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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Jaeger on June 02, 2021, 08:51:26 PM

Title: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Jaeger on June 02, 2021, 08:51:26 PM
From this thread: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dumbest-thing-in-new-woke-ravenloft/180/

And, again, your theory is complete nonsense lacking even a shred of evidential support and in the realm of lunatic conspiracy theorist screaming about the end of the world on the street corner.

Here are I think the main issues at play here:

1) People here believe "Get Woke Go Broke" is a universal truth; and
2) People here believe WOTC has "Gotten Woke"; therefore
3) People here think WOTC will "Go Broke" (whatever that term means in this context).
.

Again with this?

Serving number three coming up:

1) "People here believe "Get Woke Go Broke" is a universal truth"   

We’ve already had this conversation:

Here: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/will-the-current-woke-environment-hasten-or-delay-a-wotc-commitment-to-6th-ed/msg1161368/#msg1161368

And here: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/dd-is-selling-great-why-not-sell-it-now/90/


2) "People here believe WOTC has "Gotten Woke"."

They hired Jessica Price for the nu-Ravenloft book. Q.E.D.


3) "People here think WOTC will "Go Broke" (whatever that term means in this context)."

Disingenuous again. You know full well from our past conversations on this issue in the links I provided in my answer to your first point exactly what context is being used.

You're just regurgitating your woke = not broke talking points on a loop tape now.


That being said; there are issues which will effect D&D’s woke demise.

Up until recently 5e has been very “woke lite”.  The woke in 5e has been at a low level for most of its run. Love of a decent edition of D&D in the post 4e world has overridden any pushback that minor woke inclusions might otherwise have brought. Only now with the last few books – and especially Ravenloft, do we see the woke dial starting to be turned up…

Remember that even in the case of the Superhero Comic book industry, and the Dr. Who tv show, it took a minimum of 5-7 years for them to go from their relative peak to woke collapse.

And I'm fairly safe in saying that 5e’s sales have not quite yet reached their peak. There is tremendous pop-culture inertia boosting D&D right now.

So at a minimum, once 5e’s peak selling point has been identified, we still have 5-7 years to watch the woke drive D&D into the ground.



And there are good reasons to believe that some unique features of the RPG market may lengthen that timeline.

1: RPG fans are very IP loyal. D&D fans will be very reluctant to abandon their beloved D&D for a non-woke competitor.

You can see this effect with the Pathfinder/4e situation. The instant D&D gave them a reason to come back with 5e, Pathfinder got buried in WOTC’s dust.


2: There is a big collector element in the RPG hobby. Whether or not the books get used or are even actually good, the relaxed release schedule WOTC has been following is tailor made for the ‘completists’ out there. Lots of book buying is happening just by IP collector inertia. (The Conan 2d20 game is a great example of this effect…)


3: D&D is the market leader. This is HUGE. See reasons 1&2!

With 4e WOTC created a viable competitor by accident with baizuo’s Pathfinder. But those same conditions are not around now. Plus baizuo is already woke as fuck, and IMHO mechanically going in the wrong direction to make a real impact into D&D when WOTC goes full woke. (Full woke is inevitable…)

Pathfinder was a very important check on 4e. It gave people an immediate, well supported alternative for playing “D&D” when 4e flung poo at itself. But baizuo as a company was in a unique position that made them essentially ready to go as a 4e competitor when that deuce dropped.

4e being straight up beat by 3e's clone was a big factor in the quick turnaround to 5e.


4: There is no current d20 RPG company on the horizon that is in a similar position to step into that viable competitor space when WOTC turns the woke dial to 11 and starts hating on its fanbase good and proper.

The cost of real competition is high. A full game + 3-6 supplements per year with great production values. It’s a tall fucking order...

People love their D&D, and they will walk away without a viable alternative rather than switch to a system like WHFRP.


I think that without a viable alternative to a future woke-as-fuck 6e D&D. WOTC will start to do to the RPG industry what DC and Marvel have done to American superhero comics.

I believe that D&D's recent growth has been on such a scale that they could lose half of the current fanbase and still be the #1 selling RPG by a comfortable margin. And as long as SJW's can point to a WOKE D&D being the #1 RPG; they will continually declare complete and total victory.

And no, we cannot count on them learning their lesson once sales start to plummet.

We need to keep in mind that Marvel comics is still the "number one" superhero comics publisher in a woke-collapsed industry.

And as of March 2021 they still think this is a good idea:
https://nerdist.com/article/marvel-introduces-lgbtq-captain-america-in-new-series/
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: FingerRod on June 02, 2021, 09:36:28 PM
I also felt that Ravenloft 5e was a turning point. I pointed out ratings on Amazon in the first thread you linked. And while Ravenloft started out with super low ratings, it has normalized. So much so that it looks like it will be a huge commercial success. So, in that, I was wrong. It seems the average consumer has not yet flipped a switch on WOTC.

I did have an exchange with Mistwell in that thread. After looking at posting history, I now realize this individual has no interest in honest conversation. Lesson learned, but I will not waste moving forward. Their approach to this community and conversation is dishonest.

While I was wrong about the overall TTRPG community reaction to Ravenloft, I firmly believe this is the crack in the foundation. They are at a tipping point and they show no signs of being able to help themselves.

But then I look at the other products out there. Outside of Pundit and a couple others, it is all the same shit. I am left with the conclusion that the best thing to do moving forward is:

1. Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

2. Purchase Basic D&D, 1e and 2e products

3. Purchase core 5e D&D

Those are in descending order intentionally. Outside of that, do not spend a nickel on other products, kickstarters, or companies. And unlike the woke, I am only saying what I plan to do...by no means am I telling anybody else how to spend their hard earned money.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Jam The MF on June 02, 2021, 11:56:45 PM
The risk they will likely take; is that if product stills sells well whilst including a little obviously woke content, then they will probably double down on it just to virtue signal.  They may well move from having a couple of woke sentences per book, to having a few pages of woke content per book.  At some point, many non-LGBTQ fans will vomit.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: ShieldWife on June 03, 2021, 12:17:12 AM
Unfortunately, the saying “Get woke, go broke.” isn’t always true. That doesn’t mean that it’s an insane conspiracy theory, just that it’s a generalization that sometimes holds true and sometimes does not.

I would certainly agree that often a focus on pushing a leftist agenda causes some form of entertainment to make less money than it might otherwise, especially if that leftism is forced in at the expense of quality and/or if the creators deliberately show contempt for the fans. Sometimes the media produced still makes big bucks though, especially if the woke agenda can be skillfully and subtly included, which lets be honest, has been an effective policy in Hollywood for a century.

Unfortunately, most fans are rather apolitical and apathetic and they will overlook, if not be outright oblivious, to all but the most blatant propaganda.

So conservatives should avoiding celebrating too much about GWGB, the woke still have all the money and power and they are willing and able to sacrifice a small amount of money to saturate all forms of entertainment with their propaganda.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Zelen on June 03, 2021, 01:14:48 AM
If I could predict the future effectively I'd be a lot wealthier than I am right now.

Overall I think the general analysis of the situation by the OP is more or less correct. On the sales side D&D book sales are insulated from critique simply because the hobby as a whole is very much dependent on existing social groups in a way that other forms of entertainment aren't.

The bigger problem that people should notice, but generally don't, is who is getting hired to write these books. WotC could easily farm out work to people who are excellent designers, storytellers, artists, and other assorted craftsmen -- But who don't bring a controversial agenda to the table. Instead they purposefully bring on people who are outspoken bigots and zealots first. It really speaks to the highly incestuous and insular nature of the culture in WotC.

The optimistic perspective is that D&D doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's important to acknowledge that the changes that hatemongers are attempting to foist upon D&D are part of a broader strategy to colonize all cultural spaces. If people are going to get fed up with this stuff, they're going to get fed up not from D&D but from something else. However, that doesn't mean they won't carry that attitude over into D&D. It's not like there is a shortage of RPGs out there. Once people look at D&D and realize this product is now made with a deep loathing of the people who actually made D&D successful -- There isn't anything to keep someone there.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Zelen on June 03, 2021, 02:15:09 AM
The cost of real competition is high. A full game + 3-6 supplements per year with great production values. It’s a tall fucking order...

People love their D&D, and they will walk away without a viable alternative rather than switch to a system like WHFRP.

I think that without a viable alternative to a future woke-as-fuck 6e D&D. WOTC will start to do to the RPG industry what DC and Marvel have done to American superhero comics.

I believe that D&D's recent growth has been on such a scale that they could lose half of the current fanbase and still be the #1 selling RPG by a comfortable margin. And as long as SJW's can point to a WOKE D&D being the #1 RPG; they will continually declare complete and total victory.

And no, we cannot count on them learning their lesson once sales start to plummet.

We need to keep in mind that Marvel comics is still the "number one" superhero comics publisher in a woke-collapsed industry.

And as of March 2021 they still think this is a good idea:
https://nerdist.com/article/marvel-introduces-lgbtq-captain-america-in-new-series/

This scenario has been playing out in real time in comics. The ComicsGate guys are regularly outselling Marvel, and are growing in an industry that's otherwise shrinking. (It also helps that there's Manga to look at as a point of comparison.) Before ComicsGate guys, I hadn't bought comics in over a decade -- Now I'm actually back into comics again. I just am not buying anything Marvel or DC.

The hurdles are pretty big, admittedly. Media that reports on comics is regularly and blatantly biased against ComicsGate (e.g. characterizing it as a "harassment campaign"). I'm not even sure if they have penetration into comics stores, although I know that was a big push for awhile. Either way, the infrastructure to support their work didn't exist, and yet they are still succeeding.

I like to imagine a similar thing is possible for RPGs. I know I've got a monthly RPG budget burning a hole in my wallet for their products.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Jaeger on June 03, 2021, 02:16:24 AM
Unfortunately, the saying “Get woke, go broke.” isn’t always true. That doesn’t mean that it’s an insane conspiracy theory, just that it’s a generalization that sometimes holds true and sometimes does not.

I'll quibble a bit and say all things being equal, it is true.

When you alienate your consumer base, in a fair market their is only one outcome.

But as you go on to point out; things are not always equal...


I would certainly agree that often a focus on pushing a leftist agenda causes some form of entertainment to make less money than it might otherwise, especially if that leftism is forced in at the expense of quality and/or if the creators deliberately show contempt for the fans. Sometimes the media produced still makes big bucks though, especially if the woke agenda can be skillfully and subtly included, which lets be honest, has been an effective policy in Hollywood for a century.

Big megacorp entertainment companies now have revenue streams that can keep them going for years even as they hemorrhage cash through open wokeness.

That is why the wokeoso's target traditional institutions and iconic IP for infiltration and convergence.

Institutional inertia and market position are big factors why these companies can afford to just throw cash away on woke nonsense.

Normies love their favorite brands and IP just as much as gamers like their favorite RPG IP, and are just as loathe to set it aside.

And yes, in spite of the good movies that were made. Hollywood has always been a cultural cesspit. I know exactly what you are talking about. Because; Every. Single. Time...



Unfortunately, most fans are rather apolitical and apathetic and they will overlook, if not be outright oblivious, to all but the most blatant propaganda.

So conservatives should avoiding celebrating too much about GWGB, the woke still have all the money and power and they are willing and able to sacrifice a small amount of money to saturate all forms of entertainment with their propaganda.

I agree people are loath to take offense lest they be labeled an ist-a-phobe of some kind. Also stupidity.

But the wokeoso's feel that they no longer have to be subtle about anything and it is showing more and more.

That is both a good and bad thing as it forces people to pick a side because silence is violence.


...
The bigger problem that people should notice, but generally don't, is who is getting hired to write these books. WotC could easily farm out work to people who are excellent designers, storytellers, artists, and other assorted craftsmen -- But who don't bring a controversial agenda to the table. Instead they purposefully bring on people who are outspoken bigots and zealots first. It really speaks to the highly incestuous and insular nature of the culture in WotC.

In 20/20 hindsight D&D was destined for wokeness the day they were bought by WOTC.

You can see the cultural seeds of it in various snippets Jonathan Tweet and Monte Cook wrote about their time designing 3e.

D&D is run by a different culture than the one that created it. And they were never going to hire anyone who did not kowtow to their liberal Seattle values.

The current pop-culture upswing D&D is experiencing is giving D&D a longer lease on 5e's edition life, and even though it was not due to anything WOTC did, it has given the current heads of D&D the financial confidence to start to turn up the woke dial.


Once people look at D&D and realize this product is now made with a deep loathing of the people who actually made D&D successful -- There isn't anything to keep someone there.

I agree, but given what we have seen of human nature, and given D&D's current market position, this process will take much longer than one would otherwise think.

Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Omega on June 03, 2021, 07:02:58 AM
I think Ravenloft is working because it is not what they claimed it would be. Everything I have seen so far shows it to be another case of what they say and what they do being nearly opposed.

The other reason its selling is that its got a few new class options in it.

And lastly because of hype and more importantly outrage marketing. They played people like Pundit with overinflated info that made it look more woke than it really is. Then sit back and get free advertising as everyone bitches about it. This draws in the curious to see if its as bad as the claims and invariably its not, making Pundit and others look like fools or grifters.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: oggsmash on June 03, 2021, 07:37:54 AM
  Who they hire says if they are headed to woke or not.  Universities most certainly went hard in the paint on going woke for decades.  Would anyone try to argue major universities are not woke now?   I do think a few people hired could shift WOTC more woke,  but honestly I do not care.  I bought all I will from them, and will not buy more.   The most honest reason is I have all I will ever need from them.  I do not care for the woke appeals, or Crawford talking about his husband for minutes at a time when supposedly putting out a video to discuss D&D.  I would not care for a dude discussing his wife either when I tune in for game info.   I have no idea if this was Crawford just being a goober, or if he wants to make extra special certain the world knows he has a husband. 

    Once they start taking a tone where significant gay characters show up, just to be gay.... I do not know what that does to them.  The general population is made up of a tiny fraction of people with such proclivities, the gaming population has always been more tolerant of literally everyone so no idea how much it causes trouble.  I do think of a few humorous moments where perceptions have been of the high school jock proclaiming "this is GAY" after picking up an RPG book; and how funny it will be when he opens a books to a picture two dudes making out over a slain dragon. 
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Reckall on June 03, 2021, 07:47:39 AM
We need to keep in mind that Marvel comics is still the "number one" superhero comics publisher in a woke-collapsed industry.

And as of March 2021 they still think this is a good idea:
https://nerdist.com/article/marvel-introduces-lgbtq-captain-america-in-new-series/

Except for the fact that, as of April, 2021, the Top 20 adult graphic novels sold in the USA (a genre, to be clear, that includes "Watchmen", "The Killing Joke", "Hellboy" etc.) were all manga.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/48284/april-2021-npd-bookscan-top-20-adult-graphic-novels

Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on June 03, 2021, 08:01:34 AM
We need to keep in mind that Marvel comics is still the "number one" superhero comics publisher in a woke-collapsed industry.

And as of March 2021 they still think this is a good idea:
https://nerdist.com/article/marvel-introduces-lgbtq-captain-america-in-new-series/

Except for the fact that, as of April, 2021, the Top 20 adult graphic novels sold in the USA (a genre, to be clear, that includes "Watchmen", "The Killing Joke", "Hellboy" etc.) were all manga.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/48284/april-2021-npd-bookscan-top-20-adult-graphic-novels

That doesn't really surprise me.

