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Author Topic: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory  (Read 3104 times)

Jaeger

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Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« on: June 02, 2021, 08:51:26 PM »
From this thread: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-dumbest-thing-in-new-woke-ravenloft/180/

And, again, your theory is complete nonsense lacking even a shred of evidential support and in the realm of lunatic conspiracy theorist screaming about the end of the world on the street corner.

Here are I think the main issues at play here:

1) People here believe "Get Woke Go Broke" is a universal truth; and
2) People here believe WOTC has "Gotten Woke"; therefore
3) People here think WOTC will "Go Broke" (whatever that term means in this context).
.

Again with this?

Serving number three coming up:

1) "People here believe "Get Woke Go Broke" is a universal truth"   

We’ve already had this conversation:

Here: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/will-the-current-woke-environment-hasten-or-delay-a-wotc-commitment-to-6th-ed/msg1161368/#msg1161368

And here: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/dd-is-selling-great-why-not-sell-it-now/90/


2) "People here believe WOTC has "Gotten Woke"."

They hired Jessica Price for the nu-Ravenloft book. Q.E.D.


3) "People here think WOTC will "Go Broke" (whatever that term means in this context)."

Disingenuous again. You know full well from our past conversations on this issue in the links I provided in my answer to your first point exactly what context is being used.

You're just regurgitating your woke = not broke talking points on a loop tape now.


That being said; there are issues which will effect D&D’s woke demise.

Up until recently 5e has been very “woke lite”.  The woke in 5e has been at a low level for most of its run. Love of a decent edition of D&D in the post 4e world has overridden any pushback that minor woke inclusions might otherwise have brought. Only now with the last few books – and especially Ravenloft, do we see the woke dial starting to be turned up…

Remember that even in the case of the Superhero Comic book industry, and the Dr. Who tv show, it took a minimum of 5-7 years for them to go from their relative peak to woke collapse.

And I'm fairly safe in saying that 5e’s sales have not quite yet reached their peak. There is tremendous pop-culture inertia boosting D&D right now.

So at a minimum, once 5e’s peak selling point has been identified, we still have 5-7 years to watch the woke drive D&D into the ground.



And there are good reasons to believe that some unique features of the RPG market may lengthen that timeline.

1: RPG fans are very IP loyal. D&D fans will be very reluctant to abandon their beloved D&D for a non-woke competitor.

You can see this effect with the Pathfinder/4e situation. The instant D&D gave them a reason to come back with 5e, Pathfinder got buried in WOTC’s dust.


2: There is a big collector element in the RPG hobby. Whether or not the books get used or are even actually good, the relaxed release schedule WOTC has been following is tailor made for the ‘completists’ out there. Lots of book buying is happening just by IP collector inertia. (The Conan 2d20 game is a great example of this effect…)


3: D&D is the market leader. This is HUGE. See reasons 1&2!

With 4e WOTC created a viable competitor by accident with baizuo’s Pathfinder. But those same conditions are not around now. Plus baizuo is already woke as fuck, and IMHO mechanically going in the wrong direction to make a real impact into D&D when WOTC goes full woke. (Full woke is inevitable…)

Pathfinder was a very important check on 4e. It gave people an immediate, well supported alternative for playing “D&D” when 4e flung poo at itself. But baizuo as a company was in a unique position that made them essentially ready to go as a 4e competitor when that deuce dropped.

4e being straight up beat by 3e's clone was a big factor in the quick turnaround to 5e.


4: There is no current d20 RPG company on the horizon that is in a similar position to step into that viable competitor space when WOTC turns the woke dial to 11 and starts hating on its fanbase good and proper.

The cost of real competition is high. A full game + 3-6 supplements per year with great production values. It’s a tall fucking order...

People love their D&D, and they will walk away without a viable alternative rather than switch to a system like WHFRP.


I think that without a viable alternative to a future woke-as-fuck 6e D&D. WOTC will start to do to the RPG industry what DC and Marvel have done to American superhero comics.

I believe that D&D's recent growth has been on such a scale that they could lose half of the current fanbase and still be the #1 selling RPG by a comfortable margin. And as long as SJW's can point to a WOKE D&D being the #1 RPG; they will continually declare complete and total victory.

And no, we cannot count on them learning their lesson once sales start to plummet.

We need to keep in mind that Marvel comics is still the "number one" superhero comics publisher in a woke-collapsed industry.

