarves are fighters. That's using races to play to an archetype for flavor. If 80% of your fighters are dwarves, maybe you want to rethink how your races are designed. It seems to me like that's where 5E is at right now. Nobody plays humans, because why would you? But also, nobody plays dwarf fighters, all the fighters are half-orcs or dragonborn. The elves are all rangers and rogues, no elf wizards or druids. The wizards are all gnomes, the warlocks are all tieflings. That extra +1 bonus you get to your rolls from having a racial bonus to your main ability score is just too important in 5E, especially at low levels.
I don't think WotC's decision is actually driven by wokists. I'll bet they took a look at data on D&D Beyond and noticed that 75% or more of the characters are variations on the same 8-10 race/class combinations. Wokism is just the spin they put on it, because that's what they think is hot right now.
Quote from: Corolinth on September 28, 2022, 03:18:39 PM
I don't think WotC's decision is actually driven by wokists. I'll bet they took a look at data on D&D Beyond and noticed that 75% or more of the characters are variations on the same 8-10 race/class combinations. Wokism is just the spin they put on it, because that's what they think is hot right now.
I don't think that's the case. Any evidence to back this up?
Quote from: Corolinth on September 28, 2022, 03:18:39 PM
The current edition of D&D has a problem with in-game demographics. It's one thing if 80% of your dwarves are fighters. That's using races to play to an archetype for flavor. If 80% of your fighters are dwarves, maybe you want to rethink how your races are designed. It seems to me like that's where 5E is at right now. Nobody plays humans, because why would you? But also, nobody plays dwarf fighters, all the fighters are half-orcs or dragonborn. The elves are all rangers and rogues, no elf wizards or druids. The wizards are all gnomes, the warlocks are all tieflings. That extra +1 bonus you get to your rolls from having a racial bonus to your main ability score is just too important in 5E, especially at low levels.
I don't think WotC's decision is actually driven by wokists. I'll bet they took a look at data on D&D Beyond and noticed that 75% or more of the characters are variations on the same 8-10 race/class combinations. Wokism is just the spin they put on it, because that's what they think is hot right now.
+1 to a score, or even +2 and a guaranteed +1 to a modifier, kinda means very little in a game where even the latter makes a halfling only 5% less likely to win an arm wrestling contest by "missing out". If anything, it's not enough differentiation between a gnome and a human for the human to maybe (depending on stat choice, but potentially not even this much) have a +1 extra to strength. Face facts, people play dwarf fighters because that's what they like to play.
Likewise, racial traits, themselves key for player choice and adding flavor to and differentiating nonhuman species, are a much more meaningful way of differentiating builds on a racial basis, especially where stat generation is random. But the woke as proven by articles like the ones referenced in the video want to do away with "bioessentialism", or mechanical differences between species, by killing them as well. Your recommendations as implemented in Tasha's only served to shift the meta in a way that broke the original balancing and screwed over humans and half elves, because they were predicated on assignable bonuses as opposed to strong species traits. While mechanically entrenching the ludicrous idea that an equally specialized gnome will have a higher strength score than a human on account of their now assignable +2 modifier. It's all totally nonsensical and damages game balance and mechanical play, as well as roleplaying and connection to the lore.
Even if it were due to minmax that the rulebook were somehow causing archetypes to be played, that would be mostly a player attitude "problem". On which note, casters or partial casters are generally a superior mid-later game choice, but that won't and doesn't stop me and a lot of other people from playing martial archetypes, so I question the validity of minmax as the one true explanation for uncited D&D Beyond statistics, which themselves arguably do not represent the hobby at large. Mountain Dwarf Casters are a superior build cuz it gives casters free medium armor, but nobody goes for that because the archetype isn't appealing. People sometimes like and find value in certain combinations and archetypes, efficacy be damned, and I don't think it's right to label that "badwrongfun" or whatever. Heck, even minmax itself is in essence just specialization, that can at times add flavor, and is itself made possible through systems that encourage player choice and meaningful build decisions.