For one thing - manga actually tell a story. Even for comics I like - it feels like most are just treading the same ground over and over again. And comics are far more expensive due to focusing (IMO) more on high quality artwork than high quality story. Buying manga isn't super cheap, but it isn't the major expense that buying graphic novels can be. Manga are primarily black & white so that they can churn out more pages.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 03, 2021, 08:19:32 AM
Maybe the argument should be that if a company goes woke and alienates its primary income stream, then it most certainly will 'go broke'.

Keep in mind that large corporations have considerable reserves and assets as well as alternate income streams to deflect the losses they take. Hence why movie companies can afford to put out some real stinkers and 'woke' bombs and not collapse.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: HappyDaze on June 03, 2021, 08:22:20 AM
And lastly because of hype and more importantly outrage marketing. They played people like Pundit with overinflated info that made it look more woke than it really is. Then sit back and get free advertising as everyone bitches about it. This draws in the curious to see if its as bad as the claims and invariably its not, making Pundit and others look like fools or grifters.
This works both ways. Pundit follows the clicks, and so far, Ravenloft has gotten him enough that he's featured it in four of his own videos plus quite a bit of attention on Inappropriate Characters. So there's mutual benefits here for both Pundit...and for those that 'despise' him.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: HappyDaze on June 03, 2021, 08:25:44 AM
Maybe the argument should be that if a company goes woke and alienates its primary income stream, then it most certainly will 'go broke'.
Who comprises WotC's primary income stream? From their own figures, it's not people aged 40+ and I'd guess isn't likely composed of people who care one bit about older D&D. For their targeted income stream, they are happy to alienate the old guard because it might actually make their product more attractive.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: hedgehobbit on June 03, 2021, 08:34:46 AM
Who comprises WotC's primary income stream? From their own figures, it's not people aged 40+ and I'd guess isn't likely composed of people who care one bit about older D&D. For their targeted income stream, they are happy to alienate the old guard because it might actually make their product more attractive.

While I'm an old fart, I have three teenage kids. They and their friends treat all this "inclusion" stuff as a joke. It's a very similar reaction to how my generation viewed the conservative Christian dogma that was prevalent in the 80s. Basically, they laugh at all the woke boomer preaching.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Steven Mitchell on June 03, 2021, 08:53:47 AM
"Get Woke, Go Broke" is a classic "preference cascade".  Like all preference cascades, it happens "slowly, then all at once".  Slowly can be over years or even decades.  Also like all "preference cascades" there is a lot of inertia that prevents it from really getting rolling.  Basically, it takes a lot to piss people off enough to do anything that is optional, and it takes an immense amount of repeatedly pissing them off in a relatively short time to get them to walk away.  Even after the enjoyment has long been sucked dry out of the thing, people keep doing it out of habit and/or fond memories.  The issue is that by the time people have gotten fed up enough to walk away, there is no going back. 

The question for RPG companies in particular in this situation is are they willing to piss off a huge swath of customers that much?  If they keep doubling down on woke content and frequency and the "in your face" aspect of it, and the preaching--then eventually the built up resentment will bubble over and set off the preference cascade.  Something short of that, they may lose measurable (by them) sales, but from the outside it will be hard to tell. 

And of course it matters if there is an alternative.  It is a lot easier for people to drift away from A because they spend more time with B now, than it is to give up A cold because they are pissed off.

Also note for the SJW, none of this matters, because they are happy with either outcome:  Make the thing switch over to them and slowly lose interest over decades while dominating another slice of the culture, OR kill it dead fast.  Either way, something that didn't bow to them is gone.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Renegade_Productions on June 03, 2021, 09:22:50 AM
-clip-

The 5th reason is WOTC is now owned by Hasbro, themselves woke in many ways. So long as WOTC is pulling in profits from Magic and other sources, D&D can suffer in every way and it won't help correct the brand. (The fact that there's a D&D brand at all is enough of an issue, and a major hurdle.)

So the best we can do is keep highlighting the suicidal direction of WOTC, keep the spirit of D&D alive in ways outside of the IP and brand, and build alternatives for the inevitable moment when D&D has fallen.

"Get Woke, Go Broke" is a classic "preference cascade".  Like all preference cascades, it happens "slowly, then all at once".  Slowly can be over years or even decades.  Also like all "preference cascades" there is a lot of inertia that prevents it from really getting rolling.  Basically, it takes a lot to piss people off enough to do anything that is optional, and it takes an immense amount of repeatedly pissing them off in a relatively short time to get them to walk away.  Even after the enjoyment has long been sucked dry out of the thing, people keep doing it out of habit and/or fond memories.  The issue is that by the time people have gotten fed up enough to walk away, there is no going back. 

The question for RPG companies in particular in this situation is are they willing to piss off a huge swath of customers that much?  If they keep doubling down on woke content and frequency and the "in your face" aspect of it, and the preaching--then eventually the built up resentment will bubble over and set off the preference cascade.  Something short of that, they may lose measurable (by them) sales, but from the outside it will be hard to tell. 

And of course it matters if there is an alternative.  It is a lot easier for people to drift away from A because they spend more time with B now, than it is to give up A cold because they are pissed off.

Also note for the SJW, none of this matters, because they are happy with either outcome:  Make the thing switch over to them and slowly lose interest over decades while dominating another slice of the culture, OR kill it dead fast.  Either way, something that didn't bow to them is gone.

Pretty much. That's why these cadavers are trying to get into the OSR, if not poison the industry as a whole with things like the consent sheet.

(I've given up several dozen gaming companies -- Ubisoft, Activision, Paizo, Evil Hat, Onyx Path, etc. -- cold, so it can be done. It just takes initiative and willpower, hem hem.)
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 03, 2021, 09:35:01 AM
Another point to ponder.

RPGs are not like comics. If you have the 2E books, they don't magically go away just because WotC releases Wokeist Compendium VII. You may have a difficult time finding a game, but roleplaying gamers are a lot like foodies; we'll try anything once just to see if we like it.

This is one of the limitations weighing down WotC's attempts to pander to the woke crowd. What happens when they put out said compendium and nobody buys it because they're all playing previous editions?
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Renegade_Productions on June 03, 2021, 09:52:26 AM
Another point to ponder.

RPGs are not like comics. If you have the 2E books, they don't magically go away just because WotC releases Wokeist Compendium VII. You may have a difficult time finding a game, but roleplaying gamers are a lot like foodies; we'll try anything once just to see if we like it.

This is one of the limitations weighing down WotC's attempts to pander to the woke crowd. What happens when they put out said compendium and nobody buys it because they're all playing previous editions?

A point in our favor at least, and PDFs are cheap, though folks should get into the habit of buying the dead tree versions if they're available, if not archiving the versions they get in case of a file update.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: RandyB on June 03, 2021, 10:04:39 AM
Another point to ponder.

RPGs are not like comics. If you have the 2E books, they don't magically go away just because WotC releases Wokeist Compendium VII. You may have a difficult time finding a game, but roleplaying gamers are a lot like foodies; we'll try anything once just to see if we like it.

This is one of the limitations weighing down WotC's attempts to pander to the woke crowd. What happens when they put out said compendium and nobody buys it because they're all playing previous editions?

A point in our favor at least, and PDFs are cheap, though folks should get into the habit of buying the dead tree versions if they're available, if not archiving the versions they get in case of a file update.

"And". Print and archived PDF. No room for half-measures.  8)
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Valatar on June 03, 2021, 10:09:43 AM
D&D is not going broke.  Not with Hasbro money and marketing behind it.  There would need to be an absolute, unmitigated bloodbath financially before Hasbro would pull the plug on a brand with that much name recognition.  Let's go all-in here, imagine if the next D&D sourcebook is all about characters wearing leather puppy suits and hanging out with children at the local daycare.  Right off the bat, there are at least a dozen media outlets ready to put out, "New D&D Puppy Paladins Are What The Hobby Has Needed Forever" articles, and a dozen more with, "Alt-Right Nerd Gamergate Bigots Furious About New 'Child Molesting' Themes In Our Hobby" articles the moment five people complain on twitter.  This is all without Hasbro spending a dime.  Now throw in all the Youtube people hawking it for their streamed games.  And a hefty ad campaign.  I guarantee you that book would sell.  Maybe not fantastically, but it would sell.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Omega on June 03, 2021, 10:46:19 AM
D&D is not going broke.  Not with Hasbro money and marketing behind it.

Ohhhh WOTC wishes so. Hasbro has them on a tight leash and during 4e tightened that leash even more and put them on a severe budget after multiple screwups. This I know from one of the designers during 4e. 5e has, so far, had more leeway. But Hasbro still has them on a leash, just not as tight. For now.

5e has gotten just about no marketing in the advertisement side far as know. I am not even sure WOTCs card games have gotten much any more, if any. Last I saw was for the Kaijudo CCG which seems to be the last WOTC product to get a cartoon. And that didnt last more than a season think?
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Jaeger on June 03, 2021, 02:10:54 PM

Except for the fact that, as of April, 2021, the Top 20 adult graphic novels sold in the USA (a genre, to be clear, that includes "Watchmen", "The Killing Joke", "Hellboy" etc.) were all manga.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/48284/april-2021-npd-bookscan-top-20-adult-graphic-novels

And as of May 2021 Marvel still has more comics in the top 50 of comics than any other publisher:
https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/48475/top-50-comics-may-2021

With nary a Japanese comic in sight…  Apples and oranges man.


Maybe the argument should be that if a company goes woke and alienates its primary income stream, then it most certainly will 'go broke'.

Keep in mind that large corporations have considerable reserves and assets as well as alternate income streams to deflect the losses they take. Hence why movie companies can afford to put out some real stinkers and 'woke' bombs and not collapse.

Yes, exactly – far more succinct than my ramblings!



Who comprises WotC's primary income stream? From their own figures, it's not people aged 40+ and I'd guess isn't likely composed of people who care one bit about older D&D. For their targeted income stream, they are happy to alienate the old guard because it might actually make their product more attractive.

Magic money is still the top earner for WOTC.



..
This scenario has been playing out in real time in comics. The ComicsGate guys are regularly outselling Marvel, and are growing in an industry that's otherwise shrinking. (It also helps that there's Manga to look at as a point of comparison.) Before ComicsGate guys, I hadn't bought comics in over a decade -- Now I'm actually back into comics again. I just am not buying anything Marvel or DC.

The hurdles are pretty big, admittedly. Media that reports on comics is regularly and blatantly biased against ComicsGate (e.g. characterizing it as a "harassment campaign"). I'm not even sure if they have penetration into comics stores, although I know that was a big push for awhile. Either way, the infrastructure to support their work didn't exist, and yet they are still succeeding.

I like to imagine a similar thing is possible for RPGs. I know I've got a monthly RPG budget burning a hole in my wallet for their products.

As a point of comparison it will be very interesting to see how things like Comicsgate and Arktoons play out over time.

And although they ran things into the ground, it will take years for other IP to take hold and rise in popularity to challenge the institutional wokasauruses.



The question for RPG companies in particular in this situation is are they willing to piss off a huge swath of customers that much?  If they keep doubling down on woke content and frequency and the "in your face" aspect of it, and the preaching--then eventually the built up resentment will bubble over and set off the preference cascade.  Something short of that, they may lose measurable (by them) sales, but from the outside it will be hard to tell. 

Personally I think the current guys in charge of D&D would do far more than they are if they were really let loose.

It’s not pissing off huge swaths of customers, it’s leaving behind toxic fandom…

And sales losses 7-10 years into an edition cycle can be spun so many ways…

IMHO, when the executive team changes at WOTC is when we will see a much bigger shift in the woke.



Also note for the SJW, none of this matters, because they are happy with either outcome:  Make the thing switch over to them and slowly lose interest over decades while dominating another slice of the culture, OR kill it dead fast.  Either way, something that didn't bow to them is gone.

Truth. From their perspective either result is a victory.

Next year we will see how the D&D movie and Tv series initiatives do. I think that it will be interesting to see how they might affect 5e’s future sales.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 03, 2021, 03:29:05 PM
The problem for those woke companies propped up with other money is two fold.

One, if they are publicly traded, then the officers of said company have a fiduciary duty to not make bad business decisions. If you waste too much money, and cause the stock value to drop, then all sorts of entertaining shit can go down.

Two, even if they're not publicly traded, things can get more than a little tense if your accountants or CFO start asking why you're spending all this money on products that aren't making it back.

Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Jaeger on June 03, 2021, 04:25:02 PM
The problem for those woke companies propped up with other money is two fold.

One, if they are publicly traded, then the officers of said company have a fiduciary duty to not make bad business decisions. If you waste too much money, and cause the stock value to drop, then all sorts of entertaining shit can go down.

Two, even if they're not publicly traded, things can get more than a little tense if your accountants or CFO start asking why you're spending all this money on products that aren't making it back.

Ideally yes, but real world politics can extend this process for years...

The rumor mill is only now going strong on Kathleen Kennedy leaving Lucasfilm:
https://www.piratesandprincesses.net/kathleen-kennedys-tenure-as-the-head-of-lucasfilm-may-be-coming-to-a-close/

And it has been known for years by everyone how badly she fucked up the golden goose IP that Stars Wars should have been.

Woke companies propped up by larger corporations and/or other revenue streams can stay irrational longer than most people can stay solvent! And there are a million ways to mask things before they get so bad that they become impossible to ignore.

One of the big bellwether moments for D&D as an RPG will be if HASBRO's movie, tv, videogame, and other lifestyle branding takes off.

If the money coming in from those initiatives is orders of magnitude bigger than the rpg - then HASBRO could give a fuck what woke shit goes on in the RPG.

We see this effect with the Marvel and DC comics division; even after running themselves into the ground their corporate overlords have done nothing to fundamentally change what they are doing at all...

Because all the big money from the IP is being made in the films, tv, and videogame markets. And the ROI on those have so far been mighty.




Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: hedgehobbit on June 03, 2021, 07:53:01 PM
And as of May 2021 Marvel still has more comics in the top 50 of comics than any other publisher:
https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/48475/top-50-comics-may-2021

With nary a Japanese comic in sight…  Apples and oranges man.

That list was created by interviewing a non-random sample of comic shops. So, of course manga isn't there. Although the biggest comic shop in Dallas, Madness Games and Comics, has reduced the size of their new comics section by half, reduced their graphic novel section by a third, and added a manga section just in the last six months.

What's happened to comics is similar to what I see happening to RPGs. I don't think a new RPG will overtake D&D. Just that the RPG market will slowly and gradually shrink as people walk away or, like me, just stop buying anything new.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Zelen on June 03, 2021, 08:41:28 PM
And as of May 2021 Marvel still has more comics in the top 50 of comics than any other publisher:
https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/48475/top-50-comics-may-2021

With nary a Japanese comic in sight…  Apples and oranges man.

FWIW this data set explicitly excludes Manga.