And as of March 2021 they still think this is a good idea:
https://nerdist.com/article/marvel-introduces-lgbtq-captain-america-in-new-series/
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 11:59:11 PM by Jaeger »
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FingerRod

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2021, 09:36:28 PM »
I also felt that Ravenloft 5e was a turning point. I pointed out ratings on Amazon in the first thread you linked. And while Ravenloft started out with super low ratings, it has normalized. So much so that it looks like it will be a huge commercial success. So, in that, I was wrong. It seems the average consumer has not yet flipped a switch on WOTC.

I did have an exchange with Mistwell in that thread. After looking at posting history, I now realize this individual has no interest in honest conversation. Lesson learned, but I will not waste moving forward. Their approach to this community and conversation is dishonest.

While I was wrong about the overall TTRPG community reaction to Ravenloft, I firmly believe this is the crack in the foundation. They are at a tipping point and they show no signs of being able to help themselves.

But then I look at the other products out there. Outside of Pundit and a couple others, it is all the same shit. I am left with the conclusion that the best thing to do moving forward is:

1. Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

2. Purchase Basic D&D, 1e and 2e products

3. Purchase core 5e D&D

Those are in descending order intentionally. Outside of that, do not spend a nickel on other products, kickstarters, or companies. And unlike the woke, I am only saying what I plan to do...by no means am I telling anybody else how to spend their hard earned money.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 09:50:20 PM by FingerRod »

Jam The MF

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2021, 11:56:45 PM »
The risk they will likely take; is that if product stills sells well whilst including a little obviously woke content, then they will probably double down on it just to virtue signal.  They may well move from having a couple of woke sentences per book, to having a few pages of woke content per book.  At some point, many non-LGBTQ fans will vomit.
I need you to roll a perception check.

ShieldWife

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2021, 12:17:12 AM »
Unfortunately, the saying “Get woke, go broke.” isn’t always true. That doesn’t mean that it’s an insane conspiracy theory, just that it’s a generalization that sometimes holds true and sometimes does not.

I would certainly agree that often a focus on pushing a leftist agenda causes some form of entertainment to make less money than it might otherwise, especially if that leftism is forced in at the expense of quality and/or if the creators deliberately show contempt for the fans. Sometimes the media produced still makes big bucks though, especially if the woke agenda can be skillfully and subtly included, which lets be honest, has been an effective policy in Hollywood for a century.

Unfortunately, most fans are rather apolitical and apathetic and they will overlook, if not be outright oblivious, to all but the most blatant propaganda.

So conservatives should avoiding celebrating too much about GWGB, the woke still have all the money and power and they are willing and able to sacrifice a small amount of money to saturate all forms of entertainment with their propaganda.

Zelen

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2021, 01:14:48 AM »
If I could predict the future effectively I'd be a lot wealthier than I am right now.

Overall I think the general analysis of the situation by the OP is more or less correct. On the sales side D&D book sales are insulated from critique simply because the hobby as a whole is very much dependent on existing social groups in a way that other forms of entertainment aren't.

The bigger problem that people should notice, but generally don't, is who is getting hired to write these books. WotC could easily farm out work to people who are excellent designers, storytellers, artists, and other assorted craftsmen -- But who don't bring a controversial agenda to the table. Instead they purposefully bring on people who are outspoken bigots and zealots first. It really speaks to the highly incestuous and insular nature of the culture in WotC.

The optimistic perspective is that D&D doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's important to acknowledge that the changes that hatemongers are attempting to foist upon D&D are part of a broader strategy to colonize all cultural spaces. If people are going to get fed up with this stuff, they're going to get fed up not from D&D but from something else. However, that doesn't mean they won't carry that attitude over into D&D. It's not like there is a shortage of RPGs out there. Once people look at D&D and realize this product is now made with a deep loathing of the people who actually made D&D successful -- There isn't anything to keep someone there.

Zelen

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2021, 02:15:09 AM »
The cost of real competition is high. A full game + 3-6 supplements per year with great production values. It’s a tall fucking order...

People love their D&D, and they will walk away without a viable alternative rather than switch to a system like WHFRP.

I think that without a viable alternative to a future woke-as-fuck 6e D&D. WOTC will start to do to the RPG industry what DC and Marvel have done to American superhero comics.

I believe that D&D's recent growth has been on such a scale that they could lose half of the current fanbase and still be the #1 selling RPG by a comfortable margin. And as long as SJW's can point to a WOKE D&D being the #1 RPG; they will continually declare complete and total victory.

And no, we cannot count on them learning their lesson once sales start to plummet.

We need to keep in mind that Marvel comics is still the "number one" superhero comics publisher in a woke-collapsed industry.

