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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Neoplatonist1 on November 12, 2021, 07:51:28 PM

Title: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Neoplatonist1 on November 12, 2021, 07:51:28 PM
Call of Cthulhu has its "orclike" races of minor monsters, which it presents as irredeemably inimical to mankind. Deep Ones, for instance, view men as breeding stock at best, sacrificial victims at worst, and nonentities in the middle. Would the wokies in their shaggy wisdom seek to change Deep Ones into people who are only typically inimical to man, or do Cthulhoid entities get overlooked because they're intended to be based on the incomprehensible craziness of the Mythos?
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: PsyXypher on November 12, 2021, 08:39:21 PM
Not to mention that CoC has also removed insanity because it's offensive to insane people. Speaking of which I should make a post on that.

I don't think they can wokify the Lovecraftian Pantheon. Considering Cthulhu is the embodiment of "No Lives Matter".
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Neoplatonist1 on November 12, 2021, 09:12:37 PM
Not to mention that CoC has also removed insanity because it's offensive to insane people. Speaking of which I should make a post on that.

Surely, you jest.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 12, 2021, 09:49:50 PM
Yeah, I SO wanna see this, because the Sanity mechanic is such a major part of CoC.

I won't deny Call of Cthulhu would benefit from something a little less linear, like the systems from Unknown Armies. But if they removed insanity, good grief what's the point?

Also, I wouldn't expect the wokeists to try to 'fix' the Deep Ones initially. My money would be on removing or 'fixing' the tcho-tcho, since those are closer to baseline human (for a relative degree; the tcho-tchos are psychopathic cannibals).
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Fantacide on November 12, 2021, 10:04:49 PM
Yeah, I SO wanna see this, because the Sanity mechanic is such a major part of CoC.

I won't deny Call of Cthulhu would benefit from something a little less linear, like the systems from Unknown Armies. But if they removed insanity, good grief what's the point?

Also, I wouldn't expect the wokeists to try to 'fix' the Deep Ones initially. My money would be on removing or 'fixing' the tcho-tcho, since those are closer to baseline human (for a relative degree; the tcho-tchos are psychopathic cannibals).

Didn't the new Delta Green game remove the tcho-tcho completely or retcon them in some way? I might be misremembering.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: PsyXypher on November 12, 2021, 10:06:20 PM
Not to mention that CoC has also removed insanity because it's offensive to insane people. Speaking of which I should make a post on that.

Surely, you jest.

https://www.prosperopublishing.com/2021/05/21/mythos-corruption-an-alternative-to-insanity/

I do not. They stuffed in some "Corruption" system which I'm not willing to look over because of /why/.

How these people can screech about Lovecraft being a racist at one point in his life and still use his creations for profit and propaganda infuriates me.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: FingerRod on November 12, 2021, 10:11:30 PM
Not to mention that CoC has also removed insanity because it's offensive to insane people. Speaking of which I should make a post on that.

I don't think they can wokify the Lovecraftian Pantheon. Considering Cthulhu is the embodiment of "No Lives Matter".

So did Graham Walmsley with Cthulhu Dark. Insanity is now called Insight.

That said, I have really enjoyed his works and writing. Difference of opinion or changing the mechanic name does not bother me (I still called it Insanity in my game). To my knowledge Graham hasn’t crossed that line into hating people who see the world differently than he does.

I also don’t think they will be able to woke Lovecraft. They are blind idiots that focus on his bigotry. And they already come from a place where they have no original ideas. The soil there just isn’t rich enough to produce something.

So what they will continue to do is straight up steal from his vision and then just jack off in front of a mirror for a paragraph or two condemning him somewhere in the first five pages.

Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 12, 2021, 10:14:21 PM
Not to mention that CoC has also removed insanity because it's offensive to insane people. Speaking of which I should make a post on that.

Surely, you jest.

https://www.prosperopublishing.com/2021/05/21/mythos-corruption-an-alternative-to-insanity/

I do not. They stuffed in some "Corruption" system which I'm not willing to look over because of /why/.

How these people can screech about Lovecraft being a racist at one point in his life and still use his creations for profit and propaganda infuriates me.
Yeah, this stinks of 'we don't wanna be called insensitive'. If it was built from whole cloth for a system I suppose I'd be less judgemental, but it's blatantly ignoring one of the themes of the Cthulhu Mythos. The corruption and madness is a result of grasping (or trying to grasp) the greater implications of such revelations, as well as studying things man was not meant to know. Not the result of some psychological 'infection'.

And holy shit, this guy.

Quote
When thinking of asylums and private care, we reflect on Sarah Connor in Terminator 2; she was not insane, she was informed. Instead of willingly undergoing treatment, she focused on her resistance to future threats while institutionalized.
...He left out the part where she had gone just a little around the bend from 'being informed', and had been institutionalized for trying to blow up an electronics plant. She wasn't wrong about the threat, but she was NOT healthy from a psychological perspective!

Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: GeekyBugle on November 12, 2021, 10:14:32 PM
Not to mention that CoC has also removed insanity because it's offensive to insane people. Speaking of which I should make a post on that.

I don't think they can wokify the Lovecraftian Pantheon. Considering Cthulhu is the embodiment of "No Lives Matter".

So did Graham Walmsley with Cthulhu Dark. Insanity is now called Insight.

That said, I have really enjoyed his works and writing. Difference of opinion or changing the mechanic name does not bother me (I still called it Insanity in my game). To my knowledge Graham hasn’t crossed that line into hating people who see the world differently than he does.