Quote
As this is a small, non-random sample of over 3,000 stores selling American comics worldwide, these rankings may not be typical for all stores, but do represent a variety of locations and store emphases.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Jame Rowe on June 03, 2021, 08:43:57 PM
Who comprises WotC's primary income stream? From their own figures, it's not people aged 40+ and I'd guess isn't likely composed of people who care one bit about older D&D. For their targeted income stream, they are happy to alienate the old guard because it might actually make their product more attractive.

While I'm an old fart, I have three teenage kids. They and their friends treat all this "inclusion" stuff as a joke. It's a very similar reaction to how my generation viewed the conservative Christian dogma that was prevalent in the 80s. Basically, they laugh at all the woke boomer preaching.

My group and I view it much the same way. We understand about making sure to welcome others to the table - it's how well they interact with the rest of us, not their more personal things, which we expect them to have the maturity to handle their own way.

Though I'll point out that I'm the oldest at 40, and we all buy and play D&D 5e because it's the most common RPG available (and we don't really have the time or money to expand our gaming libraries).
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Tantavalist on June 03, 2021, 09:15:43 PM
My take on the heavy-handed Wokeness of many media types these days comes down to the idea that big corporations haven't actually changed at all. They're still soulless machines that only care about money, but have an insular management culture that in reality isn't half as good at making money as they like to think and just keeps going by crushing competition rather than their own merits.

These companies are getting Woke in the same way that they jumped on any other cultural bandwagon. They have the vague idea that this is "What the kids are into these days!" and want to take advantage of it. So we see Wokeness coming into the media for two reasons that aren't mutually exclusive.

One, they think it'll boost sales. But as with so many other cultural trends the execs don't really get what the target demographic wants and so they create some laughable version that's almost a parody of it.

Two, they see that even the most bumbling attempts to add Wokeness means that an screeching twitter mob will leap to defend whatever the Woke was in from any form of criticism, no matter how justified. So they start painting WOKE onto every generic garbage pile the company churns out knowing full well that reviewers will praise it just for that and criticism can be branded as bigotry and ignored.


If you look at some things that have appeared in recent years, they're technically Woke as fuck but still entertaining to watch. This is because they're made by people who actually hold to these values rather than using them as a shield from criticism or an excuse for a Two Minute Hate.

(As an example of this, look up Hazbin Hotel on YouTube. Angel Dust, for instance, is a gay sex worker- and apparently designed to be as offensive to SJW sensibilities as possible.)
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Zelen on June 03, 2021, 09:45:02 PM
I find incompetence wholly incapable of explaining things. Malice is a much better fit.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Jame Rowe on June 03, 2021, 09:58:41 PM
I find incompetence wholly incapable of explaining things. Malice is a much better fit.

You forgot stupidity, and none of them rule the others out.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on June 03, 2021, 11:06:48 PM
I find incompetence wholly incapable of explaining things. Malice is a much better fit.

You forgot stupidity, and none of them rule the others out.

"“Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as Evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common." - Harry Dresden :P
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Spinachcat on June 03, 2021, 11:47:42 PM
"Go Woke, Go Broke" - like any motto - will not be perfectly accurate, but it happens enough (especially over time) that it's likely to remain a popular motto.

As for D&D and RPGs, the situation is like everything else in the culture war. AKA, WotC has chosen their side and thus, alienates the other side. Other companies are following suit. Of course, this only will accelerate the wokeness as multiple companies try to compete for the left side dollars.

While WotC's total collapse would be fun, it has already happened for those on the right side of the culture war. AKA, they are no longer a viable vendor of fun. It's like RPG.net - for those who enjoy wokeness in their RPGs, that site provides them pleasure, but provides nothing for those who want their RPGs without politics.

It will be interesting to see how wokeness alters conventions in the next year. I predict the cultural divide and cultural battles will become significant issues in the public play of RPGs and other games.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Omega on June 04, 2021, 01:20:40 AM
One of the big bellwether moments for D&D as an RPG will be if HASBRO's movie, tv, videogame, and other lifestyle branding takes off.

If the money coming in from those initiatives is orders of magnitude bigger than the rpg - then HASBRO could give a fuck what woke shit goes on in the RPG.

We see this effect with the Marvel and DC comics division; even after running themselves into the ground their corporate overlords have done nothing to fundamentally change what they are doing at all...

Because all the big money from the IP is being made in the films, tv, and videogame markets. And the ROI on those have so far been mighty.

1: Solomon still has the stranglehold over WOTC AND Hasbro over anything D&D in movie or cartoon. WOTC wants to do these but cant. And working with Solomon has proven so-so at best when hes kept at several arms length, and a disaster at worst. Video games have been oddly few and far between. 2 MMOs that are so-so and barely D&D and more like just a Forgotten Realms MMO with D&D as an afterthought in Neverwinters case. The new Baldurs Gate game seems to have come and went surprisingly fast after all the hype? Weird.

2: So far seems not. And the one lucerative area they want to explore, movies and cartoons, is locked off from them still. I'll be surprised if this D&D movie ever actually appears at this rate.

3: Problem is the Marvel and especially the DC movies are either running on early hype momentum and now starting to severely falter. Or in DCs case has been mostly digging its way to failure after failure. Marvels new wave of movies and cartoons are likely going to bomb aside from one or two successes as people are getting tired of the woke agenda more and more.

4: Big money can be made. But so far what we have are people in charge willing to lose money to spread their agenda. At a guess willing to bank on one or two successes to keep the ship from sinking. On the flip side in Hasbros case they were once willing to lose ALOT of money to stop bad movies being made that devalued their IPs. Then turn around and devalue their own IPs with woke agenda insertions. And thats before even getting to WOTC which they know are a problem and should have tightened the dogs leash again long before.

Odds are marketing is telling the execs that woke agenda and other marketing ploys will pay off big time down the line as they draw in new customers who are more in line with the new agenda.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: TJS on June 04, 2021, 01:21:46 AM
Given the overlap between WOTC audience - particularly their new audience of college age youth - and the primary woke demographic, if they have to choose between being woke or being anti-woke, then it would only make sense for them to go woke.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Jaeger on June 04, 2021, 03:01:51 AM

1: Solomon still has the stranglehold over WOTC AND Hasbro over anything D&D in movie or cartoon. WOTC wants to do these but cant. And working with Solomon has proven so-so at best when hes kept at several arms length, and a disaster at worst. Video games have been oddly few and far between. 2 MMOs that are so-so and barely D&D and more like just a Forgotten Realms MMO with D&D as an afterthought in Neverwinters case. The new Baldurs Gate game seems to have come and went surprisingly fast after all the hype? Weird.

2: So far seems not. And the one lucerative area they want to explore, movies and cartoons, is locked off from them still. I'll be surprised if this D&D movie ever actually appears at this rate.

3: Problem is the Marvel and especially the DC movies are either running on early hype momentum and now starting to severely falter. Or in DCs case has been mostly digging its way to failure after failure. Marvels new wave of movies and cartoons are likely going to bomb aside from one or two successes as people are getting tired of the woke agenda more and more.

4: Big money can be made. But so far what we have are people in charge willing to lose money to spread their agenda. At a guess willing to bank on one or two successes to keep the ship from sinking. On the flip side in Hasbros case they were once willing to lose ALOT of money to stop bad movies being made that devalued their IPs. Then turn around and devalue their own IPs with woke agenda insertions. And thats before even getting to WOTC which they know are a problem and should have tightened the dogs leash again long before.

Odds are marketing is telling the execs that woke agenda and other marketing ploys will pay off big time down the line as they draw in new customers who are more in line with the new agenda.

1&2: I'm not up on who this Solomon dude is, but Hasbro seems to have made something work:
The Movie...
https://www.enworld.org/threads/d-d-movie-synopsis-namechecks-harpers-red-wizards-and-neverwinter-updated-maybe-not.680194/
The Tv show...
https://www.enworld.org/threads/is-the-d-d-tv-show-based-on-drizzt.680204/

3: Marvel does seem to be running out of steam, and DC films did do decent although not the numbers they wanted, and they still seem to be trying to find their feet. But they still made a bunch of cash - especially marvel, and they can afford to screw up things for years.

4: Yes, we can no longer rely on actual business sense or even raw buck-naked greed to keep companies from alienating their customers. And we are not even at peak woke yet IMHO!!

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out in 20 years or so...
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: S'mon on June 04, 2021, 04:34:51 AM
At some point, many non-LGBTQ fans will vomit.

I have a gay male player who hates all the Woke crap ruining D&D. The Wokesters do not speak for normal people - including gay & lesbian normal people.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Naburimannu on June 04, 2021, 06:53:14 AM
Who they hire says if they are headed to woke or not.  Universities most certainly went hard in the paint on going woke for decades.  Would anyone try to argue major universities are not woke now?

I'd dispute this briefly, but it's probably more a topic for the politics forum. Short form: some parts of some universities are "woke", and they're often made obvious in the media. Throughout the '90s and '00s, when we were hearing similar claims, there were plenty of departments of American universities with strong conservative / Christian biases.

Obligatory RPG connection: at the start of my current 5e campaign, one of the players asked for "teenage escapism" and there's been absolutely no problem giving the party that kind of experience using Rules-As-Written*. Some parts of some 5e books are "woke" but there's a perfectly playable game underneath all that, without having to invoke lots of In-My-Campaign dicta.

*: Except I always forget to give out inspiration and my players never remind me of it.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: jeff37923 on June 04, 2021, 07:19:45 AM
"Go Woke, Go Broke" - like any motto - will not be perfectly accurate, but it happens enough (especially over time) that it's likely to remain a popular motto.

As for D&D and RPGs, the situation is like everything else in the culture war. AKA, WotC has chosen their side and thus, alienates the other side. Other companies are following suit. Of course, this only will accelerate the wokeness as multiple companies try to compete for the left side dollars.

While WotC's total collapse would be fun, it has already happened for those on the right side of the culture war. AKA, they are no longer a viable vendor of fun. It's like RPG.net - for those who enjoy wokeness in their RPGs, that site provides them pleasure, but provides nothing for those who want their RPGs without politics.

It will be interesting to see how wokeness alters conventions in the next year. I predict the cultural divide and cultural battles will become significant issues in the public play of RPGs and other games.

In response, I give you John Ringo on "Why Cons Are Failing".

Quote
John Ringo
August 29, 2016
Moshe Feder

(Name redacted)
I have some hope after seeing Moshe Feder's comments. I was talking with the owner of a comic book store in town who has been active in fandom for a long time. He use to be involved in cons and was a Fan Guest of Honor at Dragon Con one year. He told (me) the split in fandom occurred during the Vietnam War. I started reading science fiction around the time the US involvement in Vietnam was winding down.

John Ringo

Moshe's comment actually made me angry as hell. Mostly because I knew he had a brain and I couldn't believe it had taken him this long to use it.

The split back then was specifically and pointedly quashed by both sides of fandom and pros. (Robert Heinlein, Isaac Asimov and Bob Tucker were all involved.)

Everyone agreed to disagree on the subject of the war but get along within fandom.

This split is different. It has been widening at least since the mid 90s and shows no signs of healing. Because both 'pro-fans' and 'pros' need to start to realize both sides have points to share. Alas, nobody on the left is willing to cede the slightest bit of ground and the right has gotten so tired of being vilified they're unwilling to even start the conversation.

I know I'm unwilling. We've tried repeatedly to 'open a dialogue' and got fucked over for it just as repeatedly. (Please see my RavenCon AAR for one example.) Pretty much we (conservative/libertarian authors/fans) are done and could give two shits what anyone thinks.

The complete absence of a huge market from various cons (all the, yes, conservative/libertarian readers who get tired of being treated like shit) is one of the many reasons lit-cons are failing. (See below.) But from the POV of the left, 'it's better to burn a village than save it.'

RL example: SheVaCon. SheVaCon was a small Virginia con that was about 500 members. The concom was pretty evenly split left/right but the 'right' side was very quiet in their views. (The Left not so much.) The 'right' side also had connections with Baen authors. (Not all right, BTW. Eric Flint is an avowed Communist.)

They started inviting Baen authors. Baen fans, many libertarian/ conservative, thus started to show up. They started doing a range day. More fans, really unaffiliated but in general more 'right wing' than the con had trended, started showing up. The con got much larger.

However, friends of the 'left' side of the concom were having to share their formerly safe-space with conservatives/ libertarians. They were encountering arguments they didn't like and we tended to be fairly rowdy. One woman even told me 'I wasn't even aware there WERE conservative fans!' (My reply was 'You know all those people who don't talk to you? Those are the conservatives.')

The Concom therefore instigated a putsch against the 'conservative' faction of the concom, pitching out all the people who had the connections with the 'wrong' fans.

Result?

The now 'cleansed' conom asked the usual authors to attend, citing all sorts of lies about the people who had been putsched (all friends of the authors who were getting both sides of the story.) The authors, more or less to a person and independently, told them to fuck off.

No big name authors, no huge attendance. Their attendance dropped 30% the year after the putsch. They dropped more the next year and then faded away.

One of the main reasons I attend as few cons as I do these days is the unending crap I take for being a known 'controversial conservative author'. (Although Larry has made such a name for himself in the arena people now consider me 'moderate.') Not to mention the absolute horse-shit I've had to listen to or the attempts to stifle me from 'speaking truth to power.' Being told 'That's not true!' about things that are verifiable facts. (And not even controversial ones.) 'That's not true... moving on...' is a tactic that was promoted by leftist ideologists a few years back and it got so old it was insane. Being told, metaphorically, to shut up and mind my manners cause I was a cis-male normative conservative and thus had no right to speak. WindyCon and RavenCon pretty much poisoned me against any con that MIGHT be the way they were in the future. And I now tell concoms of cons I don't know well, 'If I have to put up with crap, I'm walking and you can eat the costs.'

So... The spit is there, it's been there, it's getting wider mostly because people are finally starting to notice it and from my POV I could give a shit less. I have a few cons I attend and enjoy and there's no real need for me to attend cons in terms of market so I just hit those and ignore the rest. And the cons I attend, oddly enough, are the ones that are doing REALLY WELL whereas the ones which play the 'truefen' game are dying. Go figure.

At the current rate the 'truefen' cons will be relegated to a few large cities with enough population to support them and otherwise 'lit' cons will dry up and blow away. Except for the ones that DON'T play the 'truefen' game and ignore politics. Which as I pointed out to the con-chair of one that used those words exactly: 'In this day and age, 'we ignore people's politics, gender and race and only care if they're interesting and have a good time' IS a political statement.'

As for the truefen cons: The sooner they die off the better.

The MAIN reason they're dying off:

Cons are a business.

If you did a survey of all the 'big name' authors in SF you'd think that, based upon the general 'feel' of things, the most sales go to the left. And don't get me wrong, the left has some HUGE names. GRRM and Neil Gaiman come to mind. But if you grouped all the conservative/libertarian authors vs 'SJW' authors who were, say, midlist and higher, you'd find that the libertarian/conservative side would add up to more total sales. You don't see them on NYT, of course, they most definitely are NOT allowed to win a Hugo (very few Hugo winners are large sales authors) and you have to sort of dive deep into public records, but very few of the 'great' authors supported by the SJW side really sell worth a crap.

What does that have to do with fandom, you ask?

Why do people go to cons, by and large, the first time?
'There's someone there I've read.' (For litcons.)

Why do authors go to cons, by and large?

