Quote from: Jaeger on November 30, 2022, 02:06:21 PM

Quote from: Dapig on November 30, 2022, 09:47:37 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on October 29, 2022, 05:22:38 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 29, 2022, 05:00:28 PM
...
So the main issue with these changes in D&D is that they're being implemented in a hamfisted and haphazard way, and apparently in the behest of a morally bankrupt ideology, more than the idea that the possibility of non-evil demons is such a ridiculous notion that it has never been considered by the majority of real life cultures and religions.

Well there is the fact that D&D was and is sold to a primarily western English speaking audience. Which has been culturally shaped by 2000 years of Christian morality, religious thought, and philosophy.

So to D&D's primary sales demographic; Yes, the idea of non-evil demons is a completely ridiculous notion based on post-modern retardery.

Wow.  Somebody gets it.

But the problem is this: the woke often hate themselves, the boomers and the privilege they have (not shitting selves in a dumpster is super privileged). So it follows that again, they want to tear down all that is not a modern creature cantina set in pseudo sort of medieval Star Trek settings.

And here I was hoping for holy swords, Morningstars delivered to my enemies and sacks with gold and gems.  I was off wanting to pretend adventure and forgot this is not about fun!  It's about a statement and changing the world one imaginary fairy at a time.

So disgusted.  So disappointed. 

Was ^this^ your intended reply?

I think you did a little cut/pate error when parsing the quotes. Which is easy enough to do... The format for quoting here is a very manual and not that good.

Yeah I was trying to reply to you and say you are spot on.  It is ok to want to play at pseudo European myth if you like to do so.  Putting evil orcs to the sword is naughty!  You never know which great orc poet you might be killing.

Somewhere along the way people who claim to like the hobby have changed their minds.  Some of this is so absurd as to be analogous to baseball fans hating strikes, fly outs and bases.

Go find another sport then? 

I have no issue with other civilizations in the world but the mandate of a creature cantina in every village is not "inclusive" but rather jarring and not immersive for me anyway.

And good demons?  The power of Christ invites you to tea?  Wtf

Quote from: Dapig on November 30, 2022, 02:47:55 PM
And good demons?  The power of Christ invites you to tea?  Wtf

  I strongly suspect that the quickest way to get yourself thrown out of current WotC-D&D fandom would be to unironically invoke Christ.

It is over on BGG.

Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 27, 2022, 04:20:50 AM
Did they even give a reason why that entire section was wiped?

I think they cut the section when the Zack accusations arose. i don't remember if they used that as a rational specifically or if that was my assumption.

I always figure a Demon or Devil will tell you they're good and misunderstood for just as long as you'll let them.

One of the best devil bits I've ever seen is the issue of New Mutants where Memphisto agrees to let them leave hell if Magma will go out with him.  So they're sitting in this cafe and he's explaining how he spends more money on African famine relief than any country because children don't go to hell.  Really,the whole issue was gold.  Poor guy's out of his league and out of his depth but he did get her number.

Quote from: Omega on November 30, 2022, 03:54:38 PM
It is over on BGG.

I have no idea what you mean.  I have no context.  I don't even know if you mean something is over (as in finished) at Board Game Geek, or if it's over (like there) at BGG?  Can you explain?

Quote from: Ruprecht on November 30, 2022, 06:02:29 PM

Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 27, 2022, 04:20:50 AM
Did they even give a reason why that entire section was wiped?

I think they cut the section when the Zack accusations arose. i don't remember if they used that as a rational specifically or if that was my assumption.

The Consultant section?
Yes they seem to have used that as an excuse to remove mention of all of them. Have bot seen the entry in later print runs and they even removed them from the basic rules along the way?

Quote from: Cathode Ray on November 30, 2022, 08:56:02 PM

Quote from: Omega on November 30, 2022, 03:54:38 PM
It is over on BGG.

I have no idea what you mean.  I have no context.  I don't even know if you mean something is over (as in finished) at Board Game Geek, or if it's over (like there) at BGG?  Can you explain?

Meant that over on BGG they can and have done things like banning or temp banning you for mentioning Jesus or just saying anything they disapprove of today.

Quote from: Omega on November 30, 2022, 10:22:04 PM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on November 30, 2022, 08:56:02 PM

Quote from: Omega on November 30, 2022, 03:54:38 PM
It is over on BGG.

I have no idea what you mean.  I have no context.  I don't even know if you mean something is over (as in finished) at Board Game Geek, or if it's over (like there) at BGG?  Can you explain?

Meant that over on BGG they can and have done things like banning or temp banning you for mentioning Jesus or just saying anything they disapprove of today.

Understood now!  I'm proudly banned from that bastion of fascism!

I'd love for WotC to go broke, but I don't see it happening.

Their digital initiative for D&D 6e makes sense.

5e appealed to the SJW freaks who became shamdemic shut-ins and finally, groups of misfits could gather on Zoom & Roll20 without anyone complaining about their frightful stank. 

GenZ has so little social skills that remote digital gaming is as social as it gets for most of them who have been raised on MMOs and online mass player games. Once Meta gets their virtual world happening, D&D will be 50% digital larping and 50% screeching about micro-aggressions.