Also, Wizards is pretty woke, though there are threads on both that and the wokeness of their products, so I'll leave you to look that up. Also, Tasha's was explicitly in part a roll-over response to BS allegations of differentiation in species ability boosts being racist.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 28, 2022, 02:17:07 PM
Well, the 30-odd people that were involved in one way or another in my 5E games are now aware, since I told them I would no longer be running any WotC products, and why.
These thing putter along with no apparent motion or gravity--until the people involved come to their senses or they don't. WotC can get away with a lot of crap. They can't get away with an infinite amount of crap. We'll see if they break it off before then.
Understood. What are you switching to in order to get your fantasy fix?
Quote from: KindaMeh on September 28, 2022, 02:23:03 PM
I assure you that unfortunately it is reflected in the products such corporations produce, the ideologies nested therein, and the mechanics they design and that are available for play. It also determines what ads go out, who feels ideologically welcome or unwelcome in the hobby, and at events and the like, etcetera. We game mostly within our bubbles, but trust me when I say even there it can have an impact. To say nothing of broader societal consequences and contexts.
Then I guess the best thing we can do is promote the OSR and other fantasy (and non-fantasy) games so that people know that there are other things to play. Then there is less money going into WOTC's pockets and perhaps it will make a difference.
Quote from: Ruprecht on September 28, 2022, 02:27:00 PM
I could be wrong but I think it is mostly DMs that spend time on blogs and forums and such.
That is possible.
I'll just quote myself from the comment I left on YT earlier today.
QuoteWhat these wokists ultimately want doesn't even need a rulebook. They can just sit around a table and describe how their self-insert blue-haired sex-positive trans-halfling tiefling with wings and magic blood does amazing awesome at everything. Because that's all they want: to use the game as self-validation for their own debauched lifestyle.
But they can never be content with no one really caring what they do in their private lives, so they must FORCE others into caring. And they do that through bully tactics. That's why the goalposts keep shifting, because if they simply take the win when they get it, they will eventually slip back into obscurity. These aren't just narcisists, these are full-blown sociopaths.
I always say: the best thing you can do is ignore them. Simply don't give them the attention they crave.
Pundit disagreed with the last sentence, saying you can never ignore them because they will never ignore you.
I should clarify that by "ignore them" I mostly meant not capitulating to their demands. I also whole-hearted believe they should be mocked mercilessly. Do not try to engage lefties through logic or reason, they do not care at all about principles or consistency. They only care about winning... forever. They are perpetual victims, and there will always be a new battle for them to win. If you don't give in, they will eventually get bored and look for an easier target. Because they ARE bullies, and bullies are often wimps.
As for the topic, it's being discussed to death in two other threads, so I'm not going to get too deep into my opinions here. I'm not sure anyone can definitively claim that
WotC wants "grey goo" characters, even if that is the eventual goal of insane wokists. Wizards loves their crunchy mechanics and endless content bloat (it's how they make their money after all), so I doubt they're going to just strip the system down to it's bare bones. My prediction is that removing Ability score adjustments is going to be replaced by more strict lockdowns on classes. They can then sell "diversity" by offering dozens of special snowflake abilities pre-packaged in little 20-level bundles, which can then be laid atop the non-bioessentionalist races.
Dnd can be bad at modelling extreme differences in attributes. The attributes are to much of a backbone in the system. High attributes are critical for your build, and mid or low attributes are often completely irrelevant. Can skew how you allocate things.
But when majority of char gen boils down to attributes, race, and class you better make all of them distinct in some way. And I still think attribute modifiers are fun.
I've been wanting to give some negative modifiers, but that incentives even heavier into certain class selection. Maybe you could do an option between two negative modifiers for most races?
Humans - Lawful Neutral (Neutral)
+2 Con
-2 Wisdom or -2 Charisma
Half-Orcs - Chaotic Neutral (Chaotic)
+2 Str
-2 Intelligence or -2 Charisma
Elves - Chaotic Good (Good)
+2 Dex
-2 Str or -2 Con
Halflings - Neutral Good (Good)
+2 Cha
-2 Str or -2 Int
Dwarves - Lawful Neutral (Lawful)
+2 Wis
-2 Cha or -2 Dex
Gnomes - True Neutral (Neutral)
+2 Int
-2 Str or -2 Con
Something like that.
