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Author Topic: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke  (Read 22660 times)

DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #90 on: November 01, 2022, 07:06:32 PM »
You know you have a bad take when even a theist has to step in to point out exactly how dumb you make yourself and this entire community look when you say you think morality/ethics are objective, man alive.

This is just patently false on every conceivable level. Cultures define their own morality, laws, ethics, and they vary WILDLY across the globe and NOBODY has anything anywhere CLOSE to proof of divine right or authority to assert that the values of the culture they live in/fight for are universally true and correct, full stop. Anything short of this is going full mask-off advocating for their personal culture being in every way superior/correct/divine and "their people" being the chosen people of some higher power, you know in other words, fundamental religious terrorist shit. Feel free to push back if this is the hill you want to die on go right ahead, the local three-letter-agency monitor would, I'm SURE be happy to add it to the pile of evidence that this place harbors dangerous and mentally unstable extremists.

If you believe otherwise then you seriously need either a proper education, therapy, or public humiliation, and in Pundit's case all three are DESPERATELY in order, all offense meant.

Cat the Bounty Smuggler

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #91 on: November 01, 2022, 08:52:13 PM »
You know you have a bad take when even a theist has to step in to point out exactly how dumb you make yourself and this entire community look when you say you think morality/ethics are objective, man alive.

This is just patently false on every conceivable level. Cultures define their own morality, laws, ethics, and they vary WILDLY across the globe and NOBODY has anything anywhere CLOSE to proof of divine right or authority to assert that the values of the culture they live in/fight for are universally true and correct, full stop. Anything short of this is going full mask-off advocating for their personal culture being in every way superior/correct/divine and "their people" being the chosen people of some higher power, you know in other words, fundamental religious terrorist shit. Feel free to push back if this is the hill you want to die on go right ahead, the local three-letter-agency monitor would, I'm SURE be happy to add it to the pile of evidence that this place harbors dangerous and mentally unstable extremists.

If you believe otherwise then you seriously need either a proper education, therapy, or public humiliation, and in Pundit's case all three are DESPERATELY in order, all offense meant.

So your argument is that that believing in objective morality is evil. Ok, then.

Your reasoning is so laughably flawed it's barely worth arguing against, but a few points:

  • If morality is not objective, then the things you're talking about aren't objectively bad.
  • Just like with anything else, you can believe there are objectively-true propositions in ethics without believing your culture has a perfect understanding of the matter.
  • You can believe your culture's values are superior to some other culture's values in some ways without believing your culture is better in all ways, let alone that you need to kill them.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2022, 08:56:21 PM by Cat the Bounty Smuggler »

Zelen

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #92 on: November 01, 2022, 10:01:30 PM »
Obvious troll is obvious. There's really no point in engaging with some of these people.

MeganovaStella

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #93 on: November 01, 2022, 10:03:42 PM »
You know you have a bad take when even a theist has to step in to point out exactly how dumb you make yourself and this entire community look when you say you think morality/ethics are objective, man alive.

This is just patently false on every conceivable level. Cultures define their own morality, laws, ethics, and they vary WILDLY across the globe and NOBODY has anything anywhere CLOSE to proof of divine right or authority to assert that the values of the culture they live in/fight for are universally true and correct, full stop. Anything short of this is going full mask-off advocating for their personal culture being in every way superior/correct/divine and "their people" being the chosen people of some higher power, you know in other words, fundamental religious terrorist shit. Feel free to push back if this is the hill you want to die on go right ahead, the local three-letter-agency monitor would, I'm SURE be happy to add it to the pile of evidence that this place harbors dangerous and mentally unstable extremists.

If you believe otherwise then you seriously need either a proper education, therapy, or public humiliation, and in Pundit's case all three are DESPERATELY in order, all offense meant.

So your argument is that that believing in objective morality is evil. Ok, then.

Your reasoning is so laughably flawed it's barely worth arguing against, but a few points:

  • If morality is not objective, then the things you're talking about aren't objectively bad.
  • Just like with anything else, you can believe there are objectively-true propositions in ethics without believing your culture has a perfect understanding of the matter.
  • You can believe your culture's values are superior to some other culture's values in some ways without believing your culture is better in all ways, let alone that you need to kill them.