Most 'mid-list/high-list' authors don’t actually NEED cons to increase their sales. You'll pick up a fraction of a percent of your total sales in new readers at most. (Even at really big cons like DragonCon.)

Self publish obviously go to pimp/sell their books. But self publish isn't going to be a big draw.

'Big' authors only go to have a good time. They want to meet some new people, do some 'fan service' (being nice to fans), sign some books and generally hang out and enjoy the con.

They DON'T want to have a battle royale at every panel, be told to shut up, they don't have an opinion, be insulted and belittled, be told 'you can't say that'. Who does?

So as cons get certain reputations, big name cons/lib authors avoid them like the plague.

Since the majority of the 'new' attendees for any con are (based upon sales) more likely to attend one with a cons/lib author then you need to attract cons/lib authors to your con. But… Cons/lib authors aren't going to attend your con if it has the reputation of being an SJW blowjob fest. Trust me, we learn that lesson REALLY quick.

There's only three things important in any business, market, market, market. Cons are a business. (Absent having a sugar daddy to support them.)

Cons that can't attract cons/lib authors because of the climate of hatred can't maintain their attendance thus eventually dry up and blow away.

That's why cons are failing. The SJW cons are going for the noise rather than the reality, creating 'safe spaces' where they don't have to deal with mean, nasty conservatives and libertarians and generally limiting their market thereby. And it's killing them off one by one.

Good. The sooner they are gone the better. Fuck 'em all.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: TJS on June 04, 2021, 07:20:54 AM
Who they hire says if they are headed to woke or not.  Universities most certainly went hard in the paint on going woke for decades.  Would anyone try to argue major universities are not woke now?

I'd dispute this briefly, but it's probably more a topic for the politics forum. Short form: some parts of some universities are "woke", and they're often made obvious in the media. Throughout the '90s and '00s, when we were hearing similar claims, there were plenty of departments of American universities with strong conservative / Christian biases.

Obligatory RPG connection: at the start of my current 5e campaign, one of the players asked for "teenage escapism" and there's been absolutely no problem giving the party that kind of experience using Rules-As-Written*. Some parts of some 5e books are "woke" but there's a perfectly playable game underneath all that, without having to invoke lots of In-My-Campaign dicta.

*: Except I always forget to give out inspiration and my players never remind me of it.
I think that's a common experience. 

I've played in 4 or 5 games of 5e and only one used inspiration.  It never even occured to me to use it personally.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on June 04, 2021, 07:48:43 AM
The new Baldurs Gate game seems to have come and went surprisingly fast after all the hype? Weird.

I think that's mostly because it's still in early access. Basically it's still in paid beta.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 04, 2021, 08:18:30 AM
As I understand it (and this is cobbled together from bits and pieces so I may be wrong), one of the big lefty whines about Ringo was how the protagonist in the Paladin of Shadows was a deviant, sexually. Except that was kind of the point -- that protag was supposed to be seven degrees of fucked up anyways.

(Why lefties would complain about deviant sexual behavior is a question left to the ages...)
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: oggsmash on June 04, 2021, 11:11:43 AM
Who they hire says if they are headed to woke or not.  Universities most certainly went hard in the paint on going woke for decades.  Would anyone try to argue major universities are not woke now?

I'd dispute this briefly, but it's probably more a topic for the politics forum. Short form: some parts of some universities are "woke", and they're often made obvious in the media. Throughout the '90s and '00s, when we were hearing similar claims, there were plenty of departments of American universities with strong conservative / Christian biases.

Obligatory RPG connection: at the start of my current 5e campaign, one of the players asked for "teenage escapism" and there's been absolutely no problem giving the party that kind of experience using Rules-As-Written*. Some parts of some 5e books are "woke" but there's a perfectly playable game underneath all that, without having to invoke lots of In-My-Campaign dicta.

*: Except I always forget to give out inspiration and my players never remind me of it.

   Relating as to who is being hired is not political, it is simply discussing the direction something is likely to go.  As to what happened in the 90's and now regarding higher education, well I was in college in the 90's, and there were plenty of lefties, who were open to discussion and debate of different political opinions in class.  Last fall I had a class, in a tech course, where the instructor made the statement "we dont really need any more white guys in tech" while urging the class to tell as many women and people of every flavor to go to some event promoting women and all people (except white dudes) to get into a tech career.  It is anecdotal, but this was a tech class.  The liberal arts classes I had to take the woke was pretty fucking strong. 

   As for RPGs I agree there is no need to take the woke in D&D or any other game you like.  Most games (that meet a gamers preference) have lots of good stuff they like, and something they might not like.  I stated already, it will not matter if WOTC goes all the way woke, I have all I will ever need from them, so I am not technically their customer anymore.   I just think when hiring very outspoken people who go on and on regarding their worldview, it is to be expected they are going to shoehorn that real world point of view into a fantasy world.  Maybe they dont, or wont, but for higher education...well hiring led it to where it is.  I see no reason for WOTC to not have a very similar pattern if choosing to hire people with an overbearing world view.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: shuddemell on June 04, 2021, 12:56:55 PM
I find incompetence wholly incapable of explaining things. Malice is a much better fit.

You forgot stupidity, and none of them rule the others out.

"“Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as Evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common." - Harry Dresden :P

“Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice. One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by use of force. Evil always carries within itself the germ of its own subversion in that it leaves behind in human beings at least a sense of unease. Against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here; reasons fall on deaf ears; facts that contradict one’s prejudgment simply need not be believed – in such moments the stupid person even becomes critical – and when facts are irrefutable they are just pushed aside as inconsequential, as incidental. In all this the stupid person, in contrast to the malicious one, is utterly self satisfied and, being easily irritated, becomes dangerous by going on the attack. For that reason, greater caution is called for when dealing with a stupid person than with a malicious one. Never again will we try to persuade the stupid person with reasons, for it is senseless and dangerous.”

― Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Letters and Papers from Prison
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: SHARK on June 04, 2021, 02:42:10 PM
"Go Woke, Go Broke" - like any motto - will not be perfectly accurate, but it happens enough (especially over time) that it's likely to remain a popular motto.

As for D&D and RPGs, the situation is like everything else in the culture war. AKA, WotC has chosen their side and thus, alienates the other side. Other companies are following suit. Of course, this only will accelerate the wokeness as multiple companies try to compete for the left side dollars.

While WotC's total collapse would be fun, it has already happened for those on the right side of the culture war. AKA, they are no longer a viable vendor of fun. It's like RPG.net - for those who enjoy wokeness in their RPGs, that site provides them pleasure, but provides nothing for those who want their RPGs without politics.

It will be interesting to see how wokeness alters conventions in the next year. I predict the cultural divide and cultural battles will become significant issues in the public play of RPGs and other games.

In response, I give you John Ringo on "Why Cons Are Failing".

Quote
John Ringo
August 29, 2016
Moshe Feder

(Name redacted)
I have some hope after seeing Moshe Feder's comments. I was talking with the owner of a comic book store in town who has been active in fandom for a long time. He use to be involved in cons and was a Fan Guest of Honor at Dragon Con one year. He told (me) the split in fandom occurred during the Vietnam War. I started reading science fiction around the time the US involvement in Vietnam was winding down.

John Ringo

Moshe's comment actually made me angry as hell. Mostly because I knew he had a brain and I couldn't believe it had taken him this long to use it.

The split back then was specifically and pointedly quashed by both sides of fandom and pros. (Robert Heinlein, Isaac Asimov and Bob Tucker were all involved.)

Everyone agreed to disagree on the subject of the war but get along within fandom.

This split is different. It has been widening at least since the mid 90s and shows no signs of healing. Because both 'pro-fans' and 'pros' need to start to realize both sides have points to share. Alas, nobody on the left is willing to cede the slightest bit of ground and the right has gotten so tired of being vilified they're unwilling to even start the conversation.

I know I'm unwilling. We've tried repeatedly to 'open a dialogue' and got fucked over for it just as repeatedly. (Please see my RavenCon AAR for one example.) Pretty much we (conservative/libertarian authors/fans) are done and could give two shits what anyone thinks.

The complete absence of a huge market from various cons (all the, yes, conservative/libertarian readers who get tired of being treated like shit) is one of the many reasons lit-cons are failing. (See below.) But from the POV of the left, 'it's better to burn a village than save it.'

RL example: SheVaCon. SheVaCon was a small Virginia con that was about 500 members. The concom was pretty evenly split left/right but the 'right' side was very quiet in their views. (The Left not so much.) The 'right' side also had connections with Baen authors. (Not all right, BTW. Eric Flint is an avowed Communist.)

They started inviting Baen authors. Baen fans, many libertarian/ conservative, thus started to show up. They started doing a range day. More fans, really unaffiliated but in general more 'right wing' than the con had trended, started showing up. The con got much larger.

However, friends of the 'left' side of the concom were having to share their formerly safe-space with conservatives/ libertarians. They were encountering arguments they didn't like and we tended to be fairly rowdy. One woman even told me 'I wasn't even aware there WERE conservative fans!' (My reply was 'You know all those people who don't talk to you? Those are the conservatives.')

The Concom therefore instigated a putsch against the 'conservative' faction of the concom, pitching out all the people who had the connections with the 'wrong' fans.

Result?

The now 'cleansed' conom asked the usual authors to attend, citing all sorts of lies about the people who had been putsched (all friends of the authors who were getting both sides of the story.) The authors, more or less to a person and independently, told them to fuck off.

No big name authors, no huge attendance. Their attendance dropped 30% the year after the putsch. They dropped more the next year and then faded away.

One of the main reasons I attend as few cons as I do these days is the unending crap I take for being a known 'controversial conservative author'. (Although Larry has made such a name for himself in the arena people now consider me 'moderate.') Not to mention the absolute horse-shit I've had to listen to or the attempts to stifle me from 'speaking truth to power.' Being told 'That's not true!' about things that are verifiable facts. (And not even controversial ones.) 'That's not true... moving on...' is a tactic that was promoted by leftist ideologists a few years back and it got so old it was insane. Being told, metaphorically, to shut up and mind my manners cause I was a cis-male normative conservative and thus had no right to speak. WindyCon and RavenCon pretty much poisoned me against any con that MIGHT be the way they were in the future. And I now tell concoms of cons I don't know well, 'If I have to put up with crap, I'm walking and you can eat the costs.'

So... The spit is there, it's been there, it's getting wider mostly because people are finally starting to notice it and from my POV I could give a shit less. I have a few cons I attend and enjoy and there's no real need for me to attend cons in terms of market so I just hit those and ignore the rest. And the cons I attend, oddly enough, are the ones that are doing REALLY WELL whereas the ones which play the 'truefen' game are dying. Go figure.

At the current rate the 'truefen' cons will be relegated to a few large cities with enough population to support them and otherwise 'lit' cons will dry up and blow away. Except for the ones that DON'T play the 'truefen' game and ignore politics. Which as I pointed out to the con-chair of one that used those words exactly: 'In this day and age, 'we ignore people's politics, gender and race and only care if they're interesting and have a good time' IS a political statement.'

As for the truefen cons: The sooner they die off the better.

The MAIN reason they're dying off:

Cons are a business.

If you did a survey of all the 'big name' authors in SF you'd think that, based upon the general 'feel' of things, the most sales go to the left. And don't get me wrong, the left has some HUGE names. GRRM and Neil Gaiman come to mind. But if you grouped all the conservative/libertarian authors vs 'SJW' authors who were, say, midlist and higher, you'd find that the libertarian/conservative side would add up to more total sales. You don't see them on NYT, of course, they most definitely are NOT allowed to win a Hugo (very few Hugo winners are large sales authors) and you have to sort of dive deep into public records, but very few of the 'great' authors supported by the SJW side really sell worth a crap.

What does that have to do with fandom, you ask?

Why do people go to cons, by and large, the first time?
'There's someone there I've read.' (For litcons.)

Why do authors go to cons, by and large?

Most 'mid-list/high-list' authors don’t actually NEED cons to increase their sales. You'll pick up a fraction of a percent of your total sales in new readers at most. (Even at really big cons like DragonCon.)

Self publish obviously go to pimp/sell their books. But self publish isn't going to be a big draw.

'Big' authors only go to have a good time. They want to meet some new people, do some 'fan service' (being nice to fans), sign some books and generally hang out and enjoy the con.

They DON'T want to have a battle royale at every panel, be told to shut up, they don't have an opinion, be insulted and belittled, be told 'you can't say that'. Who does?

So as cons get certain reputations, big name cons/lib authors avoid them like the plague.

Since the majority of the 'new' attendees for any con are (based upon sales) more likely to attend one with a cons/lib author then you need to attract cons/lib authors to your con. But… Cons/lib authors aren't going to attend your con if it has the reputation of being an SJW blowjob fest. Trust me, we learn that lesson REALLY quick.

There's only three things important in any business, market, market, market. Cons are a business. (Absent having a sugar daddy to support them.)

Cons that can't attract cons/lib authors because of the climate of hatred can't maintain their attendance thus eventually dry up and blow away.

That's why cons are failing. The SJW cons are going for the noise rather than the reality, creating 'safe spaces' where they don't have to deal with mean, nasty conservatives and libertarians and generally limiting their market thereby. And it's killing them off one by one.

Good. The sooner they are gone the better. Fuck 'em all.

Greetings!

Damn, Jeff! ;D This is an excellent contribution! Very interesting, and enlightening as well.

Thank you for finding this and posting it here! Good stuff, man!

Everything that Ringo relates in this piece is spot-on. It reflects the enormous, and corrosive, damage that these fucking Marxist SJW's do to fucking everything in our society. Geesus these fucking sick tyrant bastards need to be fought against and opposed every step of the way.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Bradford C. Walker on June 04, 2021, 03:00:03 PM
Wizards of the Coast is a propaganda mill that fronts as a corporate business. Therefore the rules regarding propaganda mills apply, not corporate businesses, and propaganda mills will remain operational so long as the commanding organization believes that the mill remains useful to their overall operations. Due to the outsized influence D&D has on global popular culture, that value is huge--look at the results in other media (https://brianniemeier.com/2021/06/fantasy-world-of-cardboard/)--and so it stands to reason that there is no consequence to be felt by those of the Death Cult responsible for making D&D into yet another pozzing vector so long as that propaganda value remains.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: jeff37923 on June 04, 2021, 05:04:02 PM
"Go Woke, Go Broke" - like any motto - will not be perfectly accurate, but it happens enough (especially over time) that it's likely to remain a popular motto.

As for D&D and RPGs, the situation is like everything else in the culture war. AKA, WotC has chosen their side and thus, alienates the other side. Other companies are following suit. Of course, this only will accelerate the wokeness as multiple companies try to compete for the left side dollars.

While WotC's total collapse would be fun, it has already happened for those on the right side of the culture war. AKA, they are no longer a viable vendor of fun. It's like RPG.net - for those who enjoy wokeness in their RPGs, that site provides them pleasure, but provides nothing for those who want their RPGs without politics.

It will be interesting to see how wokeness alters conventions in the next year. I predict the cultural divide and cultural battles will become significant issues in the public play of RPGs and other games.

In response, I give you John Ringo on "Why Cons Are Failing".