I also don’t think they will be able to woke Lovecraft. They are blind idiots that focus on his bigotry. And they already come from a place where they have no original ideas. The soil there just isn’t rich enough to produce something.

So what they will continue to do is straight up steal from his vision and then just jack off in front of a mirror for a paragraph or two condemning him somewhere in the first five pages.

Well, after years of clamoring that J. R. R. Tolkien was a Waaaaaacist! Now they are clamoring that LotR was and is super woke!

You forget they don't need to be internally consistent just to scream harder.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Tubesock Army on November 12, 2021, 10:19:44 PM
Not to mention that CoC has also removed insanity because it's offensive to insane people. Speaking of which I should make a post on that.

I don't think they can wokify the Lovecraftian Pantheon. Considering Cthulhu is the embodiment of "No Lives Matter".

COC hasn't removed Insanity, it's in the 7e rulebook. Your link goes to a 3rd party "publisher's" (quotes because I can't see that they've published anything besides a blog) blog post about their house rules.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: PsyXypher on November 12, 2021, 10:32:23 PM
Not to mention that CoC has also removed insanity because it's offensive to insane people. Speaking of which I should make a post on that.

I don't think they can wokify the Lovecraftian Pantheon. Considering Cthulhu is the embodiment of "No Lives Matter".

COC hasn't removed Insanity, it's in the 7e rulebook. Your link goes to a 3rd party "publisher's" (quotes because I can't see thatthey've published anything besides a blog) blog post about their house rules.

This might have originated in Fate of Cthulhu. Which considering it's from Evil Hate Productions it makes sense.

Honestly I want to be wrong but my track record of being wrong on things I want is pretty shallow.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on November 13, 2021, 12:05:43 AM
The Shape of the Water, while a film is woke Cthulu if you want to see how that would be in practice.

Which is to say the monsters are all misunderstood and oppressed by evil 1950s governments.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Svenhelgrim on November 13, 2021, 12:44:52 AM
The Yithians, Deep Ones, Serpent People, Cthonians, Mi-Go, Flying Polyps, Star Vampires, Colors of of Space, Nightgaunts, and Shoggoths were all here first.  The humans are living on stolen land.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: S'mon on November 13, 2021, 01:00:04 AM
Also, I wouldn't expect the wokeists to try to 'fix' the Deep Ones initially.

There have definitely been authors writing nice, misunderstood Deep Ones & half breeds.

HPL's work is kind of a target rich environment, I almost have sympathy for the Wokeists on this one. OTOH they lack his talent and tend to be ignorant of history.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Lynn on November 13, 2021, 02:45:39 AM
Since it is in public domain, people can do what they want. But a close reading of the end of The Shadow Over Innsmouth is suggestive that the "Innsmouth Look" is equally transformative of the human mind. The main character right up to the end is fearful and, seemingly likely to eat a bullet like his uncle. But at some point, his mind 'transforms' and he suddenly is looking forward to joining the Deep Ones. The Deep One mind seems to overwrite and destroy a part of his identity.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Svenhelgrim on November 13, 2021, 02:57:39 AM
In The Shadow Over Innsmouth, the narrator learns to accept cultural diversity and his own mixed-race background.  He also learns religious tolerance, and that Cthulism is actually a peacful philosophy. 

The SJW’s got Lovecraft completely wrong.  He was actually a very progressive thinker and the “racism” in his stories was strictly from the point of view of his human characters who were unable to accept their own limitiations in the face of a vast, unfathomable, universe that cared nothing for them.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Zelen on November 13, 2021, 03:09:44 AM
Woke & Cthulu mythos go hand in hand. The Woke are literally the cultists in mythos stories, worshipping ancient, incomprehensible evils long submerged and hoping to awaken them even if it means destroying themselves and mankind as a whole.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Rob Necronomicon on November 13, 2021, 07:21:37 AM
I think CoC is relatively safe... Insane mad bastards go with the territory. Take that away and it's not Cthulhu.

Note, I don't really include games like Fate of Cthulhu which is just a cheap knock off cash in.

I don't mind the way it was done in Cthulhu Dark. As the more 'incite' (basically your view into the mythos and the futility of man's existence) you get the more fucking nuts you get and eventually become unplayable. I don't think Walmsley was trying to be woke per se.

Anyway, with an open license and a set of balls, an indie creator can be as politically incorrect as they like. 'Nout they can do about it...
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Godfather Punk on November 13, 2021, 07:48:56 AM
Would the wokies in their shaggy wisdom seek to change Deep Ones into people who are only typically inimical to man...?
I'm sure that Ruthanna Emrys' Innsmouth Cycle will at some point be (or has been already been) used as inspiration for settings with woke Deep Ones and problematic humans.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Marchand on November 13, 2021, 09:57:39 AM
I mistakenly picked up a 5e take on CoC called Whispers in the Dark a few years ago.

Quote from: Whispers In The Dark
The Problem with HPL
Please allow us a brief sidebar on H. P.
Lovecraft. Chances are good that if you’re
reading this you are aware of HPL’s beliefs
as they relate to race, religion, and gender.
We do not in any way, shape, or form condone
those views. They are despicable. To think
that Yog-Sothothery is limited to his writings
is to do a tremendous disservice to the folks
of all beliefs, backgrounds, and genders that
have since shaped the genre into what it
is today. This is not the mythos as it was
written a century ago. It is the mythos as it is
today, a voice for anyone and everyone.

This is just your basic virtue-signalling. I would actually be entertained to see someone have a go at bringing the Mythos itself into the big tent of just-misunderstood, although not enough to pay any money.

