Quote from: Primarch_XI on June 05, 2021, 05:14:51 PM
I think it's still kind of a false premise that you have to buy D&D at all.

Couldn't the list be:

• Buy the game your groups actively want to play
• Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

The first point is really just pragmatism as a gaming group doesn't need to be about politics first.

I buy games my group actively wants to play along with games that my group doesn't necessarily want to play but that interest me. I don't give two shits who's writing them, I'll buy them so long as they qualify in either of the first two categories and if they don't, then I won't buy them just to support some jackhole's politics.

Quote from: Primarch_XI on June 05, 2021, 05:14:51 PM

I think it's still kind of a false premise that you have to buy D&D at all.

Couldn't the list be:

• Buy the game your groups actively want to play
• Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

The first point is really just pragmatism as a gaming group doesn't need to be about politics first.

Welcome to the boards!

I agree buying a game the group wants to play is important, otherwise you are buying a game to read or as a collector's item. These are of course fine, and things I have done as well.

If you assume we are talking about a game that is meant to be played, your next point and my first point are actually the same minus my poor wording around 'actively opposing'. So fair point, my word selection did not reflect what I meant. I should have said and sincerely meant, not participating. I don't want any politics or agenda in my game or game material.

I have been playing apolitical games with people from all walks of life all over the political spectrum for 30 years, never injecting a political agenda into my games. It is game creators today doing that.

In fairness to what I said, I never made a premise that D&D needed to be purchased.

Quote from: Valatar on June 05, 2021, 12:54:46 AM
Just swing by Twitter whenever any well-known conservative person dies and observe all the grave-dancing going on.

Or catch a guest lecturer at Yale. 

Quote from: oggsmash on June 05, 2021, 07:13:53 PM

Quote from: Valatar on June 05, 2021, 12:54:46 AM
Just swing by Twitter whenever any well-known conservative person dies and observe all the grave-dancing going on.

Or catch a guest lecturer at Yale.

Did that.

Now - what do I do with him? What do Yale lecturers eat? /s

As to the why. I had a haircut while NPR was on the radio.
They observed that psychologically 'activism' substituted prayer in many (like 50%) of people.
Im coming at this from a group psychology angle (not a religous one). Humans have a instinctual desire to have influence over things they do not and cannot ever have.
To said people, activism occupies not the mental space of goal reaching, but PRAYER. This isn't a preferntial difference, but a religous one.

Thats why its more intense then before. You can't leave and let live if you really believe in a religeon. To a true believer christian, leaving you alone is condemming you to hell.
Same idea with the modern time.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on June 05, 2021, 07:55:06 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 05, 2021, 07:13:53 PM

Quote from: Valatar on June 05, 2021, 12:54:46 AM
Just swing by Twitter whenever any well-known conservative person dies and observe all the grave-dancing going on.

Or catch a guest lecturer at Yale.

Did that.

Now - what do I do with him? What do Yale lecturers eat? /s

I have it on good authority they can survive for quite a long time on vague promises of tenure.

Quote from: Primarch_XI on June 05, 2021, 05:14:51 PM
I think it's still kind of a false premise that you have to buy D&D at all.

Couldn't the list be:

• Buy the game your groups actively want to play
• Support those who actively oppose this shift towards wokism and nonsense

The first point is really just pragmatism as a gaming group doesn't need to be about politics first.

You are absolutely 100% right there is no reason to buy WotC's D&D. There are numerous quality fantasy RPGs on the market (even beyond the OSR).

The only point I would change is #1 to "Buy the games you really want to run" because I personally find most players mellow and/or passive and just want to have fun playing what the GM wants to run. Those players committed to only play XYZ RPG just need to find another group to their liking.

Like here's a cool free RPG that would keep a gaming group busy for the next year.
http://www.stargazergames.eu/games/warrior-rogue-mage/

Of course, I can't skip posting my favorite free RPG - MAZES & MINOTAURS - and I have run multiple campaigns with it and will do so again in the future.
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 05, 2021, 09:15:10 PM
As to the why. I had a haircut while NPR was on the radio.
They observed that psychologically 'activism' substituted prayer in many (like 50%) of people.
Im coming at this from a group psychology angle (not a religous one). Humans have a instinctual desire to have influence over things they do not and cannot ever have.
To said people, activism occupies not the mental space of goal reaching, but PRAYER. This isn't a preferntial difference, but a religous one.

Thats why its more intense then before. You can't leave and let live if you really believe in a religeon. To a true believer christian, leaving you alone is condemming you to hell.
Same idea with the modern time.

This is warning: This post is not related to RPGs. Do not continue to post off-topic political statements on the RPG forum.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 06, 2021, 08:52:55 AMThis is warning: This post is not related to RPGs. Do not continue to post off-topic political statements on the RPG forum.

Apologies. More backish to topic: I say reject the idea of IPs as something you remain 'loyal' too, and SJWs won't have an in to exploit it.

I agree to the premise of just rejecting modern D&D altogether. Let it die.

Part of the problem is that the Moral Guardians/SJWs/Woke only pretend to be loyal to something to gain a foothold and feed on it. Either scrubbing it clean of all things forbidden. Or co-opting it as an agenda platform.