The Alignment bit Explained
It's just my own takes on alignment, nothing official. It's divided into a default alignment and an alignment affinity.
Most members of this race will be of the stated alignment. Most other members will be of an alignment matching the parenthesis. About 10% will be any other alignments.
So for Humans: Most humans will be Lawful Neutral and most others will be some flavour of neutral. Most half orcs will be chaotic neutral, most others will be chaotic good or chaotic evil.
Player characters being outside the norm does not have to match this and starts the game as either any alignment they want, any neutral alignment, or unaligned, dependent on if you want to run alignment as a guide to behavior, a cosmic force, or something you save for later.
Quote from: Zelen on September 28, 2022, 03:33:06 PM
Quote from: Corolinth on September 28, 2022, 03:18:39 PM
I don't think WotC's decision is actually driven by wokists. I'll bet they took a look at data on D&D Beyond and noticed that 75% or more of the characters are variations on the same 8-10 race/class combinations. Wokism is just the spin they put on it, because that's what they think is hot right now.
I don't think that's the case. Any evidence to back this up?
His claim sounds like exaggerated made-up numbers, but there may be an underlying point. There is D&D Beyond data from back in 2017 here:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/
Including only the core races from the Player's Handbook, the top 22 out of 108 combos account for the majority of all characters. That may have become more concentrated since 2017. I don't see updated data from quick search, though.
I would take half-orc as an example. 53% of half-orc characters are either Barbarian or Fighter, while only 2.8% of them are Wizard. But if one were to roll attributes by 3d6 in order with racial modifiers, then 35% of half-orc characters should still have a higher Intelligence than Strength. I'd claim that half-orcs are far more lopsided than the modifiers would imply to random-roll, because of the min-max effect of racial bonuses. I discuss the min-max effect in another thread here:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/min-maxing-and-racial-ability-score-adjustments/
Quote from: Corolinth on September 28, 2022, 03:18:39 PM
... Nobody plays humans, because why would you? But also, nobody plays dwarf fighters, all the fighters are half-orcs or dragonborn. The elves are all rangers and rogues, no elf wizards or druids. The wizards are all gnomes, the warlocks are all tieflings.
Nobody plays the CORE human. The variant human is chosen quite often from what I've seen. Wokists seem to love tieflings, dragonborn, and dhampir. I guess because they're either edgelords or they have some weird demon/dragon-porn fetish (there's an actual name for it that I don't care to look up or remember). Half-elf also seems to be more popular than full elf, the reasons for that I can only assume at (though the virtue of being "mixed race" may be a factor in some cases).
Quote from: GhostNinja on September 28, 2022, 04:04:38 PM
Understood. What are you switching to in order to get your fantasy fix?
My own thing.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 28, 2022, 05:43:03 PM
My own thing.
Cool. I am looking into Basic Fantasy and a couple other ones. Right now I have the three core books, Tasha's, Xanatars and the Ghosts of Saltmarsh book and their petty changes have not affected my game yet.
I have been saying for years that the only way that crowd will be pacified is to remove races and alignment from the game rules. They are simply unable to comprehend the totally alien intelligences that would be present in all of those humanoids they flock to anyway. May as well just chuck those rules out and they can describe themselves in the 18 pages of backstory no-one reads but themselves.
One issue with the idea that ability score modifiers help reinforce archetypes is that that isn't really true all of the time. With Halflings? Sure, a Dex bonus helps reinforce the idea that they're Thieves/Rogues, but Elves also getting an equal Dex bonus (and in older editions a Con penalty) doesn't help reinforce the idea that they're Wizards and even less that they're Fighter-Mages (their true inclination). Dwarves getting a Con bonus might work for Fighters, but a Con bonus is actually good for everyone.
If anything, I'd say that the changes presented in the Character Origins "playtest" document help reinforce archetypes better, cuz Elves actually get bonus spells now, so all elves really are wizards now (or Druids/Rangers in the case of Wild Elves). Same with Gnomes and all the magical races. Orcs get Adrenaline Rush and Reckless Endurance (they already had that second one, though). Halflings get stuff like Luck, Nimbleness and Bravery, and also get Stealth for free, etc.