Scenario: one of the PCs' uncles owns a strange statuette of a monstrous octopus-faced deity. The PCs of course recognise this for imperialist patriarchy at work, and decide to liberate the statuette from the oppressor's "museum" to return it to the oppressed indigenous Pacific island people from whom it was stolen by evil white imperialists. Happily, party member (in all senses, comrades) Winthrop Prendergast is in a loving consensual relationship with Urgghurr the Deep Person, who agrees to help. Hilarity ensues.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Pat on November 13, 2021, 10:02:10 AM
There was Whispers in the Dark.

Quote from: Whispers In The Dark
It is the mythos as it is
today, a voice for anyone and everyone.
Are you sure that wasn't written by Nyarlathotep?
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Marchand on November 13, 2021, 10:36:22 AM
There was Whispers in the Dark.

Quote from: Whispers In The Dark
It is the mythos as it is
today, a voice for anyone and everyone.
Are you sure that wasn't written by Nyarlathotep?

It's funny you say that... I think part of the horror of the Mythos that Lovecraft tries to convey is the fact that it renders all human history, social connections, and any resulting value systems and judgements irrelevant. Which is kind of what the woke brigade are trying to do as well.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Neoplatonist1 on November 13, 2021, 12:47:56 PM
Maybe Cthulhu only likes eating the pink ones. Is that a plus or a minus?
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: PsyXypher on November 13, 2021, 12:54:59 PM
Maybe Cthulhu only likes eating the pink ones. Is that a plus or a minus?

I'm suddenly worried more for Cthulhu's health than for that of the people he's eating.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on November 13, 2021, 02:55:23 PM
Call of Cthulhu has its "orclike" races of minor monsters, which it presents as irredeemably inimical to mankind. Deep Ones, for instance, view men as breeding stock at best, sacrificial victims at worst, and nonentities in the middle. Would the wokies in their shaggy wisdom seek to change Deep Ones into people who are only typically inimical to man, or do Cthulhoid entities get overlooked because they're intended to be based on the incomprehensible craziness of the Mythos?
Over on sufficientvelocity, "Leila Hahn" goes into a very deep analysis of the fishes' behavior and notes a variety of idiosyncrasies and inconsistencies. Among other things, Hahn speculates that the fishes were invented by the old ones out of pity for humanity's short lifespans and programmed to reproduce with humans to make future generations immortal. They're not actually these evil monsters who deserve extermination, they're just forgotten science experiments.

I like Hahn's analyses. The analysis of "The Dunwich Horror" was quite fascinating and terrifying. They're much more creative than anything in the Chaosium-propagated "canon."
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: hedgehobbit on November 13, 2021, 04:35:36 PM
Over on sufficientvelocity, "Leila Hahn" goes into a very deep analysis of the fishes' behavior and notes a variety of idiosyncrasies and inconsistencies. Among other things, Hahn speculates that the fishes were invented by the old ones out of pity for humanity's short lifespans and programmed to reproduce with humans to make future generations immortal. They're not actually these evil monsters who deserve extermination, they're just forgotten science experiments.

So the old "not evil, just misunderstood" excuse.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Neoplatonist1 on November 13, 2021, 04:42:53 PM
Over on sufficientvelocity, "Leila Hahn" goes into a very deep analysis of the fishes' behavior and notes a variety of idiosyncrasies and inconsistencies. Among other things, Hahn speculates that the fishes were invented by the old ones out of pity for humanity's short lifespans and programmed to reproduce with humans to make future generations immortal. They're not actually these evil monsters who deserve extermination, they're just forgotten science experiments.

So the old "not evil, just misunderstood" excuse.

Given the amoral nature of the setting, that excuse applies to everything. Cthulhu isn't evil, he just is what he is. Only human conceit tries to plaster moral categories onto him. The orcs-must-be-people argument presupposes that Good and Evil exist as ontic categories.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: palaeomerus on November 13, 2021, 04:53:53 PM
Would the wokies in their shaggy wisdom seek to change Deep Ones into people who are only typically inimical to man...?
I'm sure that Ruthanna Emrys' Innsmouth Cycle will at some point be (or has been already been) used as inspiration for settings with woke Deep Ones and problematic humans.

Cthulhu is a would be colonizer. Before the elder beings colonized there was nothing. Earth Indigenes do not exist. It was just a mud ball truckstop for fungi to stop and piss on their way back to Yuggoth until this racist prick came down and brought a bunch of lab grown lackeys with it. And then the Yith borrowed it until they pissed off the polyps and had to move down the line to giant beetle things. 

(https://i.imgur.com/BTdsyZZ.png)
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Shasarak on November 13, 2021, 08:29:04 PM
Call of Cthulhu has its "orclike" races of minor monsters, which it presents as irredeemably inimical to mankind. Deep Ones, for instance, view men as breeding stock at best, sacrificial victims at worst, and nonentities in the middle. Would the wokies in their shaggy wisdom seek to change Deep Ones into people who are only typically inimical to man, or do Cthulhoid entities get overlooked because they're intended to be based on the incomprehensible craziness of the Mythos?
Over on sufficientvelocity, "Leila Hahn" goes into a very deep analysis of the fishes' behavior and notes a variety of idiosyncrasies and inconsistencies. Among other things, Hahn speculates that the fishes were invented by the old ones out of pity for humanity's short lifespans and programmed to reproduce with humans to make future generations immortal. They're not actually these evil monsters who deserve extermination, they're just forgotten science experiments.

I like Hahn's analyses. The analysis of "The Dunwich Horror" was quite fascinating and terrifying. They're much more creative than anything in the Chaosium-propagated "canon."

