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Author Topic: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory  (Read 3107 times)

Ghostmaker

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2021, 08:35:51 AM »
Which is a hell of a thing. I mean, yeah, you had the usual arguments about editions from 1E to 4E, but holy shit I don't think I ever met a 3E player who advocated tossing the old 2E material on a fire.

  Well, there was that one player who posted pictures of burning his 4E books, but he was an outlier, 4E was an outlier, and I'm not sure whether it was real or not. :)
I've said this before but it bears repeating. From a mechanical standpoint, 4E wasn't bad. But it did not look, feel, or play like D&D. If they'd called it 'D&D Tactics' or something, or 'Chainmail 2' I don't think people would've been as nearly irked by it.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2021, 09:07:18 AM »
I've said this before but it bears repeating. From a mechanical standpoint, 4E wasn't bad. But it did not look, feel, or play like D&D. If they'd called it 'D&D Tactics' or something, or 'Chainmail 2' I don't think people would've been as nearly irked by it.

   I've taken a similar point of view. 4E is, of itself, a very good game--but it's not very good at being 'traditional D&D', and it was marketed as a replacement that moved away from that at the same time that a lot of the hobby was looking back to the roots. Doing it as a variant or spinoff would probably have worked well enough, but WotC has a pathological aversion to splitting the market or diluting the Desecrated Brand. :)

Charon's Little Helper

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2021, 09:13:44 AM »
Which is a hell of a thing. I mean, yeah, you had the usual arguments about editions from 1E to 4E, but holy shit I don't think I ever met a 3E player who advocated tossing the old 2E material on a fire.

  Well, there was that one player who posted pictures of burning his 4E books, but he was an outlier, 4E was an outlier, and I'm not sure whether it was real or not. :)
I've said this before but it bears repeating. From a mechanical standpoint, 4E wasn't bad. But it did not look, feel, or play like D&D. If they'd called it 'D&D Tactics' or something, or 'Chainmail 2' I don't think people would've been as nearly irked by it.

It had decent bones - but even as a pure tactics game there were issues.

The HP bloat was real. That combined with the multitude of tiny bonuses/penalties to track made combat crawl. Several other factors that were significant issues which went beyond how it was sold.

There were a lot of pieces of 4e that I liked. Minions and really embracing pushing/moving foes & allies are things that were cool. But the whole... not so much.

Puffin Forest does a good job of explaining my general feel for 4e. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpmUxfS4LF8&ab_channel=PuffinForest

Omega

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2021, 10:51:34 AM »
On that note, it seems the main strategy seems to be denigrating the TSR stuff as so very uncultured and outdated in perspective in comparison to their fine products.  Trash the source that set the standards, to show how far WotC has come and how sensitive they are.  Such a brave and bold gesture, on behalf of the RPG 'community'.  Aren't we lucky to have them spinning the marketing wheel for the hobby.

Seen this in animation too where older cartoons which were rather progressive for their times are now being decried as having a mere "token minority". But that was a tactic in the last two iterations as well. Parker from the original Alien movie was declared this way back for example.

At the onset of this 2010 version sure enough people, even a few here, were pointing at older editions of D&D and declaring them wacist because they didnt have "enough" minorities in them. Or trying to "prove" Gary was racist by showing that this or that race was not "really" dark skinned, etc.

Round and round we go. And we will be having this exact same conversation adout the 2030 iteration. Except now they will be the "Uplifters" or some other trendy term to sucker a new generation. "Championing" for the "Downtrodden Percentage" (Because "People of Colour" is racist now of course.) Protecting them from the evil "Thinkers"... yeah.

tenbones

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #79 on: June 10, 2021, 01:13:58 PM »
... and this is why it's time people just let "D&D" as a brand go. It's already gone. There is little use in complaining about it, because it's not coming back to whatever it is you want it to be in some former iteration.

It's now part of the Woke Corporate Complex. And everyone is free to partake of it as much as they want. But the longer this goes on, the more it feels like co-dependency (unless you have a motivation like click-chasing, or getting "likes") in griping about how WotC's latest dick-slap to your face has offended us, and the SJW-goblin gloating that will echo through the interwebz at you while demeaning you as an istphobe becomes the same ol' circle jerk where we recapitulate all the slights to date. rinse/repeat.

There IS no coming back in modern D&D. You got your previous editions. You got the OSR. You got other systems, that *are* better mechanically, and you got every ability to recreate and/or improve upon your previous experiences with others. Do it.