So that archetype representation isn't out the window, it's just done through racial traits now, which more precisely convey the sort of talents those races are supposed to have. All the criticism of these changes I've seen on these boards seem to focus on they getting rid of ability modifiers, which is only a tiny element of what they actually changed, and one that didn't always reinforce racial archetypes or inclinations as well as people seem to think they did. And this isn't even getting into the the whole discussion of Ability Modifiers vs Min/Max Ability Requirements and other methods of handling racial ability score values that have been rehashed over and over again in other threads.
Quote from: jhkim on September 28, 2022, 04:40:53 PM
Quote from: Zelen on September 28, 2022, 03:33:06 PM
Quote from: Corolinth on September 28, 2022, 03:18:39 PM
I don't think WotC's decision is actually driven by wokists. I'll bet they took a look at data on D&D Beyond and noticed that 75% or more of the characters are variations on the same 8-10 race/class combinations. Wokism is just the spin they put on it, because that's what they think is hot right now.
I don't think that's the case. Any evidence to back this up?
His claim sounds like exaggerated made-up numbers, but there may be an underlying point. There is D&D Beyond data from back in 2017 here:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/
Including only the core races from the Player's Handbook, the top 22 out of 108 combos account for the majority of all characters. That may have become more concentrated since 2017. I don't see updated data from quick search, though.
I would take half-orc as an example. 53% of half-orc characters are either Barbarian or Fighter, while only 2.8% of them are Wizard. But if one were to roll attributes by 3d6 in order with racial modifiers, then 35% of half-orc characters should still have a higher Intelligence than Strength. I'd claim that half-orcs are far more lopsided than the modifiers would imply to random-roll, because of the min-max effect of racial bonuses. I discuss the min-max effect in another thread here:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/min-maxing-and-racial-ability-score-adjustments/
I wonder how useful data from D&D Beyond truly is to determine player preferences, given that you only get access to a limited range of subclasses for free (and I believe certain subraces or even races as well), which is bound to affect player choices. And then add to that the fact that it only accounts for people who actually play using D&D Beyond.
I only tried it recently, cuz I got invited to an online game that hasn't even started yet, but my character has been made for close to a month now. And I actually wanted to make her Arcane Trickster, but that subclass isn't available for free (she isn't level 3 yet, though, so can't pick any subclass regardless). How many people here actually use D&D Beyond? And how regularly?
This is why I only allow humans in my setting. At most I allow ancestry backgrounds like tiefling, dhampir, or dragonborn. These characters still look like human beings with minor and concealable inhuman features.
Quote from: VisionStorm on September 28, 2022, 07:25:01 PM
How many people here actually use D&D Beyond? And how regularly?
I have used it in the past. I wasn't really satisfied with it. Free version is way too limited. I don't want to buy content on there for multiple reasons - if it should at any point go under or be replaced with some other platform, then all of my content is useless, if changes are made that I personally disagree with I have no choice in the implementation of those changes into the content I have already paid for. I still have the first printings of the 5E PHB, DMG, and MM. If I decide I want to play or run 5E at any point in the future for some reason, I'm fine with using those without the changes already made to those books in subsequent printing and the additional books that came after.
Quote from: jhkim on September 28, 2022, 04:40:53 PM
There is D&D Beyond data from back in 2017 here:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/
Jhkim,
That's the old (2017) dataset of 100,000 characters. For a newer (2020) dataset of
30 Million characters:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/07/dd-and-the-most-popular-class-is.html
Quote from: Palleon on September 28, 2022, 06:53:12 PM
I have been saying for years that the only way that crowd will be pacified is to remove races and alignment from the game rules. They are simply unable to comprehend the totally alien intelligences that would be present in all of those humanoids they flock to anyway. May as well just chuck those rules out and they can describe themselves in the 18 pages of backstory no-one reads but themselves.
That wont passify them. They weill find something else to be offended about. It's not about the races, they are professional victims and they always need something to be offened about. Not to mention who cares what they think? They arent gamers who are actually playing D&D anyway.