You could replace the "Fishes" with "Slave Owners" and justify anything using that logic.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on November 14, 2021, 08:11:56 PM
Call of Cthulhu has its "orclike" races of minor monsters, which it presents as irredeemably inimical to mankind. Deep Ones, for instance, view men as breeding stock at best, sacrificial victims at worst, and nonentities in the middle. Would the wokies in their shaggy wisdom seek to change Deep Ones into people who are only typically inimical to man, or do Cthulhoid entities get overlooked because they're intended to be based on the incomprehensible craziness of the Mythos?
Over on sufficientvelocity, "Leila Hahn" goes into a very deep analysis of the fishes' behavior and notes a variety of idiosyncrasies and inconsistencies. Among other things, Hahn speculates that the fishes were invented by the old ones out of pity for humanity's short lifespans and programmed to reproduce with humans to make future generations immortal. They're not actually these evil monsters who deserve extermination, they're just forgotten science experiments.

I like Hahn's analyses. The analysis of "The Dunwich Horror" was quite fascinating and terrifying. They're much more creative than anything in the Chaosium-propagated "canon."

You could replace the "Fishes" with "Slave Owners" and justify anything using that logic.
I'm just not a fan of the view that the fish people are these evil monsters that we must exterminate to keep humanity pure or whatever. I feel that sucks out the horror factor and just turns them into generic villains.

For me, the Dagon movie was pure schlock. But you know what I thought the single gem in it was? When the villain was utterly baffled by the suggestion that being an immortal fish mutant was something to be feared or despised.

I find it really frustrating that fans keep relying on schlock. That's why I'm always fascinated by the few genuinely good creepypastas like Mystery Flesh Pit National Park (https://mysteryfleshpit.tumblr.com/). It's Lovecraftian without falling into schlock clichés like "we must kill the filthy alien scum to keep them from polluting our pure blood!"
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: hedgehobbit on November 14, 2021, 08:22:54 PM
When the villain was utterly baffled by the suggestion that being an immortal fish mutant was something to be feared or despised.

Why do people keep saying that the Innsmouth fishmen are immortal? I don't think the story went into that much detail (the main dude just ran away and didn't stop to discuss their life cycle).
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Reckall on November 14, 2021, 09:58:01 PM
The Shape of the Water, while a film is woke Cthulu if you want to see how that would be in practice.

Which is to say the monsters are all misunderstood and oppressed by evil 1950s governments.

I haven't seen it, but from what is known about Del Toro long suffering "At the Mountains of Madness" project, it will never take off because he wants an hard "R" rating, the bleak conclusion and $200m. Not even James Cameron's support lifted it off the ground (even if after "Terminator: Woke Fate" I'm unsure about the current mental stability of JC).

Re: Woke Cthulhu, the "Arkham Reporter" is not worried:

Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Shasarak on November 14, 2021, 10:24:56 PM
When the villain was utterly baffled by the suggestion that being an immortal fish mutant was something to be feared or despised.

Why do people keep saying that the Innsmouth fishmen are immortal? I don't think the story went into that much detail (the main dude just ran away and didn't stop to discuss their life cycle).

I think that it is similar to the reason that people thought Shark Cartilage prevents cancer - because no on has seen a shark with cancer.

Therefore, if no one has seen a fishman die of old age then they must be immortal.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: PsyXypher on November 14, 2021, 11:18:31 PM
When the villain was utterly baffled by the suggestion that being an immortal fish mutant was something to be feared or despised.

Why do people keep saying that the Innsmouth fishmen are immortal? I don't think the story went into that much detail (the main dude just ran away and didn't stop to discuss their life cycle).

I think that it is similar to the reason that people thought Shark Cartilage prevents cancer - because no on has seen a shark with cancer.

Therefore, if no one has seen a fishman die of old age then they must be immortal.

I can't remember if sharks not getting cancer was a function of them being large animals (something that happens; humans get cancer less than say, cats and mice, and blue whales and elephants basically never get it) or was a special thing with sharks.

I haven't read Shadow Over Innsmouth, but I remember hearing that the half-fish people were long lived? I can't remember.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Neoplatonist1 on November 14, 2021, 11:21:47 PM
The Shape of the Water, while a film is woke Cthulu if you want to see how that would be in practice.

Which is to say the monsters are all misunderstood and oppressed by evil 1950s governments.

I haven't seen it, but from what is known about Del Toro long suffering "At the Mountains of Madness" project, it will never take off because he wants an hard "R" rating, the bleak conclusion and $200m. Not even James Cameron's support lifted it off the ground (even if after "Terminator: Woke Fate" I'm unsure about the current mental stability of JC).

Re: Woke Cthulhu, the "Arkham Reporter" is not worried:

Lovecraft versus Woke can be summed up in a single image: man versus tentacle. Men are unlike tentacles. Men have rules to how they bend. Tentacles have no rules and don't understand that men have and need rules to thrive.

Lovecraft is the tentacle. Woke is the man. It is in the nature of men to fight tentacles, using craft. It is in the tentacle's nature to strangle men, using sheer strength of undulation.

Men tell themselves that history is a process of men winning against tentacles. Tentacles believe whatever they want to believe.

If Lovecraft was right, the tentacle will win in the end. If Lovecraft was wrong, men will win.

In other words, there is no psychological escape if you're a tentacle. Either you accept the full force of the meaninglessness of the cosmos, or you believe that justice and compassion are real, which, today, defaults to the world men make for themselves. Or, if a just and compassionate alternative to woke can be postulated and promulgated with sufficiently compelling cogency and passion, tentacles will permanently fall out of fashion, banished from the anthroponormative demesne.