Firstly, his point was that if you believe in objective morality then you might peform actions that he doesn't like. And that not many people would like.  To the level of killing you...which is not good or bad independent of human cognition.

Secondly, you can believe that there's a objectively true morality outside of societies. Doesn't make you true. As he said, there have been millions of moral systems invented during the course of humanity and none of them have been refuted (save for those that contradict themselves). Morality deals with the subjective, not the objective.

Thirdly, if you're not a theist (if you are then you have almost no problem) then objective morality becomes extremely hard to prove.

An example:

"Objective morality exists" you say

"Based on what" the other person says

"Based on these moral principles" you respond

"Why should we follow them and why do you assume they exist outside of any society? Isnt morality a human construct?"

"We should follow them because it's good to and they exist because I said so"

"So you're gonna override the millions of cultures that aren't yours? And you expect 'I said so' to be a good excuse? You don't even believe in a God or gods. Why should I listen to someone who thinks that his thoughts are magic?"

"Because you should."

"You're dumb."


MeganovaStella

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #94 on: November 01, 2022, 10:04:01 PM »
Obvious troll is obvious. There's really no point in engaging with some of these people.

Who are the trolls here?

SHARK

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #95 on: November 02, 2022, 12:52:25 AM »
Greetings!

Objective Truth exists. Absolute values of right and wrong, good and evil. This is reality whether the atheists and God-haters reee and deny it. Judgement Day will see them cast into Hell in wrath and judgement for their blasphemies and rebellion.

I love the TRUTH within the King James Bible. One of my favourite versions is "The Common Man" King James Bible. Beautiful, fine cover, very nice pages, excellent features. It beautifully presents God's Word. The BIBLE is like a "Lamp unto your feet".

I encourage everyone to get a good Bible, and prayerfully and humbly read the Bible and be therefore enlightened.

As for morality in the D&D game, well, Gygax was a Christian, and many of the developers and writers as well. So, I am not surprised that a frame work of absolute values and a loosely based Christian morality exists within the game. It's also classic medieval stuff, so it seems essential to me.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
« Last Edit: November 02, 2022, 12:54:50 AM by SHARK »
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jeff37923

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #96 on: November 02, 2022, 11:52:41 AM »

As for morality in the D&D game, well, Gygax was a Christian, and many of the developers and writers as well. So, I am not surprised that a frame work of absolute values and a loosely based Christian morality exists within the game. It's also classic medieval stuff, so it seems essential to me.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

IMHO, for this discussion is to be meaningful, then we need to be talking about the demonstrated morality of the woke D&D fans that are screwing up the game for everyone else.
"Meh."

Svenhelgrim

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #97 on: November 02, 2022, 04:57:27 PM »
Good and evil are not subjective.  There are behaviors that are universaly preferable.  For example: people do not want to be lied to.  They might be okay with lying to others, but that would determine whether or not they are a good person or an evil one.  But the act of lying is universally evil.

I will prove it with an example: An armed murderer is after your friend with the intent of killing him.  He asks you where he can find your friend. Let us suppose that he lies to you and says he does not intend to harm your friend, but you have witnessed him trying to murder your friend in the past and deduce that the murderer is lying. If you lie to him about your friend’s location, you are trying to save a life, or possibly two lives since the armed murderer may harm you if you refuse to answer.  However, the murderer, does not wish to be lied to, therefore he regards anyone lying to him as bad. 

Therefore lying is regarded as evil, even by liars.  If everyone regards lying as evil, then it must be objectively true since the preference is universal. 
« Last Edit: November 02, 2022, 05:11:55 PM by Svenhelgrim »

Fheredin

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #98 on: November 02, 2022, 05:24:41 PM »
You know you have a bad take when even a theist has to step in to point out exactly how dumb you make yourself and this entire community look when you say you think morality/ethics are objective, man alive.