How many proverbial punches to the face do you have to take before you realize you're not wanted unless you bend the knee to their new direction? I don't see why it's even an issue.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 01:15:47 PM by tenbones »

oggsmash

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #80 on: June 10, 2021, 01:17:31 PM »
... and this is why it's time people just let "D&D" as a brand go. It's already gone. There is little use in complaining about it, because it's not coming back to whatever it is you want it to be in some former iteration.

It's now part of the Woke Corporate Complex. And everyone is free to partake of it as much as they want. But the longer this goes on, the more it feels like co-dependency (unless you have a motivation like click-chasing, or getting "likes") in griping about how WotC's latest dick-slap to your face has offended us, and the SJW-goblin gloating that will echo through the interwebz at you while demeaning you as an istphobe becomes the same ol' circle jerk where we recapitulate all the slights to date. rinse/repeat.

There IS no coming back in modern D&D. You got your previous editions. You got the OSR. You got other systems, that *are* better mechanically, and you got every ability to recreate and/or improve upon your previous experiences with others. Do it.

How many proverbial punches to the face do you have to take before you realize you're not wanted unless you bend the knee to their new direction? I don't see why it's even an issue.

    In an unrelated, but sort of related question, do you play the Savage Worlds iteration of Pathfinder?    If so, how is it?

tenbones

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #81 on: June 10, 2021, 01:55:17 PM »
    In an unrelated, but sort of related question, do you play the Savage Worlds iteration of Pathfinder?    If so, how is it?

I have it. I'm *excited* as fuck about it. I've been saying SW can do D&D-fantasy better than D&D. SWPF has zero of the stupid shit people are complaining about. It's D&D Fantasy on the SWADE chassis, Golarion "as a setting" in the core rules is pretty light and easily done away with.

The way they handle Classes - as Class Edges is *precisely* what I figured they're were going to do after seeing how they handled Savage Rifts. They make classes optional Class Edges which are packages that offer options at each rank. And they're optional - you don't have to take a Class Edge at all.

They captured the flavor of D&D without any of the issues - no LFQM, no AC debates, no scaling problems (in fact because it's SW and Rifts exists, the scaling possibilities are INSANE as you can import Rifts rules right into the game without missing a beat).

I'm not even going to use the Pathfinder setting when I start using it - which will be soon. I'm working on a homebrew campaign with custom Class, and Prestige Edges specific for my setting and going hog-wild. I'm also planning on converting SWPF to have Spelljammer rules...

oggsmash

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #82 on: June 10, 2021, 02:11:08 PM »
    In an unrelated, but sort of related question, do you play the Savage Worlds iteration of Pathfinder?    If so, how is it?

I have it. I'm *excited* as fuck about it. I've been saying SW can do D&D-fantasy better than D&D. SWPF has zero of the stupid shit people are complaining about. It's D&D Fantasy on the SWADE chassis, Golarion "as a setting" in the core rules is pretty light and easily done away with.

The way they handle Classes - as Class Edges is *precisely* what I figured they're were going to do after seeing how they handled Savage Rifts. They make classes optional Class Edges which are packages that offer options at each rank. And they're optional - you don't have to take a Class Edge at all.

They captured the flavor of D&D without any of the issues - no LFQM, no AC debates, no scaling problems (in fact because it's SW and Rifts exists, the scaling possibilities are INSANE as you can import Rifts rules right into the game without missing a beat).

I'm not even going to use the Pathfinder setting when I start using it - which will be soon. I'm working on a homebrew campaign with custom Class, and Prestige Edges specific for my setting and going hog-wild. I'm also planning on converting SWPF to have Spelljammer rules...

   I figured it would be good.  In my experience SW can do pulp, sword and sorcery, Rifts as you mentioned, and it seems with tweaks even better high fantasy than vanilla (which IMO it does pretty well).

HappyDaze

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #83 on: June 10, 2021, 02:49:48 PM »
    In an unrelated, but sort of related question, do you play the Savage Worlds iteration of Pathfinder?    If so, how is it?

I have it. I'm *excited* as fuck about it. I've been saying SW can do D&D-fantasy better than D&D. SWPF has zero of the stupid shit people are complaining about. It's D&D Fantasy on the SWADE chassis, Golarion "as a setting" in the core rules is pretty light and easily done away with.

The way they handle Classes - as Class Edges is *precisely* what I figured they're were going to do after seeing how they handled Savage Rifts. They make classes optional Class Edges which are packages that offer options at each rank. And they're optional - you don't have to take a Class Edge at all.

They captured the flavor of D&D without any of the issues - no LFQM, no AC debates, no scaling problems (in fact because it's SW and Rifts exists, the scaling possibilities are INSANE as you can import Rifts rules right into the game without missing a beat).