Because of this I hypothesize that Lovecraft is doomed.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Shasarak on November 15, 2021, 12:12:45 AM
If Lovecraft was right, the tentacle will win in the end. If Lovecraft was wrong, men will win.

If my take on Lovecraft is correct then the unrelenting grinding of eternity will kill both men and tentacles with no care for who gets killed first or second.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Opaopajr on November 15, 2021, 02:17:19 AM
The Shape of the Water, while a film is woke Cthulu if you want to see how that would be in practice.

Which is to say the monsters are all misunderstood and oppressed by evil 1950s governments.

I think of "The Shape of Water" as an Abe Sapien movie from Mike Mignola's universe (Hellboy, etc.). In fact, I suspect it might have had a subtitle to that effect before final release, or would not be surprised if it did. There is a lot of Abe Sapien comics similarities.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 15, 2021, 07:57:11 AM
The Shape of the Water, while a film is woke Cthulu if you want to see how that would be in practice.

Which is to say the monsters are all misunderstood and oppressed by evil 1950s governments.

I haven't seen it, but from what is known about Del Toro long suffering "At the Mountains of Madness" project, it will never take off because he wants an hard "R" rating, the bleak conclusion and $200m. Not even James Cameron's support lifted it off the ground (even if after "Terminator: Woke Fate" I'm unsure about the current mental stability of JC).

Re: Woke Cthulhu, the "Arkham Reporter" is not worried:


As I understand it, del Toro's project was the result of several much-hyped 'oddball' films flopping in succession, particularly Scott Pilgrim. Universal Pictures had taken several gambles and lost spectacularly each time; as a result, they weren't interested in ATMOM.

Which is a shame, because I like del Toro's stuff and I think he's got a good grasp on how to portray it.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Zalman on November 15, 2021, 09:58:06 AM
I haven't read Shadow Over Innsmouth

A situation well worth remedy!
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Lynn on November 15, 2021, 12:11:35 PM
I like Hahn's analyses. The analysis of "The Dunwich Horror" was quite fascinating and terrifying. They're much more creative than anything in the Chaosium-propagated "canon."

She's thoughtful but I don't think she's reading stories all that closely based on her analysis of Dagon.

https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/lets-read-everything-howard-phillips-lovecraft-ever-wrote.19724/page-27#post-9769644

She seems to think that the narrator is reliable during his retelling of the tale and it matters if the creature is telepathic or not.

The narrator is insane. He's a complete drug addict, out of his drugs, about to kill himself, and imagining a giant creature's footsteps coming up the stairs and a creature's hand at the upstairs window.  Now it isn't clear that the character is still in San Francisco or not, but the description of the location sounds like an upstairs room or apartment in a city building. I think the appearance of such a creature, even in the  Tenderloin, would be unusual.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on November 15, 2021, 03:58:14 PM
When the villain was utterly baffled by the suggestion that being an immortal fish mutant was something to be feared or despised.

Why do people keep saying that the Innsmouth fishmen are immortal? I don't think the story went into that much detail (the main dude just ran away and didn't stop to discuss their life cycle).
Main character's fish granny is stated to be 80,000 years old. Assuming the statement is reliable.

Even if they're not immortal, they live for spans that are unimaginable to the human mind.

The Shape of the Water, while a film is woke Cthulu if you want to see how that would be in practice.

Which is to say the monsters are all misunderstood and oppressed by evil 1950s governments.

I haven't seen it, but from what is known about Del Toro long suffering "At the Mountains of Madness" project, it will never take off because he wants an hard "R" rating, the bleak conclusion and $200m. Not even James Cameron's support lifted it off the ground (even if after "Terminator: Woke Fate" I'm unsure about the current mental stability of JC).

Re: Woke Cthulhu, the "Arkham Reporter" is not worried:



I assume that the Lovecraft mythos is "protected" by virtue of the fact that it's public domain and therefore no authority owns it and can be bullied into submission?

I like Hahn's analyses. The analysis of "The Dunwich Horror" was quite fascinating and terrifying. They're much more creative than anything in the Chaosium-propagated "canon."

She's thoughtful but I don't think she's reading stories all that closely based on her analysis of Dagon.

https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/lets-read-everything-howard-phillips-lovecraft-ever-wrote.19724/page-27#post-9769644

She seems to think that the narrator is reliable during his retelling of the tale and it matters if the creature is telepathic or not.

The narrator is insane. He's a complete drug addict, out of his drugs, about to kill himself, and imagining a giant creature's footsteps coming up the stairs and a creature's hand at the upstairs window.  Now it isn't clear that the character is still in San Francisco or not, but the description of the location sounds like an upstairs room or apartment in a city building. I think the appearance of such a creature, even in the  Tenderloin, would be unusual.
Nobody's perfect.

I find many of the analyses novel, as opposed to the "canon" promulgated by Chaosium.

The analysis of "The Whisperer in the Darkness" is pretty funny. The Chaosium canon takes the story at face value, but Hahn notes how the actual events are very silly and bizarre and basically read like HPL was trying to write an episode of Invader Zim.

Hahn gets a plus in my book precisely for NOT demonizing HPL as a literal hitler who needs to be erased from history. She notes several times that he was probably a loopy nutjob, but gives him the benefit of the doubt every time. Which is more than I can say for the wokies.

She doesn't describe the deep ones as a persecuted minority, as tempting as that is for wokies. She goes out of her way to explain their behavior in a way that doesn't reduce them to simple mooks, doesn't make them a persecuted minority, and doesn't make them funny looking humans or space elves.