Quote from: Dropbear on September 28, 2022, 08:15:08 PM
I have used it in the past. I wasn't really satisfied with it. Free version is way too limited. I don't want to buy content on there for multiple reasons - if it should at any point go under or be replaced with some other platform, then all of my content is useless, if changes are made that I personally disagree with I have no choice in the implementation of those changes into the content I have already paid for. I still have the first printings of the 5E PHB, DMG, and MM. If I decide I want to play or run 5E at any point in the future for some reason, I'm fine with using those without the changes already made to those books in subsequent printing and the additional books that came after.
I think that it is crazy that the online versions of the books are only $20 cheaper than the print ones. Yeah it is way too limited for me to use anyway.
And I do not allow electronic devices at my table so people can create characters using it, but they need to print them out.
Quote from: Effete on September 28, 2022, 04:35:13 PM
Pundit disagreed with the last sentence, saying you can never ignore them because they will never ignore you.
I am able to ignore them because I don't use social media so I don't see the crap that they say. Any SJW/Wokiest who would try to get into my game would be shot down and if they made it in, as soon as they showed signs would be kicked out.
Not giving them the attention they craze is the way to go. Attacking them is still attention and still draws attention to them and thus what they are fighitng for.
Quote from: Effete on September 28, 2022, 04:49:49 PM
Nobody plays the CORE human. The variant human is chosen quite often from what I've seen. Wokists seem to love tieflings, dragonborn, and dhampir.
I also prefer humans in general, but I also prefer Tieflings and Dragonborn* to dwarves and elves even though I'm as anti-Woke as you'll find because I'm just sick to death of Cargo Cult Tolkein-alike where designers claim some sort of originality in doing what everyone has done before.
So, yes, give me a proud warrior race born from the blood of the first dragon god who once sought to raise an empire to his glory and the tainted ancestors of those who made a deal with the devil to avoid being conquered by the dragon gods' brood and in so doing left infernal scars on all their descendants and shattered the world into a post-apocalyptic wasteland where the surviving humans, dragonborn and tieflings must fight to survive against infernally-twisted beasts, corrupted dragons and shattered things that were once men. Hell, bring on the Puti (winged halflings) as divine agents sent by the gods of light to help champions set the world aright.
At least it's not version #584 of snooty magic forest people and gruff ale-guzzling mine people who have vague fantastic racism against each other while medieval-themed humans from the plains play mediator even as yet another evil overlord raises an army of orcs in the wastes to conquer the world. Oh, and there are Hobbits even though no one likes playing them because if you aren't aping the forms Tolkein created even if you don't understand why he created them then you don't have a proper fantasy world [this is sarcasm for the tonally impaired].
I mean, even TSR knew the formula was repetitive... it's why they started branching out with Dragonlance (Kender, Draconians, Tinker Gnomes, Minotaurs). It's why they created Dark Sun and Planescape.
The Lord of the Rings is a masterpiece that will outlast us all. It doesn't mean that cargo-culting it will make your derivative work a masterpiece.
So, yeah, I want distinct and meaningful races tied to setting lore... just not more Tolkein-alikes.
* and Dhampirs, but only in Vampire the Masquerade where it let's you be adjacent to the themes without having to play an actual monster.
Quote from: Chris24601 on September 29, 2022, 09:15:21 AM
Quote from: Effete on September 28, 2022, 04:49:49 PM
Nobody plays the CORE human. The variant human is chosen quite often from what I've seen. Wokists seem to love tieflings, dragonborn, and dhampir.
I also prefer humans in general, but I also prefer Tieflings and Dragonborn* to dwarves and elves even though I'm as anti-Woke as you'll find because I'm just sick to death of Cargo Cult Tolkein-alike where designers claim some sort of originality in doing what everyone has done before.
So, yes, give me a proud warrior race born from the blood of the first dragon god who once sought to raise an empire to his glory and the tainted ancestors of those who made a deal with the devil to avoid being conquered by the dragon gods' brood and in so doing left infernal scars on all their descendants and shattered the world into a post-apocalyptic wasteland where the surviving humans, dragonborn and tieflings must fight to survive against infernally-twisted beasts, corrupted dragons and shattered things that were once men. Hell, bring on the Puti (winged halflings) as divine agents sent by the gods of light to help champions set the world aright.