Quote
John Ringo
August 29, 2016
Moshe Feder

(Name redacted)
I have some hope after seeing Moshe Feder's comments. I was talking with the owner of a comic book store in town who has been active in fandom for a long time. He use to be involved in cons and was a Fan Guest of Honor at Dragon Con one year. He told (me) the split in fandom occurred during the Vietnam War. I started reading science fiction around the time the US involvement in Vietnam was winding down.

John Ringo

Moshe's comment actually made me angry as hell. Mostly because I knew he had a brain and I couldn't believe it had taken him this long to use it.

The split back then was specifically and pointedly quashed by both sides of fandom and pros. (Robert Heinlein, Isaac Asimov and Bob Tucker were all involved.)

Everyone agreed to disagree on the subject of the war but get along within fandom.

This split is different. It has been widening at least since the mid 90s and shows no signs of healing. Because both 'pro-fans' and 'pros' need to start to realize both sides have points to share. Alas, nobody on the left is willing to cede the slightest bit of ground and the right has gotten so tired of being vilified they're unwilling to even start the conversation.

I know I'm unwilling. We've tried repeatedly to 'open a dialogue' and got fucked over for it just as repeatedly. (Please see my RavenCon AAR for one example.) Pretty much we (conservative/libertarian authors/fans) are done and could give two shits what anyone thinks.

The complete absence of a huge market from various cons (all the, yes, conservative/libertarian readers who get tired of being treated like shit) is one of the many reasons lit-cons are failing. (See below.) But from the POV of the left, 'it's better to burn a village than save it.'

RL example: SheVaCon. SheVaCon was a small Virginia con that was about 500 members. The concom was pretty evenly split left/right but the 'right' side was very quiet in their views. (The Left not so much.) The 'right' side also had connections with Baen authors. (Not all right, BTW. Eric Flint is an avowed Communist.)

They started inviting Baen authors. Baen fans, many libertarian/ conservative, thus started to show up. They started doing a range day. More fans, really unaffiliated but in general more 'right wing' than the con had trended, started showing up. The con got much larger.

However, friends of the 'left' side of the concom were having to share their formerly safe-space with conservatives/ libertarians. They were encountering arguments they didn't like and we tended to be fairly rowdy. One woman even told me 'I wasn't even aware there WERE conservative fans!' (My reply was 'You know all those people who don't talk to you? Those are the conservatives.')

The Concom therefore instigated a putsch against the 'conservative' faction of the concom, pitching out all the people who had the connections with the 'wrong' fans.

Result?

The now 'cleansed' conom asked the usual authors to attend, citing all sorts of lies about the people who had been putsched (all friends of the authors who were getting both sides of the story.) The authors, more or less to a person and independently, told them to fuck off.

No big name authors, no huge attendance. Their attendance dropped 30% the year after the putsch. They dropped more the next year and then faded away.

One of the main reasons I attend as few cons as I do these days is the unending crap I take for being a known 'controversial conservative author'. (Although Larry has made such a name for himself in the arena people now consider me 'moderate.') Not to mention the absolute horse-shit I've had to listen to or the attempts to stifle me from 'speaking truth to power.' Being told 'That's not true!' about things that are verifiable facts. (And not even controversial ones.) 'That's not true... moving on...' is a tactic that was promoted by leftist ideologists a few years back and it got so old it was insane. Being told, metaphorically, to shut up and mind my manners cause I was a cis-male normative conservative and thus had no right to speak. WindyCon and RavenCon pretty much poisoned me against any con that MIGHT be the way they were in the future. And I now tell concoms of cons I don't know well, 'If I have to put up with crap, I'm walking and you can eat the costs.'

So... The spit is there, it's been there, it's getting wider mostly because people are finally starting to notice it and from my POV I could give a shit less. I have a few cons I attend and enjoy and there's no real need for me to attend cons in terms of market so I just hit those and ignore the rest. And the cons I attend, oddly enough, are the ones that are doing REALLY WELL whereas the ones which play the 'truefen' game are dying. Go figure.

At the current rate the 'truefen' cons will be relegated to a few large cities with enough population to support them and otherwise 'lit' cons will dry up and blow away. Except for the ones that DON'T play the 'truefen' game and ignore politics. Which as I pointed out to the con-chair of one that used those words exactly: 'In this day and age, 'we ignore people's politics, gender and race and only care if they're interesting and have a good time' IS a political statement.'

As for the truefen cons: The sooner they die off the better.

The MAIN reason they're dying off:

Cons are a business.

If you did a survey of all the 'big name' authors in SF you'd think that, based upon the general 'feel' of things, the most sales go to the left. And don't get me wrong, the left has some HUGE names. GRRM and Neil Gaiman come to mind. But if you grouped all the conservative/libertarian authors vs 'SJW' authors who were, say, midlist and higher, you'd find that the libertarian/conservative side would add up to more total sales. You don't see them on NYT, of course, they most definitely are NOT allowed to win a Hugo (very few Hugo winners are large sales authors) and you have to sort of dive deep into public records, but very few of the 'great' authors supported by the SJW side really sell worth a crap.

What does that have to do with fandom, you ask?

Why do people go to cons, by and large, the first time?
'There's someone there I've read.' (For litcons.)

Why do authors go to cons, by and large?

Most 'mid-list/high-list' authors don’t actually NEED cons to increase their sales. You'll pick up a fraction of a percent of your total sales in new readers at most. (Even at really big cons like DragonCon.)

Self publish obviously go to pimp/sell their books. But self publish isn't going to be a big draw.

'Big' authors only go to have a good time. They want to meet some new people, do some 'fan service' (being nice to fans), sign some books and generally hang out and enjoy the con.

They DON'T want to have a battle royale at every panel, be told to shut up, they don't have an opinion, be insulted and belittled, be told 'you can't say that'. Who does?

So as cons get certain reputations, big name cons/lib authors avoid them like the plague.

Since the majority of the 'new' attendees for any con are (based upon sales) more likely to attend one with a cons/lib author then you need to attract cons/lib authors to your con. But… Cons/lib authors aren't going to attend your con if it has the reputation of being an SJW blowjob fest. Trust me, we learn that lesson REALLY quick.

There's only three things important in any business, market, market, market. Cons are a business. (Absent having a sugar daddy to support them.)

Cons that can't attract cons/lib authors because of the climate of hatred can't maintain their attendance thus eventually dry up and blow away.

That's why cons are failing. The SJW cons are going for the noise rather than the reality, creating 'safe spaces' where they don't have to deal with mean, nasty conservatives and libertarians and generally limiting their market thereby. And it's killing them off one by one.

Good. The sooner they are gone the better. Fuck 'em all.

Greetings!

Damn, Jeff! ;D This is an excellent contribution! Very interesting, and enlightening as well.

Thank you for finding this and posting it here! Good stuff, man!

Everything that Ringo relates in this piece is spot-on. It reflects the enormous, and corrosive, damage that these fucking Marxist SJW's do to fucking everything in our society. Geesus these fucking sick tyrant bastards need to be fought against and opposed every step of the way.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hey, SHARK.

The thing that gets me about this is that during the Vietnam War and the controversy surrounding it, science fiction pros and fandom agreed to disagree, but get along with each other. There was a profound fundamental difference of views, but a respect for the people who held them and the social circle that they all moved in.

Compare that with today. There is no ideological middle ground. You are expected to capitulate to the social justice mob and even the most benign questioning is met with overwhelming retaliation. It is a scorched Earth policy that leaves the culture of gaming barren and lifeless, devoid of anything unique that may challenge the narrative being established.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Jam The MF on June 04, 2021, 06:08:13 PM
I refuse to capitulate to the woke mob.  I will not be assimilated!!!
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: SHARK on June 04, 2021, 07:23:21 PM
"Go Woke, Go Broke" - like any motto - will not be perfectly accurate, but it happens enough (especially over time) that it's likely to remain a popular motto.

As for D&D and RPGs, the situation is like everything else in the culture war. AKA, WotC has chosen their side and thus, alienates the other side. Other companies are following suit. Of course, this only will accelerate the wokeness as multiple companies try to compete for the left side dollars.

While WotC's total collapse would be fun, it has already happened for those on the right side of the culture war. AKA, they are no longer a viable vendor of fun. It's like RPG.net - for those who enjoy wokeness in their RPGs, that site provides them pleasure, but provides nothing for those who want their RPGs without politics.

It will be interesting to see how wokeness alters conventions in the next year. I predict the cultural divide and cultural battles will become significant issues in the public play of RPGs and other games.

In response, I give you John Ringo on "Why Cons Are Failing".

Quote
John Ringo
August 29, 2016
Moshe Feder

(Name redacted)
I have some hope after seeing Moshe Feder's comments. I was talking with the owner of a comic book store in town who has been active in fandom for a long time. He use to be involved in cons and was a Fan Guest of Honor at Dragon Con one year. He told (me) the split in fandom occurred during the Vietnam War. I started reading science fiction around the time the US involvement in Vietnam was winding down.

John Ringo

Moshe's comment actually made me angry as hell. Mostly because I knew he had a brain and I couldn't believe it had taken him this long to use it.

The split back then was specifically and pointedly quashed by both sides of fandom and pros. (Robert Heinlein, Isaac Asimov and Bob Tucker were all involved.)

Everyone agreed to disagree on the subject of the war but get along within fandom.

This split is different. It has been widening at least since the mid 90s and shows no signs of healing. Because both 'pro-fans' and 'pros' need to start to realize both sides have points to share. Alas, nobody on the left is willing to cede the slightest bit of ground and the right has gotten so tired of being vilified they're unwilling to even start the conversation.

I know I'm unwilling. We've tried repeatedly to 'open a dialogue' and got fucked over for it just as repeatedly. (Please see my RavenCon AAR for one example.) Pretty much we (conservative/libertarian authors/fans) are done and could give two shits what anyone thinks.

The complete absence of a huge market from various cons (all the, yes, conservative/libertarian readers who get tired of being treated like shit) is one of the many reasons lit-cons are failing. (See below.) But from the POV of the left, 'it's better to burn a village than save it.'

RL example: SheVaCon. SheVaCon was a small Virginia con that was about 500 members. The concom was pretty evenly split left/right but the 'right' side was very quiet in their views. (The Left not so much.) The 'right' side also had connections with Baen authors. (Not all right, BTW. Eric Flint is an avowed Communist.)

They started inviting Baen authors. Baen fans, many libertarian/ conservative, thus started to show up. They started doing a range day. More fans, really unaffiliated but in general more 'right wing' than the con had trended, started showing up. The con got much larger.

However, friends of the 'left' side of the concom were having to share their formerly safe-space with conservatives/ libertarians. They were encountering arguments they didn't like and we tended to be fairly rowdy. One woman even told me 'I wasn't even aware there WERE conservative fans!' (My reply was 'You know all those people who don't talk to you? Those are the conservatives.')

The Concom therefore instigated a putsch against the 'conservative' faction of the concom, pitching out all the people who had the connections with the 'wrong' fans.

Result?

The now 'cleansed' conom asked the usual authors to attend, citing all sorts of lies about the people who had been putsched (all friends of the authors who were getting both sides of the story.) The authors, more or less to a person and independently, told them to fuck off.

No big name authors, no huge attendance. Their attendance dropped 30% the year after the putsch. They dropped more the next year and then faded away.

One of the main reasons I attend as few cons as I do these days is the unending crap I take for being a known 'controversial conservative author'. (Although Larry has made such a name for himself in the arena people now consider me 'moderate.') Not to mention the absolute horse-shit I've had to listen to or the attempts to stifle me from 'speaking truth to power.' Being told 'That's not true!' about things that are verifiable facts. (And not even controversial ones.) 'That's not true... moving on...' is a tactic that was promoted by leftist ideologists a few years back and it got so old it was insane. Being told, metaphorically, to shut up and mind my manners cause I was a cis-male normative conservative and thus had no right to speak. WindyCon and RavenCon pretty much poisoned me against any con that MIGHT be the way they were in the future. And I now tell concoms of cons I don't know well, 'If I have to put up with crap, I'm walking and you can eat the costs.'

So... The spit is there, it's been there, it's getting wider mostly because people are finally starting to notice it and from my POV I could give a shit less. I have a few cons I attend and enjoy and there's no real need for me to attend cons in terms of market so I just hit those and ignore the rest. And the cons I attend, oddly enough, are the ones that are doing REALLY WELL whereas the ones which play the 'truefen' game are dying. Go figure.

At the current rate the 'truefen' cons will be relegated to a few large cities with enough population to support them and otherwise 'lit' cons will dry up and blow away. Except for the ones that DON'T play the 'truefen' game and ignore politics. Which as I pointed out to the con-chair of one that used those words exactly: 'In this day and age, 'we ignore people's politics, gender and race and only care if they're interesting and have a good time' IS a political statement.'

As for the truefen cons: The sooner they die off the better.

The MAIN reason they're dying off:

Cons are a business.

If you did a survey of all the 'big name' authors in SF you'd think that, based upon the general 'feel' of things, the most sales go to the left. And don't get me wrong, the left has some HUGE names. GRRM and Neil Gaiman come to mind. But if you grouped all the conservative/libertarian authors vs 'SJW' authors who were, say, midlist and higher, you'd find that the libertarian/conservative side would add up to more total sales. You don't see them on NYT, of course, they most definitely are NOT allowed to win a Hugo (very few Hugo winners are large sales authors) and you have to sort of dive deep into public records, but very few of the 'great' authors supported by the SJW side really sell worth a crap.

What does that have to do with fandom, you ask?

Why do people go to cons, by and large, the first time?
'There's someone there I've read.' (For litcons.)

Why do authors go to cons, by and large?

Most 'mid-list/high-list' authors don’t actually NEED cons to increase their sales. You'll pick up a fraction of a percent of your total sales in new readers at most. (Even at really big cons like DragonCon.)

Self publish obviously go to pimp/sell their books. But self publish isn't going to be a big draw.

'Big' authors only go to have a good time. They want to meet some new people, do some 'fan service' (being nice to fans), sign some books and generally hang out and enjoy the con.

They DON'T want to have a battle royale at every panel, be told to shut up, they don't have an opinion, be insulted and belittled, be told 'you can't say that'. Who does?

So as cons get certain reputations, big name cons/lib authors avoid them like the plague.

Since the majority of the 'new' attendees for any con are (based upon sales) more likely to attend one with a cons/lib author then you need to attract cons/lib authors to your con. But… Cons/lib authors aren't going to attend your con if it has the reputation of being an SJW blowjob fest. Trust me, we learn that lesson REALLY quick.

There's only three things important in any business, market, market, market. Cons are a business. (Absent having a sugar daddy to support them.)

Cons that can't attract cons/lib authors because of the climate of hatred can't maintain their attendance thus eventually dry up and blow away.

That's why cons are failing. The SJW cons are going for the noise rather than the reality, creating 'safe spaces' where they don't have to deal with mean, nasty conservatives and libertarians and generally limiting their market thereby. And it's killing them off one by one.

Good. The sooner they are gone the better. Fuck 'em all.

Greetings!

Damn, Jeff! ;D This is an excellent contribution! Very interesting, and enlightening as well.

Thank you for finding this and posting it here! Good stuff, man!