The surrounding comments are full of chuckleheads who completely miss her points. She goes on for pages about how the deep ones behave in very inhuman and quite frankly irrational ways (they're repelled by swastikas for goodness' sake), but the peanuts gallery goes "hurr durr the fish people are a metaphor for blacks!"
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: rytrasmi on November 15, 2021, 05:03:13 PM
Lovecraft versus Woke can be summed up in a single image: man versus tentacle. Men are unlike tentacles. Men have rules to how they bend. Tentacles have no rules and don't understand that men have and need rules to thrive.

Lovecraft is the tentacle. Woke is the man. It is in the nature of men to fight tentacles, using craft. It is in the tentacle's nature to strangle men, using sheer strength of undulation.

Men tell themselves that history is a process of men winning against tentacles. Tentacles believe whatever they want to believe.

If Lovecraft was right, the tentacle will win in the end. If Lovecraft was wrong, men will win.

In other words, there is no psychological escape if you're a tentacle. Either you accept the full force of the meaninglessness of the cosmos, or you believe that justice and compassion are real, which, today, defaults to the world men make for themselves. Or, if a just and compassionate alternative to woke can be postulated and promulgated with sufficiently compelling cogency and passion, tentacles will permanently fall out of fashion, banished from the anthroponormative demesne.

Because of this I hypothesize that Lovecraft is doomed.
Most underrated comment right here.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on November 15, 2021, 06:10:23 PM
IMO, the main difference between Lovecraft and modern online progressivism is that one believes in the meaninglessness of the universe and the eventual extinction or transformation of humanity into inhuman, amoral, immortal creatures. Lovecraft, by contrast, didn't think that was a good thing. :)
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: PsyXypher on November 15, 2021, 11:43:57 PM
IMO, the main difference between Lovecraft and modern online progressivism is that one believes in the meaninglessness of the universe and the eventual extinction or transformation of humanity into inhuman, amoral, immortal creatures. Lovecraft, by contrast, didn't think that was a good thing. :)

I'm gonna quote that in the future.  ;D
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on November 18, 2021, 06:45:59 PM
I think of "The Shape of Water" as an Abe Sapien movie from Mike Mignola's universe (Hellboy, etc.). In fact, I suspect it might have had a subtitle to that effect before final release, or would not be surprised if it did. There is a lot of Abe Sapien comics similarities.

Whereas I think of The Shape of Water as an unofficial prequel to Pacific Rim, based on the fact that the River Man has exactly the same kind of blue-glowing veins as the Kaiju; I think that the River Man is actually from the Kaiju-Builders' dimension, and when he took Elisa home he crossed back over there -- where his kin promptly saw Elisa as the monster and him as the mentally ill paraphiliac, captured and tortured Elisa, found out about our dimension and started plotting invasion.

"So I hope you're happy, Elisa," I think to myself, "because your willingness to give up on your own species is going to get millions of us killed."  ;D
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on November 18, 2021, 07:14:17 PM
More seriously, I don't think you can be-Woken Cthulhu, any more than you could "Christianize" it. As I've said before, the entire point of cosmic horror is the moral meaninglessness of the universe, and Wokism is all about its moral judgements.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on November 18, 2021, 07:48:04 PM
More seriously, I don't think you can be-Woken Cthulhu, any more than you could "Christianize" it. As I've said before, the entire point of cosmic horror is the moral meaninglessness of the universe, and Wokism is all about its moral judgements.

   You can Christianize Lovecraft ... but you have to assume Lovecraft was fundamentally wrong about things. The recent novel Providence Blue by David Pinault takes one approach to this, and I've been tempted to juxtapose the opening paragraph of "The Call of Cthulhu" with a line from Tolkien's unpublished The Notion Club Papers: "There's lying in the universe--very subtle lying."
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on November 18, 2021, 07:57:42 PM
You can Christianize Lovecraft ... but you have to assume Lovecraft was fundamentally wrong about things.

Well, sure. But again, that's missing the whole point of that kind of cosmic horror. "Fear of Hell" and "Fear of No Hell" (to use GURPS Horror's terms) are both terrifying things to contemplate but they're not the same thing.

Which is not to say I wouldn't read or enjoy a story that used Mythos-style trappings in the service of Christian themes. But I wouldn't get the same kind of frisson out of it that I do from "At the Mountains of Madness" or the movie The Void.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Spinachcat on November 18, 2021, 11:36:20 PM
Don't game with wokists and don't buy the shit made by wokists.


Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: palaeomerus on November 18, 2021, 11:44:02 PM
More seriously, I don't think you can be-Woken Cthulhu, any more than you could "Christianize" it. As I've said before, the entire point of cosmic horror is the moral meaninglessness of the universe, and Wokism is all about its moral judgements.

You can argue about authenticity but it has been rolled into other formats. Brian Lumley did several corny almost smarmy penny dreadful style adventure romance books set in his own version of the Lovecraft mythos. Kind of H. R. Haggard meets Dennis Wheatley meets the Lost World by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on November 19, 2021, 12:20:35 AM
You can argue about authenticity but it has been rolled into other formats.

Absolutely. Again, it's a question of trappings vs. themes. For cosmic horror all you really need is something that drives home the immensity, weirdness or incomprehensibility of the universe, and the smallness and irrelevance of mankind, in a way that makes all our lives seem pointless.