At least it's not version #584 of snooty magic forest people and gruff ale-guzzling mine people who have vague fantastic racism against each other while medieval-themed humans from the plains play mediator even as yet another evil overlord raises an army of orcs in the wastes to conquer the world. Oh, and there are Hobbits even though no one likes playing them because if you aren't aping the forms Tolkein created even if you don't understand why he created them then you don't have a proper fantasy world [this is sarcasm for the tonally impaired].
I mean, even TSR knew the formula was repetitive... it's why they started branching out with Dragonlance (Kender, Draconians, Tinker Gnomes, Minotaurs). It's why they created Dark Sun and Planescape.
The Lord of the Rings is a masterpiece that will outlast us all. It doesn't mean that cargo-culting it will make your derivative work a masterpiece.
So, yeah, I want distinct and meaningful races tied to setting lore... just not more Tolkein-alikes.
* and Dhampirs, but only in Vampire the Masquerade where it let's you be adjacent to the themes without having to play an actual monster.
I'm making my own urban fantasy setting with outright heroic vampires who moonlight as superheroes who fight crime and demons. I would have made it into a ttrpg but it's impossible to break into the market due to the insane brand loyalty to a few stagnant IPs that got started in the 80s and 90s, so I'm gonna go into the vastly healthier and more profitable crpg and prose fiction markets.
Quote from: Aglondir on September 29, 2022, 12:52:34 AM
Quote from: jhkim on September 28, 2022, 04:40:53 PM
There is D&D Beyond data from back in 2017 here:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/
Jhkim,
That's the old (2017) dataset of 100,000 characters. For a newer (2020) dataset of 30 Million characters:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/07/dd-and-the-most-popular-class-is.html
Yes, I mentioned that it was older. But that post doesn't display race/class combinations. Are the combos or the raw data available somewhere?
Quote from: GhostNinja on September 28, 2022, 01:58:06 PM
I wonder, really if these SJW's are making any difference. My group is unaware of this crap going on and no other gamers I speak to are aware either.
I wonder if its a big deal online, but to actual gamers (those of us who are actually playing games) whether it actually has an effect.
Yeah, they are making a difference: no more fixed ASI, for one, Radiant Citadel, for other.
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on September 29, 2022, 12:50:19 PM
Yeah, they are making a difference: no more fixed ASI, for one, Radiant Citadel, for other.
Luckily there are other games like the OSR to move to when they eventually destroy D&D
Quote from: Cathode Ray on September 28, 2022, 02:14:16 PM
Weren't the SJW crowd just a few years ago chanting, "Our strength is in our diversity"???
It allways goes this way.
They are offended theres not enough diversity!
Then they are offended there is diversity. And get the diverse things removed or downplayed.
Then they are offended there is not enough diversity!
Ad nausium
Something something danegeld, something something dane...
Quote from: Omega on September 29, 2022, 01:49:26 PM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on September 28, 2022, 02:14:16 PM
Weren't the SJW crowd just a few years ago chanting, "Our strength is in our diversity"???
It allways goes this way.
They are offended theres not enough diversity!
Then they are offended there is diversity. And get the diverse things removed or downplayed.
Then they are offended there is not enough diversity!
Ad nausium
Oh, it's very consistent. They want to add certain types of diversity to their own, but at the same time, want to make sure other viewpoints and cultures adapt to support and approve of them ...
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 29, 2022, 10:35:45 AM
... heroic vampires who moonlight as superheroes ...
I see what you did there.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 29, 2022, 10:35:45 AM
I'm making my own urban fantasy setting with outright heroic vampires who moonlight as superheroes who fight crime and demons.
It's Morbin' time
Quote from: jhkim on September 29, 2022, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: Aglondir on September 29, 2022, 12:52:34 AM
Quote from: jhkim on September 28, 2022, 04:40:53 PM
There is D&D Beyond data from back in 2017 here:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/
Jhkim,
That's the old (2017) dataset of 100,000 characters. For a newer (2020) dataset of 30 Million characters:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/07/dd-and-the-most-popular-class-is.html
Yes, I mentioned that it was older. But that post doesn't display race/class combinations. Are the combos or the raw data available somewhere?