Thus D&D via a subscription model makes sense for the modern era. In fact, it's probably a gold mine if even done half-ass.

I've got zero interest because if I'm not gaming around a table, I have better things to do with my free time that I prefer to involve less screens, not more.

I don't really want them to go broke but I would like them to cull the excess consultants, manager, and woke scolds and get back to creating games.  Maybe let the D&D team play with online stuff while the rest resurrect campaign worlds or forgotten game.

Quote from: Mishihari on October 31, 2022, 04:59:53 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 31, 2022, 01:09:44 PM
Children aren't taught right and wrong from D&D alignment. My son grew up sometimes playing D&D and other RPGs, but while they were positive and creative, I think his moral center came from real-world living and instruction, and not at all from game mechanics. Neither D&D alignments nor the non-alignment-using mechanics of other RPGs were important either way in his learning to be a good person. I think trying to use D&D alignments to teach real-world morality is a bad idea, because the real world is vastly different than most D&D worlds.

I think your comment here misses the point.  Using vanilla D&D to teach actual morals would indeed be a bad idea.  However playing D&D, with its objective good and evil, accustoms and gives practice to kids in thinking in terms of right and wrong being important in making decisions,  and good and evil being objective.  That's all good IMO.

I've never seen an RPG influence anyone's moral worldview one way or the other, and attempting to use them for such is a fool's errand. Games are inherently about choice, and as such horrible tools for indoctrination.

Quote from: Mistwell on November 25, 2022, 01:03:16 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on November 24, 2022, 10:25:57 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on November 24, 2022, 09:55:59 PM
The 5e Player's Handbook is currently ranked #9 on Amazon in the nation for....all books of any kind.

But yeah tell me how it's going broke.

Maybe it's #9 because it's 69% off for a Black Friday sale?

I am sure that is the reason. And? With a new half-edition coming out you'd think everyone who wanted the PHB would have by now. Apparently not. It's now up to 8th in all books. That's a whole lot of books from the sale.

MM is number 15 in all books.

DMG is number 17 in all books.

Or maybe folks are buying the books because they're worried the new edition will suck, or not even be available in printed form, which granted I consider unlikely, but who knows. The main books will sell simply because they're core product identity. It's why every edition is based on the same three books.

Quote from: World_Warrior on October 27, 2022, 03:57:36 PM
I think the downfall of WOTC won't ever be their content, but requesting that their fanbase buy an entire new round of books again.

On the contrary alienating the old fanbase by releasing new editions has been #GamesWorkshop's profit making formula for years.

Quote from: Mishihari on November 21, 2022, 02:46:36 AM
Now if we could just persuade Elon Musk to buy ENWorld....

#EMWorld

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 31, 2022, 09:58:22 PM
I also think that Planescape is trash.

...you're dead to me.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on December 02, 2022, 04:45:06 PM
I've never seen an RPG influence anyone's moral worldview one way or the other, and attempting to use them for such is a fool's errand. Games are inherently about choice, and as such horrible tools for indoctrination.

GMing for 38 years, I can recall twice seeing a player having a kind of 'moral wake up call' where they saw things differently after experiencing the results of their PC's actions. So it can happen, but IME only rarely, and organically.

Quote from: S'mon on December 02, 2022, 05:51:13 PM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on December 02, 2022, 04:45:06 PM
I've never seen an RPG influence anyone's moral worldview one way or the other, and attempting to use them for such is a fool's errand. Games are inherently about choice, and as such horrible tools for indoctrination.

GMing for 38 years, I can recall twice seeing a player having a kind of 'moral wake up call' where they saw things differently after experiencing the results of their PC's actions. So it can happen, but IME only rarely, and organically.

Agreed. I would agree. I'm presuming that "organically" means that it comes from the situation in the game, and isn't a product of the alignment mechanics (for example).

I'm not sure that I've ever seen a "moral wake up call" - and I'd be curious what the circumstances were of the two moral wake up calls that you saw. I have had players confront dilemmas that made them think about what the right answer is, and I've seen confrontations where players genuinely argue over what's right.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on December 02, 2022, 04:45:06 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on October 31, 2022, 04:59:53 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 31, 2022, 01:09:44 PM
Children aren't taught right and wrong from D&D alignment. My son grew up sometimes playing D&D and other RPGs, but while they were positive and creative, I think his moral center came from real-world living and instruction, and not at all from game mechanics. Neither D&D alignments nor the non-alignment-using mechanics of other RPGs were important either way in his learning to be a good person. I think trying to use D&D alignments to teach real-world morality is a bad idea, because the real world is vastly different than most D&D worlds.

I think your comment here misses the point.  Using vanilla D&D to teach actual morals would indeed be a bad idea.  However playing D&D, with its objective good and evil, accustoms and gives practice to kids in thinking in terms of right and wrong being important in making decisions,  and good and evil being objective.  That's all good IMO.

I've never seen an RPG influence anyone's moral worldview one way or the other, and attempting to use them for such is a fool's errand. Games are inherently about choice, and as such horrible tools for indoctrination.

Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Things that influence sense of morality and worldview are generally subtle and slow acting