Everything that Ringo relates in this piece is spot-on. It reflects the enormous, and corrosive, damage that these fucking Marxist SJW's do to fucking everything in our society. Geesus these fucking sick tyrant bastards need to be fought against and opposed every step of the way.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hey, SHARK.

The thing that gets me about this is that during the Vietnam War and the controversy surrounding it, science fiction pros and fandom agreed to disagree, but get along with each other. There was a profound fundamental difference of views, but a respect for the people who held them and the social circle that they all moved in.

Compare that with today. There is no ideological middle ground. You are expected to capitulate to the social justice mob and even the most benign questioning is met with overwhelming retaliation. It is a scorched Earth policy that leaves the culture of gaming barren and lifeless, devoid of anything unique that may challenge the narrative being established.

Greetings!

That's right, my friend!

Indeed, rhetoric, as well as behavior, was distinctly different during Vietnam, and many years before and since then, even. What many people mistake or fail to realise, is, it isn't merely a question of politics, or policy anymore, like it used to be.

WHY?

Because the game has changed. Democrats in this country for example used to be patriotic, law-abiding, and largely shared the same values and goals as Conservatives. They largely differed on issues of policy, procedure, funding. How much A to go here, how much B should go there, and so on. That has all changed, because the Marxists have managed to not only infiltrate much of the rest of society, but have also filtered their way through the bureaucracies and agencies and into the ranks of the Democratic Party. This ideology of Marxism, along with black supremacy, anti-Semitism, pro-Islam, Globalism, general anti-white racism, anarchism, Classism, it's all a terrible, horrifying stew, has become embraced by prominent elements within society, and within the Democratic Party. It isn't isolated to weird hippies living in buses, jello-brained college kids, or "community activists" that stand on a street corner ranting all day. Important members of the government--at all levels--federal, state, and local--zealously embrace this entire Marxist ideology, in one form or one degree or another. (Most of them are ideological and political flavours and tactics taught by Marxism to purposely corrupt target nations so as to make the takeover of the Communist "utopia" easier, by spreading hatred, division, and chaos.)

The threat to our nation, our Republic, our entire culture, is enormous and very real, making successful efforts at enforcing a "Colour Revolution" as we speak, all around us. This is why everything has changed--the stakes involved, the rhetoric, and gradually, the behavior as well. More and more people are finally waking up to exactly what the "Culture War" that began primarily in the late 1960's is all about, and realising the need to fight it and oppose it, at every opportunity. In previous decades, there were only a relative few that could see the suspicious tendencies, the disturbing policies, the tangents of problems that were slowly seeping into Democratic Party thinking, Liberal thinking, ideology, and policies. Most people blithely dismissed such concerns as "Right-Wing Extremism", myopically and naively trusting that everyday Americans would of course do what is best for the country, and nothing drastic would ever change or be threatened.

Well, just about every day now, every week, we see absolutely nutty changes, brimming with Marxism, Anarchy, Racism, and Chaos, being promoted all over the country, and promising huge changes that YOU AND I can feel and sense, RIGHT NOW.

Like people in Portland, Seattle, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Austin, Minneapolis, New York, and on and on.

That is why everything has changed, and won't ever be going back to "normal." Sanity and rationality and common sense will only be restored--as well as safety and the security of our Republic--when this country gets serious about how we have been infiltrated and subverted by Marxists and other assorted freaks that hate America, and want to see America destroyed, and "REIMAGINED." ;D

That is what we are up against, my friend, and it is pouring also into our hobby of gaming, like we see regularly as well. The absurd changes, threats, policies, and such being put forth for games and gamers alike is also deeply corrosive, hateful, divisive, and corrupt--and that is also why more and more gamers are also getting involved and raising their own voices as well in alarm and criticism of the whole SJW BS. Pundit is definitely a primary warrior in all of this, but he isn't the only one. Others are commenting and having dialogue as well, besides normal people like you and I.

I know, it is at times exhausting, and depressing. We must stand up though, every way we can.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 04, 2021, 07:43:50 PM
I also felt that Ravenloft 5e was a turning point. I pointed out ratings on Amazon in the first thread you linked. And while Ravenloft started out with super low ratings, it has normalized. So much so that it looks like it will be a huge commercial success. So, in that, I was wrong. It seems the average consumer has not yet flipped a switch on WOTC.

I did have an exchange with Mistwell in that thread. After looking at posting history, I now realize this individual has no interest in honest conversation. Lesson learned, but I will not waste moving forward. Their approach to this community and conversation is dishonest.

While I was wrong about the overall TTRPG community reaction to Ravenloft, I firmly believe this is the crack in the foundation. They are at a tipping point and they show no signs of being able to help themselves.

But then I look at the other products out there. Outside of Pundit and a couple others, it is all the same shit. I am left with the conclusion that the best thing to do moving forward is:

1. Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

2. Purchase Basic D&D, 1e and 2e products

3. Purchase core 5e D&D

Those are in descending order intentionally. Outside of that, do not spend a nickel on other products, kickstarters, or companies. And unlike the woke, I am only saying what I plan to do...by no means am I telling anybody else how to spend their hard earned money.

Re your points 2 & 3: NO! that's putting money in their pockets to keep financing the woke BS.

Do not buy from people that despise you and would gladly see you dead. And even if you're not right wing, if you're a nanometer to the right of Mao that's what they want for you and yours.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: HappyDaze on June 04, 2021, 08:44:09 PM
I also felt that Ravenloft 5e was a turning point. I pointed out ratings on Amazon in the first thread you linked. And while Ravenloft started out with super low ratings, it has normalized. So much so that it looks like it will be a huge commercial success. So, in that, I was wrong. It seems the average consumer has not yet flipped a switch on WOTC.

I did have an exchange with Mistwell in that thread. After looking at posting history, I now realize this individual has no interest in honest conversation. Lesson learned, but I will not waste moving forward. Their approach to this community and conversation is dishonest.

While I was wrong about the overall TTRPG community reaction to Ravenloft, I firmly believe this is the crack in the foundation. They are at a tipping point and they show no signs of being able to help themselves.

But then I look at the other products out there. Outside of Pundit and a couple others, it is all the same shit. I am left with the conclusion that the best thing to do moving forward is:

1. Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

2. Purchase Basic D&D, 1e and 2e products

3. Purchase core 5e D&D

Those are in descending order intentionally. Outside of that, do not spend a nickel on other products, kickstarters, or companies. And unlike the woke, I am only saying what I plan to do...by no means am I telling anybody else how to spend their hard earned money.

Re your points 2 & 3: NO! that's putting money in their pockets to keep financing the woke BS.

Do not buy from people that despise you and would gladly see you dead. And even if you're not right wing, if you're a nanometer to the right of Mao that's what they want for you and yours.
Do you have a citation for where they want him (or anyone) dead?
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Valatar on June 05, 2021, 12:54:46 AM
Just swing by Twitter whenever any well-known conservative person dies and observe all the grave-dancing going on.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Omega on June 05, 2021, 01:51:38 AM
Given the overlap between WOTC audience - particularly their new audience of college age youth - and the primary woke demographic, if they have to choose between being woke or being anti-woke, then it would only make sense for them to go woke.

Problem is... They dont buy/watch the product as much as marketing wants companies to believe. Hence why outrage marketing is a thing.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Omega on June 05, 2021, 02:11:36 AM
1&2: I'm not up on who this Solomon dude is, but Hasbro seems to have made something work:
The Movie...
https://www.enworld.org/threads/d-d-movie-synopsis-namechecks-harpers-red-wizards-and-neverwinter-updated-maybe-not.680194/
The Tv show...
https://www.enworld.org/threads/is-the-d-d-tv-show-based-on-drizzt.680204/


Courtney Solomon. Loraine Williams nephew whome she granted TOTAL rights over all D&D movies, TV shows and cartoons. He made the first and third D&D movies and WOTC had to go through him to get permission to do the 2nd D&D  movie. Solomon's company is also listed as co-producer of the new announced D&D movie.

As for the TV series. Either WOTC cut a deal with Solomon, or found another loophole around his stranglehold. Or whomever is making this series, assuming its real, is doing it without permission and could get sued by Solomon.

This is why WOTC originally wanted Dragonlance as 5es core setting. It is one of the few things that is not covered under Solomon's control. But for reasons unknown they did not want to include Weiss and Hickman in on it and things fell apart in the planning stages. And thus we are saddled with yet more damn Forgotten Realms.

Considering how often fake movies get announced with BIG NAME DIRECTOOOOOOORS!!! hiring them every time and every time its a fake. I'll believe it when it hits the big or small screen.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Omega on June 05, 2021, 02:39:18 AM
In response, I give you John Ringo on "Why Cons Are Failing".

As noted before back in the 90s iteration of this stupid we had the "moral guardian" faction at an indie comic and art con first making things worse each year at the con and then finally outright sabotage the con. The next year they took over the con totally and it was DOA a year or two later. A con that had been running for 12 years. Killed. The publishers and artists formed a new con and all went there instead. Though the new wave of this stupid has been pushing again for censoring that con.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Omega on June 05, 2021, 02:40:34 AM
The new Baldurs Gate game seems to have come and went surprisingly fast after all the hype? Weird.

I think that's mostly because it's still in early access. Basically it's still in paid beta.

ooooh? I thought it had been released already? That makes sense then if its early access/in development still.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Omega on June 05, 2021, 02:42:57 AM
(Why lefties would complain about deviant sexual behavior is a question left to the ages...)

Because the Left always becomes the right as the SJW moral guardians demand everything be sanitized and scrubbed.
Then bitch when THEIR stuff comes under the jackboot of the cult.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 05, 2021, 09:51:32 AM
(Why lefties would complain about deviant sexual behavior is a question left to the ages...)

Because the Left always becomes the right as the SJW moral guardians demand everything be sanitized and scrubbed.
Then bitch when THEIR stuff comes under the jackboot of the cult.
Actually, I just realized why they would whine. The protag in question was fucked up, even he admitted it.

They don't like it when they're trying to normalize bullshit and people call them out on it. This is why they get all defensive when the LGBTQABCWTF etc etc do their 'pride parades' and you get people wearing dildo costumes or leather harnesses wandering around, with normies going 'uh, wtf?!'.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: FingerRod on June 05, 2021, 11:28:36 AM
I also felt that Ravenloft 5e was a turning point. I pointed out ratings on Amazon in the first thread you linked. And while Ravenloft started out with super low ratings, it has normalized. So much so that it looks like it will be a huge commercial success. So, in that, I was wrong. It seems the average consumer has not yet flipped a switch on WOTC.

I did have an exchange with Mistwell in that thread. After looking at posting history, I now realize this individual has no interest in honest conversation. Lesson learned, but I will not waste moving forward. Their approach to this community and conversation is dishonest.

While I was wrong about the overall TTRPG community reaction to Ravenloft, I firmly believe this is the crack in the foundation. They are at a tipping point and they show no signs of being able to help themselves.

But then I look at the other products out there. Outside of Pundit and a couple others, it is all the same shit. I am left with the conclusion that the best thing to do moving forward is:

1. Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

2. Purchase Basic D&D, 1e and 2e products

3. Purchase core 5e D&D

Those are in descending order intentionally. Outside of that, do not spend a nickel on other products, kickstarters, or companies. And unlike the woke, I am only saying what I plan to do...by no means am I telling anybody else how to spend their hard earned money.

Re your points 2 & 3: NO! that's putting money in their pockets to keep financing the woke BS.

Do not buy from people that despise you and would gladly see you dead. And even if you're not right wing, if you're a nanometer to the right of Mao that's what they want for you and yours.

I fully oppose telling people how to spend their money. I clearly stated they were in descending order intentionally.

It seems we are in agreement around point one? Does it help if I clarify that point two is NOT buying reprints? By Basic/1e/2e products, I am referring to actual books produced by TSR that already exist in the market. Buying from Glenn on eBay or from his local game store does not help anybody but Glenn.

Point three is where we will likely not find common ground. I believe an across the board dip in sales would be interpreted by WOTC in a manner less likely to produce change. I am in my third decade of working for large companies, both privately held and public. Maintaining core product sales this late in the lifecycle, with unpopular/dead sales for newer support products is how new product leads get named and/or recent hiring decisions get evaluated.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Korgoth on June 05, 2021, 05:14:51 PM
I also felt that Ravenloft 5e was a turning point. I pointed out ratings on Amazon in the first thread you linked. And while Ravenloft started out with super low ratings, it has normalized. So much so that it looks like it will be a huge commercial success. So, in that, I was wrong. It seems the average consumer has not yet flipped a switch on WOTC.

I did have an exchange with Mistwell in that thread. After looking at posting history, I now realize this individual has no interest in honest conversation. Lesson learned, but I will not waste moving forward. Their approach to this community and conversation is dishonest.

While I was wrong about the overall TTRPG community reaction to Ravenloft, I firmly believe this is the crack in the foundation. They are at a tipping point and they show no signs of being able to help themselves.

But then I look at the other products out there. Outside of Pundit and a couple others, it is all the same shit. I am left with the conclusion that the best thing to do moving forward is:

1. Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

2. Purchase Basic D&D, 1e and 2e products

3. Purchase core 5e D&D

Those are in descending order intentionally. Outside of that, do not spend a nickel on other products, kickstarters, or companies. And unlike the woke, I am only saying what I plan to do...by no means am I telling anybody else how to spend their hard earned money.

Re your points 2 & 3: NO! that's putting money in their pockets to keep financing the woke BS.

Do not buy from people that despise you and would gladly see you dead. And even if you're not right wing, if you're a nanometer to the right of Mao that's what they want for you and yours.

I fully oppose telling people how to spend their money. I clearly stated they were in descending order intentionally.

It seems we are in agreement around point one? Does it help if I clarify that point two is NOT buying reprints? By Basic/1e/2e products, I am referring to actual books produced by TSR that already exist in the market. Buying from Glenn on eBay or from his local game store does not help anybody but Glenn.

Point three is where we will likely not find common ground. I believe an across the board dip in sales would be interpreted by WOTC in a manner less likely to produce change. I am in my third decade of working for large companies, both privately held and public. Maintaining core product sales this late in the lifecycle, with unpopular/dead sales for newer support products is how new product leads get named and/or recent hiring decisions get evaluated.

I think it's still kind of a false premise that you have to buy D&D at all.

Couldn't the list be:

The first point is really just pragmatism as a gaming group doesn't need to be about politics first.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: HappyDaze on June 05, 2021, 05:33:20 PM
I think it's still kind of a false premise that you have to buy D&D at all.

Couldn't the list be:
  • Buy the game your groups actively want to play
  • Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

The first point is really just pragmatism as a gaming group doesn't need to be about politics first.
I buy games my group actively wants to play along with games that my group doesn't necessarily want to play but that interest me. I don't give two shits who's writing them, I'll buy them so long as they qualify in either of the first two categories and if they don't, then I won't buy them just to support some jackhole's politics.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: FingerRod on June 05, 2021, 06:49:15 PM

I think it's still kind of a false premise that you have to buy D&D at all.

Couldn't the list be:
  • Buy the game your groups actively want to play
  • Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

The first point is really just pragmatism as a gaming group doesn't need to be about politics first.

Welcome to the boards!

I agree buying a game the group wants to play is important, otherwise you are buying a game to read or as a collector’s item. These are of course fine, and things I have done as well.