This is just patently false on every conceivable level. Cultures define their own morality, laws, ethics, and they vary WILDLY across the globe and NOBODY has anything anywhere CLOSE to proof of divine right or authority to assert that the values of the culture they live in/fight for are universally true and correct, full stop. Anything short of this is going full mask-off advocating for their personal culture being in every way superior/correct/divine and "their people" being the chosen people of some higher power, you know in other words, fundamental religious terrorist shit. Feel free to push back if this is the hill you want to die on go right ahead, the local three-letter-agency monitor would, I'm SURE be happy to add it to the pile of evidence that this place harbors dangerous and mentally unstable extremists.

If you believe otherwise then you seriously need either a proper education, therapy, or public humiliation, and in Pundit's case all three are DESPERATELY in order, all offense meant.

This is basically an argument that because something exists, therefore it is good, or at least morally neutral. It fundamentally does not understand how ethical arguments work.

I admire Japanese culture quite a bit, but Shintoism is fundamentally a religion which values honor and denies human life as being special. That is a really bad combination. This is why the 47 samurai are a national myth of Japan, but it's also the reason Japan resorted to kamikazi tactics in World War II and to this day can't look its own past war crimes in the face.

By the reverse token, American public schools often proclaim the victimized status of Native Americans. And that definitely was true to some extent. But it's also true that horses are native to North America and that Native Americans hunted horses to extinction. They had to be reintroduced by Europeans. Native Americans also had technologically stalled at late stone-age and while their armed conflicts with each other were rarely (directly) fatal, they usually resulted in the losing tribe being banished from good hunting, fishing, or farming grounds and starving. In terms of pre-Columbian American history, the Trail of Tears is not that special; it's only historically remarkably because a lot of tribes were shoved together...and because it was done by a white guy (Andrew Jackson). The European-descended colonists typically tried to do better and do regret it today. A Native American tribe displacing another tribe would not have tried to do better and would never have regretted it.

My point is that cultures are by their nature hypocritical and terrible sources of moral values. I am not saying that culture has no value, but that in a good situation morality and culture are at right angles to each other, and often outright conflict.

RPGPundit

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #99 on: November 02, 2022, 06:35:24 PM »
You know you have a bad take when even a theist has to step in to point out exactly how dumb you make yourself and this entire community look when you say you think morality/ethics are objective, man alive.

This is just patently false on every conceivable level. Cultures define their own morality, laws, ethics, and they vary WILDLY across the globe and NOBODY has anything anywhere CLOSE to proof of divine right or authority to assert that the values of the culture they live in/fight for are universally true and correct, full stop. Anything short of this is going full mask-off advocating for their personal culture being in every way superior/correct/divine and "their people" being the chosen people of some higher power, you know in other words, fundamental religious terrorist shit. Feel free to push back if this is the hill you want to die on go right ahead, the local three-letter-agency monitor would, I'm SURE be happy to add it to the pile of evidence that this place harbors dangerous and mentally unstable extremists.

If you believe otherwise then you seriously need either a proper education, therapy, or public humiliation, and in Pundit's case all three are DESPERATELY in order, all offense meant.

This is basically an argument that because something exists, therefore it is good, or at least morally neutral. It fundamentally does not understand how ethical arguments work.

I admire Japanese culture quite a bit, but Shintoism is fundamentally a religion which values honor and denies human life as being special. That is a really bad combination. This is why the 47 samurai are a national myth of Japan, but it's also the reason Japan resorted to kamikazi tactics in World War II and to this day can't look its own past war crimes in the face.

By the reverse token, American public schools often proclaim the victimized status of Native Americans. And that definitely was true to some extent. But it's also true that horses are native to North America and that Native Americans hunted horses to extinction. They had to be reintroduced by Europeans. Native Americans also had technologically stalled at late stone-age and while their armed conflicts with each other were rarely (directly) fatal, they usually resulted in the losing tribe being banished from good hunting, fishing, or farming grounds and starving. In terms of pre-Columbian American history, the Trail of Tears is not that special; it's only historically remarkably because a lot of tribes were shoved together...and because it was done by a white guy (Andrew Jackson). The European-descended colonists typically tried to do better and do regret it today. A Native American tribe displacing another tribe would not have tried to do better and would never have regretted it.