I'm not even going to use the Pathfinder setting when I start using it - which will be soon. I'm working on a homebrew campaign with custom Class, and Prestige Edges specific for my setting and going hog-wild. I'm also planning on converting SWPF to have Spelljammer rules...
Did they ban alignment?  8)

tenbones

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #84 on: June 10, 2021, 03:36:36 PM »
    In an unrelated, but sort of related question, do you play the Savage Worlds iteration of Pathfinder?    If so, how is it?

I have it. I'm *excited* as fuck about it. I've been saying SW can do D&D-fantasy better than D&D. SWPF has zero of the stupid shit people are complaining about. It's D&D Fantasy on the SWADE chassis, Golarion "as a setting" in the core rules is pretty light and easily done away with.

The way they handle Classes - as Class Edges is *precisely* what I figured they're were going to do after seeing how they handled Savage Rifts. They make classes optional Class Edges which are packages that offer options at each rank. And they're optional - you don't have to take a Class Edge at all.

They captured the flavor of D&D without any of the issues - no LFQM, no AC debates, no scaling problems (in fact because it's SW and Rifts exists, the scaling possibilities are INSANE as you can import Rifts rules right into the game without missing a beat).

I'm not even going to use the Pathfinder setting when I start using it - which will be soon. I'm working on a homebrew campaign with custom Class, and Prestige Edges specific for my setting and going hog-wild. I'm also planning on converting SWPF to have Spelljammer rules...
Did they ban alignment?  8)

It exists only as a demarcation of Evil, Neutral or Good and isn't even something that matters outside of axiomatic concerns of the Gods (which have Alignment - Good, Neutral, Evil).

It's like I've always said - things that are evil, are. Things that are good, are. It's not that Devils and Demons have some outlier that's Good. They're EVIL. Unless there is a specific reason, everyone is good/neutral/evil and their ethos are defined by their gameplay. To the classes/PC's that matter there is a power called Detect Alignment for those that wanna hunt people and kill them for their beliefs and actions.

Where D&D5e has dropped the ball - Savage Worlds is keeping it real.


DROW
Drow society is corrupt and evil, ruling vast subterranean cities through fear and might. Many worship demons and enslave other peoples, and so are among the underworld’s most feared and despised denizens .

A powerful nobility rules over drow society. The nobles are governed by sadistic and dangerous matriarchs who constantly plot and scheme against rival houses—and lesser kin within their own families. The majority of drow are common soldiers and decadent citizenry, using this base profile.

Type: Evil Humanoid (Drow)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 03:38:44 PM by tenbones »

Toran Ironfinder

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #85 on: June 10, 2021, 05:12:20 PM »
I'm not woke, I consider the intellectual frameworks the Woke operate within to be simply bad. I actually thought of looking for a PBP game to get away from that nonsense, since I've been dealing with woke authors in reading for a dissertation.  But when it comes to gaming, take in some perspective, you can choose who you want to play with, if you like me don't want the woke at the table or virtual table, well don't invite them, or leave a disclaimer, if someone whines about it, well tell them directly why you don't want them there, don't use hyperbolic language, don't use insults, just note something like, "I find Woke ideology to be poorly thought out and constructed questionbegging, and it can be particularly tiresome given the tendency of the woke to attempt to psychologize their political opponents or who otherwise seem to argue that they know my mind better than I do. This is no conducive to the rest and relaxation I need right now." Its honest, but not personal, and might provide some food for thought.

When it comes to rule sets and the woke, well, let them play their game, RPGers have often tended to create their own worlds anyway, so even with the DnD Multiverse, you can create your own prime, or use an earlier edition. Some people are stuck on rules, personally, I like the WEG D6, most of my RPG experience is Star Wars, bad experience as a teen with DnD, but I played a bit of MSH once, and Mechwarrior once or twice (at least I think it was Mechwarrior). There are universal systems that can be used as toolboxes for whatever you want, OpenD6, Mutants and Masterminds, someone mentioned Savage worlds, I have no experience with that, but it sounds like it would work, etc. If you are stuck on old school DnD, then you likely already have your materials, and you can send newbies information from retroclones. If not, well, there are free systems, etc., available.

The woke will either escalate into something like the cultural revolution, and neither complaining here, nor arguing with them will change that outcome; or they will burn out on the ultra-left nonsense the same way boomers did when they found the hippie lifestyle didn't work in real life, idealism untempered by realism will often lose because in the end, reality tends to win. Don't get so caught up in the moment's debates that you forget the goal is to have fun, rest, and recharge, and don't forget, some of these movements have been very temporary.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #86 on: June 11, 2021, 02:03:40 PM »
I say reject the idea of IPs as something you remain 'loyal' too, and SJWs won't have an in to exploit it.