If you assume we are talking about a game that is meant to be played, your next point and my first point are actually the same minus my poor wording around ‘actively opposing’. So fair point, my word selection did not reflect what I meant. I should have said and sincerely meant, not participating. I don’t want any politics or agenda in my game or game material.

I have been playing apolitical games with people from all walks of life all over the political spectrum for 30 years, never injecting a political agenda into my games. It is game creators today doing that.

In fairness to what I said, I never made a premise that D&D needed to be purchased.

Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: oggsmash on June 05, 2021, 07:13:53 PM
Just swing by Twitter whenever any well-known conservative person dies and observe all the grave-dancing going on.
   Or catch a guest lecturer at Yale. 
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on June 05, 2021, 07:55:06 PM
Just swing by Twitter whenever any well-known conservative person dies and observe all the grave-dancing going on.
   Or catch a guest lecturer at Yale.

Did that.

Now - what do I do with him? What do Yale lecturers eat? /s
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 05, 2021, 09:15:10 PM
As to the why. I had a haircut while NPR was on the radio.
They observed that psychologically 'activism' substituted prayer in many (like 50%) of people.
Im coming at this from a group psychology angle (not a religous one). Humans have a instinctual desire to have influence over things they do not and cannot ever have.
To said people, activism occupies not the mental space of goal reaching, but PRAYER. This isn't a preferntial difference, but a religous one.

Thats why its more intense then before. You can't leave and let live if you really believe in a religeon. To a true believer christian, leaving you alone is condemming you to hell.
Same idea with the modern time.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: TJS on June 05, 2021, 10:35:44 PM
Just swing by Twitter whenever any well-known conservative person dies and observe all the grave-dancing going on.
   Or catch a guest lecturer at Yale.

Did that.

Now - what do I do with him? What do Yale lecturers eat? /s

I have it on good authority they can survive for quite a long time on vague promises of tenure.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Spinachcat on June 05, 2021, 11:34:42 PM
I think it's still kind of a false premise that you have to buy D&D at all.

Couldn't the list be:
  • Buy the game your groups actively want to play
  • Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

The first point is really just pragmatism as a gaming group doesn't need to be about politics first.

You are absolutely 100% right there is no reason to buy WotC's D&D. There are numerous quality fantasy RPGs on the market (even beyond the OSR).

The only point I would change is #1 to "Buy the games you really want to run" because I personally find most players mellow and/or passive and just want to have fun playing what the GM wants to run. Those players committed to only play XYZ RPG just need to find another group to their liking.

Like here's a cool free RPG that would keep a gaming group busy for the next year.
http://www.stargazergames.eu/games/warrior-rogue-mage/ (http://www.stargazergames.eu/games/warrior-rogue-mage/)

Of course, I can't skip posting my favorite free RPG - MAZES & MINOTAURS - and I have run multiple campaigns with it and will do so again in the future.
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/ (http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/)

Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: RPGPundit on June 06, 2021, 08:52:55 AM
As to the why. I had a haircut while NPR was on the radio.
They observed that psychologically 'activism' substituted prayer in many (like 50%) of people.
Im coming at this from a group psychology angle (not a religous one). Humans have a instinctual desire to have influence over things they do not and cannot ever have.
To said people, activism occupies not the mental space of goal reaching, but PRAYER. This isn't a preferntial difference, but a religous one.

Thats why its more intense then before. You can't leave and let live if you really believe in a religeon. To a true believer christian, leaving you alone is condemming you to hell.
Same idea with the modern time.

This is warning: This post is not related to RPGs. Do not continue to post off-topic political statements on the RPG forum.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 06, 2021, 01:47:54 PM
This is warning: This post is not related to RPGs. Do not continue to post off-topic political statements on the RPG forum.

Apologies. More backish to topic: I say reject the idea of IPs as something you remain 'loyal' too, and SJWs won't have an in to exploit it.

I agree to the premise of just rejecting modern D&D altogether. Let it die.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Omega on June 07, 2021, 01:05:37 PM
Part of the problem is that the Moral Guardians/SJWs/Woke only pretend to be loyal to something to gain a foothold and feed on it. Either scrubbing it clean of all things forbidden. Or co-opting it as an agenda platform.

It pretty much always leads to loss of sales and gradual, or sometimes fast loss of customers. Star Wars saw this really fast with the new Disney co-opting. And even stuff they had no direct hand in like Mandalorean they eventually started to co-op and purge. Or try to compete against.

With D&D and WOTC it is still a weird thing where publicly they say one thing. But in print they never back it up hardly. And I have come to believe this is deliberate to garner free advertising from misdirected outrage. How long WOTC can keep this up is anyones guess as they are well into infested and were so well ahead of the curve by the 90s iteration of this problem.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: TJS on June 07, 2021, 08:04:11 PM
Part of the problem is that the Moral Guardians/SJWs/Woke only pretend to be loyal to something to gain a foothold and feed on it. Either scrubbing it clean of all things forbidden. Or co-opting it as an agenda platform.

It pretty much always leads to loss of sales and gradual, or sometimes fast loss of customers. Star Wars saw this really fast with the new Disney co-opting. And even stuff they had no direct hand in like Mandalorean they eventually started to co-op and purge. Or try to compete against.

With D&D and WOTC it is still a weird thing where publicly they say one thing. But in print they never back it up hardly. And I have come to believe this is deliberate to garner free advertising from misdirected outrage. How long WOTC can keep this up is anyones guess as they are well into infested and were so well ahead of the curve by the 90s iteration of this problem.
The culture war mostly takes place at the level of marketing and HR. It's important to remember that.

Ultimately D&D is a game from the 70s.  We're now nearly 50 years on.  Naturally it carries a whole lot assumptions from a different time.  There is no way that D&D can actually ever be woke.  Ultimately on some level WOTC have to know that there will never not be more things for activists to dig up and find problematic.  The strategy, such as it is, is to get activitists on side, convince them that WOTC are with them and on the same side, so they are happy with a woke gloss of paint, and don't look too closely.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: rocksfalleverybodydies on June 08, 2021, 12:59:20 AM
On that note, it seems the main strategy seems to be denigrating the TSR stuff as so very uncultured and outdated in perspective in comparison to their fine products.  Trash the source that set the standards, to show how far WotC has come and how sensitive they are.  Such a brave and bold gesture, on behalf of the RPG 'community'.  Aren't we lucky to have them spinning the marketing wheel for the hobby.

They also throw their own older stuff under the same bus which sells the ruse, legitimizing their nonsense as it's pretty obvious 5e is their meal ticket and the one that matters to their future plans.  They'll just release expansion books to 'fix' any slight problems that may exist in their flagship game and make a profit doing it.  Crafty devils.

<edit sp>
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 08, 2021, 08:10:54 AM
On that note, it seems the main strategy seems to be denigrating the TSR stuff as so very uncultured and outdated in perspective in comparison to their fine products.  Trash the source that set the standards, to show how far WotC has come and how sensitive they are.  Such a brave and bold gesture, on behalf of the RPG 'community'.  Aren't we lucky to have them spinning the marketing wheel for the hobby.

They also throw their own older stuff under the same bus which sells the ruse, legitimizing their nonsense as it's pretty obvious 5e is their meal ticket and the one that matters to their future plans.  They'll just release expansion books to 'fix' any slight problems that may exist in their flagship game and make a profit doing it.  Crafty devils.

<edit sp>
That's a common pattern though. Year Zero thinking -- dismiss prior material as 'unworthy', 'problematic', etc, so that ideally it will fall by the wayside in favor of properly 'sensitive' newer stuff.

Which is a hell of a thing. I mean, yeah, you had the usual arguments about editions from 1E to 4E, but holy shit I don't think I ever met a 3E player who advocated tossing the old 2E material on a fire.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Armchair Gamer on June 08, 2021, 08:15:00 AM
Which is a hell of a thing. I mean, yeah, you had the usual arguments about editions from 1E to 4E, but holy shit I don't think I ever met a 3E player who advocated tossing the old 2E material on a fire.

  Well, there was that one player who posted pictures of burning his 4E books, but he was an outlier, 4E was an outlier, and I'm not sure whether it was real or not. :)
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: TJS on June 08, 2021, 08:23:07 AM
On that note, it seems the main strategy seems to be denigrating the TSR stuff as so very uncultured and outdated in perspective in comparison to their fine products.  Trash the source that set the standards, to show how far WotC has come and how sensitive they are.  Such a brave and bold gesture, on behalf of the RPG 'community'.  Aren't we lucky to have them spinning the marketing wheel for the hobby.

They also throw their own older stuff under the same bus which sells the ruse, legitimizing their nonsense as it's pretty obvious 5e is their meal ticket and the one that matters to their future plans.  They'll just release expansion books to 'fix' any slight problems that may exist in their flagship game and make a profit doing it.  Crafty devils.

<edit sp>
That's a common pattern though. Year Zero thinking -- dismiss prior material as 'unworthy', 'problematic', etc, so that ideally it will fall by the wayside in favor of properly 'sensitive' newer stuff.

Which is a hell of a thing. I mean, yeah, you had the usual arguments about editions from 1E to 4E, but holy shit I don't think I ever met a 3E player who advocated tossing the old 2E material on a fire.
Well they don't want it actually expunged.  From arguing with these people it seems they're happy for Oriental Adventures to exist in the library of congress or something like that so critical theorists can read it* as part of their phds in something or other culture.

They just don't want the plebs getting their hands on it.

*well American one's at least - but then the woke movement is extraordinarily parochial so that's par for the course.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 08, 2021, 08:35:51 AM
Which is a hell of a thing. I mean, yeah, you had the usual arguments about editions from 1E to 4E, but holy shit I don't think I ever met a 3E player who advocated tossing the old 2E material on a fire.

  Well, there was that one player who posted pictures of burning his 4E books, but he was an outlier, 4E was an outlier, and I'm not sure whether it was real or not. :)
I've said this before but it bears repeating. From a mechanical standpoint, 4E wasn't bad. But it did not look, feel, or play like D&D. If they'd called it 'D&D Tactics' or something, or 'Chainmail 2' I don't think people would've been as nearly irked by it.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Armchair Gamer on June 08, 2021, 09:07:18 AM
I've said this before but it bears repeating. From a mechanical standpoint, 4E wasn't bad. But it did not look, feel, or play like D&D. If they'd called it 'D&D Tactics' or something, or 'Chainmail 2' I don't think people would've been as nearly irked by it.

   I've taken a similar point of view. 4E is, of itself, a very good game--but it's not very good at being 'traditional D&D', and it was marketed as a replacement that moved away from that at the same time that a lot of the hobby was looking back to the roots. Doing it as a variant or spinoff would probably have worked well enough, but WotC has a pathological aversion to splitting the market or diluting the Desecrated Brand. :)
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on June 08, 2021, 09:13:44 AM
Which is a hell of a thing. I mean, yeah, you had the usual arguments about editions from 1E to 4E, but holy shit I don't think I ever met a 3E player who advocated tossing the old 2E material on a fire.

  Well, there was that one player who posted pictures of burning his 4E books, but he was an outlier, 4E was an outlier, and I'm not sure whether it was real or not. :)
I've said this before but it bears repeating. From a mechanical standpoint, 4E wasn't bad. But it did not look, feel, or play like D&D. If they'd called it 'D&D Tactics' or something, or 'Chainmail 2' I don't think people would've been as nearly irked by it.

It had decent bones - but even as a pure tactics game there were issues.

The HP bloat was real. That combined with the multitude of tiny bonuses/penalties to track made combat crawl. Several other factors that were significant issues which went beyond how it was sold.

There were a lot of pieces of 4e that I liked. Minions and really embracing pushing/moving foes & allies are things that were cool. But the whole... not so much.

Puffin Forest does a good job of explaining my general feel for 4e. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpmUxfS4LF8&ab_channel=PuffinForest
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Omega on June 08, 2021, 10:51:34 AM
On that note, it seems the main strategy seems to be denigrating the TSR stuff as so very uncultured and outdated in perspective in comparison to their fine products.  Trash the source that set the standards, to show how far WotC has come and how sensitive they are.  Such a brave and bold gesture, on behalf of the RPG 'community'.  Aren't we lucky to have them spinning the marketing wheel for the hobby.

Seen this in animation too where older cartoons which were rather progressive for their times are now being decried as having a mere "token minority". But that was a tactic in the last two iterations as well. Parker from the original Alien movie was declared this way back for example.

At the onset of this 2010 version sure enough people, even a few here, were pointing at older editions of D&D and declaring them wacist because they didnt have "enough" minorities in them. Or trying to "prove" Gary was racist by showing that this or that race was not "really" dark skinned, etc.

Round and round we go. And we will be having this exact same conversation adout the 2030 iteration. Except now they will be the "Uplifters" or some other trendy term to sucker a new generation. "Championing" for the "Downtrodden Percentage" (Because "People of Colour" is racist now of course.) Protecting them from the evil "Thinkers"... yeah.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: tenbones on June 10, 2021, 01:13:58 PM
... and this is why it's time people just let "D&D" as a brand go. It's already gone. There is little use in complaining about it, because it's not coming back to whatever it is you want it to be in some former iteration.

It's now part of the Woke Corporate Complex. And everyone is free to partake of it as much as they want. But the longer this goes on, the more it feels like co-dependency (unless you have a motivation like click-chasing, or getting "likes") in griping about how WotC's latest dick-slap to your face has offended us, and the SJW-goblin gloating that will echo through the interwebz at you while demeaning you as an istphobe becomes the same ol' circle jerk where we recapitulate all the slights to date. rinse/repeat.

There IS no coming back in modern D&D. You got your previous editions. You got the OSR. You got other systems, that *are* better mechanically, and you got every ability to recreate and/or improve upon your previous experiences with others. Do it.

How many proverbial punches to the face do you have to take before you realize you're not wanted unless you bend the knee to their new direction? I don't see why it's even an issue.

Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: oggsmash on June 10, 2021, 01:17:31 PM
... and this is why it's time people just let "D&D" as a brand go. It's already gone. There is little use in complaining about it, because it's not coming back to whatever it is you want it to be in some former iteration.

It's now part of the Woke Corporate Complex. And everyone is free to partake of it as much as they want. But the longer this goes on, the more it feels like co-dependency (unless you have a motivation like click-chasing, or getting "likes") in griping about how WotC's latest dick-slap to your face has offended us, and the SJW-goblin gloating that will echo through the interwebz at you while demeaning you as an istphobe becomes the same ol' circle jerk where we recapitulate all the slights to date. rinse/repeat.

There IS no coming back in modern D&D. You got your previous editions. You got the OSR. You got other systems, that *are* better mechanically, and you got every ability to recreate and/or improve upon your previous experiences with others. Do it.

How many proverbial punches to the face do you have to take before you realize you're not wanted unless you bend the knee to their new direction? I don't see why it's even an issue.

    In an unrelated, but sort of related question, do you play the Savage Worlds iteration of Pathfinder?    If so, how is it?
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: tenbones on June 10, 2021, 01:55:17 PM
    In an unrelated, but sort of related question, do you play the Savage Worlds iteration of Pathfinder?    If so, how is it?