It pretty much always leads to loss of sales and gradual, or sometimes fast loss of customers. Star Wars saw this really fast with the new Disney co-opting. And even stuff they had no direct hand in like Mandalorean they eventually started to co-op and purge. Or try to compete against.

With D&D and WOTC it is still a weird thing where publicly they say one thing. But in print they never back it up hardly. And I have come to believe this is deliberate to garner free advertising from misdirected outrage. How long WOTC can keep this up is anyones guess as they are well into infested and were so well ahead of the curve by the 90s iteration of this problem.

Quote from: Omega on June 07, 2021, 01:05:37 PM
Part of the problem is that the Moral Guardians/SJWs/Woke only pretend to be loyal to something to gain a foothold and feed on it. Either scrubbing it clean of all things forbidden. Or co-opting it as an agenda platform.

It pretty much always leads to loss of sales and gradual, or sometimes fast loss of customers. Star Wars saw this really fast with the new Disney co-opting. And even stuff they had no direct hand in like Mandalorean they eventually started to co-op and purge. Or try to compete against.

With D&D and WOTC it is still a weird thing where publicly they say one thing. But in print they never back it up hardly. And I have come to believe this is deliberate to garner free advertising from misdirected outrage. How long WOTC can keep this up is anyones guess as they are well into infested and were so well ahead of the curve by the 90s iteration of this problem.

The culture war mostly takes place at the level of marketing and HR. It's important to remember that.

Ultimately D&D is a game from the 70s.  We're now nearly 50 years on.  Naturally it carries a whole lot assumptions from a different time.  There is no way that D&D can actually ever be woke.  Ultimately on some level WOTC have to know that there will never not be more things for activists to dig up and find problematic.  The strategy, such as it is, is to get activitists on side, convince them that WOTC are with them and on the same side, so they are happy with a woke gloss of paint, and don't look too closely.

On that note, it seems the main strategy seems to be denigrating the TSR stuff as so very uncultured and outdated in perspective in comparison to their fine products.  Trash the source that set the standards, to show how far WotC has come and how sensitive they are.  Such a brave and bold gesture, on behalf of the RPG 'community'.  Aren't we lucky to have them spinning the marketing wheel for the hobby.

They also throw their own older stuff under the same bus which sells the ruse, legitimizing their nonsense as it's pretty obvious 5e is their meal ticket and the one that matters to their future plans.  They'll just release expansion books to 'fix' any slight problems that may exist in their flagship game and make a profit doing it.  Crafty devils.

<edit sp>

Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on June 08, 2021, 12:59:20 AM
On that note, it seems the main strategy seems to be denigrating the TSR stuff as so very uncultured and outdated in perspective in comparison to their fine products.  Trash the source that set the standards, to show how far WotC has come and how sensitive they are.  Such a brave and bold gesture, on behalf of the RPG 'community'.  Aren't we lucky to have them spinning the marketing wheel for the hobby.

They also throw their own older stuff under the same bus which sells the ruse, legitimizing their nonsense as it's pretty obvious 5e is their meal ticket and the one that matters to their future plans.  They'll just release expansion books to 'fix' any slight problems that may exist in their flagship game and make a profit doing it.  Crafty devils.

<edit sp>

That's a common pattern though. Year Zero thinking -- dismiss prior material as 'unworthy', 'problematic', etc, so that ideally it will fall by the wayside in favor of properly 'sensitive' newer stuff.

Which is a hell of a thing. I mean, yeah, you had the usual arguments about editions from 1E to 4E, but holy shit I don't think I ever met a 3E player who advocated tossing the old 2E material on a fire.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 08, 2021, 08:10:54 AM
Which is a hell of a thing. I mean, yeah, you had the usual arguments about editions from 1E to 4E, but holy shit I don't think I ever met a 3E player who advocated tossing the old 2E material on a fire.

  Well, there was that one player who posted pictures of burning his 4E books, but he was an outlier, 4E was an outlier, and I'm not sure whether it was real or not.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 08, 2021, 08:10:54 AM

Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on June 08, 2021, 12:59:20 AM
On that note, it seems the main strategy seems to be denigrating the TSR stuff as so very uncultured and outdated in perspective in comparison to their fine products.  Trash the source that set the standards, to show how far WotC has come and how sensitive they are.  Such a brave and bold gesture, on behalf of the RPG 'community'.  Aren't we lucky to have them spinning the marketing wheel for the hobby.

They also throw their own older stuff under the same bus which sells the ruse, legitimizing their nonsense as it's pretty obvious 5e is their meal ticket and the one that matters to their future plans.  They'll just release expansion books to 'fix' any slight problems that may exist in their flagship game and make a profit doing it.  Crafty devils.

<edit sp>

That's a common pattern though. Year Zero thinking -- dismiss prior material as 'unworthy', 'problematic', etc, so that ideally it will fall by the wayside in favor of properly 'sensitive' newer stuff.

Which is a hell of a thing. I mean, yeah, you had the usual arguments about editions from 1E to 4E, but holy shit I don't think I ever met a 3E player who advocated tossing the old 2E material on a fire.

Well they don't want it actually expunged.  From arguing with these people it seems they're happy for Oriental Adventures to exist in the library of congress or something like that so critical theorists can read it* as part of their phds in something or other culture.

They just don't want the plebs getting their hands on it.

*well American one's at least - but then the woke movement is extraordinarily parochial so that's par for the course.