I agree to the premise of just rejecting modern D&D altogether. Let it die.

THANK YOU! I've been screaming this from the roof tops for years now.
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

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GeekyBugle

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #87 on: June 11, 2021, 02:11:37 PM »
I also felt that Ravenloft 5e was a turning point. I pointed out ratings on Amazon in the first thread you linked. And while Ravenloft started out with super low ratings, it has normalized. So much so that it looks like it will be a huge commercial success. So, in that, I was wrong. It seems the average consumer has not yet flipped a switch on WOTC.

I did have an exchange with Mistwell in that thread. After looking at posting history, I now realize this individual has no interest in honest conversation. Lesson learned, but I will not waste moving forward. Their approach to this community and conversation is dishonest.

While I was wrong about the overall TTRPG community reaction to Ravenloft, I firmly believe this is the crack in the foundation. They are at a tipping point and they show no signs of being able to help themselves.

But then I look at the other products out there. Outside of Pundit and a couple others, it is all the same shit. I am left with the conclusion that the best thing to do moving forward is:

1. Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

2. Purchase Basic D&D, 1e and 2e products

3. Purchase core 5e D&D

Those are in descending order intentionally. Outside of that, do not spend a nickel on other products, kickstarters, or companies. And unlike the woke, I am only saying what I plan to do...by no means am I telling anybody else how to spend their hard earned money.

Re your points 2 & 3: NO! that's putting money in their pockets to keep financing the woke BS.

Do not buy from people that despise you and would gladly see you dead. And even if you're not right wing, if you're a nanometer to the right of Mao that's what they want for you and yours.

I fully oppose telling people how to spend their money. I clearly stated they were in descending order intentionally.

It seems we are in agreement around point one? Does it help if I clarify that point two is NOT buying reprints? By Basic/1e/2e products, I am referring to actual books produced by TSR that already exist in the market. Buying from Glenn on eBay or from his local game store does not help anybody but Glenn.

Point three is where we will likely not find common ground. I believe an across the board dip in sales would be interpreted by WOTC in a manner less likely to produce change. I am in my third decade of working for large companies, both privately held and public. Maintaining core product sales this late in the lifecycle, with unpopular/dead sales for newer support products is how new product leads get named and/or recent hiring decisions get evaluated.

For the record, my opinion doesn't and can't negate your freedom to do whatever you wish.

I fully agree on point two then.

As for point 3 I have no problem with an IP dying, much less a corporation, I learned the hard way (thanks woke cultists!) to divest myself of any emotional attachment to stuff that I don't control.

So far I have droped the habit of buying any Marvel/DC comics after over 40 years of reading/collecting mainly their stuff. Switched to independents and a few small publishers.

I do not buy anything from Woke of the Coast, Baizuo, Evil Hat, etc. I buy S&W, Basic Fantasy, and some stuff by smaller independent authors and publishers.

You do you, but buying anything from the woke corporations doesn't do anything but put money in their pockets... Now, buying from Glen on ebay doesn't...
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

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TJS

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #88 on: June 11, 2021, 09:28:22 PM »
... and this is why it's time people just let "D&D" as a brand go. It's already gone. There is little use in complaining about it, because it's not coming back to whatever it is you want it to be in some former iteration.

It's now part of the Woke Corporate Complex. And everyone is free to partake of it as much as they want. But the longer this goes on, the more it feels like co-dependency (unless you have a motivation like click-chasing, or getting "likes") in griping about how WotC's latest dick-slap to your face has offended us, and the SJW-goblin gloating that will echo through the interwebz at you while demeaning you as an istphobe becomes the same ol' circle jerk where we recapitulate all the slights to date. rinse/repeat.

There IS no coming back in modern D&D. You got your previous editions. You got the OSR. You got other systems, that *are* better mechanically, and you got every ability to recreate and/or improve upon your previous experiences with others. Do it.

How many proverbial punches to the face do you have to take before you realize you're not wanted unless you bend the knee to their new direction? I don't see why it's even an issue.

This.

The devotion of the trpg hobby to the one true brand is weird. 

People obviously can learn new systems, they do it with computer games all the time.  It's like everyone was still playing Wizardry games or something.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 01:29:31 AM by TJS »

Batjon

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Re: Woke D&D = Broke D&D: Is a Lunatic Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #89 on: June 11, 2021, 10:51:46 PM »
I have the original Ravenloft 5e book.  How woke is the new Ravenloft casket boxed set version?