Don't know. That would be cool, though.
Edit: Hard to believe that the Fighter is the most popular class!
Quote from: Aglondir on September 29, 2022, 07:04:16 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 29, 2022, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: Aglondir on September 29, 2022, 12:52:34 AM
Quote from: jhkim on September 28, 2022, 04:40:53 PM
There is D&D Beyond data from back in 2017 here:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/
Jhkim,
That's the old (2017) dataset of 100,000 characters. For a newer (2020) dataset of 30 Million characters:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/07/dd-and-the-most-popular-class-is.html
Yes, I mentioned that it was older. But that post doesn't display race/class combinations. Are the combos or the raw data available somewhere?
Don't know. That would be cool, though.
Edit: Hard to believe that the Fighter is the most popular class!
The vast, vast majority of thise characters are never played and fighter is what most people make when testing D&DBeyond.
Quote from: Slambo on April 11, 1975, 09:38:42 AM
The vast, vast majority of thise characters are never played and fighter is what most people make when testing D&DBeyond.
Slambo,
That makes sense. Explains why the data doesn't match the anecdotal evidence (what I've seen played, which is an extremely small sample set.)
Yeah, 30 million is such a ridiculously huge number that I doubt most have actually been played in any meaningful capacity.
Quote from: Aglondir on September 30, 2022, 01:34:38 PM
Quote from: Slambo on April 11, 1975, 09:38:42 AM
The vast, vast majority of thise characters are never played and fighter is what most people make when testing D&DBeyond.
Sambo,
That makes sense. Explains why the data doesn't match the anecdotal evidence (what I've seen played, which is an extremely small sample set.)
Yeah, I was about to say the same thing.
My anecdotal evidence (based off of character applications for PbP games) is that the "variant" human is quite popular, as well as half-elf and halfling, along with dragonborn and tiefling in games that allow them. Warlock (especially hexblade) is probably the most popular caster, if you don't include Bard in the mix (which most people take for Inspire, it seems, and less for the magic). Cleric, Rogue, and Sorcerer probably round out the top five.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 30, 2022, 01:39:53 PM
Yeah, 30 million is such a ridiculously huge number that I doubt most have actually been played in any meaningful capacity.
I have three characters in there, none of which have been played, and I only intend to play one of them—IF, the campaign I made her for ever kicks off (still remains to be seen).
I also notice that from the linked data, every single one of the most "popular" subclass also happens to be the single subclass of every class that D&D Beyond allows for free. These aren't the most popular picks, they're what people make when trying out D&D Beyond using the free options.
Quote from: jhkim on September 28, 2022, 04:40:53 PM
I would take half-orc as an example. 53% of half-orc characters are either Barbarian or Fighter, while only 2.8% of them are Wizard. But if one were to roll attributes by 3d6 in order with racial modifiers, then 35% of half-orc characters should still have a higher Intelligence than Strength. I'd claim that half-orcs are far more lopsided than the modifiers would imply to random-roll, because of the min-max effect of racial bonuses.
The problem is that Woke Maoists look at that and think "This is systemic racism!!!1!" because they think black people are Orcs.
"Nobody plays human" is also a lie. A couple of years ago, one of these studies found that the most common character created for online play on a certain platform was a male human cleric.
This left the wokists sputtering with outrage. They think that's a sign that D&D is Nazi. "Male (presumably white cis) human CLERIC (religious conservative)" is their version of how other people would have imagined if the typical D&D character was Jeffrey Dahmer (who is now apparently a misunderstood victim in the Left's eyes).
So of course the call for Grey Goo character creation rules is also specifically a call to ban the Male Human Cleric. Its a declaration of war against the people who like that kind of character: the archetypal character, the heroic character, the character that means something other than "a celebration of individual identity and sexual/gender expression".
Good video!
Limits and bonuses for classes and races make the game more interesting! Otherwise why even have race and class at all?
Besides, a stealthy orc is only interesting BECAUSE orcs are traditionally aggressive brutes. If orcs are no longer dim-witted pillagers, then the stealthy orc is no longer interesting.