The Mythos's imagery of shapeless tentacled monsters and genetic degradation are particular trappings to that end: you can put them in stories without hitting the same themes, and you can hit those themes without using those trappings.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: FingerRod on November 19, 2021, 06:27:14 AM
Any experience around here with Cthulhu Hack? Looks like 2e is being kickstarted.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on November 19, 2021, 10:58:50 AM
Again, it's a question of trappings vs. themes. For cosmic horror all you really need is something that drives home the immensity, weirdness or incomprehensibility of the universe, and the smallness and irrelevance of mankind, in a way that makes all our lives seem pointless.
A basic science class on geography or astrology? Or even economics or psychology?
I find cosmic horror has lost almost all of its edge in modern times.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Darrin Kelley on November 19, 2021, 11:12:08 AM
I don't think it is possible to make Cthulhu Woke and stay true to the fiction Lovecraft produced.

Lovecraft was a bigot. It informed a lot of his writing. For good or ill. But he did give birth to a particular kind of horror.

Cosmic horror can be done better these days. New authors can use the basic themes Lovecraft originated to create something new. And honestly? They should.

I just don't think rewriting Call Of Cthulhu is the correct approach. I believe it should be left as it is. Flaws and all. So future generations can learn from it.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Banjo Destructo on November 19, 2021, 01:25:42 PM
More seriously, I don't think you can be-Woken Cthulhu, any more than you could "Christianize" it. As I've said before, the entire point of cosmic horror is the moral meaninglessness of the universe, and Wokism is all about its moral judgements.

To horrify "woke" people who play.

You found out that the deep ones had established the patriarchy and systemic racism that plagues your community, but during the stunningly brave confrontation you planned you were captured by the society. Now you awaken in a chamber full of candles and strange apparatuses, with a mirror infront of you that slowly comes into focus as you get a grip of the situation you realize... you've been mutated into a white male! Your urge to fight for justice drains from you as this new persona takes over your mind, as you reach over and grab a briefcase, ready to head out and get a job, get married, and have lots of kids that you were previously not planning on doing because of overpopulation
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Abraxus on November 19, 2021, 01:35:03 PM
I actually like the Brian Lumkey stories as after awhile the overall “ we’re doomed I tell you doomed against Cthulhu and his minions, coupled with how Lovecraft makes governments responses to. The zmythis completely clues and inept annoying.
 

Sure humanity is fucked against the Mythos..nothing says a person can’t empty both gauges into ole squid eye face either.

A little to heavy in the Elder sign aspect for sure I actually liked humanity fighting back rather than be fucking  utterly us against the Mythos 

Same thing with the Lsundry series of novels. Humanity or at least major governments are not going to sit by and do nothing again incursions from the Mythos
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on November 19, 2021, 01:58:07 PM
A basic science class on geography or astrology? Or even economics or psychology?
I find cosmic horror has lost almost all of its edge in modern times.

A lot of it, yeah. A key part of why Lovecraft and cosmic horror packed such a punch is that a critical part of it is loss of faith, and we live in a largely faithless age. The abyss of nihilism is only terrifying to those still trying not to fall into it.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on November 19, 2021, 02:22:41 PM
A basic science class on geography or astrology? Or even economics or psychology?
I find cosmic horror has lost almost all of its edge in modern times.

A lot of it, yeah. A key part of why Lovecraft and cosmic horror packed such a punch is that a critical part of it is loss of faith, and we live in a largely faithless age. The abyss of nihilism is only terrifying to those still trying not to fall into it.

   I've theorized that Lovecraft only really 'works' as intended for a 20th century audience. Previous centuries in the Anglosphere were generally too confident in God and the rationality of the universe, and most of his 21st century audience takes the meaninglessness for granted, if not as a positive good. (See my crack about Internet Progressives above.)
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: jhkim on November 19, 2021, 02:29:40 PM
I don't think it is possible to make Cthulhu Woke and stay true to the fiction Lovecraft produced.

Lovecraft was a bigot. It informed a lot of his writing. For good or ill. But he did give birth to a particular kind of horror.

Cosmic horror can be done better these days. New authors can use the basic themes Lovecraft originated to create something new. And honestly? They should.

I just don't think rewriting Call Of Cthulhu is the correct approach. I believe it should be left as it is. Flaws and all. So future generations can learn from it.

The Call of Cthulhu RPG has never been very true to the fiction that Lovecraft produced. It's always been a horror RPG that draws some of the trappings of Lovecraft and some of the themes, but also from Lumley and other writers and its own approach. Further, over the decades there have been a lot of different variants that mix Lovecraft's writing with other sources and genres -- like Delta Green (mixing in flying saucer mythology), Victorian horror, Pulp Cthulhu, and many others.

For example, with regard to the Deep Ones...  In Pulp Cthulhu, it's about square-jawed American heroes punching out Nazis and the horrors like Deep One they work with - clear good vs evil fight. That's obviously and intentionally opposed to Lovecraft's cosmic horror, in my opinion.

Lovecraft's stories aren't about good humans fighting against the evil monsters. He much more often had that the horror was that the evil was all around us all the time, and that humans themselves were evil and/or monsters themselves.

In the last CoC campaign that I GMed, I took an approach opposite to Pulp Cthulhu. The game was set in an alternate 1940s just after the Deep War, a devastating worldwide war with the Deep Ones. Part of the idea here was that players didn't have to play dumb, because the PCs knew about Lovecraftian horrors. In the Deep War, the Allies were the great naval powers: the U.S., Britain, Germany, and Japan. The Soviets and the Chinese were neutral. This had a much more uncomfortable feel, as the U.S. had a reluctant alliance with Nazi Germany. The Nazis had a particular hatred of Deep Ones as they produced mixed-race abominations. I think this was closer to Lovecraft's writing than Pulp Cthulhu, though it also had its own take.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: S'mon on November 19, 2021, 02:39:48 PM
This had a much more uncomfortable feel, as the U.S. had a reluctant alliance with Nazi Germany. The Nazis had a particular hatred of Deep Ones as they produced mixed-race abominations. I think this was closer to Lovecraft's writing than Pulp Cthulhu, though it also had its own take.