And as of March 2021 they still think this is a good idea:
https://nerdist.com/article/marvel-introduces-lgbtq-captain-america-in-new-series/

This scenario has been playing out in real time in comics. The ComicsGate guys are regularly outselling Marvel, and are growing in an industry that's otherwise shrinking. (It also helps that there's Manga to look at as a point of comparison.) Before ComicsGate guys, I hadn't bought comics in over a decade -- Now I'm actually back into comics again. I just am not buying anything Marvel or DC.

The hurdles are pretty big, admittedly. Media that reports on comics is regularly and blatantly biased against ComicsGate (e.g. characterizing it as a "harassment campaign"). I'm not even sure if they have penetration into comics stores, although I know that was a big push for awhile. Either way, the infrastructure to support their work didn't exist, and yet they are still succeeding.

I like to imagine a similar thing is possible for RPGs. I know I've got a monthly RPG budget burning a hole in my wallet for their products.

Jaeger

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2021, 02:16:24 AM »
Unfortunately, the saying “Get woke, go broke.” isn’t always true. That doesn’t mean that it’s an insane conspiracy theory, just that it’s a generalization that sometimes holds true and sometimes does not.

I'll quibble a bit and say all things being equal, it is true.

When you alienate your consumer base, in a fair market their is only one outcome.

But as you go on to point out; things are not always equal...


I would certainly agree that often a focus on pushing a leftist agenda causes some form of entertainment to make less money than it might otherwise, especially if that leftism is forced in at the expense of quality and/or if the creators deliberately show contempt for the fans. Sometimes the media produced still makes big bucks though, especially if the woke agenda can be skillfully and subtly included, which lets be honest, has been an effective policy in Hollywood for a century.

Big megacorp entertainment companies now have revenue streams that can keep them going for years even as they hemorrhage cash through open wokeness.

That is why the wokeoso's target traditional institutions and iconic IP for infiltration and convergence.

Institutional inertia and market position are big factors why these companies can afford to just throw cash away on woke nonsense.

Normies love their favorite brands and IP just as much as gamers like their favorite RPG IP, and are just as loathe to set it aside.

And yes, in spite of the good movies that were made. Hollywood has always been a cultural cesspit. I know exactly what you are talking about. Because; Every. Single. Time...



Unfortunately, most fans are rather apolitical and apathetic and they will overlook, if not be outright oblivious, to all but the most blatant propaganda.

So conservatives should avoiding celebrating too much about GWGB, the woke still have all the money and power and they are willing and able to sacrifice a small amount of money to saturate all forms of entertainment with their propaganda.

I agree people are loath to take offense lest they be labeled an ist-a-phobe of some kind. Also stupidity.

But the wokeoso's feel that they no longer have to be subtle about anything and it is showing more and more.

That is both a good and bad thing as it forces people to pick a side because silence is violence.


...
The bigger problem that people should notice, but generally don't, is who is getting hired to write these books. WotC could easily farm out work to people who are excellent designers, storytellers, artists, and other assorted craftsmen -- But who don't bring a controversial agenda to the table. Instead they purposefully bring on people who are outspoken bigots and zealots first. It really speaks to the highly incestuous and insular nature of the culture in WotC.

In 20/20 hindsight D&D was destined for wokeness the day they were bought by WOTC.

You can see the cultural seeds of it in various snippets Jonathan Tweet and Monte Cook wrote about their time designing 3e.

D&D is run by a different culture than the one that created it. And they were never going to hire anyone who did not kowtow to their liberal Seattle values.

The current pop-culture upswing D&D is experiencing is giving D&D a longer lease on 5e's edition life, and even though it was not due to anything WOTC did, it has given the current heads of D&D the financial confidence to start to turn up the woke dial.


Once people look at D&D and realize this product is now made with a deep loathing of the people who actually made D&D successful -- There isn't anything to keep someone there.

I agree, but given what we have seen of human nature, and given D&D's current market position, this process will take much longer than one would otherwise think.

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Omega

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2021, 07:02:58 AM »
I think Ravenloft is working because it is not what they claimed it would be. Everything I have seen so far shows it to be another case of what they say and what they do being nearly opposed.

The other reason its selling is that its got a few new class options in it.