My point is that cultures are by their nature hypocritical and terrible sources of moral values. I am not saying that culture has no value, but that in a good situation morality and culture are at right angles to each other, and often outright conflict.


"When people are in harmony with the Tao, everyone follows the natural way. When people are not in harmony with the Tao, you need government."
-Lao Tzu

In other word, "Culture" is not the source of Morality. Rather, culture is the codification of Morality, which means that it is a way that morality is often distorted from its original foundation (hardwired into the human experience) by successive legalism and bureaucratization of morality, until 'contemporary cultural  morality' can end up being the opposite of what real morality intends.  Example: 2022 Western Civilization.
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Osman Gazi

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #100 on: November 02, 2022, 06:45:30 PM »
You know you have a bad take when even a theist has to step in to point out exactly how dumb you make yourself and this entire community look when you say you think morality/ethics are objective, man alive.

This is just patently false on every conceivable level. Cultures define their own morality, laws, ethics, and they vary WILDLY across the globe and NOBODY has anything anywhere CLOSE to proof of divine right or authority to assert that the values of the culture they live in/fight for are universally true and correct, full stop. Anything short of this is going full mask-off advocating for their personal culture being in every way superior/correct/divine and "their people" being the chosen people of some higher power, you know in other words, fundamental religious terrorist shit. Feel free to push back if this is the hill you want to die on go right ahead, the local three-letter-agency monitor would, I'm SURE be happy to add it to the pile of evidence that this place harbors dangerous and mentally unstable extremists.

If you believe otherwise then you seriously need either a proper education, therapy, or public humiliation, and in Pundit's case all three are DESPERATELY in order, all offense meant.

This is basically an argument that because something exists, therefore it is good, or at least morally neutral. It fundamentally does not understand how ethical arguments work.

I admire Japanese culture quite a bit, but Shintoism is fundamentally a religion which values honor and denies human life as being special. That is a really bad combination. This is why the 47 samurai are a national myth of Japan, but it's also the reason Japan resorted to kamikazi tactics in World War II and to this day can't look its own past war crimes in the face.

By the reverse token, American public schools often proclaim the victimized status of Native Americans. And that definitely was true to some extent. But it's also true that horses are native to North America and that Native Americans hunted horses to extinction. They had to be reintroduced by Europeans. Native Americans also had technologically stalled at late stone-age and while their armed conflicts with each other were rarely (directly) fatal, they usually resulted in the losing tribe being banished from good hunting, fishing, or farming grounds and starving. In terms of pre-Columbian American history, the Trail of Tears is not that special; it's only historically remarkably because a lot of tribes were shoved together...and because it was done by a white guy (Andrew Jackson). The European-descended colonists typically tried to do better and do regret it today. A Native American tribe displacing another tribe would not have tried to do better and would never have regretted it.

My point is that cultures are by their nature hypocritical and terrible sources of moral values. I am not saying that culture has no value, but that in a good situation morality and culture are at right angles to each other, and often outright conflict.

The bolded words demonstrate that you're using your own particular moral framework to judge another culture's ethics as being "bad" or "good" or "worse" or "better".  The Japanese soldier in WW II or Comanche in the 19th century aren't likely to agree with your assessment.  Your culture doesn't rest in some kind of authoritative space that renders it an objective standard to which all other standards of right and wrong can be measured...well, you might consider it 'objective', but I'm sure the Japanese and the Comanche would view their own the same way.

The question is if there is a standard outside of culture--a divine (or even natural) source of "moral law"--'laws' that differ from natural law in that they can be defied and there are no immediate consequences for doing so.  I accept a standard rooted in a particular theistic view that others might view as simply the cultural product of seventh-century Arabia...just as I might not accept any reality behind the Shinto gods and godesses outside of Japanese culture.

Cultures might be 'terrible' sources of morality, but every single moral standard that we have exists embedded in a particular culture.  The Quran, the Bible, Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche, Marx, Genghis Khan--they all arose from a particular cultural milieu.  Modern moral philosophers may be aware of more historical examples of various systems than others, and might even render some judgment on the ability of various moral systems to deliver what they promise...but calling one system 'better' or 'worse' is really just revealing that thinker's opinion (which is likely heavily influenced by and formed in their own cultural experience.)  Of course, I think my viewpoint's right and in alignment with the Creator of the Cosmos...but others can and do disagree.