If you really want to be uncomfortable you'd have the Pure Aryan Nazis fighting the Miscegenating Deep Ones & their British, American & Soviet Allies...

You could soften it a bit by having the Nazis allied to eg the Great Race of Yith, or maybe the Mi-Go.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Reckall on November 19, 2021, 04:09:36 PM
I don't think it is possible to make Cthulhu Woke and stay true to the fiction Lovecraft produced.

Lovecraft was a bigot. It informed a lot of his writing. For good or ill. But he did give birth to a particular kind of horror.

Cosmic horror can be done better these days. New authors can use the basic themes Lovecraft originated to create something new. And honestly? They should.

Ending up producing anti-semitic dreck. Which, in a way, is beyond funny ;D

https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-does-hbos-anti-racist-lovecraft-country-stumble-into-anti-semitic-tropes/

Quote
Quote
I just don't think rewriting Call Of Cthulhu is the correct approach. I believe it should be left as it is. Flaws and all. So future generations can learn from it.

The Call of Cthulhu RPG has never been very true to the fiction that Lovecraft produced. It's always been a horror RPG that draws some of the trappings of Lovecraft and some of the themes, but also from Lumley and other writers and its own approach.

Well, it depends. There is a s**t-ton of material produced for CoC, and one of the strengths of the game is that you can choose your inspiration - from R.E. Howard to M.R. James. A friend of mine, back in the day, ran a "Necroscope" campaign using CoC.

Also, it is often forgotten that Lovecraft wrote straight horror too (stories where the characters were nuked anyway). Not every adventure must be "cosmic horror" - as long as it has a strong theme of madness and delusional beliefs about how the World works. Characters like the Archaeologist at the end of M.R.James' "Oh, Whistle, and I'll Come to You My Lad" start with hubris and end up permanently scarred. I could ran that short story as a one-evening CoC adventure and it would work wonderfully.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: SHARK on November 19, 2021, 05:14:17 PM
Greetings!

HBO's program "Lovecraft Country" is fucking racist garbage, full of scum.

Like the article says--all the white characters in the program are depicted as evil cultists, racist sheriffs, or racist, cross-burning neighbors.

Why not make a program where all of the black characters are criminal thugs, degenerate whores, or violent, racist activists?

I'm sure that a program like THAT would have hordes of people having seizures of rage.

But it is just fine and dandy to have a program where all of the white characters are depicted as evil cultists, racist sheriffs, or cross-burning, racist neighbors.

"Lovecraft Country" can fucking choke on napalm.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: Abraxus on November 19, 2021, 06:21:40 PM
Lovecraft Country was canceled so their will be no sr one season.
Title: Re: Woking Cthulhu?
Post by: jhkim on November 23, 2021, 02:31:14 PM
This had a much more uncomfortable feel, as the U.S. had a reluctant alliance with Nazi Germany. The Nazis had a particular hatred of Deep Ones as they produced mixed-race abominations. I think this was closer to Lovecraft's writing than Pulp Cthulhu, though it also had its own take.

If you really want to be uncomfortable you'd have the Pure Aryan Nazis fighting the Miscegenating Deep Ones & their British, American & Soviet Allies...

You could soften it a bit by having the Nazis allied to eg the Great Race of Yith, or maybe the Mi-Go.

I have trouble picturing the U.S. doing that. Uncomfortableness comes from how well it fits with both Lovecraft's writing and history. In my game, the Deep War started from a series of escalations including the American bombing of a Deep One city in 1931 (i.e. the ending of Shadow Over Innsmouth). As our real-world alliance with the Soviets showed, having a common enemy can make for differing alliances. Also in the setting, the U.S., Germany, and Japan all had secret research and/or diplomacy with various other forces like the Yithians or Mi-Go.

Pulp Cthulhu emphasizes fighting a foreign evil enemy, as do a lot of standard Cthulhu adventures -- but a lot of Lovecraft's stories took place in his own backyard of New England - where the horror is what's hidden in one's own community or even one's own self.


The Call of Cthulhu RPG has never been very true to the fiction that Lovecraft produced. It's always been a horror RPG that draws some of the trappings of Lovecraft and some of the themes, but also from Lumley and other writers and its own approach.

Well, it depends. There is a s**t-ton of material produced for CoC, and one of the strengths of the game is that you can choose your inspiration - from R.E. Howard to M.R. James. A friend of mine, back in the day, ran a "Necroscope" campaign using CoC.

Also, it is often forgotten that Lovecraft wrote straight horror too (stories where the characters were nuked anyway). Not every adventure must be "cosmic horror" - as long as it has a strong theme of madness and delusional beliefs about how the World works. Characters like the Archaeologist at the end of M.R.James' "Oh, Whistle, and I'll Come to You My Lad" start with hubris and end up permanently scarred. I could ran that short story as a one-evening CoC adventure and it would work wonderfully.

Agreed that Call of Cthulhu has a variety of different styles of sourcebooks and adventures, and that likewise Lovecraft had some variety of the sort of stories he wrote. But there is little if any overlap. Even Lovecraft's non-cosmic stories generally aren't gameable directly. One can adapt parts of his stories - especially his background and monsters, but the general focus is different.

Even over the variety of Lovecraft's stories - pulp "war on monsters" isn't a part of his range.