And lastly because of hype and more importantly outrage marketing. They played people like Pundit with overinflated info that made it look more woke than it really is. Then sit back and get free advertising as everyone bitches about it. This draws in the curious to see if its as bad as the claims and invariably its not, making Pundit and others look like fools or grifters.

oggsmash

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2021, 07:37:54 AM »
  Who they hire says if they are headed to woke or not.  Universities most certainly went hard in the paint on going woke for decades.  Would anyone try to argue major universities are not woke now?   I do think a few people hired could shift WOTC more woke,  but honestly I do not care.  I bought all I will from them, and will not buy more.   The most honest reason is I have all I will ever need from them.  I do not care for the woke appeals, or Crawford talking about his husband for minutes at a time when supposedly putting out a video to discuss D&D.  I would not care for a dude discussing his wife either when I tune in for game info.   I have no idea if this was Crawford just being a goober, or if he wants to make extra special certain the world knows he has a husband. 

    Once they start taking a tone where significant gay characters show up, just to be gay.... I do not know what that does to them.  The general population is made up of a tiny fraction of people with such proclivities, the gaming population has always been more tolerant of literally everyone so no idea how much it causes trouble.  I do think of a few humorous moments where perceptions have been of the high school jock proclaiming "this is GAY" after picking up an RPG book; and how funny it will be when he opens a books to a picture two dudes making out over a slain dragon. 

Reckall

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2021, 07:47:39 AM »
We need to keep in mind that Marvel comics is still the "number one" superhero comics publisher in a woke-collapsed industry.

And as of March 2021 they still think this is a good idea:
https://nerdist.com/article/marvel-introduces-lgbtq-captain-america-in-new-series/

Except for the fact that, as of April, 2021, the Top 20 adult graphic novels sold in the USA (a genre, to be clear, that includes "Watchmen", "The Killing Joke", "Hellboy" etc.) were all manga.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/48284/april-2021-npd-bookscan-top-20-adult-graphic-novels

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Charon's Little Helper

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2021, 08:01:34 AM »
We need to keep in mind that Marvel comics is still the "number one" superhero comics publisher in a woke-collapsed industry.

And as of March 2021 they still think this is a good idea:
https://nerdist.com/article/marvel-introduces-lgbtq-captain-america-in-new-series/

Except for the fact that, as of April, 2021, the Top 20 adult graphic novels sold in the USA (a genre, to be clear, that includes "Watchmen", "The Killing Joke", "Hellboy" etc.) were all manga.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/48284/april-2021-npd-bookscan-top-20-adult-graphic-novels

That doesn't really surprise me.

For one thing - manga actually tell a story. Even for comics I like - it feels like most are just treading the same ground over and over again. And comics are far more expensive due to focusing (IMO) more on high quality artwork than high quality story. Buying manga isn't super cheap, but it isn't the major expense that buying graphic novels can be. Manga are primarily black & white so that they can churn out more pages.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2021, 08:19:32 AM »
Maybe the argument should be that if a company goes woke and alienates its primary income stream, then it most certainly will 'go broke'.

Keep in mind that large corporations have considerable reserves and assets as well as alternate income streams to deflect the losses they take. Hence why movie companies can afford to put out some real stinkers and 'woke' bombs and not collapse.

HappyDaze

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2021, 08:22:20 AM »
And lastly because of hype and more importantly outrage marketing. They played people like Pundit with overinflated info that made it look more woke than it really is. Then sit back and get free advertising as everyone bitches about it. This draws in the curious to see if its as bad as the claims and invariably its not, making Pundit and others look like fools or grifters.
This works both ways. Pundit follows the clicks, and so far, Ravenloft has gotten him enough that he's featured it in four of his own videos plus quite a bit of attention on Inappropriate Characters. So there's mutual benefits here for both Pundit...and for those that 'despise' him.

HappyDaze

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2021, 08:25:44 AM »
Maybe the argument should be that if a company goes woke and alienates its primary income stream, then it most certainly will 'go broke'.
Who comprises WotC's primary income stream? From their own figures, it's not people aged 40+ and I'd guess isn't likely composed of people who care one bit about older D&D. For their targeted income stream, they are happy to alienate the old guard because it might actually make their product more attractive.

hedgehobbit

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2021, 08:34:46 AM »
Who comprises WotC's primary income stream? From their own figures, it's not people aged 40+ and I'd guess isn't likely composed of people who care one bit about older D&D. For their targeted income stream, they are happy to alienate the old guard because it might actually make their product more attractive.

While I'm an old fart, I have three teenage kids. They and their friends treat all this "inclusion" stuff as a joke. It's a very similar reaction to how my generation viewed the conservative Christian dogma that was prevalent in the 80s. Basically, they laugh at all the woke boomer preaching.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 08:37:29 AM by hedgehobbit »