As for the naturalistic fallacy--yes, that can happen, if one says "I can't judge any cultural standard of right and wrong as "good" or "evil" because whatever is, is good (a la Alexander Pope).  No; it's entirely possible for one to judge the moral goodness of another culture or of one's actions based upon some standard--their own standard, your standard, a philosophical framework (e.g., consequentialism).  That doesn't change the fact that actions we might consider "evil" exist.  That's a given.  Nature (or Nature's God) permit their existence...which of course leads to the age-old question "the problem of evil" which theistically has been addressed countless times (though not everyone agrees on the solution, even proposed by their co-religionists.

And FWIW, I think judging Native American morality on what their ancestors did to horses 10,000 years ago is a bit weird--like judging modern European moral standards based upon the bones found in Europe that indicate some early Europeans were cannibalistic.  Heck, we don't even judge Germans of today for crimes done less than a century ago.

Osman Gazi

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #101 on: November 02, 2022, 06:59:14 PM »
"When people are in harmony with the Tao, everyone follows the natural way. When people are not in harmony with the Tao, you need government."
-Lao Tzu

In other word, "Culture" is not the source of Morality. Rather, culture is the codification of Morality, which means that it is a way that morality is often distorted from its original foundation (hardwired into the human experience) by successive legalism and bureaucratization of morality, until 'contemporary cultural  morality' can end up being the opposite of what real morality intends.  Example: 2022 Western Civilization.

Mmm...I'd say law is the "codification" of morality (whether that's political or religious law), not culture.  Although law is an important part of culture--what it forbids and what it permits--it's not the sum total of it.  But perhaps that's just an unnecessarily distinction.

As far as what is "hardwired into the human experience"--well, I do believe in fitrah, where every human is born with an innate knowledge of God...but their family and culture can bend that original knowledge and twist it into unrecognizable things--some more reflective of that original state, others less so.  And I think--apart from which can be explained by simple evolutionary pressures--that much of what is common in ethical systems comes from this original fitrah.  And yes, I'd agree that modern post-Christian western civilization has gone very far astray from its fitrah.

KindaMeh

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #102 on: November 02, 2022, 07:39:55 PM »
I feel like even if objective as opposed to subjective morality weren’t real, if we assume no God/theism/magic, we’d really have no way to prove it. Cuz “objective shoulds” don’t have a material way to be detected unless there was like an all knowing divinity or magical detector that can somehow speak to us or something  in play. And so we’d be making an argument from ignorance to assume absence. Likewise that would mean making an assumption where there is no legit proof of absence, which I think might even violate Occam’s razor, cuz the simplest assertion here would be to be agnostic about moral truth, not to assume one way or another.

That said, even if it were real, with none of that magic stuff we’d never follow what we were supposed to do exactly, cuz the theoretical moral possibilities would be infinite. Any one path selected without exact guidance or a humanized morality creator would have a one over infinity chance of being the actual moral code or formula, and hence would not be.

That all said, I still believe WOTC are in the wrong, and while I doubt it will actually happen hope they will go broke and have to reconsider both their gameplay and attachment to the woke.

Omega

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #103 on: November 02, 2022, 08:42:25 PM »
Its rather hilarious. People here bitch incessantly about the horrible mean ol alignment. Then flip out when WOTC actually listens and sets out to kill it.

This is in part why I like BX and O D&D. Just Law, Neutral and Chaos. Anything and everything could be good, bad or indifferent depending on the encounter.

As said before. The problem is when the woke start acting as if open alignment is some great new thing that will vanquish the evil wacists out there.

Its the intent behind the action that poisons it.

Jam The MF

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #104 on: November 02, 2022, 09:22:09 PM »
I believe that universal absolute truth exists, but I can't find it in my D&D books; and I don't expect it to be there either.  A monotheistic RPG can be played.  Neither TSR, nor WOTC D&D have published such a game.  RPG Pundit has published a monotheistic RPG option.  Just sayin'.....
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