I have it. I'm *excited* as fuck about it. I've been saying SW can do D&D-fantasy better than D&D. SWPF has zero of the stupid shit people are complaining about. It's D&D Fantasy on the SWADE chassis, Golarion "as a setting" in the core rules is pretty light and easily done away with.

The way they handle Classes - as Class Edges is *precisely* what I figured they're were going to do after seeing how they handled Savage Rifts. They make classes optional Class Edges which are packages that offer options at each rank. And they're optional - you don't have to take a Class Edge at all.

They captured the flavor of D&D without any of the issues - no LFQM, no AC debates, no scaling problems (in fact because it's SW and Rifts exists, the scaling possibilities are INSANE as you can import Rifts rules right into the game without missing a beat).

I'm not even going to use the Pathfinder setting when I start using it - which will be soon. I'm working on a homebrew campaign with custom Class, and Prestige Edges specific for my setting and going hog-wild. I'm also planning on converting SWPF to have Spelljammer rules...
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: oggsmash on June 10, 2021, 02:11:08 PM
    In an unrelated, but sort of related question, do you play the Savage Worlds iteration of Pathfinder?    If so, how is it?

I have it. I'm *excited* as fuck about it. I've been saying SW can do D&D-fantasy better than D&D. SWPF has zero of the stupid shit people are complaining about. It's D&D Fantasy on the SWADE chassis, Golarion "as a setting" in the core rules is pretty light and easily done away with.

The way they handle Classes - as Class Edges is *precisely* what I figured they're were going to do after seeing how they handled Savage Rifts. They make classes optional Class Edges which are packages that offer options at each rank. And they're optional - you don't have to take a Class Edge at all.

They captured the flavor of D&D without any of the issues - no LFQM, no AC debates, no scaling problems (in fact because it's SW and Rifts exists, the scaling possibilities are INSANE as you can import Rifts rules right into the game without missing a beat).

I'm not even going to use the Pathfinder setting when I start using it - which will be soon. I'm working on a homebrew campaign with custom Class, and Prestige Edges specific for my setting and going hog-wild. I'm also planning on converting SWPF to have Spelljammer rules...

   I figured it would be good.  In my experience SW can do pulp, sword and sorcery, Rifts as you mentioned, and it seems with tweaks even better high fantasy than vanilla (which IMO it does pretty well).
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: HappyDaze on June 10, 2021, 02:49:48 PM
    In an unrelated, but sort of related question, do you play the Savage Worlds iteration of Pathfinder?    If so, how is it?

I have it. I'm *excited* as fuck about it. I've been saying SW can do D&D-fantasy better than D&D. SWPF has zero of the stupid shit people are complaining about. It's D&D Fantasy on the SWADE chassis, Golarion "as a setting" in the core rules is pretty light and easily done away with.

The way they handle Classes - as Class Edges is *precisely* what I figured they're were going to do after seeing how they handled Savage Rifts. They make classes optional Class Edges which are packages that offer options at each rank. And they're optional - you don't have to take a Class Edge at all.

They captured the flavor of D&D without any of the issues - no LFQM, no AC debates, no scaling problems (in fact because it's SW and Rifts exists, the scaling possibilities are INSANE as you can import Rifts rules right into the game without missing a beat).

I'm not even going to use the Pathfinder setting when I start using it - which will be soon. I'm working on a homebrew campaign with custom Class, and Prestige Edges specific for my setting and going hog-wild. I'm also planning on converting SWPF to have Spelljammer rules...
Did they ban alignment?  8)
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: tenbones on June 10, 2021, 03:36:36 PM
    In an unrelated, but sort of related question, do you play the Savage Worlds iteration of Pathfinder?    If so, how is it?

I have it. I'm *excited* as fuck about it. I've been saying SW can do D&D-fantasy better than D&D. SWPF has zero of the stupid shit people are complaining about. It's D&D Fantasy on the SWADE chassis, Golarion "as a setting" in the core rules is pretty light and easily done away with.

The way they handle Classes - as Class Edges is *precisely* what I figured they're were going to do after seeing how they handled Savage Rifts. They make classes optional Class Edges which are packages that offer options at each rank. And they're optional - you don't have to take a Class Edge at all.

They captured the flavor of D&D without any of the issues - no LFQM, no AC debates, no scaling problems (in fact because it's SW and Rifts exists, the scaling possibilities are INSANE as you can import Rifts rules right into the game without missing a beat).

I'm not even going to use the Pathfinder setting when I start using it - which will be soon. I'm working on a homebrew campaign with custom Class, and Prestige Edges specific for my setting and going hog-wild. I'm also planning on converting SWPF to have Spelljammer rules...
Did they ban alignment?  8)

It exists only as a demarcation of Evil, Neutral or Good and isn't even something that matters outside of axiomatic concerns of the Gods (which have Alignment - Good, Neutral, Evil).

It's like I've always said - things that are evil, are. Things that are good, are. It's not that Devils and Demons have some outlier that's Good. They're EVIL. Unless there is a specific reason, everyone is good/neutral/evil and their ethos are defined by their gameplay. To the classes/PC's that matter there is a power called Detect Alignment for those that wanna hunt people and kill them for their beliefs and actions.

Where D&D5e has dropped the ball - Savage Worlds is keeping it real.


DROW
Drow society is corrupt and evil, ruling vast subterranean cities through fear and might. Many worship demons and enslave other peoples, and so are among the underworld’s most feared and despised denizens .

A powerful nobility rules over drow society. The nobles are governed by sadistic and dangerous matriarchs who constantly plot and scheme against rival houses—and lesser kin within their own families. The majority of drow are common soldiers and decadent citizenry, using this base profile.

Type: Evil Humanoid (Drow)
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Toran Ironfinder on June 10, 2021, 05:12:20 PM
I'm not woke, I consider the intellectual frameworks the Woke operate within to be simply bad. I actually thought of looking for a PBP game to get away from that nonsense, since I've been dealing with woke authors in reading for a dissertation.  But when it comes to gaming, take in some perspective, you can choose who you want to play with, if you like me don't want the woke at the table or virtual table, well don't invite them, or leave a disclaimer, if someone whines about it, well tell them directly why you don't want them there, don't use hyperbolic language, don't use insults, just note something like, "I find Woke ideology to be poorly thought out and constructed questionbegging, and it can be particularly tiresome given the tendency of the woke to attempt to psychologize their political opponents or who otherwise seem to argue that they know my mind better than I do. This is no conducive to the rest and relaxation I need right now." Its honest, but not personal, and might provide some food for thought.

When it comes to rule sets and the woke, well, let them play their game, RPGers have often tended to create their own worlds anyway, so even with the DnD Multiverse, you can create your own prime, or use an earlier edition. Some people are stuck on rules, personally, I like the WEG D6, most of my RPG experience is Star Wars, bad experience as a teen with DnD, but I played a bit of MSH once, and Mechwarrior once or twice (at least I think it was Mechwarrior). There are universal systems that can be used as toolboxes for whatever you want, OpenD6, Mutants and Masterminds, someone mentioned Savage worlds, I have no experience with that, but it sounds like it would work, etc. If you are stuck on old school DnD, then you likely already have your materials, and you can send newbies information from retroclones. If not, well, there are free systems, etc., available.

The woke will either escalate into something like the cultural revolution, and neither complaining here, nor arguing with them will change that outcome; or they will burn out on the ultra-left nonsense the same way boomers did when they found the hippie lifestyle didn't work in real life, idealism untempered by realism will often lose because in the end, reality tends to win. Don't get so caught up in the moment's debates that you forget the goal is to have fun, rest, and recharge, and don't forget, some of these movements have been very temporary.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 11, 2021, 02:03:40 PM
I say reject the idea of IPs as something you remain 'loyal' too, and SJWs won't have an in to exploit it.

I agree to the premise of just rejecting modern D&D altogether. Let it die.

THANK YOU! I've been screaming this from the roof tops for years now.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 11, 2021, 02:11:37 PM
I also felt that Ravenloft 5e was a turning point. I pointed out ratings on Amazon in the first thread you linked. And while Ravenloft started out with super low ratings, it has normalized. So much so that it looks like it will be a huge commercial success. So, in that, I was wrong. It seems the average consumer has not yet flipped a switch on WOTC.

I did have an exchange with Mistwell in that thread. After looking at posting history, I now realize this individual has no interest in honest conversation. Lesson learned, but I will not waste moving forward. Their approach to this community and conversation is dishonest.

While I was wrong about the overall TTRPG community reaction to Ravenloft, I firmly believe this is the crack in the foundation. They are at a tipping point and they show no signs of being able to help themselves.

But then I look at the other products out there. Outside of Pundit and a couple others, it is all the same shit. I am left with the conclusion that the best thing to do moving forward is:

1. Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

2. Purchase Basic D&D, 1e and 2e products

3. Purchase core 5e D&D

Those are in descending order intentionally. Outside of that, do not spend a nickel on other products, kickstarters, or companies. And unlike the woke, I am only saying what I plan to do...by no means am I telling anybody else how to spend their hard earned money.

Re your points 2 & 3: NO! that's putting money in their pockets to keep financing the woke BS.

Do not buy from people that despise you and would gladly see you dead. And even if you're not right wing, if you're a nanometer to the right of Mao that's what they want for you and yours.

I fully oppose telling people how to spend their money. I clearly stated they were in descending order intentionally.

It seems we are in agreement around point one? Does it help if I clarify that point two is NOT buying reprints? By Basic/1e/2e products, I am referring to actual books produced by TSR that already exist in the market. Buying from Glenn on eBay or from his local game store does not help anybody but Glenn.

Point three is where we will likely not find common ground. I believe an across the board dip in sales would be interpreted by WOTC in a manner less likely to produce change. I am in my third decade of working for large companies, both privately held and public. Maintaining core product sales this late in the lifecycle, with unpopular/dead sales for newer support products is how new product leads get named and/or recent hiring decisions get evaluated.

For the record, my opinion doesn't and can't negate your freedom to do whatever you wish.

I fully agree on point two then.

As for point 3 I have no problem with an IP dying, much less a corporation, I learned the hard way (thanks woke cultists!) to divest myself of any emotional attachment to stuff that I don't control.

So far I have droped the habit of buying any Marvel/DC comics after over 40 years of reading/collecting mainly their stuff. Switched to independents and a few small publishers.

I do not buy anything from Woke of the Coast, Baizuo, Evil Hat, etc. I buy S&W, Basic Fantasy, and some stuff by smaller independent authors and publishers.

You do you, but buying anything from the woke corporations doesn't do anything but put money in their pockets... Now, buying from Glen on ebay doesn't...
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: TJS on June 11, 2021, 09:28:22 PM
... and this is why it's time people just let "D&D" as a brand go. It's already gone. There is little use in complaining about it, because it's not coming back to whatever it is you want it to be in some former iteration.

It's now part of the Woke Corporate Complex. And everyone is free to partake of it as much as they want. But the longer this goes on, the more it feels like co-dependency (unless you have a motivation like click-chasing, or getting "likes") in griping about how WotC's latest dick-slap to your face has offended us, and the SJW-goblin gloating that will echo through the interwebz at you while demeaning you as an istphobe becomes the same ol' circle jerk where we recapitulate all the slights to date. rinse/repeat.

There IS no coming back in modern D&D. You got your previous editions. You got the OSR. You got other systems, that *are* better mechanically, and you got every ability to recreate and/or improve upon your previous experiences with others. Do it.

How many proverbial punches to the face do you have to take before you realize you're not wanted unless you bend the knee to their new direction? I don't see why it's even an issue.

This.

The devotion of the trpg hobby to the one true brand is weird. 

People obviously can learn new systems, they do it with computer games all the time.  It's like everyone was still playing Wizardry games or something.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Batjon on June 11, 2021, 10:51:46 PM
I have the original Ravenloft 5e book.  How woke is the new Ravenloft casket boxed set version?
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Jam The MF on June 12, 2021, 01:40:11 PM
I also felt that Ravenloft 5e was a turning point. I pointed out ratings on Amazon in the first thread you linked. And while Ravenloft started out with super low ratings, it has normalized. So much so that it looks like it will be a huge commercial success. So, in that, I was wrong. It seems the average consumer has not yet flipped a switch on WOTC.

I did have an exchange with Mistwell in that thread. After looking at posting history, I now realize this individual has no interest in honest conversation. Lesson learned, but I will not waste moving forward. Their approach to this community and conversation is dishonest.

While I was wrong about the overall TTRPG community reaction to Ravenloft, I firmly believe this is the crack in the foundation. They are at a tipping point and they show no signs of being able to help themselves.

But then I look at the other products out there. Outside of Pundit and a couple others, it is all the same shit. I am left with the conclusion that the best thing to do moving forward is:

1. Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

2. Purchase Basic D&D, 1e and 2e products

3. Purchase core 5e D&D

Those are in descending order intentionally. Outside of that, do not spend a nickel on other products, kickstarters, or companies. And unlike the woke, I am only saying what I plan to do...by no means am I telling anybody else how to spend their hard earned money.

Re your points 2 & 3: NO! that's putting money in their pockets to keep financing the woke BS.

Do not buy from people that despise you and would gladly see you dead. And even if you're not right wing, if you're a nanometer to the right of Mao that's what they want for you and yours.

I fully oppose telling people how to spend their money. I clearly stated they were in descending order intentionally.

It seems we are in agreement around point one? Does it help if I clarify that point two is NOT buying reprints? By Basic/1e/2e products, I am referring to actual books produced by TSR that already exist in the market. Buying from Glenn on eBay or from his local game store does not help anybody but Glenn.

Point three is where we will likely not find common ground. I believe an across the board dip in sales would be interpreted by WOTC in a manner less likely to produce change. I am in my third decade of working for large companies, both privately held and public. Maintaining core product sales this late in the lifecycle, with unpopular/dead sales for newer support products is how new product leads get named and/or recent hiring decisions get evaluated.

For the record, my opinion doesn't and can't negate your freedom to do whatever you wish.

I fully agree on point two then.

As for point 3 I have no problem with an IP dying, much less a corporation, I learned the hard way (thanks woke cultists!) to divest myself of any emotional attachment to stuff that I don't control.

So far I have droped the habit of buying any Marvel/DC comics after over 40 years of reading/collecting mainly their stuff. Switched to independents and a few small publishers.

I do not buy anything from Woke of the Coast, Baizuo, Evil Hat, etc. I buy S&W, Basic Fantasy, and some stuff by smaller independent authors and publishers.

You do you, but buying anything from the woke corporations doesn't do anything but put money in their pockets... Now, buying from Glen on ebay doesn't...


"Woke of the Coast" has a nice ring to it.  They might not even consider it an insult.
Title: Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
Post by: Omega on June 12, 2021, 05:46:46 PM
I have the original Ravenloft 5e book.  How woke is the new Ravenloft casket boxed set version?

Assuming the Beyond version was the same as the print version. YMMV.

Alot of the bothersome bits are, like with Curse of Strahd, mostly in the first few pages and the rest is, far as I can tell, overall lacking in annoyances of the SJW sort. The Visthani are the most notable change.

But its also lacking in much detail on each domain and is mostly a "make your own domain" ruleset and a large section devoted to explaining different sorts of horror and how to personalize it and make encounters unique or unusual.